The Status Of Irish.

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Apologies. I could have sworn that it was said that the survey by the Educational Research Center had been linked to in the opening page. Apologies for accusing you.

No problem, I wouldent try to build an argument on the back of a survey part of which seams to contradict the argument I am making, If I had It wouldent take 35 pages for people to point it out.

Regardless then, what are your opinions on the survey which has been linked and which states over 60% of people asked said they wanted the language to be optional?

As I said when letto introduced it, its an interesting result.

Unfortunately the question is somewhat vague, asking what importance people ascribe to Irish being made optional rather than if they agree with it being made optional. If I was asked what Importance I would ascribe to a proposal for Irish being made optional for the LC, Very Unimportant would not be my answer. I think it is an important issue, But I also disagree with it.

I do accept though that on balance even though the question is somewhat vague, it dose seam to suggest that the majority were in favor of Irish being made optional, what complicates things is that the same people overwhelmingly supported the Irish being given the same or greater emphasis in the education system, A seaming contradiction. It is possible that some ment that they wanted it optional for the LC but greater emphasis prior to the JC, I dont know,


So over all I think it is unfortunate that they dident include a direct question on weather or not this is what people wanted, because as it is there is some confusion as to what people wanted.

DJP

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

And we've also had links to articles which state that while many think it's important, people also think that it shouldn't be compulsory.

That's what bugs me about this entire thing. If Irish were made optional, then the individual would have the power to show if they think its important or not by choosing it. If it were made optional and people were given the choice, we could get an accurate picture of if people really did think it was important. The problem lies with the fact there are many who would likely say it is important for a variety of reasons, but if were asked to back up their words and spend some time learning it, would choose not to.

Regardless, if people thought it was important en masse, then the majority would choose to do it if given the option. That's still what this whole debate boils down to in my eyes. If people think it's important, why not give them the chance to show it in practice? I know it will probably be said "oh, but there could be negative effects", but that goes against the "people think it's important" line.

You can't believe both. It's either important to people and they will choose it when given the choice. Or they would choose something else in which case it could possibly still be seen as important, but not as important as other subjects...

I agree that is should be optional for Leaving Cert even though I interviewed a woman from CONCOS yesterday on my programme on NeaFM and a fella from Guth na Gaeltachta ("Voice of the Gaeltacht") last week who said it would have a negative effects in terms of numbers of students going to the Gaeltacht every year. And the Gaeltachtaí are largely poor regions. Even my Mother and sister- who is an Irish teacher- think it should stay required. I disagree though. The argument made by cyclopath2001 that it should be optional throughout second level is totally unrealistic though. I bet he could not get one national politician to agree with him.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

IN SPITE OF IT BEING THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY

dic·ta·to·ri·al
Having or showing a tendency to tell people what to do in an autocratic way

ex·trem·ist
a supporter or advocate of extreme doctrines or practices.

Your point is what exactly, Cú Giobach?

This is getting ridiculus. I have answered the question, While I accept that if FG win the election They will most likely change Irish to an Optional subject I dont have to agree with it.

That is my opinion, I am entitled to it.

What more do you want?

Lord TSC

Unfortunately the question is somewhat vague, asking what importance people ascribe to Irish being made optional rather than if they agree with it being made optional. If I was asked what Importance I would ascribe to a proposal for Irish being made optional for the LC, Very Unimportant would not be my answer. I think it is an important issue, But I also disagree with it.

I do accept though that on balance even though the question is somewhat vague, it dose seam to suggest that the majority were in favor of Irish being made optional, what complicates things is that the same people overwhelmingly supported the Irish being given the same or greater emphasis in the education system, A seaming contradiction. It is possible that some ment that they wanted it optional for the LC but greater emphasis prior to the JC, I dont know,


So over all I think it is unfortunate that they dident include a direct question on weather or not this is what people wanted, because as it is there is some confusion as to what people wanted.

