Wikileaks - Leaked report on Shannon

Spacedog

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/201012011944/cable/2006/09/06DUBLIN1020.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1201/wikileaks.html

Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
06DUBLIN1020 2006-09-05 14:02 2010-11-30 16:04 CONFIDENTIAL Embassy Dublin

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RHEFDIA/DIA WASHINGTON DC
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHDC
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C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 001020

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 01/31/2015
TAGS: MARR MOPS PREL EAIR PTER EI
SUBJECT: EMERGING CONSTRAINTS ON U.S. MILITARY TRANSITS AT
SHANNON

REF: A. DUBLIN 891

¶B. DUBLIN 709
¶C. USDAO DUBLIN EI U-0011-06

Classified By: Ambassador James C. Kenny; Reasons 1.4 (B) and (D).

¶1. (C) This is an action request. Please see para 10.

¶2. (C) Summary: Although supportive of continued U.S.
military transits at Shannon Airport, the Irish Government
has informally begun to place constraints on U.S. operations
at the facility, mainly in response to public sensitivities
over U.S. actions in the Middle East. Shannon remains a key
transit point for U.S. troops and materiel bound for theaters
in the global war on terror, while yielding diplomatic
benefits for the Irish Government and significant revenues
for the airport and regional economy. Segments of the Irish
public, however, see the airport as a symbol of Irish
complicity in perceived U.S. wrongdoing in the Gulf/Middle
East and in regard to extraordinary renditions, a view that
underpinned a recent jury decision to acquit the "Shannon
Five" protesters who damaged a U.S. naval aircraft. The
Irish Government has repeatedly defended U.S. interests in
the face of public criticism, but has recently introduced
more cumbersome notification requirements for
equipment-related transits in the wake of the Lebanon
conflict. These requirements, which entail a more expansive
interpretation of munitions of war, are designed to give the
Irish Government mor latitude to decide on allowable
transits, accoring to a senior Department of Foreign Affairs
oficial. We suspect that the Government aims with tese new
constraints to dampen public criticism ahead of the 2007
general elections, and we would apreciate Department
gudance on a USG response, including on any next steps
regarding the Shannon Five. End summary.

Shannon: Significant Benefits and Sensitivities

---

--

¶3. (SBU) U.S. military access to Shannon Airport in western
Ireland is among the most tangible benefits of traditionally
strong U.S.-Irish relations. For the United States,
geography makes Shannon a key transit point for military
flights and military contract flights carrying personnel and
materiel to Iraq and the Middle East/Gulf theater in the
global war on terror, as well as to Europe and Africa. In
2005, roughly 340,000 U.S. troops passed through Shannon on
nearly 2,500 contract carrier flights; about 450
equipment-related/distinguished-visitor transit milair
flights and thousands of airspace overflights also took
place. Approximately 220,000 troops have transited to date
this year. For Ireland, U.S. military transits not only
demonstrate bilateral cooperation in support of U.S.
objectives in the Gulf/Middle East, but also generate
significant revenue for Shannon Airport and the regional
economy. In 2005, the airport turned a euro 2.9 million
profit after earning roughly euro 10.3 million from services
for transit flights, including landing, parking, catering,
and fuel. The economic gains for the Shannon area are less
easily calculated, but would include, at a minimum, payments
for hotels, food/beverages, transportation, and cultural
activities that come with 8-10 overnight stops per year for
roughly 200 soldiers each time. (Revenues may fall in 2006,
as World Airways, a DOD-contract carrier, has begun to
transfer operations from Shannon to its Leipzig hub for
internal logistical reasons.)

¶4. (SBU) For segments of the Irish public, however, the
visibility of U.S. troops at Shannon has made the airport a
symbol of Irish complicity in perceived U.S. wrongdoing in
the Gulf/Middle East. This popular sentiment was manifest in
the July 25 jury decision to acquit the "Shannon Five," a
group of anti-war protesters who damaged a U.S. naval
aircraft at the airport in 2003 in the belief that they would
prevent loss of life in Iraq (ref A). Members of the Shannon
Five have subsequently called for a mass demonstration in
Dublin on September 23 (capitalizing on publicity for the
September 21-24 Ryder Cup tournament and the return of
university students) as part of a campaign to "demilitarize"
the airport. Although it is by no means clear that any
protest will reach "mass" proportions, participation in the
planned protest will likely draw from a vocal anti-war lobby
that has demonstrated against U.S. use of Shannon from the
start of the Iraq War up through the recent Lebanon conflict.

