Inner-city kids.

MrChavcore

dazey wrote: »

You have to understand that both the kids and their parents are a product of their environment. They didn't fly out of the womb with that attitude. Throwing a snowball is not an offence as far as I know. Teenagers are ALWAYS viewed as little brats, I'm sure your elders had something to say about your generation and the 'youth of today'. So don't confront them. That is what they want. Just ignore them, the Gardai have more important things to be worrying about than these kids. And that is all they are, KIDS. Have you never done anything you were not proud of due to peer pressure? I know I have. The pressure that comes with being in a gang is huge, so understand that it may just be an act on the part of these boys

I wasn't viewed as a social menace because I knew what the consequences were. If you so much as looked at the wrong person in the wrong way back home you'd be risking your life... not just a beating! Thats the thing, I was raised to be street smart, thats why I'll never allow myself to be intimidated by these brats.. Justifying their behaviour because of their social condition, whilst plausible still doesn't make it right or root out the problem. Are we meant to sit back and accept that this cycle should just continue with their kids and their kids' kids!? If their behaviour directly impacts on the quality of my life then why shouldn't I do everything in my power to prevent it from happening!?

dazey

MrChavcore wrote: »

I wasn't viewed as a social menace because I knew what the consequences were. If you so much as looked at the wrong person in the wrong way back home you'd be risking your life... not just a beating! Thats the thing, I was raised to be street smart, thats why I'll never allow myself to be intimidated by these brats.. Justifying their behaviour because of their social condition, whilst plausible still doesn't make it right or root out the problem. Are we meant to sit back and accept that this cycle should just continue with their kids and their kids' kids!? If their behaviour directly impacts on the quality of my life then why shouldn't I do everything in my power to prevent it from happening!?

Ye you didn't act that way becuase you feared for your life. There is no way you can put that same fear into children in Ireland. Would you like kids to be afraid that THEY might get their heads kicked in? Roles reversed there. Look at the above comment I replied to. These kids have nothing to keep them out of trouble - no compulsary school until eighteen, no after school programmes of interest, no proper public sports facilities, no ammenities geared towards their age group, no youth clubs. What is there left but wandering the streets? It is the Government's responsibilty in the modern country we live in to put these services in place

S23

Dazey those arguments are completely untrue. I grew up amongst the type of kids being talked about. There were loads of facilities in the particular area I grew up in (youth club, weekly disco, summer projects, large designated space for playing football) and it didn't stop the scumbags from being scumbags.

Not having a big enough playground doesn't justify hanging around on street corners, verbally abusing and threatening people (as witnessed by one poster in this thread) attacking defenceless old men in packs. However, case in point, even when all the facilities were there some kids still did it.

You can talk about peer pressure, you can talk about environment and whatever else you like. I grew up in these exact same conditions and I didn't behave that way because I chose not to. I chose not to because I knew it was wrong. I know others who were the same. Ultimately kids get to a stage where they can tell right from wrong and it's then they make their choice.

No 14 year old (who doesn't suffer from some mental disorder) fails to realise that threatening or attacking people is wrong.

Dudess

If mouthiness is all they're guilty of, I'd either make a smart comment or ignore - they're not doing much in the great scheme of things.

mikemac

dazey wrote: »

These kids have nothing to keep them out of trouble - no compulsary school until eighteen, no after school programmes of interest, no proper public sports facilities, no ammenities geared towards their age group, no youth clubs.

Dazey, many areas which are called disadvantaged get priority funding and have the best of facilities.
More facilites then better off areas

Ballyfermot in Dublin is an example, a fantastic leisure center for the community was open in the last few years. Parks everywhere!
Until recently a large library. Lots of sports teams and nightcourses, I could keep going.

I and most of ye had none of this growing up

But it doesn't stop some teenagers off the corners where they abuse and even throw beer bottles at people

jesus_thats_gre

tricky D wrote: »

Start with the little things and many of the bigger ones don't evolve. It's called the Broken windows theory. Worked really well in New York.

That or succumb to fatalism.

You should read a book called Freakonomics.

First, the drop in crime in New York began in 1990. By the end of 1993, the rate of property crime and violent crime, including homicides, had already fallen nearly 20 percent. Rudolph Giuliani, however, did not become mayor -- and install [police commissioner William] Bratton -- until early 1994. Crime was well on its way down before either man arrived...

Second, the new police strategies were accompanied by a much more significant change within the police force: a hiring binge. Between 1991 and 2001, the NYPD grew by 45 percent, more than three times the national average. As argued above an increase in the number of police, regardless of new strategies, has been proven to reduce crime... Many of these new police were in fact hired by David Dinkins, the mayor whom Giuliani defeated. Dinkins had been desperate to secure the law-and-order vote, having known all along that his opponent would be Giuliani, a former federal prosecutor...

