What change to the firearms legislation would we all agree on??

daveob007

With the general election coming pretty soon and the opposition knocking on our doors looking for votes,here is my question.
Which parts of Aherns failed legislation would you like to see changed by a new government.
I think we should all come up with something that we can ask the candidates when they ask for votes.
would it be a good idea if we had a common goal even though we all have different problems,,,which problems are common to all aspects of shooting??

the appeal system=one that would not involve huge costs to us would be good.
a new definition of restriced=not one that restricts a firearm because of what it looks like.
all .22 pistols to be non restriced=and not a list of preffered ones.
airguns below 12ftlbs and 6ftlbs as in the U.K. to be licence free=not the system we have where any little plinking gun is classed as a firearm.
the garda commishioners guidelines to be adhered to by all districts=not guidelines that are implimented differently all over the place.

many more problems,,what are your ones??

Bananaman

Change Firearms licenses to not have your address but instead have your photo - would be a good start - not particularly security conscious when they drew up what we have.


B'Man

Tackleberrywho

Bananaman wrote: »

Change Firearms licenses to not have your address but instead have your photo - would be a good start - not particularly security conscious when they drew up what we have.


B'Man

And have the cards just saying a Pulse number, so the regular Joe would not cop that it was a gun licence :eek:

I'd love to see an exemption on lever action rifles (cowboy Rifles) so we could licence calibres over .30 that were legal on deer.

Reloading to be the Norm, once someone had passed a Safety/Training course they could happily reload.

And a bounty on Magpies, Greycrows and Foxes!!

guns4fun

put licencing back into the guards hands and not an post,,security issue here.

allow target practice on nominated lands that you use for hunting and not just authorised ranges.

bring back practical pistol shooting and lift ban on centre fire pistols.

use a comittee for appeals and not the courts,,too costly and also a security risk.

Sparks

I can think of a few, but starting with the smallest changes:

• Change section one of the Firearms Act so the definition of a firearm, section B goes from "one joule" to "eight joules" (or "sixteen joules" if we want to harmonise with the UK instead of the EU);
• Lower the age limit on the training licence to ten for airguns and twelve for every other kind of firearm (there are two reasons for the different age for airguns, (1) the amount of recoil and the damage it can do to a child's bones and musculature, and (2) the only juniors shooting that young are Pony Club tetrathletes and they only use airguns - the idea being to ask for only what you need);
• Delete part (b) from the Restricted List SI's definition of an assault rifle;
• Add crossbows to the list of unrestricted firearms (they were left out by an oversight, they shouldn't be restricted on general principle);
• Change section 2(e) of the Restricted List SI to read (e) short firearms compliant with International Olympic Committee shooting competition regulations.

There are other things we could change, but those give us the most bang for the least bucks, if you'll pardon the expression. And note that if we get the first, then the airgun clause of the second should just get dropped.

Bananaman

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I'd love to see an exemption on lever action rifles (cowboy Rifles) so we could licence calibres over .30 that were legal on deer.

There are plenty of CF Lever action carbines licensed - I have one myself - but only for target shooting (Gallery Rifle Centrefire).

I don't think Cowboy Action Shooting ever happened here - nobody has/has any interest in it.

Most CF Lever actions are chambered in .38/.357 which are fairly low velocity rounds.

B'Man

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

• Change section 2(e) of the Restricted List SI to read (e) short firearms compliant with International Olympic Committee shooting competition regulations.

I disagree 100%

The International Olympic Committee should have no says in the laws of Ireland - we would have to comply with whatever changes they made to their regulations.

To discriminate against sports which are not an Olympic sport is absolutely wrong.

B'Man

xp90

Less restrictions on catagories:

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I disagree 100%
The International Olympic Committee should have no says in the laws of Ireland - we would have to comply with whatever changes they made to their regulations.
To discriminate against sports which are not an Olympic sport is absolutely wrong.
B'Man

If I hear one more person on our side kneejerk against that idea without apologising first to the 9mm and .38 pistol owners they seek to disentitle, I'm going to give up the belief that that person has the best interests of shooters at heart, I really am.

