Northern Ireland

KeithAFC

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Sorry, seriously? Are you demented?

It must be terrible to live in your little world of "Protestants" and "Catholics."

Jaysus, if a hindu ever came to power oop nort, you'd have a vagina fit!

The majority of people who celebrate St patricks day are Catholics or come from that background but are now Atheists.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

It is seen as a celebration which a lot more catholics would celebrate than Protestants.

ever hear of america keith look up their celebrations. Then look up the number of protestants in america compared to catholics.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well that is what it is.

but you have no problem with catholic unionists being considered the same as protestant unionists.

RMD

steddyeddy wrote: »

ever hear of america keith look up their celebrations. Then look up the number of protestants in america compared to catholics.

Northern Ireland is different. Yes protestants celebrate it worldwide without hesitation, most have some form of Irish "heritage" but it's different in the north. Paddys day in the North is the Catholic day of celebration, just like how 12th July is the Protestants main day of celebration. St Patricks day is a day of celebration for the patron saint of Ireland. Do you really see unionists celebrating that?

Worldwide there's no Catholic and Protestant crap on Paddys day, but up North it's different.

Mike 1972

KeithAFC wrote: »

Catholics or come from that background but are now Atheists.

Catholics who are now Atheists ?

The God they dont believe in is represented by the Pope

RMD wrote: »

Paddys day in the North is the Catholic day of celebration, just like how 12th July is the Protestants main day of celebration. .

Some Protestants in NI do celebrate Patricks day. Occasionally one or two people have suggested that Catholics should celebrate the Twelfth although its an idea which doesnt seem to have widely caught on yet !

And a lot of Protestants have little or no interest in the twelfth celebrations and in some cases (particularly in the years following Drumcree and the associated disturbances) are prepared to go out of their way to avoid the whole thing.

RMD wrote: »

St Patricks day is a day of celebration for the patron saint of the Republic of Ireland. Do you really see unionists celebrating that?.

Patricks day has been celebrated since before partition (and the Reformation as per above)

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

ever hear of america keith look up their celebrations. Then look up the number of protestants in america compared to catholics.

I woulnd't look too much into the American protestants to be honest. Many of them don't even recognise the work the Scotch Irish (Ulster scots) did in making America what it is today.

They would consider themselves Irish and completely forget about the Ulster Scots traditions. Which is a bit sad.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

The majority of people who celebrate St patricks day are Catholics or come from that background but are now Atheists.

keith finish that sentence with the phrase "in the north" sectarianism is held to such high regard in relativly few first world countries

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

It is seen as a celebration which a lot more catholics would celebrate than Protestants.

Kieth, Paddys day is celebrated by Irish people utterly, completely and totally irrespective of their religion across the globe.
Just because in your little sectarian part of the planet the 17th of march is (mostly) considered to be a day for the catholic community, does not mean this applies elsewhere.

KeithAFC

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Catholics who are now Atheists ?

The God they dont believe in is represented by the Pope

Well as you know the old saying, once catholic, always catholic..

But seriously, the background in Northern Ireland, the majority of people who come from a catholic family background, they would be the people who celebrate St patricks day.

KeithAFC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Kieth, Paddys day is celebrated by Irish people utterly, completely and totally irrespective of their religion across the globe.
Just because in your little sectarian part of the planet the 17th of march is (mostly) considered to be a day for the catholic community, does not mean this applies elsewhere.

Not on this island though.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well as you know the old saying, once catholic, always catholic..

But seriously, the background in Northern Ireland, the majority of people who come from a catholic family background, they would be the people who celebrate St patricks day.

do you think protestant and catholic unionists are one and the same keith?

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Not on this island though.

Why don't you come down here next year on the 17th March and see for yourself what tripe that statement is.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

do you thin protestant and catholic unionists are one and the same keith?

They share the same political ideology obviously but i doubt they attend the same celebrations. I doubt many unionist catholics would turn up for an event which would celebrate protestant culture.

KeithAFC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why don't you come down here next year on the 17th March and see for yourself what tripe that statement is.

So, your telling me the majority of people who celebrate St patricks day on this Island don't come from a catholic background?

philologos

KeithAFC wrote: »

So, your telling me the majority of people who celebrate St patricks day on this Island don't come from a catholic background?

This is awful, the only reason this is the case is because a majority of people living on this island come from a Catholic background. Naturally, a lot of people from Protestant or other backgrounds also celebrate St Patricks Day. Indeed many of any group don't either.

The same is true about the Ulster-Scots culture that you are talking about.