DUBLIN 00001020 002 OF 003


In late 2005/early 2006, EU-wide debate on extraordinary
renditions similarly galvanized this lobby, and the Irish
public generally, to question U.S. military access to the
airport.

The Irish Government and Shannon

---

¶5. (C) The Irish Government consistently has acted to ensure
continued U.S. military transits at Shannon in the face of
public criticism. Since the Shannon Five decision, for
example, Irish authorities have upgraded airport security,
doubling the number of police and military personnel
patrolling the facility and introducing rigorous checks at
the parking lot and perimeter fence. (The upgrade is also
partly a response to possible Islamic extremist threats.)
Moreover, despite a general Government reluctance to
challenge independent court decisions, Defense Minister
Willie O'Dea and governing Fianna Fail party politicians have
publicly questioned the legal merits of the Shannon Five jury
decision. These public statements track with representations
to the Irish Parliament by Government ministers over recent
years and months in defense of U.S. practices at Shannon,
including by Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern, who cited U.S.
assurances on renditions this past year to rebuff calls for
random aircraft checks. In parliamentary debate this spring,
Minister of State for Europe, Noel Treacy, dismissed renewed
calls for random inspections following the transit of a U.S.
military prisoner that occurred without prior notification to
the Irish Government (ref .

¶6. (C) Notwithstanding its general support for U.S.
interests, the Irish Government has more recently begun to
place limits on certain forms of U.S. transits at Shannon.
On August 15, the Irish Department of Transport informally
advised Post by e-mail that all military equipment, including
HMMWVs and trucks, were to be considered "munitions of war,"
requiring prior notification to the Transport Department and
exemption waivers for transshipment. In addition to
diplomatic clearance requests for state aircraft, we have
heretofore provided notification for troop transits (with
accompanying weapons), hazmat, and actual weapons/munitions,
but not non-lethal military articles. The Transport
Department notice followed upon the Department of Foreign
Affairs (DFA) oral but definitive decision during the Lebanon
conflict to forbid U.S. military transits carrying munitions
to Israel, a policy that DFA did not convey to Post before
informing the media. Indications of this trend to constrain
U.S. operations at Shannon first arose in the context of the
extraordinary renditions issue. In late 2005, for instance,
the DFA informally denied a DHS deportation transit through
Shannon of convicted foreign nationals from the United States
out of apparent concern that the public would misread the
transit as a rendition.

¶7. (C) In an August 30 meeting with the DCM and emboff, DFA
Political Director Rory Montgomery said that the Department
of Transport's more encompassing approach to munitions of war
and notification requirements reflected the Irish
Government's interest in knowing the full scope of military
materiel transiting Ireland. He recalled that the February
shipment through Shannon of U.S. Apache helicopters to/from
Israel, which the U.S. contract carrier had not listed as
munitions of war, elicited parliamentary criticism and
highlighted the need for clarity about the nature of materiel
in transit (ref C). More expansive notification requirements
that would apply to all countries would "make it easier" for
the Irish Government to decide on allowable shipments, while
remaining predisposed to respond quickly and positively to
U.S. transit requests, said Montgomery. He added that the
DFA would recommend that the Department of Transport consult
with Post in the process of clarifying and publishing
guidance on munitions of war. The DCM noted Post's intention
to confer with the Transport Department, and he emphasized
that broader notification requirements would make it more
cumbersome to process materiel shipments, with the
possibility that U.S. military planners would consider
alternatives to Shannon as a transit hub.

Comment and Action Request

---

¶8. (C) Comment: Irish sensitivities generally about foreign
military usage of the airport often make any inadvertent

DUBLIN 00001020 003 OF 003


breaches of Ireland's restrictive rules on foreign military
transits more visible and problematic. A neutral country,
Ireland has no military attache system, no SOFA for U.S.
activities, and strict rules regarding weapons transits and
the wearing of foreign military uniforms. Occasional and
inadvertent breaches of weapons and uniform policies, like
"failure" to notify transiting prisoners (ref and military
equipment, are met with public and press scrutiny, but also
with Government understanding. Any incident, however, that
becomes the cause for a public debate about the U.S. use of
Shannon will likely add pressure on the Government. Embassy
has sought to manage the policy issues, notification
requirements, and the coordination of transiting flights,
overflights, refuelings, crew rest overnights, and equipment
failure overnights with existing DAO and civilian Embassy
resources on the ground. With the help of extra TDY support
to the DAO office and a TDY EUCOM presence at Shannon airport
(which is three-and-a-half hours from Dublin), we have
managed the occasional problems adequately and well.