Besides which, the IOC is mentioned because they encompass ISSF, IBU and UIPM rules, which (a) we do have a say in drafting, and (b) you don't seem to have actually read. If you had, you'd see why I think this would be a good step.

firefly08

The ban on centrefire handguns is the single most outrageous thing from the whole business. That should be tackled first - IMO, to deal with any of the smaller issues first when that elephant is in the room is to accept that we'll never get that changed.

It wasn't me!

I'd like to see the notion of a restricted list swatted down clean. Bloody stupid. My own biggest gripe is with the idea of a calibre restriction on rifles. I can have a .30-378 Weatherby mag, but not an 8x57 without going restricted. It's lunacy.

Would also like to see the reintroduction of centrefire pistols.

De-regulation of low-powered airguns. Would settle for the EU 8 joules, but the UK 12 ft/lbs wouldn't be bad either.

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

If I hear one more person on our side kneejerk against that idea without apologising first to the 9mm and .38 pistol owners they seek to disentitle, I'm going to give up the belief that that person has the best interests of shooters at heart, I really am.

Besides which, the IOC is mentioned because they encompass ISSF, IBU and UIPM rules, which (a) we do have a say in drafting, and (b) you don't seem to have actually read. If you had, you'd see why I think this would be a good step.

I don't care.

It is wrong to have the International Olympic Committee have anything to do with Irish Laws.

They are just one sporting body -
Why not let them decide which 'handball' is allowed?
Why not have the FIFA decide what variants of "Football" are allowed?

By all means reference them in support material, but under no circumstances whatsoever, should they ever get to decide what we in Ireland are, or are not, allowed to do.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I don't care.

Yeah, I gathered that.
Problem is, you're wrong for several reasons, most notably because you haven't read the rules you're decrying.
And because you think we've no say in them (we do, we just don't draft them ourselves and impose them on the world). Hell, we have more say in the ISSF rulebook than we ever used to have in the Firearms Acts up until the FCP was founded.

The point of my post was to point out FAST, SIMPLE, SMALL changes to the current legislation that would effect the most positive change for the least effort. Dropping the restricted list would be good (ask rrpc, I shouted myself hoarse in many meetings arguing against it). Bringing back CF pistols without restriction would be good (ask the DoJ, SSAI or NTSA, I protested against their banning at the time). Hell, there are a lot of things that we could change that would be good, but all of them are longer, more complex changes. My list could be done inside of three months, most of it inside of a week.

Have you an idea that can bring back most CF pistols inside a week?

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, I gathered that.
Problem is, you're wrong for several reasons, most notably because you haven't read the rules you're decrying.

Maybe I have

Will they support us having IPSC ?

B'Man

Sparks

The full IPSC sport? No, we'd have to get section 4C repealed and that's going to take longer than a week.

But in the meantime, you could be training on bullseye targets with CF pistols (no IOC rule bans IPSC).

Or do you think those who want to shoot CF pistol shouldn't do so unless they do it the way you specify? Because last I checked, while shooting IPSC was large enough here, so was the group of people who shot CF pistol and weren't shooting IPSC.

What we're talking about here B'man is not the final solution, but the first step. And if the first step doesn't take you all the way to your destination, you just take a second step, and then a few more and you keep on going till you get there. So stop cursing the fact that you can't take a single step to get to where you want to be, for pragmatism's sake.

Bananaman

Thanks for the clarification which had nothing to do with what I asked - but I have come to expect that.

I said that the IOC should have nothing to do with what we are allowed to do or are not allowed to do in Ireland as a country - they control what happens at ISSF events - that's it.

Any reference to them in our laws would be a mistake.

I asked whether or not their regulations would support us having IPSC?

And you then assumed that I thought all people with CF pistols should shoot IPSC - bit of a leap there.

No - I do not think all people who have a CF Pistol should shoot IPSC - in fact I have no interest at all in what sports they take part in - that is up to them. Not me, Not you, Not the IOC.

I think that basing our legal restrictions on the IOC regulations will make the world look very ISSF which is a bit beige for me - not that I don't like beige - but sometimes a bit of colour in the world is a good thing.

No - I do not have an alternative suggestion for how we would go about getting CF pistols back but i think looking for any one person, organisation or sport to come up with it would be a mistake also.