See though, that's the same problem people have been discussing with most of the pro-Irish links. The questions tend to be ambigious and indirect; "Is Irish important to you" is rarely going to get a strong NO for an answer. I, personally, believe that the question on making it optional was one of the most direct so far, but I can see where you are coming from.

I agree that is should be optional for Leaving Cert even though I interviewed a woman from CONCOS yesterday on my programme on NeaFM and a fella from Guth na Gaeltachta ("Voice of the Gaeltacht") last week who said it would have a negative effects in terms of numbers of students going to the Gaeltacht every year. And the Gaeltachtaí are largely poor regions. Even my Mother and sister- who is an Irish teacher- think it should stay required. I disagree though. The argument made by cyclopath2001 that it should be optional throughout second level is totally unrealistic though. I bet he could not get one national politician to agree with him.

Again, I can feel for the people in the Gaeltacht who would see their one tourist draw hurt by the optionalisation of Irish. But at the same time, I'm also of the opinion that you shouldn't be forcing people to do something they don't want to do so a small minority can get some money. I also think that goes back to the artifical jobs point; there's jobs which rely on the teaching of compulsory Irish which are only there because Irish is compulsory.

And please. It's election time. I'm pretty sure if I asked a politician could he make me Mayor of Drogheda, he'd say he could if it meant getting my vote :P

And again I say, I do think the main debate should be focused on the LC course, since (at least in my experience), there's no real choice until you finish your JC anyway. It would be, as someone pointed out, somewhat foolish to make it optional at JC when the vast majority of subjects are compulsory anyway.

Focalbhach

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

See though, that's the same problem people have been discussing with most of the pro-Irish links. The questions tend to be ambigious and indirect; "Is Irish important to you" is rarely going to get a strong NO for an answer. I, personally, believe that the question on making it optional was one of the most direct so far, but I can see where you are coming from.

FWIW, while not necessarily agreeing with the conclusion, I'd tend to follow the same reasoning as deise on this:

deise go deo wrote:

Unfortunately the question is somewhat vague... If I was asked what Importance I would ascribe to a proposal for Irish being made optional for the LC, Very Unimportant would not be my answer. I think it is an important issue, But I also disagree with it.

I would interpret the question in the same way - is it important to consider whether a change would be beneficial?, rather than should we change?

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The argument made by cyclopath2001 that it should be optional throughout second level is totally unrealistic though. I bet he could not get one national politician to agree with him.

That depends on how it is explained to people and if lessons more relevant to pupils needs are offered.

Conradh itself is not immune to the effects of the recession and may soon have to leave its recently renovated HQ and move to lower cost accomodation in Meath.

Support for Irish is not what it used to be.

Lord TSC

Looking at the question though, it is pretty direct.

The table shows the percentage of people who responded to a series of proposals . The proposal of making Irish an optional subject after the JC were marked on a scale.

It wasn't, as I think you're saying, a question of "should the topic of Irish being optional be discussed." It was "How important do you think it is that Irish be optional". It's not ambigious in the slightest...

Cú Giobach

Leto wrote: »

I'm going to pre-empt Cú here:

:rolleyes:

I only do that when he quotes me.
I respond to every quote, or comment about me but don't engage certain people in discussion.

Focalbhach

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Looking at the question though, it is pretty direct.

The table shows the percentage of people who responded to a series of proposals . The proposal of making Irish an optional subject after the JC were marked on a scale.

It wasn't, as I think you're saying, a question of "should the topic of Irish being optional be discussed." It was "How important do you think it is that Irish be optional". It's not ambigious in the slightest...

I see what you're saying - I'm not at all sure what the question means - but it is ambiguous, and the source of the ambiguity is the word 'importance' in the question. Why is it the 'importance' of the proposal, rather than 'agreement' with the proposal? People weren't asked whether they agreed or not that Irish should be optional, they were asked about the importance of the proposal. I can't call that direct.

marienbad

deise go deo wrote: »

No problem, I wouldent try to build an argument on the back of a survey part of which seams to contradict the argument I am making, If I had It wouldent take 35 pages for people to point it out.




