Assistance needed on adjusting rear brake shoes on Carina E

john.west

Hopefully somebody may be able to assist me on the following queries. Car is 1997 Toyota Carina E saloon with drums at the rear.

Along with a few niggly small things which I rectified the same day I failed my NCT last Monday for an imbalance in the rear axle and also parking-brake in the brake test. Imbalance on the rear axle was 62% while anything above 30% is a fail. Imbalance on the parking brake was 75% while anything over 50% is a fail.

Seen a friend do brake shoes before so decided to take on the job myself. Some bloody knuckles and many curses later got the new shoes on yesterday. I adjusted the shoes by turning wormwheel until hub would just go on but wouldn't turn freely, then letting handbrake up and down a few times and the hub would loosen. Repeated this procedure a couple of times until there was little or nothing in it. Don't know if this is actually the correct procedure but it seemed to have worked. Both wheels seem to lock solid when brake or handbrake is applied but thats just with me turning wheels and somebody applying brakes. Of course its gonna be different with car on road. Handbrake seems to work well but needs to be pulled up a lot further than before. When it is pulled up to the max car won't budge even if I put it into first and give it lots of teddy!

What I really want to know is how to address the imbalance or is there a magic solution to get the braking balance close on each wheel? I know larger garages would probably have equipment but wondering how the smaller garages without specialist equipment might attack this job?

Also with the way the parking brake is holding the car as I described previously should this ensure parking brake effort will be sufficient. Car passed first time round for parking brake effort but failed on parking brake imbalance. I assume they will re-test parking brake effort?

Also just to note if its of any particular relevance there actually seemed to be very little wear on the brake shoes when compared with the new ones. Would I have got away with simply adjusting the brake shoes in the first instance?

Many thanks in advance for replies

john.west

Any mechanics out there able to advise?;)

fj1200

Check the hub for a little rubber grommet. Turn hub till grommet is at the bottom. Take out the grommet and adjust the 'worm wheel' (use a flat screw driver through the hole) till hub locks up and then slacken off till you can turn the hub. That's based on jobs I've done on Corolla's and Landcruisers. If the hand brake lever comes up too far you may need to adjust that too. Usually a couple of lock nuts under the lever.
Also dodgy, stretched/worn/damaged/partially seized, brake cables can cause an imbalance in the handbrake.

salamander27

I'm not a mechanic, but been DIYing for 12 years now. What I usually employ is the skid test on gravel or stone chips in my yard. Drive at about 5mph and pull the handbrake to stop the car. It should skid to a halt. Get out and check that both wheels skidded roughly at the same time. Handbrake is balanced.

You say the shoes were OK before, so you might have gotten away with just adjusting the "auto"-adjusters. Was the rear road brake balance OK?

john.west

fj1200 and salamander27, many thanks to both of ye for yer replies and kind assistance.

fj1200 I almost certain that the hub does not have the rubber grommet which you mention but in saying that I stand to be corrected. I should by right know though as the things were starring me in the face over the last few days:o. It would make sense that they should have the rubber grommet you mention. I recall when looking on with a friend putting on new brake shoes in his motor he was able to access the worm wheel through the hub. It would certainly make life easier from my point of view if this was the case. I assume dodgy/ streched/ worn/ damaged or partially siezed brake cables would have being highlighted to me in NCT or would it?

Salamander27 I will try to apply the test you mention over the next few days. Shame there isin't much in the way of loose gravel about at the moment with the weather though! I assume the car should stay pretty straight if steering straight ahead and on a flat level surface? There appeared to be very little wear on the shoes I took of so as you mention and in retrospect I may have gotten away with adjusting the brakes. On the road brake the imbalance was 62% which is considerable.

salamander27

Just thought of another few suggestions.
Check that the brake cylinder on the weak side isn't seized or leaking and you might also bleed the lines and replace with new fluid (always good). Also check for leaks in the lines or bulges in the flexible hoses (should have been checked by NCT but may have been missed).