What I would like - on that issue - is for the NASRPC and ITS, the two organisations that actually do represent CF Pistol shooting in Ireland to be at the meeting and have a say in what the approach is.

B'Man

PS: I'm almost afraid to refresh this page for the unholy child of satan, multi quoted, bible referencing, diatribe that will explain why I am wrong.
But I do not care as I am not saying I am correct - I am giving my opinion.

clivej

I would like to see that a person can apply for the license for a certain calibre before getting the firearm. That way you know if you have got a license before you go pick out the gun.
It would only then need the dealer to return the gin serial number on the sale reciept for you to get those details added to your new license.
Like it's done in the UK.

daveob007

Judging by your comments the whole legislation seems to be a complete farce,,looks like we need it done from the start,,every little bit.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Any reference to [the IOC] in our laws would be a mistake.

Right, so you're opposed to the rapid reintroduction of centerfire pistols. Okay, good to know.

No - I do not think all people who have a CF Pistol should shoot IPSC -in fact I have no interest at all in what sports they take part in - that is up to them. Not me, Not you, Not the IOC.

You're just saying that if you don't control things, then you oppose things.
This idea would bring back a good two thirds of all CF pistols, without the time it takes to go through the Dail and repeal 4C and the restricted list (and that's assuming we can convince everyone that's a good idea), and all the components we need in terms of support for the idea are there.
But you oppose it because you heard the word "Olympic".
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face - in fact, talk about cutting off other people's noses!
<edit: that last comment was over the line, and I retract it and apologise>

No - I do not have an alternative suggestion for how we would go about getting CF pistols back

I thought not.

What I would like - on that issue - is for the NASRPC and ITS, the two organisations that actually do represent CF Pistol shooting in Ireland to be at the meeting and have a say in what the approach is.

Talk to the SSAI so. You guys invented the SSAI, you guys wrote the rules and you guys voted on them, so don't come complaining on here that the rules aren't fair - you have an official SSAI rep on the FCP and you have an unoffical rep there as well; you can't ask for fairer than that, not unless you want to demand that you get preferential treatment over the other shooters.

PS: I'm almost afraid to refresh this page for the unholy child of satan, multi quoted, bible referencing, diatribe that will explain why I am wrong

I'm not just saying you're wrong B'man - I'm saying that you think that if the idea didn't come from your head, and if it isn't something you control, that you're automatically opposed to it, no matter what it costs anyone else in our community.
But I multi-quoted, so I guess you didn't read this far.
:mad:

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

Judging by your comments the whole legislation seems to be a complete farce,,looks like we need it done from the start,,every little bit.

It's not a horrible idea... but we just spent ten years because Minister McDowell had that thought, and it turns out it's damn near impossible to write legislation neatly because even if we wrote the perfect manuscript and gave it to the DoJ and neither the DoJ nor the Minister had any issues with it and accepted it completely; it still has to get through the AG's office (where they amend the words looking at the legalese, and not the actual thing the legalese is talking about), and then the Dail (where every TD wants to amend it to be seen to be doing something) and then the Seanad (same story).

To be honest, it's always easier to adjust than to make up from whole cloth. And it's always, always easier to adjust an SI than primary legislation, which is why I suggested modifying the restricted list SI before we go chasing after changes in primary legislation to reintroduce CF pistols.

ssl

i like to see all your firearms put on one licence, therefore you'll just have one form to fill out, on which you list all you guns. plus a hard plastic licence with your photo and not your address.

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Talk to the SSAI so. You guys invented the SSAI, you guys wrote the rules and you guys voted on them, so don't come complaining on here that the rules aren't fair - you have an official SSAI rep on the FCP and you have an unoffical rep there as well; you can't ask for fairer than that, not unless you want to demand that you get preferential treatment over the other shooters.

I never mentioned the SSAI or the FCP.

I said that if there is to be a meeting to discuss a strategy for how future CFPistol licensing would be allowed - that those that actually represent CF Pistol shooting, namely NASRPC and ITS would be there and have an input.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I never mentioned the SSAI or the FCP.
I said that if there is to be a meeting to discuss a strategy for how future CFPistol licensing would be allowed - that those that actually represent CF Pistol shooting, namely NASRPC and ITS would be there and have an input.
B'Man

Well, that's fair enough.
B'man, I hereby invite a representative of the NASRPC and a representative of the ITS to the official Boards.ie How-We-Will-Change-The-Firearms-Act meeting.