Most damaging to the claim that New York's police innovations radically lowered crime is one simple and often overlooked fact: crime went down everywhere in the 1990s, not only in New York.

mrsdewinter

dazey wrote: »

Ye you didn't act that way becuase you feared for your life. There is no way you can put that same fear into children in Ireland. Would you like kids to be afraid that THEY might get their heads kicked in? Roles reversed there. Look at the above comment I replied to. These kids have nothing to keep them out of trouble - no compulsary school until eighteen, no after school programmes of interest, no proper public sports facilities, no ammenities geared towards their age group, no youth clubs. What is there left but wandering the streets? It is the Government's responsibilty in the modern country we live in to put these services in place

Daze, are you serious? What facilities were in place when we were growing up? How did we manage to keep ourselves out of trouble? I know what kept me out of trouble: it wasn't "proper sports facilities, amenities geared towards my age group, after-school programmes of interest", it was a healthy respect for the people around me, reinforced by the knowledge that if I stepped out of line, it would be relayed back to my parents, who were firm believers in curtailing my access to paltry 80s-era entertainment if and when I acted the maggot.
Ever hear the phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child?" It takes more than yoof clubs or well-meaning liberal wets who feel these fugwits' perceived pain to make a society where we can walk the streets without being abused.

mrsdewinter

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

You should read a book called Freakonomics.

Hey, thanks for reminding me... Doesn't Gladwell also make the point that the downturn in crime in the 90s was more likely related to the introduction of legal abortion in early-70s US?

Now there's a thought...

Fuinseog

Stink on the inside wrote: »

Were kids that mouthy thirty years ago I wonder?

Im sure they would have been shipped down to Clonmel or somewhere similar to Industrial school.

That would have quietened them methinks.

yes they were, but if they stepped out of line they were sent off to letterfrack and we cant have that now, can we? apparently everyone in these industrial schools were innocent victims.

we are too liberal and PC for our own good.
if you were to take a picture of these gurriers(oops, i should use a more PC term) at work you could be accused of child abuse.

CiaranC

This thread is ridiculous, there have been "gurriers" on the streets of Dublin as long as it has existed. And whiny old gob****es moaning about them just as long.

Fuinseog

But it doesn't stop some teenagers off the corners where they abuse and even throw beer bottles at people[/QUOTE]

they did that to me when I was cycling past. the fact that I had a light on my bike irritated them. they did not expect me to stop and go back to them. there were three of them and one of me, but if it had led to a punch up I would have been the one to blame cos I am an adult and they are ONLY teenagers.

CiaranC

CiaranC wrote: »

This thread is ridiculous, there have been "gurriers" on the streets of Dublin as long as it has existed. And whiny old gob****es moaning about them just as long.

Very true
Bit in bold is bang on the money.

Fuinseog

CiaranC wrote: »

This thread is ridiculous, there have been "gurriers" on the streets of Dublin as long as it has existed. And whiny old gob****es moaning about them just as long.

true, 'the young people of today have no respect' line has been on the go since time began. the OP is not familiar with our ways.

the difference is that years ago if they got mouthy you would box their ears. this is still acceptable in some countries but not here. its similar in vein to the debate on corporal punishment in the humanities forum.

stovelid

Those damned young pups. Makes me wanna holler.

Jay D

:rolleyes:

Inner city, yeah yeah. I suppose it's true to say that inner city children don't get taught manners.

Considering I grew up in Dublin 1 I feel it's fair to say you get elements of good and bad everywhere but what's also interesting is that children who are taught manners still act the maggot when out with their mates, so people, PCs and what have you, STFU and get a life :rolleyes:

Far more harmful people in our society.

xalot

They might just be kids but their actions are really dangerous, I saw a bunch try to push a cyclist into the frozen canal yesterday. I was by myself and was terrified to confront them in case they'd turn on me.
I got absolutey pelted with snowballs by a gang of about 8 the night before when walking from the Luas. I remember having snowball fights as a kid but never pelting strangers.
I figure the best way to deal with it is to ignore them and they'll get bored cos they just want a reaction but feel like I'm being a coward. Anyone any tricks for dealing with them? (apart from running them over with a truck!)

stovelid

I had to threaten a bunch of young lads last night because they were pelting me with snowballs and I was afraid of going on my arse in front of everybody because I was wearing work shoes.

That said, I don't think society will end or that they're bad lads - just kids messing about.

Scambuster

Spot on OP. They are a cancer on the city. Take no **** and don't be afraid to give them a hiding if they are looking for one.

Dudess

Fuinseog wrote: »

if they stepped out of line they were sent off to letterfrack and we cant have that now, can we?

No, we can't. I don't know about you, but I think a childhood lacking in severe beatings and rapes is a GOOD thing. Some kids are little sh1tbags, but no matter what they do, breaking them into nothing and instilling obedience in them through terror is not the answer and will only fuk them up even more. Charming too how you imply the kids in the industrial schools weren't all innocent little victims. No matter what they did before they were placed there (and they could have been right brats) their guardians beating them to a pulp regularly... is worse.
A Dublin man admitted to me once that, yes, he was a little bastid growing up in the inner city back in the '50s - and by god did he pay for it in Letterfrack. The man was choking back the tears as he told me. Messed up to agree with that kind of punishment.

we are too liberal and PC for our own good.

HOW is it anything to do with being liberal and PC?

if you were to take a picture of these gurriers(oops, i should use a more PC term)

Nobody has a problem with you using the term "gurrier" - seriously, it's ok, the impending accusation that you're not being PC is... all in your head.