As I said when letto introduced it, its an interesting result.

Unfortunately the question is somewhat vague, asking what importance people ascribe to Irish being made optional rather than if they agree with it being made optional. If I was asked what Importance I would ascribe to a proposal for Irish being made optional for the LC, Very Unimportant would not be my answer. I think it is an important issue, But I also disagree with it.

I do accept though that on balance even though the question is somewhat vague, it dose seam to suggest that the majority were in favor of Irish being made optional, what complicates things is that the same people overwhelmingly supported the Irish being given the same or greater emphasis in the education system, A seaming contradiction. It is possible that some ment that they wanted it optional for the LC but greater emphasis prior to the JC, I dont know,


So over all I think it is unfortunate that they dident include a direct question on weather or not this is what people wanted, because as it is there is some confusion as to what people wanted.

That is why I was saying about 15 pages back that these surveys bring nothing to the discussion. Asking people if they are in favour of irish is the same as asking if we are in favour of eliminating poverty or global warming. Everybody allways is ,that is until they have to do something , that it becomes in favour but... maybe next week. generation after generation have said one thing and done the opposite.

It is time we decided issues on what we do rather than what we say we want to do , and after 80 years where the number of Irish language Speakers has declined from ....... to.........( Cu -figures please) something different has to be tried.

Lord TSC

I see what you're saying - I'm not at all sure what the question means - but it is ambiguous, and the source of the ambiguity is the word 'importance' in the question. Why is it the 'importance' of the proposal, rather than 'agreement' with the proposal? People weren't asked whether they agreed or not that Irish should be optional, they were asked about the importance of the proposal. I can't call that direct.

They were asked if they thought it was important that Irish be made optional after the JC. That's pretty direct.

later12

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

They were asked if they thought it was important that Irish be made optional after the JC. That's pretty direct.

In fairness to the poster, no it isn't.

The question assumes that the importance of the debate surrounding the compulsory nature of the taught subject is somehow equal to the magnitude of the opinion in favour of or against the question of Irish being compulsory.

I think Irish should be optional after the junior certificate. Nevertheless, do I think it is important that it be made optional after that stage? Of course not.

See what I mean? The question is poorly worded.

Lord TSC

later10 wrote: »

In fairness to the poster, no it isn't.

The question assumes that the importance of the debate surrounding the compulsory nature of the taught subject is somehow equal to the magnitude of the opinion in favour of or against the question of Irish being compulsory.

I think Irish should be optional after the junior certificate. Nevertheless, do I think it is important that it be made optional after that stage? Of course not.

See what I mean? The question is poorly worded.

I really don't, to be blunt.

As I see it, they asked.

How important is it that the following procedures are introduced....
1. Blah.
2. Blah.
3. Blah

And so on. People were asked is it important to be made optional. People replied. Straight forward.

Surely your last statement would mean that some of those who said "no, it's not important" would thus also be happy if it was, just that they didn't think it was hugely important?

later12

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I really don't, to be blunt.

I think the distinction is pretty clear to most people.

I think that the school day should be an hour longer.
Do I think that's important? No. A real issue? No.

Surely your last statement would mean that some of those who said "no, it's not important" would thus also be happy if it was, just that they didn't think it was hugely important?

Of course.

Like I said, it's a poorly worded question, regardless of which side you agree with.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That depends on how it is explained to people and if lessons more relevant to pupils needs are offered.

Conradh itself is not immune to the effects of the recession and may soon have to leave its recently renovated HQ and move to lower cost accomodation in Meath.