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well, i could but at the end of the day, its the same thing. The vast majority of protestants in Northern Ireland come from a Unionist political background. So it doesn't matter much.

No its not, Not all unionists are protestants , not all protestants are unionists.
You are needlessly bringing Religion into politics.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

So, your telling me the majority of people who celebrate St patricks day on this Island don't come from a catholic background?

Yes they do. And the religion of the majority of the participants is irrelevant, because it is not a catholic or religious celebration. Even though it began as such years ago.
This argument of yours clearly shows the underlying sectarianism of your own thinking and world view.

RMD

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why don't you come down here next year on the 17th March and see for yourself what tripe that statement is.

Your situation is different. You live Cork where regardless of religion people will see themselves as Irish. Up North due to the political history and religious divide most protestants still see themselves as British.

As I've said worldwide it's celebrated by many people regardless of religion, up North it's different. It's seen as a day of celebration for those who associate themselves with being Catholic and / or Nationalist, just like who 12th July is seen as a day of celebration for those who associated themselves with being protestant and / or unionist.

How it's celebrated in the Republic or worldwide means nothing in context of how it is viewed in Northern Ireland, most countries don't have a divide like there is in Northern Ireland, which is thankfully slowly going away.

KeithAFC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Yes they do. And the religion of the majority of the participants is irrelevant, because it is not a catholic or religious celebration. Even though it began as such years ago.
This argument of yours clearly shows the underlying sectarianism of your own thinking and world view.

St patricks day is NOT a religious holiday? St Patricks at the core element of it is the celebration of the St. So you can't say its not a religious holiday at all.

No its not, Not all unionists are protestants , not all protestants are unionists.
You are needlessly bringing Religion into politics.

I said the vast majority.

Cú Giobach

RMD wrote: »

Your situation is different. You live Cork where regardless of religion people will see themselves as Irish. Up North due to the political history and religious divide most protestants still see themselves as British.

As I've said worldwide it's celebrated by many people regardless of religion, up North it's different. It's seen as a day of celebration for those who associate themselves with being Catholic and / or Nationalist, just like who 12th July is seen as a day of celebration for those who associated themselves with being protestant and / or unionist.

My family come from the north and I am Very aware of the situation up there, if you follow the argument properly you will see I have already commented on the way Paddys day is looked on up there, and I am countering this rubbish that the day is a catholic celebration here .
As I pointed out earlier there is a difference between "catholic/protestant culture" and "culture that is mostly celebrated by catholics/protestants".
Just because one or the other happen to be the majority in a population, does not mean that that cultural trait can be considered a religious one.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

St patricks day is NOT a religious holiday? St Patricks at the core element of it is the celebration of the St. So you can't say its not a religious holiday at all.

As I said, it began as a religious feast and is still also a religious holiday.
BUT it is no longer, and hasn't been for a long time now in any way religious for the vast vast majority of people. People of all religions now celebrate the day as an Irish celebration, except up north.
Christmas began as a pagan feast, do you consider it a day for heathens?
I am totally atheistic and celebrate the day with "gusto".
(Though of course in your little part of the world I would still be considered catholic :rolleyes:)

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

So, your telling me the majority of people who celebrate St patricks day on this Island don't come from a catholic background?

the majority are also white keith but luckily most people dont think that way, the last few posts have shown that regardless of the circumstance you divide people by religion. even when I mention men from a unionist background you have to divide the people with the same political beliefs based on religion.

The joke is you claim your not sectarian ie you dont divide people based on religion. Then you contradict yourself by saying well everyone in northern ireland is divided by religion

HavingCrack

KeithAFC wrote: »

There is many events in the calender which have nothing to do with unionism but are directed more towards a protestant angle and i know many people who don't believe in god or go to church who celebrate at these occasions.

Well those people are idiots in that case. As an atheist I'd be sickened that anyone who doesn't believe in a god would go along to a church out of some cultural-religious-political mix up. Anyway Keith you seem determined to label the divide in Northern Ireland as Protestant-Catholic rather than Nationalist-Unionist-Don't give a flying **** either way so I'm not arsed arguing with you. Have fun in your little sectarian bubble.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

the majority are also white keith but luckily most people dont think that way, the last few posts have shown that regardless of the circumstance you divide people by religion. even when I mention men from a unionist background you have to divide the people with the same political beliefs based on religion.

The joke is you claim your not sectarian ie you dont divide people based on religion. Then you contradict yourself by saying well everyone in northern ireland is divided by religion

No i didn't. I said the majority of people who are unionists in Northern Ireland just happen to be Protestants.

