So I started playing FF13....

Retr0gamer

Well I was only playing it for 2-3 hours every night.

GodlessM

I said it in another thread, the opinions on this game, much like most of everything in life can be attributed to conservatism. There will always be a majority of fans who are so into a game that they hate to see it change, while the rest will embrace the change. I've found that people who hated FFXIII hated it because they were comparing back and saying, well the characters aren't like the characters in FFVII etc. Fact is everything evolves and eventually the characters were going to become more real and easier to relate to.

Raze_them_all

GodlessM wrote: »

I said it in another thread, the opinions on this game, much like most of everything in life can be attributed to conservatism. There will always be a majority of fans who are so into a game that they hate to see it change, while the rest will embrace the change. I've found that people who hated FFXIII hated it because they were comparing back and saying, well the characters aren't like the characters in FFVII etc. Fact is everything evolves and eventually the characters were going to become more real and easier to relate to.

I like games that don't treat me like a retard. A 20 hour tutorial to learn to to walk straight, press A a few times, walk straight, press A etc

carbonkid

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I like games that don't treat me like a retard. A 20 hour tutorial to learn to to walk straight, press A a few times, walk straight, press A etc

I wont say a 20hr tutorial but there was alot of hand holding. Imo i think FFIX was probably the most balanced of the games in the series. I hope they try to recreate an old school FF game again for FFXV...would probably need Hironobu Sakaguchi for that which wont happen

Raidenshred

This seems to be a pattern with Square, every time a new generation of FFs launches on a new generation of console. You get a first game that's visually impressive but quite linear (though to be fair, it's not like any game in the series was set Liberty City), you get a second game that's much more experimental and people either love it or hate it, and then finally you get a third game that's a proper balance of the last two and gets almost everything right but isn't as successful as either of them.

seraphimvc

ps1: 7,8,9 were all top quality stuffs. altho 8's battle system and over-focusing on the romance made it the awkward one.

1st game on ps2: X is my top5 FF.
2nd game on ps2: X-2 >_>
third game on ps2: ff12 is a half-product. T_T

ff13.....Q_Q

GodlessM

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I like games that don't treat me like a retard. A 20 hour tutorial to learn to to walk straight, press A a few times, walk straight, press A etc

Funny 'cause I've only gone through 17hrs of gameplay and the tutorial ended a long time ago. Fact is the tutorial section of the game ends rather early despite being later than usual. And the developers were clear that even that was because of the story. It wouldn't have made since for non-magical beings to be casting magic now would it? Besides, I think it's cool that there is new stuff continually added keeping the game fresh.

noodler

Final Fantasy XIII-2 officially announced.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=283906

Kersmash

I just started FF13 earlier today, just at the start of chapter 2. Haven't played anywhere near enough to give a proper judgement yet though. I can see it getting very tedious. And christ is it cheesey.


Also, I have no idea what the fúck the story is about? I'm hoping it gets explained properly soon because I'm just like... why am I doing this.. what's going on... and I do NOT want to read all that shíte in the datalogs.

Raze_them_all

Kersmash wrote: »

I just started FF13 earlier today, just at the start of chapter 2. Haven't played anywhere near enough to give a proper judgement yet though. I can see it getting very tedious. And christ is it cheesey.


Also, I have no idea what the fúck the story is about? I'm hoping it gets explained properly soon because I'm just like... why am I doing this.. what's going on... and I do NOT want to read all that shíte in the datalogs.

I found myself wondering why the **** am i doing this especially after the characters just said they'd do the exact opposite in the last ten cut scenes in that corridor

Retr0gamer

I really didn't get what happened at the end. The whole point was that they were defying their destiny. Then they meet the last boss and after the delibrations they do exactly what the last boss was asking and still win???