¶9. (C) More comment: We intend to engage other ranking DFA,
Transport, and Irish Defense Department officials, upon their
return from the August holiday period, on the reasons for new
constraints at Shannon, particularly the novel interpretation
of munitions of war and its application to other countries
(Russian transits to Venezuela, for instance). The Irish
public's overwhelming opposition to Israeli military actions
in Lebanon has exacerbated the governing Fianna Fail party's
sensitivity to public criticism ahead of Ireland's May 2007
general elections. The major opposition party, Fine Gael,
supports continued U.S. military use of Shannon, but the
Labour Party and the Green Party, Fine Gael's opposition
partners, favor a review, if not reversal, of Irish policy on
U.S. transits. Against this political backdrop, U.S.
missteps at Shannon could easily become campaign grist, a
Fianna Fail concern that mid-level DFA officials have cited
in informal discussions with Post. Compliance with the new
rules (entailing notification for almost any U.S. military
equipment transiting), if feasible from the U.S. logistical
perspective, will require a higher order of coordination
among TRANSCOM, Air Mobility Command, TACC, and the contract
carriers.

¶10. (C) Action request: We would appreciate input from the
Department and other USG agencies for our planned follow-on
discussions with Irish officials on Shannon. Embassy will
diplomatically pursue the most workable arrangements possible
with Irish officials, but we would appreciate Washington's
judgment as to whether the process of notification of almost
everything of a military nature (including by contract
carriers) through Shannon is becoming too difficult to make
the airport a preferred transit stop. Guidance is also
requested regarding the Shannon Five decision, an outcome
that DFA Political Director Montgomery described as "bizarre"
and presumably not precedential. Our understanding is that
the case, as a criminal matter, has run its course, as there
is no possibility to appeal a jury decision under Irish law.
There may be an option to pursue the case as a civil matter,
and Post would need authorization and funding to contact
local attorneys about this possibility. Another option would
be to present an itemized bill for aircraft damages to the
Irish Government, either to seek compensation outright or, at
least, to convey USG dissatisfaction with the Shannon Five
verdict.
KENNY

Biggins

LOL
You haven't heard the one then about Sarkosy attacking the Russian Forigne Minister then?

WikiLeaks: furious Sarkozy ‘physically attacked Russian Foreign Minister’

An enraged President Sarkozy physically attacked the Russian Foreign Minister during heated negotiations to end the Kremlin’s occupation of Georgia, according to a leaked diplomatic cable.

Mr Sarkozy grabbed Sergei Lavrov by the lapels of his jacket and screamed abuse at him during a “confrontational” meeting with President Medvedev in Moscow, according to the memo.

The report by John Beyrle, the US Ambassador in Moscow, recounted attempts by Mr Sarkozy to persuade Mr Medvedev to withdraw Russian troops after the 2008 war over South Ossetia. Philippe Lefort, a senior French diplomat, told US colleagues that the mood was “at times openly hostile”.

Mr Beyrle added: “Sarkozy at one point grabbed FM Lavrov by the lapels and called him a liar in very strong terms, reacting to Lavrov’s denial that Russia had failed to comply with its previous withdrawal commitments.

“Lefort said that Sarkozy had arrived with a ‘take it or leave it attitude, very American in style and confrontational’, and the Russians had responded icily.”

Mr Sarkozy led the European Union’s mission to end the conflict because France held the EU’s rotating presidency at that time. The French told the US that the Kremlin had been openly dismissive of the head of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, during the tense discussions.

“The French attributed this to the Russian view that Barroso is basically a glorified international civil servant ‘not worthy to be in the Czar’s presence’.”

US diplomats expressed concern in a separate cable that Italy might try to prevent Nato condemning the invasion because of the close personal friendship between Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian Prime Minister, and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin. A confidential report by Ronald Spogli, the US Ambassador in Rome, warned that Italy was “not likely to be helpful” if a statement from the North Atlantic Council criticised Russian actions in Georgia. It suggested that Mr Putin was using Mr Berlusconi to divide the military alliance and to block punitive actions by the EU.

