The Status Of Irish.

thisisadamh

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I definitely think there is a certain element of 'looking down one's nose' from those who are quite líofa at the language.

Agree completely, when I went to the Gaeltacht, people looked down on you for not knowing simple things and not being able to pronounce words etc. This one guy said to me "you irish is c**p" which I did not take too well to. Well give a South African a break, at least I tried.

Dannyboy83

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'll ask you again,
Why on earth would or should someone say or agree to something just because that is my opinion??

Read back my previous post, I already explained it to you.

I wasn't expecting him to agree to your opinion - who says your opinion is correct??
You haven't been able to justify reasons for compulsory Irish either, just stated that it's your opinion.

But -- Nobody, especially Deise, can claim that you 'hate' Irish.
I don't hate Irish, I like Irish, but I hate compulsion, but it's a sly generalisation which has been thrown at the anti-compulsion side that we are anti-Irish.

Now, you are evidently pro-irish and you are pro-compulsion until JC level.
That is your personal opinion. A personal opinion decided by you, as opposed to an opinion dictated to you by CnaG, which you dictate to others.

And it's a moderate opinion. A moderate opinion as opposed to an extremist position.

By contrasting you to Deise, two people on the pro-compulsion side, I was able to demonstrate that you are moderate and Deise is extremist.

Now Deise has acknowleged that he would accept the will of the majority so I will withdraw the dictatorial remark I made about him.

But you asked me why I kept invoking your argument.
I didn't.
I repeated the same question, FIVE TIMES, because deise refused to answer it.;)

Oasis_Dublin

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't hate Irish, I like Irish, but I hate compulsion, but it's a sly generalisation which has been thrown at the anti-compulsion side that we are anti-Irish.

I know this point has been made already but what about the other 2 compulsory subjects at Leaving Certificate level? I don't need Shakespeare, Antarctic or advanced Trigonometry in life, I'm still forced to do them. Why should Irish be any different? Irish is something distinctly ours. Of course people should be proud of their heritage.

You're also a bit hung up on this fear of being labelled anti-Irish... which is only fair, ya West-Brit! (joke)

Dannyboy83

thisisadamh wrote: »

Agree completely, when I went to the Gaeltacht, people looked down on you for not knowing simple things and not being able to pronounce words etc. This one guy said to me "you irish is c**p" which I did not take too well to. Well give a South African a break, at least I tried.

Ignore him, probably just an arsehole, they exist in among every nation, race and language - not a reason to write off Irish or be discouraged.
I work with two native Irish speakers (both of whom are fluent in French;)).
I've never gotten this attitude from them, the opposite. Always found them very encouraging. I'm not prepared to invest my time in learning it because I have no use for it, but if you are, find a nice, sexy woman speaking Irish for yourself, can't beat it:D

Believe me, I came across plenty of that attitude you spoke of when I was learning Polish - people bursting out laughing at you - would have been easy to pack it in.
It was strange for them, to hear an outsider learning their language because people don't frequently do it, whereas when I'm learning Russian, people don't humiliate you, they just help you, they're accustomed to people learning the language, same as English - we're accustomed to people of all nationalities learning English.
I think some people just don't know how to react when they hear an adult speaking their language like a child might. And other people are just cnuts unfortunately, regardless of the language they speak. Don't let them discourage you from learning the language, if that is what you want to do.

oasis_dublin wrote:

This is an idea I've mentioned before, totally agree with it. Cleachtadh, cleachtadh agus tuilleadh cleachtadh, sin an rud níos tábhachtach le haigheadh an téanga an sábhail. People are intimidated by the Irish language and I definitely think there is a certain element of 'looking down one's nose' from those who are quite líofa at the language.

Totally agree with you here, practice and get stuck in.
We spent years studying the theory of Irish and rote learning.
The only conversation I ever recall having in Irish was for my leaving cert exam.
Forgive the crappy analogy, but it'd be like studying the rules of the road for 14 years, to sit a 20min driving test, and then never having the opportunity to see a car again.

As regards the condescension from fluent speakers, as I said, I haven't been on the receiving end from native speakers, but I've did get this attitude from people who spoke it as a second language tho, primarily from people in Education.