Mario007

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I really didn't get what happened at the end. The whole point was that they were defying their destiny. Then they meet the last boss and after the delibrations they do exactly what the last boss was asking and still win???

it's kinda hard to get at the first play through to be honest. they should have done a better job at explaining it, but if you start playing from the start again you'll notice, for example, that the focus they had on becoming ragnorak was exactly the same ragnorak that fang and vanille became to be. the animation of saving cocoon is used in their dream, even.
also you can interpret the ending as them standing up to their destiny, because they went up agains Dysley which was going against their destiny and then orphan because mainly because they would have died if they didn't fight. the scene with fang then was meant to symbolize that someone saved lighting and the gang from becoming l'cieth (this being etro, most likely based off the analects and ff13-2 trailer) and so with new found hope they lashed into orphan again, wanting for people of cocoon to be rid off this tyranny. in the end they did defy their destinies as through sheer will they saved cocoon.

...

having said all that it's all a bit hazy and you have to do a lot of thinking yourself. the ending is brilliant, no doubt, in its presentation. however i feel (and this applies to the whole game, even though i love it) that the developers put too little FNC mythology into it aside from the analects and so when something to do with FNC lore was mentioned people could be easily confused. for example that bit explaining everything about FNC that was released at S-E conference should have been narrated at the start of FF 13, after all this was the flagship of FNC.

Mark Hamill

Mario007 wrote: »

also you can interpret the ending as them standing up to their destiny, because they went up agains Dysley which was going against their destiny and then orphan because mainly because they would have died if they didn't fight.

They didn't go up against their destiny, they went along and fulfilled it. They went to kill Oprhan, exactly what they were supposed to do, knowing full well what woudl happen (Cocoon would fall) with no plan for what to do if they succeeded. They then magically reverted back from cieth, with no explanation of how this could happen and no indiciation before in the whole game that this was even possible, and then when they defeated Orphan, it turns out that Fang and Vanille could control Ragnarok? Despite (a) Ragnorok being given to them to do the exact opposite of save cocoon and (b) no previous indication that they had any control of Ragnarok at all. The ending was pulled out of the writers arses with no justificiation for any of it.

Mario007 wrote: »

the scene with fang then was meant to symbolize that someone saved lighting and the gang from becoming l'cieth (this being etro, most likely based off the analects and ff13-2 trailer) and so with new found hope they lashed into orphan again, wanting for people of cocoon to be rid off this tyranny. in the end they did defy their destinies as through sheer will they saved cocoon.

Who?

elekid

Mark Hamill wrote: »

They then magically reverted back from cieth, with no explanation of how this could happen and no indiciation before in the whole game that this was even possible

I don't know about the rest, but wasn't that was just an illusion designed to get a reaction from Fang and Vanille? I'm sure it was said at some point that Orphan might use trickery to deceive them so I don't think they ever actually became Cieth. I can't remember exactly what was said but I was very much under the impression that was what was happening when I played it.

Retr0gamer

Mario007 wrote: »

in the end they did defy their destinies as through sheer will they saved cocoon.

Deus Ex Machina

If they were to defy their destinies they would have not killed orphan. Instead they fulfilled their focus. Not sure if this or ExDeath in FF9 was worse but at least ExDeath was a homage to the final boss of FF games appearing out of no where.

Mark Hamill

elekid wrote: »

I don't know about the rest, but wasn't that was just an illusion designed to get a reaction from Fang and Vanille? I'm sure it was said at some point that Orphan might use trickery to deceive them so I don't think they ever actually became Cieth. I can't remember exactly what was said but I was very much under the impression that was what was happening when I played it.

Ok, that may be possible, but then how did it stop? How could they have overcome Orphans illusion? Its still a badly written deus ex machina.

Mario007

Mark Hamill wrote: »

They didn't go up against their destiny, they went along and fulfilled it. They went to kill Oprhan, exactly what they were supposed to do, knowing full well what woudl happen (Cocoon would fall) with no plan for what to do if they succeeded. They then magically reverted back from cieth, with no explanation of how this could happen and no indiciation before in the whole game that this was even possible, and then when they defeated Orphan, it turns out that Fang and Vanille could control Ragnarok? Despite (a) Ragnorok being given to them to do the exact opposite of save cocoon and (b) no previous indication that they had any control of Ragnarok at all. The ending was pulled out of the writers arses with no justificiation for any of it.


Who?

see that's the thing i was saying, S-E should have put the myth of FNC at the start of FF 13. I agree with you that execution was very poor. You shouldn't have to search through analects to figure out an essential part of the lore and even the game's plot itself.