Mr Beyrle noted that Mr Putin had not attended the meeting with Mr Sarkozy in Moscow, but had been “at his toughest” in talks with Russian journalists, where he had described President Saakashvili of Georgia as “likely insane”. Mr Putin insisted that the West could not “intimidate us”.

The conflict over Georgia’s breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia provoked the biggest crisis in relations between Russia and the West since the Cold War. Moscow accused Mr Saakashvili of starting the war but sent bomber aircraft, tanks and thousands of troops into Georgia, to reach within 20 miles of the capital, Tbilisi.

Mr Sarkozy brokered a ceasefire but Russia recognised the two regions as independent states and has stationed thousands of troops on their territories, which continue to be recognised internationally as part of Georgia.

Mr Putin hit back at American diplomats yesterday for describing him and President Medvedev as the Batman and Robin of Russian politics. Mr Putin warned the United States not to interfere in Russia’s affairs after leaked diplomatic reports described his country as a “mafia state”. He called Robert Gates, the Defence Secretary, “deeply misled” for observing in one cable that “Russian democracy has disappeared and the government was an oligarchy run by the security services”.

Mr Putin said in an interview with CNN’s Larry King Live that the Batman and Robin comparison “aimed to slander one of us” and added: “This is about our interaction, an important factor of the domestic policies in this country.”

He also said that “our American friends” routinely told Russia not to interfere when it criticised aspects of the US presidential election system. He said: “We are not interfering. But to our colleagues, I would also like to advise you, don’t interfere either \ the sovereign choice of the Russian people.”

Washington was warned by Mr Beyrle that it could not afford to ignore Mr Putin, despite President Obama’s efforts to build a relationship with Mr Medvedev. Mr Beryle said that Mr Putin was “still holding the reins” in deciding whether he or Mr Medvedev would run for the presidency in 2012, and would have the “final word”. He added that Putin “will continue to have a significant say in Russian affairs”.

He illustrated his point with a Moscow joke that has Mr Medvedev sitting in the driver’s seat of a car with no steering wheel. When he asks Mr Putin where it is, Putin pulls a remote control out of his pocket and says, “I’ll be the one doing the driving”.

The English Times today.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article2829261.ece

jd007

Anyone wanna do a quick summary?

Biggins

jd007 wrote: »

Anyone wanna do a quick summary?

Diplomatic cables leaked by Wikileaks seem to indicate that US diplomats believed that the Irish Government tried to clamp down on the use of Shannon Airport for military purposes as a political ploy ahead of the last general election.

Thats FF for you! Any trick in the book when its convenient at the time!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1201/wikileaks.html

Spacedog

...also WikiLeaks Under Fire After Spoilers For Next Batman Film Leaked

...and Julian Assange Accidently Leaks Own Secret Location

Nodin

Cable wrote:

..............inadvertent breaches of weapons and uniform policies, like "failure" to notify transiting prisoners (ref and military
equipment, are met with public and press scrutiny

I'd imagine the quotation marks are indicative of the situation there.

Mind you, it does show the power of public pressure and no small degree of success on the part of those protesting Shannons use.

orourkeda

How on earth did Wikileaks obtain cables like these?

How would they have got them without doing something illegal(e.g hacking or someone leaking classified documents)

Something not quite right about this.

Was Julian Assange a hacker at one point in his life.

Nodin

orourkeda wrote: »

How on earth did Wikileaks obtain cables like these?

How would they have got them without doing something (e.g hacking or someone leaking classified documents)

Something not quite right about this.

...because all cables were kept in a database. Access to said database was available to suprisingly low ranking individuals, one of whom copied a whack of them onto a CD and gave it over to Wiki.

Conor108

PFC Bradley Manning (US Army) had unrestricted access to the database for hours a day for months in a facility near Baghdad or somewhere. He copied the files onto a Lady Gaga CD and posted it to Wikileaks headquarters. He's been in jail for a good while now

Sticky_Fingers

What worries me more is the amount of spelling mistakes present in the cables. If anything like that was posted on AH the Grammar Nazis would eat them alive, they should be thankful they only have to deal with Assagne.

Run_to_da_hills

What dose Julian Assange drive? ................