Can't recall if I already shared this anecdote in the thread, but a relative of mine in the civil service was telling me about the time a teacher wrote a formal letter of complaint about the appalling level of Irish spoken by the member of staff who had served.
The same teacher, by now very red faced, withdrew the complaint when it emerged the woman who had served her was a native speaker from the Gaelteacht.;)

Some of the lads at college went to try out the Irish groups and in the end came to the conclusion that the most insufferable people had been appointed so as to scare away newcomers and pocket the money for themselves:pac:

I'm not sure what it is about Irish teachers, but I generally found them very arrogant and condescending. And every single one of them was either an ongoing or a recovering alcoholic. FPMSL!

I often wonder if Irish teachers are advised to teach like this - perhaps that's the problem. My English teacher for the LC was also an Irish teacher.
He was an outstanding English teacher (when he wasn't drunk that is) and I ended up reading Shakespeare in my own time because I got so interested in it. I literally detested Shakespeare in the Junior Cert, post leaving I went out and bought his entire works.
When it came to teaching Irish, the man was a fcuking liability, unbelievably aggressive bully.

Dannyboy83

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I know this point has been made already but what about the other 2 compulsory subjects at Leaving Certificate level? I don't need Shakespeare, Antarctic or advanced Trigonometry in life, I'm still forced to do them. Why should Irish be any different?

I agree that you don't need them.
I've already said several times throughout this thread that they should also be optional.
If you're gonna be a hairdresser - why would you need advanced Trigonometry? You wouldn't!
It's senseless.

Why compel someone who doesn't give a sh1te about it to do it?
It's utterly senseless in my honest opinion.
That type of education system discriminates and excludes people.
It should aim to include as many people as possible.

If you plan to be an engineer, you will need Maths- but you'll be studying that in college so it's a pre-requisite to entry anyway!

As I said, I studied Computer Science, so we had a lot of Maths involved, Calculus, Discrete Maths, Advanced Statistics etc.
What we basically did was refresh the Hons LC course and cover a little bit more. I think Maths badly needs to be reformed (it's a decade ago now, so maybe it has been in fairness).
One of the lads was going into some film making stuff and he used to say all he could think about when the teacher was doing maths was porno. He simply had no interest in it at all. I think he actually failed foundation level Maths.
Horse to water and all that...

English - I was lucky that I had a decent teacher (when he wasn't drunk), I started out hating it but then really enjoyed the course and got an A2. I found some of the stuff I learned to be very useful post education.
Some of the lads really hated it tho.
The net gain for them was ZERO.
A lot of them knew they'd be training to be a mechanic or something, so they just had to endure it - they could have done something which benefited them and which they'd enjoy! They held the class back because of fcuk arsing around when they were bored to death. They should have been excused. Senseless.
So again, I agree, it should be optional.

Irish is something distinctly ours. Of course people should be proud of their heritage.

Yea sure, I can agree with that.
We probably have different concepts of what proud is - personally I find Nationalism a retarded concept.
I met enough Brits to know that a lot of them are among the nicest people on the planet, and some of them are also the nastiest. It's a stupid (if convenient) tag.

I can still be proud of Munster without needing to give a sh1te about Rugby - I actually find the game incredibly boring, to play and watch.

You can believe in God with believing in organised religion or attending church.

You can be proud of Irish and your heritage, without having to learn it and speak it.
Sher how many Americans are proud of being an American even tho they can't quite point it out on a map?;)

Believe me, I like the language.
But I'm not going to invest my time in learning it because I'm a pragmatist, life is short and I've too many things I want to do and need to do. If other people wish to learn it, more power to them, I'm not going to stand in their way.
If people are learning it because of some Nationalist ideals, I think that's wrong, but I don't really give a sh1te as long they don't try to dictate to me what to do.

And if my kids decide to learn it, that's their choice - but I want it to be their choice. In particular at second level.

You're also a bit hung up on this fear of being labelled anti-Irish... which is only fair, ya West-Brit! (joke)

LOL:D
To be honest, I consider myself to be pretty damn fair minded which is why I resent the anti-Irish tag so much. I'm not arguing against Irish, I'm arguing FOR fairness. We all have Free Will, and outside certain constraints, we should be allowed to exercise it.
I really don't want to stand in the way of anyone learning Irish or anything else. I just want people to be allowed to choose for themselves.

This pretty much sums up my approach to life, sexuality, abortion, religion and whatever else:
It's good when people decide what they want to do themselves.
It's not so good when other people dictate to them what they must do.

An obvious constaint/exception is democracy.
You have to observe and uphold the will of the majority, even if you disagree - which is your right - because otherwise the whole system comes crashing down and we lose everything.

If this thread was about compulsory Maths or compulsory English or compulsory Swahili, I would still be on the anti-compulsion side.