The only time I ever got such an imbalance the lining had come off the shoe but I remember having trouble with a corolla handbrake cable being partially seized and needed to be jiggled a bit for the handbrake to work properly. Replaced it in the end.

Let us know how you get on......

john.west

Many thanks salamander27, Its going to be the weekend before I get to go near the brakes again but will certainly let you know how I get on and subsequently how my retest goes.

Avns1s

fj1200 wrote: »

Check the hub for a little rubber grommet. Turn hub till grommet is at the bottom. Take out the grommet and adjust the 'worm wheel' (use a flat screw driver through the hole) till hub locks up and then slacken off till you can turn the hub. That's based on jobs I've done on Corolla's and Landcruisers. If the hand brake lever comes up too far you may need to adjust that too. Usually a couple of lock nuts under the lever.
.

That procedure is for toyota cars with rear disc brakes with the handbrake which has a drum and shoes in the center of the hub. It doesn't apply to the Carina E.

fj1200 wrote: »

Also dodgy, stretched/worn/damaged/partially seized, brake cables can cause an imbalance in the handbrake.

I would agree that the cables should be checked. They have a tendancy to seize on the Carina and early Avensis (both identical) and this would cause both an imbalance and maladjustment of potentially both the handbrake and footbrake.

The other cause of imbalance on rear brakes / handbrake where the shoes aren't worn, is glazing of the lining (shoe). You will have gotten over this by replacing them. Check that your cables on each side are moving freely and it might be worth doing the couple of laymans tests described above too.

john.west

Hi All, Just to provide an update. I had the car jacked up today and was fiddling around with the brakes. As per Avns1s reply you are correcting in pointing out that the Carina E with rear drums do not have an access point to adjust brakes when hub is on. Bit silly really. I wonder was this pretty standard practice among car manufacturers or just a bad ommission on the part of Toyota. However, I checked cables and all look well enough to me although I'm by no means an expert either. I changed hubs around at the rear...not sure if this will actually make any difference. Also had a look at the pistion and it would appear to be fine and doing its job. Messed around at bot sides adjusting the wormwheel to push shoes in and out until hub would just go on and pulling the handbrake up and down at the same time. The wheel on the side that came out weaker in test is just about turning now for me when suspended although not too very freely all the same. When I pull the handbrake and try to turn the wheel its stopped rock solid, wont budge. The handbrake does feel a wee bit stiffer now alhough only marginally. Also pulled handbrake in an icy car park when had built up a bit of speed. Car seems to be pulling to the stronger side marginally, although only very marginally.

Maybe I'm clutching at straws here but I have one wheel on the front which is a slightly higher profile than other three (how this got through NCT in first place I'm unsure as reckon it should have being a fail probably) and its also newer than the rest with virtually no wear....rest of the tyres are perhaps 50%. If I chucked this wheel on the weaker side I'm wondering would it help my cause somewhat?

john.west

Just to provide ye with an update folks. Had the motor back in for a retest there this evening. Passed on back brake imbalance. Was down from the previous imbalance of 62% to an imbalance of just 6% which is well below the 30% at which it would fail. Parking brake imbalance is now down to 21% from 75% and imbalance above 55% is a fail so passed on that one also.

The other niggly thing I never mentioned in original post that car failed on was condition of offside brake hose. It had excessive corrosion. It didn't look that bad to me so I attaked it eith emrey paper and a dremel. Unfortunately it was inner hose near the fuel tank that had the corrosion as guy testing pointed it out to me there, so failed on that again. He made a bit of a scene over it saying it was in terrible condition and although granted it had what looke to me to be a wee bit of surface rust to say it had excessive corrosion and making a scene out of it seems to be going a bit too far. Only have till 22nd next to get retest done so am going to get about booking asap. Aggggh!