(By the way, this is it, so you can tell them it's here)

Bananaman

Thanks for that but I would prefer that people that use 'the outside world' cold wet thing the other side of the windows - where the pizza delivery guy does be - actually met up and decided these sorts of things.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Thanks for that but I would prefer that people that use 'the outside world' cold wet thing the other side of the windows - where the pizza delivery guy does be - actually met up and decided these sorts of things.

First off, shame on you for calling out pizza delivery in that weather.
Secondly, you're the only one here who thinks this is a formal policy meeting...

Tackleberrywho

Bananaman wrote: »

There are plenty of CF Lever action carbines licensed - I have one myself - but only for target shooting (Gallery Rifle Centrefire).

I don't think Cowboy Action Shooting ever happened here - nobody has/has any interest in it.

Most CF Lever actions are chambered in .38/.357 which are fairly low velocity rounds.

B'Man

in .30-30 Cal


I'd like to see blackpowder Hunting rifles over .4 calibre being allowed UNRESTRICTED.
I'd love to see 12g being allowed to use Slugs and Rifled barrels on deer as the fact that they are not is silly.

sfakiaman

1. Abolish the restricted list, it serves no useful purpose and the calibre restrictions on CF rifles are a joke e.g. 32-20 against .300 OMG magnum.
2. De-classify airguns at or under 12 joules as firearms.
3. Introduce licences for different categories of firearms. This would be like the (old?) UK system where, for instance, you are granted a licence for a .223 rifle then you go shopping for the best deal. If you want to change rifles you simply go to the dealer, he buys your old one and you buy the new one. The dealer writes it up and notifies the police. My idea would be to simplify that, which would mean that a licence holder with authorisation for a RF rifle who wants to trade his .22LR for a .17 HMR would simply do the trade in the dealers, the Guards would be notified and the details entered on Pulse. I would see the categories as below
a. Shotgun
b. Rimfire rifle
c. .22 CF rifle
d. Rifles firing pistol caliber ammo.
e. CF rifle (possibly two categories based on power)
f. Pistol.
4. License with a photo and pulse number with other details on a chip like a bank card.
5. Reloading allowed. Possession of ammo as per license
6. Stop the discrimination against certain firearms on cosmetic grounds. No body looking down the barrel of a shotgun is worried if it has a pistol grip or not.
7. Centralise license processing.

There is probably a lot more but the above would make life a lot easier for shooters, gun dealers and the guards.

meathshooter1

that supers and chief supers stop bending and making up there own interpretations of the guidelines and a bit of equality.no media naming of people who have to go to courts big security issue.a way for new blood to get into the sport of centrefire pistols.reloading to be brought in,all firearms on one cert with photo(plastic creditcard type). the FCP and NGBs giving more of an input.

chem

Buy, sell and collect antique and deactivated firearms, as in the UK, EU and most of the rest of the world, without having to send everything for testing, inspection and lots of red tape.

4gun

this is almost reading like a letter to santa.....squabbling parents includes:D
here is the Christmas tree

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why not wait to see who gets the office after the next general election...who are the justice reps for both FG and Lab..why not give them a vote of enchoragement and canvass them now for these changes ..it might bear fruit when the time comes
because when they get into power they might not be so approachable

Kryten

First and foremost is to lift the ban on CF pistols and allow those who participate in the sport to renew their CF licences. Too many competition shooters have been refused their renewals. This is not on. I have heard of other people, who's primary discipline is not even pistols, have theirs renewed no problem.

Olympic pistol references should be dropped, as lets face it, the only cartridge pistol disciplines in the olympics are Men's Rapid Fire, men's 50meter pistol and Women 25 Meter pistol. I know its a recognisable brand to Joe Public and Joe Minister, but it is wrong to pidgeon hole pistol shooting to one variety.

I know this is more than just subtle changes in the rules, but Pistol shooting, as a sport has been decimated by these unfair laws and by unreasonable Chief Superintendents. It needs to be changed asap.