As i've said they went in there wanting to kill Dysley. The second battle can even be said to be, in their minds, still with Dysley. They turned to cieth which shows that they did indeed defy their focus. The last battle with orphan (which, let's be honest wasn't really the final boss, it was something like Yu Yevon in X) was after they were reverted back by Etro (fal'cie or goddess of death- it's explained exactly who she is in the thread about FF XIII-2).
So they then defeated orphan, wanting to end the tyranny of the fal'cie. with regards to the ragnorak being controlled and all, it is said numerous times during FF 13 that they can change their destiny if they wish it to and believe (or something along those lines). Ragnorak was meant to represent that, in fact it represents the real focus as Fang and Vanille turn crystal afterwards and stay like that. Finally if you watch the few cutscenes with the flashes of their focus at the start of the game then Rangorak was actually shown saving cocoon.

Retr0gamer

Who the hell is Etro? If he or she or it is so important why wasn't it mentioned in the game. It's just bad storytelling.

seraphimvc

the ending was beautifully presented in visual, but like what Mark said - 'The ending was pulled out of the writers arses with no justificiation for any of it.'

seriously, is like, ohye, melodrama, happy ending, everybody is happy. yoho. wtf with that changing back from crystal to humans in the end, so anticlimax and 'anti-epic'. i kinda guess that the lesbo couple sorta did that for them but where did that mention in the game at all. bad plot is just bad.

and do anyone actually think of what would happen when all these normal citizens start their new lives on the ground? i mean, there are alot of these nasty beasts EVERYWHERE. yup, they are all doomed.:pac:

and i think cocoon make their foods too, all these people have no idea how to 'get' their food, right? its been like about thousand year they were feeding by cocoon. yup, humans is doomed due to what our protagonists did!! or else lets say we will have Lightning hunting for turtle to get people food for the rest of her life :pac:

(i read some of the novel and judging from people who finish them said the novel is so much decent in story telling, i would say is SE who fcked up the story telling. maybe SE want us to read those logs, then they can gtfo!)

GodlessM

I agree the ending was a bit ropey, but it made sense to a point. They killed Orphan to finally end fal'Cie rule, not to do as Barthandelus wanted, though it has to be said, what they expected to happen to Cacoon is beyond any of us.

On the Cie'th thing; Sazh says it that the fal'Cie smoke and mirrors won't stop them, proving they weren't really Cie'th. I think one of the producers might have said something about this afterwards also.

Regarding Etro, she is explained in the Datalog. Not the best way to go about it agreed, but the explanation is there.

And you got the give the producers some slack regarding how we have been presented the story; when something is initially created in one language somethings always get lost in translation.

The one thing I always find funny in games though, and I understand that it needs to be for the purpose of gameplay, is when the boss wants you to kill him yet he tries to kill you anyway

Mario007

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Who the hell is Etro? If he or she or it is so important why wasn't it mentioned in the game. It's just bad storytelling.

Etro is a goddess/fal'cie of death. She is referred to FF13 as the 'goddess', most notably by the scene when Dysley looks like Sarah and also by Fang when talking about Eidolons (they are a gift from Etro to give l'cie hope). She is also referred to by Lightning in trailer for FF13-2 and is the center point of the conversation between Stella and Noctis in FF Versus 13, with a high possibility that she gave Noctis all his powers and chosen him as her warrior.
She is further referred to in the Analects in FF 13.

Here's the FNC mythology as presented at the S-E conference last tuesday. To be honest I agree with you that this should have been mentioned earlier, saying all this at the start of every FNC title would work great imho, because the characters can't really figure out the whole myth and thus the player is kept in dark too.

Fabula Nova Crystalis wrote:

Once upon a time, a god ruled the world. He was called Buniberzei.

Buniberzei defeated his mother, the goddess Muin, and took control of the world for himself.

Muin disappeared into the unseen world--the invisible world.


Buniberzei was a god with many troubles.

The world, it was certain, was destined to die.

He believed this was a curse laid on the world by his mother Muin. Buniberzei knew he had to destroy her.

To do this, he must search for the door. The door to the invisible world where his mother waited.


Using his will alone, he created the first fal’Cie.

First, he created fal’Cie Pulse.