Really? Do you have a link for that? I hadent heard that before.

compaqlaptop1

deise go deo wrote: »

I do accept though that on balance even though the question is somewhat vague, it dose seam to suggest that the majority were in favor of Irish being made optional, what complicates things is that the same people overwhelmingly supported the Irish being given the same or greater emphasis in the education system, A seaming contradiction. It is possible that some ment that they wanted it optional for the LC but greater emphasis prior to the JC, I dont know,


So over all I think it is unfortunate that they dident include a direct question on weather or not this is what people wanted, because as it is there is some confusion as to what people wanted.

later10 wrote: »

In fairness to the poster, no it isn't.

The question assumes that the importance of the debate surrounding the compulsory nature of the taught subject is somehow equal to the magnitude of the opinion in favour of or against the question of Irish being compulsory.

The question's intention was to get the % of people who believed Irish should be optional after JC, it wasn't to see how important people believe the discussion on it being compulsory was.

Your points about the question be amiguous can be disregarded as the survey goes through the results before showing the table of statistics. And in relation to that question it says -

The statements that attracted the least support (though the majorities still favoured them) were to make Irish an optional subject after the Junior Certificate Examination (66.8%) and to provide new subjects at Leaving Certificate level (71.9%).

So this report shows that the majority, 66.8% of the Irish public want it optional after the junior cert. And another 17.2% either have no opinion or dont think it's an important issue. So that leaves 15.9% left who want it to remain compulsory.

Deise go deo you were using this report to say that the majority of people would like Irish to stay compulsory and maintain the status quo, so now that it has been cleared up and has been shown that the majority want Irish to be optional, by a margin of 4 to 1, are you prepared to accept the will of the majority and agree that Irish should be optional after the junior cert?

deise go deo

compaqlaptop1 wrote: »

The question's intention was to get the % of people who believed Irish should be optional after JC, it wasn't to see how important people believe the discussion on it being compulsory was.

Your points about the question be amiguous can be disregarded as the survey goes through the results before showing the table of statistics. And in relation to that question it says -

So this report shows that the majority, 66.8% of the Irish public want it optional after the junior cert. And another 17.2% either have no opinion or dont think it's an important issue. So that leaves 15.9% left who want it to remain compulsory.

I believe that that question was quite vague, several posters have agreed with me, weather you think it is or not, the fact that several posters have come to the same conclusion suggests that others, those answering the poll may have felt the same.

I think that it is a falicy to suggest that the 15.9 are those who support compulsion remaining, Given the fact that the same group of people overwhelmingly supported the same or greater emphasis for Irish then 15.9 being in favor of compulsion simply dosent add up. I think you are choosing to see what you want to see and ignoring what dosent suit you.

Deise go deo you were using this report to say that the majority of people would like Irish to stay compulsory and maintain the status quo, so now that it has been cleared up and has been shown that the majority want Irish to be optional, by a margin of 4 to 1, are you prepared to accept the will of the majority and agree that Irish should be optional after the junior cert?

This is untrue, a poster has already apologized to me for making this accusation, I disagree with your interpretation of the poll results

I have already answered the question and will not be repeating myself again.

Dannyboy83

Cú Giobach wrote: »

My point is WTF has my opinion got to with Deise.

c'mon now, Cú, it's pretty obvious in fairness.:rolleyes:

You believe that Cyclopath must accept the will of the majority.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69607166&postcount=688

Do you also believe that must Deise accept the will of the majorty?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69613809&postcount=740

If not, why?
Just a case of some animals are more equal than others?;)

Oasis_Dublin

So it's agreed then, Compulsory Irish for all based on the will of the majority. Gotta love democracy.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

This is getting ridiculus.

What is ridiculous is that this is now my fifth time asking you this question today and you still cower from it.

I have answered the question, While I accept that if FG win the election They will most likely change Irish to an Optional subject I dont have to agree with it.

That is my opinion, I am entitled to it.

What more do you want?

What more do I want?
Just for you to answer the question.

The will of the majority is that Irish be optional at LC Level.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69607166&postcount=688
Are you prepared to accept the will of the majority?

Yes or No?

Dannyboy83

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

So it's agreed then, Compulsory Irish for all based on the will of the majority. Gotta love democracy.