.........A cable car. :pac:

Conor108

Speaking of Julian Assange, Interpol have put a red notice out on him for alleged sex crimes.

orourkeda

Nodin wrote: »

...because all cables were kept in a database. Access to said database was available to suprisingly low ranking individuals, one of whom copied a whack of them onto a CD and gave it over to Wiki.

Fair enough. I wasnt aware of that.

It shouldnt really b e a surprise that there were so many of the documents leaked so.

Nodin

orourkeda wrote:

Was Julian Assange a hacker at one point in his life.

If it was due to hacking by Wiki itself, they'd have been able to shut the whole thing down as theres laws against that kind of thing.

Conor108 wrote: »

PFC Bradley Manning (US Army) had unrestricted access to the database for hours a day for months in a facility near Baghdad or somewhere. He copied the files onto a Lady Gaga CD and posted it to Wikileaks headquarters. He's been in jail for a good while now

Can never remember his name....52 years he's facing.

Nodin

orourkeda wrote: »

Fair enough. I wasnt aware of that.

It shouldnt really b e a surprise that there were so many of the documents leaked so.

Nope. Ye wouldn't think a relatively inexperienced young fella would be allowed near the like of it in such a way.

Conor108

Nodin wrote: »

Can never remember his name....52 years he's facing.

Yeah and he's only 21 or 22 if I recall. He knew what he was doing though.

pwd

The only thing that surprises me is how little money we've been getting for it. I thought there would have been a substantial payment somewhere. From what this says, the only money coming to us normal revenue from services.

PeakOutput

so what they are saying is......what they were doing at shannon is exactly what they and the goverment told us they were doing at shannon?

excellent the krusty protesters were wrong again

PeakOutput

pwd wrote: »

The only thing that surprises me is how little money we've been getting for it. I thought there would have been a substantial payment somewhere. From what this says, the only money coming to us normal revenue from services.

well why would they pay anything extra unless we asked them to? they are just flights passing through so they pay the same prices as everyone else. i think it would reflect badly on goverment (and bear with me here as this is going to sound ridicolous given the current state of affairs) if they were to accept extra money for this type of thing, it would imply our morals / beliefs / goverment decisions can be bought

Liam Byrne

Biggins wrote: »

Thats FF for you! Any trick in the book when its convenient at the time!

The true FF meaning of "we have turned a corner".......the omission of the "u" was just a typo.

Mind you, it did - nearly - result in FF doing something that I agreed with for once.

It almost makes it a pity that they'll be decimated at the next election; I mean, if election campaigns make them u-turn on their despicable actions, they might actually renege on NAMA & Anglo next January!

Nodin

Conor108 wrote: »

Yeah and he's only 21 or 22 if I recall. He knew what he was doing though.

O he did, but I don't think - looking at the way he was caught - he fully realised just how deep the ****e he was getting into was going to be. He seems to have been fired up primarily by what he saw in some Iraq related documents, with regards to targeting people who were just criticising the Iraqi government.

The only thing that surprises me is how little money we've been getting for it. I thought there would have been a substantial payment somewhere. From what this says, the only money coming to us normal revenue from services

That was just bullshit put out for ammunition to the 'o well, we need the cash' argument.

IamtheWalrus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What dose Julian Assange drive? ................


.........A cable car. :pac:

You can't be serious...

Overheal

jd007 wrote: »

Anyone wanna do a quick summary?

Nothing groundbreaking: Irish bureaucratic pressure is increasing the effort involved in using Shannon as a strategic logistics point. The cable is addressed to a superior in Washington from the Embassy in Dublin to inform them and request advisement on how to handle the evolving situation in Shannon (see last paragraph)

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

so what they are saying is......what they were doing at shannon is exactly what they and the goverment told us they were doing at shannon?

excellent the krusty protesters were wrong again

The Government told us they were renditioning people through shannon? Some people have an amazing way of missing the point. The Government denied that rendition was going on, and was caught out later on when it was shown that it in fact was. And from the cable

..............inadvertent breaches of weapons and uniform policies, like "failure" to notify transiting prisoners (ref and military
equipment, are met with public and press scrutiny

it looks like there was 'Don't tell, don't ask' going on with regards to that same issue. With regards to the "krusty protesters" it appears that yes, they were right that the US regarded the Shannon stop over as significant (it was put out that it wasn't and we should just shut up and take the money), that rendition was going on and that raising awareness of the issues caused sufficient public pressure for an actual shift in Government attitude.