The duty he laid on him was to open the world, and search for the door to Muin.

Next, he created fal’Cie Etro.

But it was a mistake. Unknowingly, he created her exactly in the image of Muin.

Buniberzei feared her, and gave Etro no power of her own.

Instead, he created fal’Cie Lindzei.

The duty he laid on him was to protect Buniberzei from all who might seek to destroy him.

Buniberzei gave Lindzei one special duty. To wake him once the time came.

Then he turned to crystal, and fell into an endless sleep.


Pulse wished to expand the world, so he created many fal’Cie and l’Cie.

Lindzai wished to protect the world, so he created many fal’Cie and l’Cie.

But Etro was powerless, and could do nothing of her own.

Lonely, she thought of her mother, who she so resembled.

Etro tore at her body, letting her blood flow to the earth, and disappeared from the visible world.

From that blood, torn from her body, sprung humankind.

Creatures that were born, only to die.


The destruction of the visible world was no curse, only fate.

The world was divided into two halves, the visible and the invisible.

If the balance between these two were destroyed, the world itself would be destroyed.

The goddess Muin could do nothing to stop this fate.

She was being swallowed into the chaos of the invisible world.

Just before her last moment, Etro came to her side.

Muin told Etro that she must protect the balance of the world, before slipping into the chaos forever.

But Etro was foolish, and didn’t know the meaning behind Muin’s words.


Etro was lonely, but she felt affection for those humans who live only to die.

As they died, she smiled, and gave them chaos.

The chaos Etro gave them, the humans named “heart”.

Their hearts would become their power, but the humans did not yet know this.

Soon, they called Pulse the all powerful ruler. Lindzei they named their protector, and Etro... Etro the named ‘death’.

The humans lived on the world, hold chaos inside them.

Because they held chaos so close, the world once again was in balance.

And Buniberzei still sleeps. A crystal.

Until the end of forever...

GodlessM wrote: »

I agree the ending was a bit ropey, but it made sense to a point. They killed Orphan to finally end fal'Cie rule, not to do as Barthandelus wanted, though it has to be said, what they expected to happen to Cacoon is beyond any of us.

...

And you got the give the producers some slack regarding how we have been presented the story; when something is initially created in one language somethings always get lost in translation.

The one thing I always find funny in games though, and I understand that it needs to be for the purpose of gameplay, is when the boss wants you to kill him yet he tries to kill you anyway

pretty much this.

Mark Hamill

Mario007 wrote: »

The last battle with orphan (which, let's be honest wasn't really the final boss, it was something like Yu Yevon in X) was after they were reverted back by Etro (fal'cie or goddess of death- it's explained exactly who she is in the thread about FF XIII-2).

Does it indicate anywhere in the game that etro is who turned them back?

Mario007 wrote: »

So they then defeated orphan, wanting to end the tyranny of the fal'cie. with regards to the ragnorak being controlled and all, it is said numerous times during FF 13 that they can change their destiny if they wish it to and believe (or something along those lines). Ragnorak was meant to represent that, in fact it represents the real focus as Fang and Vanille turn crystal afterwards and stay like that.

I dont remember it saying that they could change their destinies simply by wishing it. Firstly, becasue it would have killed all the tension in the game if someone just pointed out that they didn't have to do what the fal'cie said if they didn't feel like it. And secondly it woudl beg the question of why anyone ever got turned to crytsal or into cieth if they all they needed to do was wish not to.

Mario007 wrote: »

Ragnorak was meant to represent that, in fact it represents the real focus as Fang and Vanille turn crystal afterwards and stay like that. Finally if you watch the few cutscenes with the flashes of their focus at the start of the game then Rangorak was actually shown saving cocoon.

So wait, it was Fang and Vanilles real focus to save Cocoon, and this focus was given to them by the fal'cie, who wanted Cocoon destroyed? Why would they do that?

Mario007

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Does it indicate anywhere in the game that etro is who turned them back?