I'm anti-compulsion Irish and I'm anti-compulsion.
My life experience has proven to me that when people do what they want to do, they tend to be much happier and more productive than when they are dictated to.

Oasis_Dublin

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As regards the condescension from fluent speakers, as I said, I haven't been on the receiving end from native speakers, but I've did get this attitude from people who spoke it as a second language tho, primarily from people in Education.

I've received it from both natives, out in Connemara, and from Dubliners. To be fair to the Galwegians, they were more having the craic than trying to put me down but there was still an air of, "ah sure fair play to the Jack, he's doing well for one of them."

Those who did well at Irish at school tended to be the kinds of people who would have a go at you for forgetting a séimhiú after "ag an" but they would never have a go at the lads who said "I seen the match last night" or "I done my homework just there." It was this insistence on putting down those who would have a go at Irish that wrecked my head.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Can't recall if I already shared this anecdote in the thread, but a relative of mine in the civil service was telling me about the time a teacher wrote a formal letter of complaint about the appalling level of Irish spoken by the member of staff who had served.
The same teacher, by now very red faced, withdrew the complaint when it emerged the woman who had served her was a native speaker from the Gaelteacht.;)

Haha, that is a perfect example!

Oasis_Dublin

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yea sure, I can agree with that.
We probably have different concepts of what proud is - personally I find Nationalism a retarded concept.
I met enough Brits to know that a lot of them are among the nicest people on the planet, and some of them are also the nastiest. It's a stupid (if convenient) tag.

Being a Nationalist is not about hating "da brits"; that's more of a militant Republican phenomenon (you know the lads who wear Celtic jerseys but hate the Brits!). I like Britain, I speak English far more often than I speak Irish, a large proportion of my favourite bands come from Britain, I've been to watch soccer matches in Britain, I watch MOTD if I'm home on saturday nights etc. I just like having a national identity more than, "I'm Irish, I drink a lot and I elect woeful politicians over and over again. I hate immigrants but I expect other countries to take me in when my economy slows down." I feel the language plays an important part in this identity, tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I can still be proud of Munster without needing to give a sh1te about Rugby - I actually find the game incredibly boring, to play and watch.

I see your point yeah but there is more to culture than just sport. I wouldn't need to love the Dubs to be a "proper" Dubliner for example. I consider Nationalism a whole island things and not a regional thing.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You can be proud of Irish and your heritage, without having to learn it and speak it.

And if my kids decide to learn it, that's their choice - but I want it to be their choice. In particular at second level.

I'm still not so sure.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If this thread was about compulsory Maths or compulsory English or compulsory Swahili, I would still be on the anti-compulsion side.

I'm anti-compulsion Irish and I'm anti-compulsion.
My life experience has proven to me that when people do what they want to do, they tend to be much happier and more productive than when they are dictated to.

Maybe an English-style A-Levels idea is the best way forward?

Cú Giobach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Read back my previous post, I already explained it to you.

I wasn't expecting him to agree to your opinion - who says your opinion is correct??
You haven't been able to justify reasons for compulsory Irish either, just stated that it's your opinion.

No, you just asked him,
if I can say something, why can't he. As I said, not the best of questions.


Most people on this Island feel Irish is important enough to have as a compulsory subject in school, that is good enough for me. And before anyone asks for the inevitable proof, I am only going on things I have heard over my....well lets say over 40 years of talking to people from all walks of life (I don't "demand" written proof of the attitudes of people to decide my opinions).

I'm anti-compulsion Irish and I'm anti-compulsion.
My life experience has proven to me that when people do what they want to do, they tend to be much happier and more productive than when they are dictated to.

I wonder how many people have the career now that they would have liked when they were 10 years old, (I don't see the country overran with firemen, popstars, supermodels or train drivers).
Wouldn't it be an interesting world if 10 year olds were able to decide what to learn in school, and if you are going to say their parents would decide, then we are back to "being dictated to" or if they ask their kids what they want, we are back to 10 year olds making a decision they are not old or mature enough to decide.
A "level playing field" is the best way to explain the necessity of the present system.


Just a comment on this business of people correcting other peoples Irish.
My response to someone if they do that to me is "Oh, so you aren't a native speaker then", while feigning surprise,
because this is something that is common with people who have learned a second language and not when someone has it as their mother tongue (hence why people don't correct each others English).
Native speakers of a language are automatically concentrating on understanding what you are saying and forming a response, not your grammar.
This is not something to do with an "attitude" towards people regarding Irish and is common across the human race in general and with all languages.
This is also a very good reason why people should actually be a lot more confident trying to use what Irish they have with a native speaker, unfortunately people often feel the opposite.