If that's the will of the majority, it's fine by me.:)
I requested a survey to show this was the case.
The evidence offered suggested a different outcome, i.e. that the will of the majority will that Irish be compulsory until Junior Cert.
I would prefer it to be entirely optional at second level, and in spite of my personal preference, I will agree to the will of the democratic majority.

I think upholding the wishes of the democratic majority is the fairest approach for all concerned.

Certainly far more fair and sensible than being subservient to CnaG and upholding their autocratic demands.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If not, why?
Just a case of some animals are more equal than others?;)

Before this goes any further I would like to state that I resent the comparison to a cartoon metaphor for Stalin.



If anything I feel more like the horse after this thread. To weary to go on with the drudgery.:P

Oasis_Dublin

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If that's the will of the majority, it's fine by me.:)
I requested a survey to show this was the case.
The evidence offered suggested a different outcome, i.e. that the will of the majority will that Irish be compulsory until Junior Cert.
I would prefer it to be entirely optional at second level, and in spite of my personal preference, I will agree to the will of the democratic majority.

I think upholding the wishes of the democratic majority is the fairest approach for all concerned.

Certainly far more fair and sensible than being subservient to CnaG and upholding their autocratic demands.

I'm interested, as someone who believes Irish should be reformed and kept as compulsory as Leaving Cert English is, in reading the evidence which suggests the majority want the compulsion taken away. Is there a poll or is it just the will of those on this site? I'm genuinely far too lazy to go through all the posts on this topic to find out.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What is ridiculous is that this is now my fifth time asking you this question today and you still cower from it.



What more do I want?
Just for you to answer the question.

The will of the majority is that Irish be optional at LC Level.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69607166&postcount=688
Are you prepared to accept the will of the majority?

Yes or No?

I am far from satisfied that you have even come close to showing that Irish being made optional is 'The will of the Majority'

I have answered the question, I accept that if FG form the next government then they will most likely make Irish an optional subject.

I dont have to agree with it, Do I?

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

I am far from satisfied that you have even come close to showing that Irish being made optional is 'The will of the Majority'

I have answered the question, I accept that if FG form the next government then they will most likely make Irish an optional subject.

I dont have to agree with it, Do I?

I'm not talking about the next government.
I'm not asking you to agree with it - I'm asking you a simple question.

The survey suggests the will of the majority is that Irish be made optional post JC.

The statements that attracted the least support (though the majorities still favoured them) were to make Irish an optional subject after the Junior Certificate Examination (66.8%) and to provide new subjects at Leaving Certificate level (71.9%).

Will you accept the will of the majority?
I'm not asking you to qualify it, it's a simple answer:
Yes or No?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Will you accept the will of the majority?
I'm not asking you to qualify it, it's a simple answer:
Yes or No?

Yes i will accept the right of the majority to have their Will implemented, or Yes I will change my opinion on the basis of the 'will of the majority'?

Which is it you are looking for?

Oasis_Dublin

Apologies for not keeping up here but may I have some context put onto that quote please? It attracted the least support, but still a majority? What attracted the most support?

deise go deo

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Apologies for not keeping up here but may I have some context put onto that quote please? It attracted the least support, but still a majority? What attracted the most support?

The quote is from a survey on what people want to happen with the education system. The question was not 'Do you agree with Irish being made optional' but rather, 'what importance do you attach to a proposal being put forward that Irish be made optional'.

As it was a question on the Importance people attach to the issue and not if they agree with it or not, the question is somewhat vague, coupled with the fact that an overwhelming majority said that they wanted the same emphasis as now maintained on Irish in the education system or for that emphasis to increase, it is not at all clear what people wanted to happen Irish in the education system.

There were a list of other issues that people were asked to attach importance to, Im not sure but I think reducing class size received the highest importance.



Danny boy, My post was a question not an answer, Which statement is the one you are looking for?

robbyvibes

The Irish are pathetic useless ****.

Robbievibes banned for trolling