Many atheists DO go to Protestant cultural events and enjoy themselves. I know many of them. I ain't religious either.

The point is being missed here. The claims that the majority of people on this Island who celebrate St patricks day don't come from a catholic background is rather fale imo.

gothicus

Cú Giobach wrote: »

As I said, it began as a religious feast and is still also a religious holiday.
BUT it is no longer, and hasn't been for a long time now in any way religious for the vast vast majority of people. People of all religions now celebrate the day as an Irish celebration, except up north.
Christmas began as a pagan feast, do you consider it a day for heathens?
I am totally atheistic and celebrate the day with "gusto".
(Though of course in your little part of the world I would still be considered catholic :rolleyes:)

Christmas didnt begin as a Pagan feast, the day was simply adopted by Christians which made it easier to incorporate pagans once Constantine adopted christainity. as for for St Patricks day, its celebrated by all Irish be they Northern or Republic as a day to enjoy, the day its self as a religious feast is dying with the rest of the church. We should continue to reunite with the north. Even with the pressures we are enduring it is surely in all our best interests to make this island whole. There will not be a better time with upcoming elections to truly try and involve the North with Southern politics. The Republic already contributes greatly to the North in terms of post ‘troubles’ finance, whereas England sees the North simply as a financial burden. Irelands and Irish people’s future is very much going to be decided for us if we cant decides for ourselves….and soon. I firmly believe we cant move forward as a poeple until we reunite.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

The point is being missed here. The claims that the majority of people on this Island who celebrate St patricks day don't come from a catholic background is rather fale imo.

Keith ffs, nobody is claiming any such thing, what we are saying is, it is not a catholic celebration. It is a celebration of Irishness regardless of religion.

KeithAFC

The joke is you claim your not sectarian ie you dont divide people based on religion.

The country has hundereds and hundereds of years of seperation based on religion. I ain't saying its right.

Im pointing out the reality of the situation in Northern Ireland. The vast majority of unionists come from a protestant background. The vast majority of people on the island who celebrate St patricks day do come from a catholic background.

KeithAFC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Keith ffs, nobody is claiming any such thing, what we are saying is, it is not a catholic celebration. It is a celebration of Irishness regardless of religion.

I look at the core of things. St patricks day has as much a right to be called a religious holiday as any other holiday.

Cú Giobach

gothicus wrote: »

Christmas didnt begin as a Pagan feast, the day was simply adopted by Christians which made it easier to incorporate pagans once Constantine adopted christainity. .

So a name change and different associations being given to something negates its roots.

Mike 1972

KeithAFC wrote: »

St patricks day is NOT a religious holiday? St Patricks at the core element of it is the celebration of the St. So you can't say its not a religious holiday at all..

Whatever about the theory/origins one could argue that in practice the religious aspect consists of only a small part (none at all for some many people) of the celebrations today. Just like Christmas.

But this is going just a little bit O/T ?

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

The vast majority of people on the island who celebrate St patricks day do come from a catholic background.

I am going to retire from this now because your entrenched view of the world along sectarian lines makes logical discussion impossible.
Until people like yourself and your ilk can see the craziness of your argument on this point, there will be problems on this island.

KeithAFC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I am going to retire from this now because your entrenched view of the world along sectarian lines makes logical discussion imposable.
Until people like yourself and your ilk can see the craziness of your argument on this point there will be problems on this island.

It is true though. I don't know what else you want me to say.

Wolfe Tone

Saint Patricks day being a religious holiday... lol I remember a few years ago the church moved the day, did anyone pay attention?

philologos

KeithAFC wrote: »

I look at the core of things. St patricks day has as much a right to be called a religious holiday as any other holiday.

St. Patrick is also venerated in the Presbyterian Church and Church of Ireland, and is widely recognised by non-Catholic Christians as having brought Christianity to Ireland.

gothicus

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So a name change and different associations being given to something negates its roots.

The previous pagan religion your refer to is Sun worship, Christains already worshipped on the same day as a major feast of Sun worship....the 25th December, there is no name change, Christainty did not come from pagism its roots differ to the way the beliefs of both religions differ...Monotheism/Polytheism.

Religion be it Catholic or Protestant no longer severs a purpose for Irish people except for those involved in violence, just like Nationlism be it Irish or British no longer serves a purpose except for more violence. It would not be any easy thing to achieve but as we are an island our policits should not have 2 very different systems anymore, we would be better served all round if with one political system. I for one would rather see funding for southern coffers go to the North if we were all actually on the same page which is making this island prosperous.