Lord TSC

I wonder how many people have the career now that they would have liked when they were 10 years old, (I don't see the country overran with firemen, popstars, supermodels or train drivers).
Wouldn't it be an interesting world if 10 year olds were able to decide what to learn in school, and if you are going to say their parents would decide, then we are back to "being dictated to" or if they ask their kids what they want, we are back to 10 year olds making a decision they are not old or mature enough to decide.
A "level playing field" is the best way to explain the necessity of the present system.

What about at LC level though? What about making the choice on what subjects they want to do for the LC when they are being asked to choose their subjects anyway? What about simply offering the choice to them when they are older and being asked to choose subjects which will benifit their choice of what college courses they shall be doing?

Cú Giobach

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What about at LC level though? What about making the choice on what subjects they want to do for the LC when they are being asked to choose their subjects anyway? What about simply offering the choice to them when they are older and being asked to choose subjects which will benifit their choice of what college courses they shall be doing?

I made my opinion on the LC quite clear earlier.

Lord TSC

Its just you seem to be implying the anti-compulsion crew are trying to get it completly optional, when I think at this stage, we've said that we're focusing on the LC course. <_<

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Most people on this Island feel Irish is important enough to have as a compulsory subject in school, that is good enough for me. And before anyone asks for the inevitable proof, I am only going on things I have heard over my....well lets say over 40 years of talking to people from all walks of life (I don't "demand" written proof of the attitudes of people to decide my opinions).

Cú Giobach heard what he wanted to hear (in a pub?) and this has reinforced his out-dated attitudes built up over 40 years. The fact that Irish language education policy has failed is irrelevant to him.

After 80 years of massive expenditure and senseless compulsion, the Irish langauge project has obviously failed to meet its objectives. We're now in an economic crisis, partly due to having wasted money on idiotic projects such as changing the common langauge from English back to Irish.

It's time to stop wasting time and money. New thinking is needed, Cu Giobach (who ignores any unpleasant people who challenge his deeply-held beliefs) wants to continue this waste. He represents a past that we must reject.

We should re-examine the goals and set a budget comensurate with what is desirable & achievable to preserve and promote the language. For a start, by limiting expenditure to teaching those who wish to learn the language.

Cú Giobach

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Its just you seem to be implying the anti-compulsion crew are trying to get it completly optional, when I think at this stage, we've said that we're focusing on the LC course. <_<

Some are, some aren't. (note rant post above)

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Cú Giobach heard what he wanted to hear (in a pub?) and this has reinforced his out-dated attitudes built up over 40 years. The fact that Irish language education policy has failed is irrelevant to him.

After 80 years of massive expenditure and senseless compulsion, the Irish langauge project has obviously failed to meet its objectives. We're now in an economic crisis, partly due to having wasted money on idiotic projects such as changing the common langauge from English back to Irish.

It's time to stop wasting time and money. New thinking is needed, Cu Giobach (who ignores any unpleasant people who challenge his deeply-held beliefs) wants to continue this waste. He represents a past that we must reject.

:rolleyes:

(who ignores any unpleasant people who challenge his deeply-held beliefs)

No, just you, because (as was said earlier) of your OCD like compulsion with this topic, and personal rants.

Edit:
I've just put you on ignore so I don't have to "hear you yapping away in my ear" and because I know exactly what you are going to say in every post (the same stuff you have been saying for months now, over and over again). First time ever done that on this board.
So yap away

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Edit:
I've just put you on ignore so I don't have to "hear you yapping away in my ear" and because I know exactly what you are going to say in every post (the same stuff you have been saying for months now, over and over again). First time ever done that on this board.
So yap away

Proof, if any is needed of the kind of ignorant opposition there is to reform of Irish language policy - claiming general support for compulsory Irish lessons based on "what I've heard over 40 years" and refusing to consider whether or not it's a sound way to promote the language.

The only way I can think of to bring closed-minded Irish language lobbyists like Cú Giobach to the negotiating table is to cut funding. This is a very real possibility when CnaG's political brother, Fianna Fail is sent into the political wilderness.

Alternatively, maybe, the language can be saved by younger, open minds?

DJP

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Alternatively, maybe, the language can be saved by younger, open minds?

Yea most people may believe that it should be optional for the Leaving Cert but most people will never agree that it should be optional for Junior Cert. I am not surprised he put you on ignore. I think I will also.