Well there are indirect and subtle indication (or maybe i'm reading too much into it and it's really like GodlessM said and it was all just a trick on Fang's and Vanille's minds).
Etro is mentioned to be the one who defeated Ragnorak(ie Fang) 500 years ago and saved cocoon. It figures she'd do it the second time by helping Lightning and co. Also in FFVersus 13 it is said that Noctis and Stella can both see the 'light' as a gift from Etro. In the trailer it is shown as small almost raindrops of light when Noctis is about to fight Stella. We see these also in FF 13 when Eden is under the Pulse invasion.
Lastly in the trailer for the sequel of ff13 lighting is clearly a warrior Etro.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont remember it saying that they could change their destinies simply by wishing it. Firstly, becasue it would have killed all the tension in the game if someone just pointed out that they didn't have to do what the fal'cie said if they didn't feel like it. And secondly it woudl beg the question of why anyone ever got turned to crytsal or into cieth if they all they needed to do was wish not to.

Are you kidding me? the whole game is about wishing, wanting and fighting to change not only your destiny but that of everyone around you. Lightning from the onset is set to fight it. Snow tries to figure out how how to save Sarah. Sazh basically does the same with Dajh. Hope at first accepts his fate but then completely changes and is determined to fight it, same goes for Fang(though both have different reasons). But the biggest indication is Vanille who's narrating parts and most of the conversation after her past is discovered talks about promise and faith not to destroy cocoon and to change it all.
Also the game shows that this is possible through Cid Raines, who went against his focus and still got turned to crystal, not cieth.
The Eidolons scenes for Fang and Vanille also support this as both scenes see them struggle with the idea of changing their faith and through the eidolon battle they get new hope and to do (yet again as a gift from Etro).

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So wait, it was Fang and Vanilles real focus to save Cocoon, and this focus was given to them by the fal'cie, who wanted Cocoon destroyed? Why would they do that?

All I'm saying is that the scenes from the ending of the game where Ragnorak saves Cocoon are shown in the dream after they are all branded l'cie. I mean you are right it is expressly said by the game that Anima was brought up to Coocon by Dysley to brand people and get them to destroy cocoon. However I'd say we once again see Etro(or someone behind the scenes) at work here. Serah is turned to crystal not when they all unite as Dysley claims but as she says 'You can save Cocoon'. The fact that those are her only words after seeing her fiance and sister is also quite interesting.

I mean as I've said many times it is all too subtle and S-E should have done a better job at explaining the mythology. Especially since FF13 was the flagship of FNC yet it seems that Versus has more discussion of the mythology from the trailers alone. But when you put it all together it can all be logically explained.

Kersmash

I'm on chapter 5 atm and I have to say, I'm rather enjoying it. The story is confusing, cheesey and cliched right now, but I'm hoping it'll pick up. I am loving the battle system though. Maybe its that I've heard so much bad stuff about the game, that enjoying it just makes it seem better, but I'm having a lot of fun with it.

Mark Hamill

Mario007 wrote: »

Well there are indirect and subtle indication (or maybe i'm reading too much into it and it's really like GodlessM said and it was all just a trick on Fang's and Vanille's minds).
Etro is mentioned to be the one who defeated Ragnorak(ie Fang) 500 years ago and saved cocoon. It figures she'd do it the second time by helping Lightning and co. Also in FFVersus 13 it is said that Noctis and Stella can both see the 'light' as a gift from Etro. In the trailer it is shown as small almost raindrops of light when Noctis is about to fight Stella. We see these also in FF 13 when Eden is under the Pulse invasion.
Lastly in the trailer for the sequel of ff13 lighting is clearly a warrior Etro.

Well, 2 out of 3 of those reasons dont actually occur in the game. so they are not great evidence. The first one is a little more relevent, but if you watch the end scene again, you see that in game, the whole thing is brushed away as if its an illusion (in such a way that most people didn't even notice):
Vanille: (after everyone turns back to human from cieth) "You guys are all right?!"
Lightning: An illusion by Orphan?
And then no-one is worried about it or mentions it again. The stuff from the the 13-2 and 13-versus trailers just seems like retconning.