Does anybody know if these inner hoses are difficult to replace and could they be got in motor factors or main dealer only? Its just a small thin metal hose. Many thanks in advance for any advice.

salamander27

If you want to go the DIY route then you need one of these brake line flaring tool kits:

http://www.paddystoolstore.ie/Paddys-Tool-STore/Brake-tools/BPF-KIT

some copper brake line:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-16-X-25-FT-22G-COPPER-BRAKE-PIPE-C-W-20-METRIC-NUTS-/200534067585

and some compression joints available from most motor factors.

Also you'll need a way of cutting the line cleanly.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MINI-COPPER-BRAKE-PIPE-TUBE-CUTTER-3-16mm-1-8-5-8-/280603752702

You could order the brake line from toyota either. I got one for about 50 euro 6 years ago but it is a pain because the petrol tank had to be lowered to fit it.

Personally I'd bring it to a mechanic to get the copper pipe put in. Shouldn't cost to much to do.

CJhaughey

Could you not sand the rust back and paint the line an olive green colour like the factory new ones are?
If it's only surface rust then no harm, if it's actually dangerous look out for one from a breakers in good nick.

john.west

To provide ye with another update. I went into a garage or 2 this morning. None of them had the flaring tool and I reckon they weren't too keen on taking on the job if they had all the same. Granted though, its not too handy a job and what notice was I giving...I appreciate that. One mentioned another garage that might be able to do the job but he was way out backroads and they are pretty bad here at the moment so didn't risk it. And chances are if I brought it in late on a Saturday afternoon he wouldn't be able to sort me out. I had the car jacked up in the freezing bloody cold when I got home and put the axle stands underneath and attacked the the pipe with emery paper and wire wool and then some brasso to finish off!...The things I put myself through:rolleyes:

To be fair the pipe is absolutely gleaming now, what rust was on it was bare surface rust. Working on it I realised how fu*king lousy they were to fail it as the pipe is sound, had a very wee bit of surface rust on it but was tarnished more than anything. Just the very top of it where access is a wee bit tight and it goes into a wider pipe I couldn't quite get the emery paper on but its only a real tiny piece of the pipe and just a small bit of tarnish. Other than that pipe is gleaming silver. Brother is giving me his dremel tomorrow so will see if I can get that piece with it. Then maybe a toothbrush with brasso on it as access is limited here for me to stick my big fingers up there!

Dunno if what I've done will be good enough but they certainly can't fail it for rust now as there is absolutely no rust on it. One garage man mentioned that if they see you have doctured them at all and not replaced pipe they will fail you again. Time is against me now. Retest booked for Monday with Tuesday being the date I have to have retest done by. Just gonna let it through again and wish for the best. To be honest if I'm failed again I think the Guards will need to take me away from the test centre with the fuss I'll be kicking up. I'm not a roudy person but when somebody tests my patience.....well

ytareh

Good luck!Some handy info in many of above posts .Theyre always trying to catch ya on the retest fees.

john.west

ytareh wrote: »

Good luck!Some handy info in many of above posts .

Many thanks ytareh.

ytareh wrote: »

Theyre always trying to catch ya on the retest fees.

Don't I know at this stage though;)

john.west

Just to provide an update I passed NCT this evening. I now realise its one major con thats very flawed. Under the car Saturday I noticed a pipe that rust is severley eating into, think it could be a fuel pipe but not full sure, was way too cold to be on the ground investigating...If I should have being failed for rust I believe it should have being this pipe as brake line was solid out, bare surface rust or even tarnished more than anything....the mind boggles.

Also, I'd be curious to know how well calibrated their test equipment is. The car was on a different lane to last Thursday. Brake imbalance on rear axle on Thursday was 6%, today it was 23%. I haven't adjusted the brakes in the interm and my tyre pressure was checked before I went in on both occassions and same PSI I put into tyres on both occassions also. I don't know how ice on tyres would have a bearing if there was ice on a particular tyre(s) either time round.

Ah well, main thing is I've passed eventually. Many thanks to all who contributred to the thread.