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Yea most people may believe that it should be optional for the Leaving Cert but most people will never agree that it should be optional for Junior Cert. I am not surprised he put you on ignore. I think I will also.

This is so you will never have to justify forcing non Irish speakers to speak Irish. It is quite understandable, its an indefensible position to be in.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I
It was strange for them, to hear an outsider learning their language because people don't frequently do it, whereas when I'm learning Russian, people don't humiliate you, they just help you, they're accustomed to people learning the language, same as English - we're accustomed to people of all nationalities learning English.
.

Yeerrr, I'm learning Russian too

I agree with your post though, Irish shouldn't be compulsory same with maths and English.

The choice should be the students.

Oasis_Dublin

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is so you will never have to justify forcing non Irish speakers to speak Irish. It is quite understandable, its an indefensible position to be in.

With all due respect, in the most unboardsworthy language, you're a numpty Deputy cyclopath2001! You're a numpty!... It is most unboardsworthy language and I now withdraw it and apologise for it but I am outraged that someone dares question the compulsion of Irish at JC level. It's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Iwasfrozen

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

With all due respect, in the most unboardsworthy language, you're a numpty Deputy cyclopath2001! You're a numpty!... It is most unboardsworthy language and I now withdraw it and apologise for it but I am outraged that someone dares question the compulsion of Irish at JC level. It's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Now steady on there Oasis I know you're upset but language like that is uncalled for. In any case why do you dismiss the possibility of Irish becoming optional at JC level?

Oasis_Dublin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Now steady on there Oasis I know you're upset but language like that is uncalled for. In any case why do you dismiss the possibility of Irish becoming optional at JC level?

I just don't see it having much support. Even amongst my friends who took Irish at pass level for the LC, none of them wanted to stop doing Irish for good. Even amongst those in favour of removing the compulsion here on this thread, most still agree that it should be compulsory up to JC level.

If anyone here ends up with children, you'll be thankful for the Gaeltacht in order to get rid of the little sh*ts for 3 weeks!

DJP

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is so you will never have to justify forcing non Irish speakers to speak Irish. It is quite understandable, its an indefensible position to be in.

It is our national language. See our constitution. Answer to you question.

Lord TSC

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

It is our national language. See our constitution. Answer to you question.

Its technically our national language, but in reality, everyone speaks English bar a small minority, and everything from TV to papers to food wrappers are in English. Surely we should be dealing with reality as opposed to what is said on a piece of paper written in a bygone era...

(NOTE: not that I'm arguing for it to be made optional at JC; since kids do, what...11 subjects? So long as there's at least one European language there and a wide spread, I think the system is working. At that stage, we should make sure they have as many doors open to them as possible before they decide which to go through during LC studies. I just think the constituion answer is a poor one...)

Oasis_Dublin

That article of the Constitution is as relevant now as the day the fuhrer published it back in 1937.

cyclopath2001

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

That article of the Constitution is as relevant now as the day the fuhrer published it back in 1937.

Its been updated a few times to take account of changes in attitudes, for example, the special position of the Catholic Church. While the constitution ranks Irish above English, there is nothing in the constitution obliging people to learn Irish.

DJP

And until it is the will of the people to change is as you would like there will be no change. The majority has spoken. You should join Reform although even they may find you argument pretty far gone.

Lord TSC

If you really think that it's the will of the majority to have compulsory Irish, then I am afraid there's little more to be said in this conversation.

eddyc

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

And until it is the will of the people to change is as you would like there will be no change. The majority has spoken. You should join Reform although even they may find you argument pretty far gone.

Where is the mass outrage that after 80 years the amount of native speakers is declining, the outrage about the crappy way the language is thought in our schools, if people really cared about the language surely something would have been done a long time ago to improve its standard of teaching, instead of people supporting the language, judging by their actions people seem to be completely apathetic about it.

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The majority has spoken.

.......English.

Oasis_Dublin

"Native speakers of English" need to learn the difference between thought and taught!

Monty Burnz

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I never signed up to Irish and there is no way I could have stopped doing it in Primary School, when I absolutely hated it. I was still forced to do it in Secondary School but by 5th or 6th I had great respect for the language. By being "forced" to do it, I gained a respect for the language.

By being forced to do it, I lost a lot of respect for it.

The fact that at least 90% of people in the Republic could not follow this conversation if it were in Irish should tell you all you need to know about the success of compulsory Irish.