JosDel

MrChavcore wrote: »

Hey guys.

I have been living in Dublin now for 3 years and its safe to say that whilst I like the city I've failed to fall in love with it due to certain members of society. I'm originally from Cape Town in South Africa but my father is Irish and I have loads of family and spent a lot of holidays here as a kid so it kind of feels like a home from home for me.

The Irish have a reputation for being friendly people and on the whole you are generally welcoming and friendly, but there are obvious exceptions. I lived in quiet Dundrum for 3 years but wanted to move closer to the hussle and bussle of the city. For the last 3 weeks I've been living in Dublin 2, just before George's Street. One thing I have instantly noticed since living in the city is the amount of mouthy kids that walk the streets. I've confronted a fair few who, whilst petrified when confronted, will always become mouthier and braver in larger groups. I have noticed that a lot of people are willing to let these kids run amock without confronting them, which in my opinion only empowers them more. The police don't seem to give a damn and no matter how many repeated calls you make to them they never seem to do anything about these kids who harass working people, students and even tourists. To me they represent a personified version of stray dogs or ferile cats.

I've been told by mouthy little kids that they are "hard" and that they will "kick my head in" which is yet to happen, obviously. They talk the talk but always fail to walk the walk. I'd love to see these kids spend a day in the inner city of Johannesburg or the shanty towns of Cape Town and see how far their mouths get them. Whatever they've seen I've seen worse so please spare me the threats.

What can we do about these little brats!? If the police don't take them pelting cars with snow balls seriously, or throwing stones at peoples windows who do we turn to!? The parents obviously don't give a damn or are completely ignorant to what their kids get up to and it kind of leaves me wondering what can be done!? Do we just go on and accept anti-social behaviour or do we make a concerted effort to supress it!?

I went throught Dalkey on Sunday in a taxi and snowballs were fired at the taxi, just get over it, It's not an inner city problem it's happening all over the country..........

pikachucheeks

MrChavcore wrote: »

I actually have, yes. I used to have to go into the shanty towns to help build houses as part of my schooling.. I've also been held up at gunpoint which was one of the main reasons I decided to leave SA.

My aunt lives over there, in Jo'berg. She's been through a lot of ****, living there, so I can understand why you'd want to move.

I liked your point about seeing how the kids would survive in an environment like that, because the truth is, they wouldn't. If they gave cheek to people like they do here, they could consider themselves lucky to get away with just a beating.

They get away with hassling people here because they walk around in big groups and pick on people smaller than them, often a person on their own - and people have idea how to react.

Plus the law seems to be on their side - If you lose your head and go for them, they're minors (most of them) and you can get in to a hell of a lot more trouble than them.

As you said, OP, I think a lot of them just talk the talk, but I don't think many people are willing to test the water with them to find out.
It's easier to walk on and ignore them than stand up to them and possibly face a whole lot of trouble.

I'm not sure what can be done. Perhaps there already is, but it would be good to have an anti-social section of the guards who were actually willing to sort out all the problems like this, rather than laugh it off.

WindSock

I am surpised there is still council housing in the city after the property boom, you would think they would have been turned into apartments and the inhabitants shipped off to a suburb.

Either way, commenting on how Dublin city kids would survive in places like Johannesburg or Moscow is a bit m00t. At least they aren't holding people up at gunpoint.

Scambuster

WindSock wrote: »

I am surpised there is still council housing in the city after the property boom, you would think they would have been turned into apartments and the inhabitants shipped off to a suburb.

The council in their wisdom sought to keep a diverse mix of communities in the city centre. I would have half the inner city shipped off to some Ballymun V2 myself.

Mister men

deBurcaLiam wrote: »

I know what you mean, and I know the area that your talking about, and they are little **** heads. Just ignore them,

Wrong. Ignoring them is the wrong thing to do.

WindSock

It's a tough call to know when to ignore kids like this or tell them off. Some might get a fright and back off, others might see it as a red rag being waved to a bull and give a chase.

Dudess

Scambuster wrote: »

The council in their wisdom sought to keep a diverse mix of communities in the city centre. I would have half the inner city shipped off to some Ballymun V2 myself.

And you'd like an END to anti social behaviour?

Mister men wrote: »

Wrong. Ignoring them is the wrong thing to do.

Instead you...? Continue?

Scambuster

Dudess wrote: »

And you'd like an END to anti social behaviour?

Instead you...? Continue?

I want it out of sight. Couldn't give a toss what a load of tinkers get up to in some dumpy suburb. It would be like Paris but without the racial tensions.

Dudess

Nice. And if their neighbours in that suburb had to put up with abuse from them?

tricky D

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

You should read a book called Freakonomics.

Got the point on the first read.

While true that crime reduced everywhere, NY went from the murder capital to way down the list relatively speaking. It's a good theory Bill, not great theory.

Coriolanus

Introduce an abortificant into the water supply of all major towns and give out the antidote to anyone who isn't a dickhead.

Edit: Defining "isn't a dickhead" as anyone who has passed their Parenting Theory Test at an approved testing centre.