Mario007 wrote: »

Are you kidding me? the whole game is about wishing, wanting and fighting to change not only your destiny but that of everyone around you. Lightning from the onset is set to fight it. Snow tries to figure out how how to save Sarah. Sazh basically does the same with Dajh. Hope at first accepts his fate but then completely changes and is determined to fight it, same goes for Fang(though both have different reasons). But the biggest indication is Vanille who's narrating parts and most of the conversation after her past is discovered talks about promise and faith not to destroy cocoon and to change it all.
Also the game shows that this is possible through Cid Raines, who went against his focus and still got turned to crystal, not cieth.
The Eidolons scenes for Fang and Vanille also support this as both scenes see them struggle with the idea of changing their faith and through the eidolon battle they get new hope and to do (yet again as a gift from Etro).

Throughout the whole game, their detsinies are seen as constant and nothing can change that. No-one else in the game changes their detsiny and that includes Cid. His focus was to guide them in such a way that they would confront and kill Orphan, which is ultimately what they did.

Mario007 wrote: »

I mean as I've said many times it is all too subtle and S-E should have done a better job at explaining the mythology. Especially since FF13 was the flagship of FNC yet it seems that Versus has more discussion of the mythology from the trailers alone. But when you put it all together it can all be logically explained.

Like I said at the start, the stuff gotten from the trailers of the two games not even released yet just comes across as retconning plot holes they didn't even relaise where there at the start.

Lantus

FFXIII failed on so many levels.

The story was confusing, required reading acres of text (a real no no.) and would give the phantom menace a run for it's money on sheer confusion and total non sense. They should check out Fable III for total clarity and a story that is spoken to you whenever needed.

The characters were none you would really care about (even after the 90+ hours I invested.) There was no protagonist. (SE please look up good story telling.)

The absence of NPC's and towns gave the game a really empty and soulless feel. This really helped to emphasise the linearity as there was no clever distraction or side stories or other characters to give the clever illusion of depth and choice.

The ultimate weapon levelling up was just ridiculous. The % chance drops of those stones is so small it becomes a war of attrition.

The battle system did have merit and I have long maintained that the old turn based and random encounters needed to be replaced but the system they introduced was drip fed so slowly and I dont believe for a second we could not of handled the full system much much sooner.

I played this game out to all but the final achievment - treasure hunter (see above comment) so got my moneys worth and as huge FF fan really wanted to like it but the truth hurts, even if it is a loved on.

Maybe it's the way games are going to make them more accesible to the mass market rather than rely on established customers. But, I will b not be buying another FF game until I'm sure that my 50 or 100 hours invested will be a solid gold experience and one to remember.

seraphimvc

^you know i always blame the major success of Monter Hunter in japan made SE decided to screw up ff13 for me.

Aurongroove

FFXIII failed on so many levels.

The story was confusing, required reading acres of text (a real no no.) and would give the phantom menace a run for it's money on sheer confusion and total non sense. They should check out Fable III for total clarity and a story that is spoken to you whenever needed.




The ultimate weapon levelling up was just ridiculous. The % chance drops of those stones is so small it becomes a war of attrition.

stories don't need to be spoken, in fact I have yet to enjoy a story in an RPG since the onset of spoken dialogue. tThe closest I felt it came to not sucking was FFX, but the voice actors lacked the clout to deliver the more emotionally changed sections. IMO It is MUCH better to read then to have voice acted "well". The issue with FFXIII was the the story (which was quite good) was both voice acted badly, AND written badly.
I would have been several time happier to leave the voices in their original Japanese with a decently written subtitle, rather then the rubbish voice and the rubbish text.


the ultimate weapon leveling up was grand! and far easier then for example XII: (zaodiak spear, wyrmhero blade, Staff of magi, Danjuro), X (dodging 200 lightning bolts, etc), and IX (Excalibur II)

XIII is the most straight forward FF to get ultimate weapon since VIII


I do agree entirely with the rest of your points.

Aurongroove

Just recently picked up the ultimate hero trophy for this game, after slaving over th dconsole to get the treasure hunter.

it;s a shame, but I'm happy never to play it again. unlike say, IX which has ATE, silly characters and is full of soul. nice straight forward fighting system to: make sure your team aren't naked and go!

noodler

Starting this now,

Had a great year for games so far:

KH: BBS
Fallout NV
Mass Effect 2
Bioshock 2
Dead Space 1 (finally got round ot finishing it)
Batman AA (which was excellent).