KeithAFC

Jakkass wrote: »

St. Patrick is also venerated in the Presbyterian Church and Church of Ireland, and is widely recognised by non-Catholic Christians as having brought Christianity to Ireland.

No one said it didn't. What im saying is the majority of people on the island who celebrate it come from a catholic background.

Cú Giobach

gothicus wrote: »

The previous pagan religion your refer to is Sun worship, Christains already worshipped on the same day as a major feast of Sun worship....the 25th December, there is no name change, Christainty did not come from pagism its roots differ to the way the beliefs of both religions differ...Monotheism/Polytheism.

Yes, you are correct. :rolleyes:
Anything to say to me re what I was actually discussing.

gothicus

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. :rolleyes:
Anything to say to me re what I was actually discussing.

im going on the opening post, ie I want to see Ireland as whole country. is that not what we are discussing? When St. patrick came to Ireland there was no such thing protestant or even catholism or religion, so the festival itself can be claimed by all as a religious feast but it has long since been one.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

No one said it didn't. What im saying is the majority of people on the island who celebrate it come from a catholic background.

So what?
This is because the majority of people are catholic, as was said so well earlier they are also white is that also relevant?


P.S. I know, I just can't stop.

philologos

KeithAFC wrote: »

No one said it didn't. What im saying is the majority of people on the island who celebrate it come from a catholic background.

Precisely because a majority of people on this island are from a RCC background.
That's obvious. I don't get your point.

dlofnep

Paisley in St Patrick's Day call

Ian Paisley has called for St Patrick's Day to be designated a public holiday in Northern Ireland. The first minister and former moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church said he always celebrates the day by preaching about the saint.

Mr Paisley said he thought 17 March should be a day off for everyone on the island of Ireland.

"I have proposed it in the House of Commons and I have proposed it here," said the North Antrim MP. "Maybe they'll celebrate my passing by saying to St Patrick 'you can have a day to yourself'."

If Paisley can jump aboard the bandwagon, then you can too Keith.

Cú Giobach

gothicus wrote: »

im going on the opening post, ie I want to see Ireland as whole country. is that not what we are discussing? When St. patrick came to Ireland there was no such thing protestant or even catholism or religion, so the festival itself can be claimed by all as a religious feast but it has long since been one.

Since I couldn't give a flying f*ck about someones religion and have a deep dislike of all religions equally, why are you directing your posts at me

All I am saying here is that paddy's day is no longer considered by the vast majority of people either religious or catholic.

gothicus

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Since I couldn't give a flying f*ck about someones religion and have a deep dislike of all religions equally, why are you directing your posts at me

All I am saying here is that paddy's day is no longer considered by the vast majority of people either religious or catholic.

hmmm, you have to have respect regardless of your views man, otherwise who will respect you??

Cú Giobach

gothicus wrote: »

hmmm, you have to have respect regardless of your views man, otherwise who will respect you??

Off topic I know but....
Religion doesn't deserve respect.
(If you want to discuss this I'll meet you over in the atheist forum).

philologos

Respecting people seems to be important though. There seems to be little point to rabbit on about atheism in a thread that has nothing to do with it.

gothicus

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Off topic I know but....
Religion doesn't deserve respect.
(If you want to discuss this I'll meet you over in the atheist forum).

may u see u there later still getting use to boards and its many mouths You cant post the above though and then runaway man. Religion still has sway in Ireland and will for some time. Just because it has many flaws and you dont respect it doesnt give u the right to dismiss it. At its core, religion can and does give hope to many people who have never harmed a soul. I am not religious btw

Mike 1972

The poll is rather flawed in that it is based on the assumption the only reasons why someone in the Republic might be opposed/indifferent to unification are economic.

Cú Giobach

gothicus wrote: »

may u see u there later still getting use to boards and its many mouths You cant post the above though and then runaway man. Religion still has sway in Ireland and will for some time. Just because it has many flaws and you dont respect it doesnt give u the right to dismiss it. At its core, religion can and does give hope to many people who have never harmed a soul. I am not religious btw

I'll post a question over there later (once I've eaten).
I'm sure you'll find the place. It's under society-->religion & sprituality-->atheism & agnosticism.

Jakkass wrote: »

Respecting people seems to be important though. There seems to be little point to rabbit on about atheism in a thread that has nothing to do with it.

:rolleyes:
Who's rabbiting.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

If Paisley can jump aboard the bandwagon, then you can too Keith.

I don't like Ian Paisley anyway.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't like Ian Paisley anyway.

Not hardcore loyalist enough for ya Keith?