PeakOutput

Nodin wrote: »

The Government told us they were renditioning people through shannon? Some people have an amazing way of missing the point. The Government denied that rendition was going on, and was caught out later on when it was shown that it in fact was. And from the cable



it looks like there was 'Don't tell, don't ask' going on with regards to that same issue. With regards to the "krusty protesters" it appears that yes, they were right that the US regarded the Shannon stop over as significant (it was put out that it wasn't and we should just shut up and take the money), that rendition was going on and that raising awareness of the issues caused sufficient public pressure for an actual shift in Government attitude.

transiting prisoners is not rendition

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

Thats FF for you! Any trick in the book when its convenient at the time!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1201/wikileaks.html

It was just the opinion of the diplomats in question....

I wouldn't even call it newsworthy

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

transiting prisoners is not rendition

Would the phrasing 'transitioning renditioned prisoners' meet with your approval?

Banji

Why are they called cables?

PeakOutput

Nodin wrote: »

Would the phrasing 'transitioning renditioned prisoners' meet with your approval?

extraordinary rendition is the extrajudicial transfer of a person from one nation to another.

there is nothing in that document which suggests it was happening at shannon, just because they were talking about prisoners does not mean it was extraordinary rendition.

im not saying it definitely didnt happen im just saying that this secret document does not refer to it at all and that from that document it appears we were told exactly what was happening after all, now if another document shows up that says they were illegally kidnapping terrorists and illegally transporting them to countries that use torture through shannon then fair enough

Snakeblood

orourkeda wrote: »

How on earth did Wikileaks obtain cables like these?

How would they have got them without doing something illegal(e.g hacking or someone leaking classified documents)

Something not quite right about this.

Was Julian Assange a hacker at one point in his life.

3 million people have had access to these files.

Wompa1

So far the Wikileaks have been very boring. It's like Reading my work e-mails for feck sake. It's a professional narrative tone the whole way not one reference to our pixie heads or ugly children...come on! Everything is so PC tell us what you really think!

Biggins

Wompa1 wrote: »

So far the Wikileaks have been very boring....

Well Sarkozy physically attacking the Russian Foreign Minister kinda brings life to it! :pac:

Sticky_Fingers

Not to mention the revelations concerning the Russians and the manufactured war with Georgia and the possible collusion of Obama and Clinton in the overthrow of the Honduras government (thats kinda a big deal, impeachment big).

There is so much information contained in these leaks that its hard to even register the importance of each before another bombshell is dropped, keep them coming Wikileaks:pac:

Overheal

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Not to mention the revelations concerning the Russians and the manufactured war with Georgia and the possible collusion of Obama and Clinton in the overthrow of the Honduras government (thats kinda a big deal, impeachment big).

Name one US Presidency that was impeached for overthrowing or tampering with a foreign government. Honestly. One.

It's interesting, but it's not "Impeachment Big". I would think sampling and cataloging DNA from UN diplomats in New York and mining their passwords would be a much bigger concern even.

Sticky_Fingers

Overheal wrote: »

Name one US Presidency that was impeached for overthrowing or tampering with a foreign government. Honestly. One.

It's interesting, but it's not "Impeachment Big". I would think sampling and cataloging DNA from UN diplomats in New York and mining their passwords would be a much bigger concern even.

You know I can't because the US people and government have a nasty long established habit of overlooking illegal activity just as long as it serves their own interests.
If true it is "Impeachment Big" (I like your use of capitals by the way:rolleyes:) if the rule of law was properly applied and the US people and government stopped thinking of the world as their own personal sandbox in which they can crap wherever they like.

pwd

PeakOutput wrote: »

well why would they pay anything extra unless we asked them to? they are just flights passing through so they pay the same prices as everyone else. i think it would reflect badly on goverment (and bear with me here as this is going to sound ridicolous given the current state of affairs) if they were to accept extra money for this type of thing, it would imply our morals / beliefs / goverment decisions can be bought

Well yes - that's why I expected it to be something done in secret.

The thing is the use of Shannon as a military base for the war in iraq never did represent our morals or beliefs. The majority of Irish people have been opposed to it all along.

Therefore I thought there must be more to it - ie: that we were getting some sort of bigger pay-off for it behind the scenes.

But this report seems like something that would detail that, if it were the case - and it doesn't. Hence my surprise.

KyussBishop

Also, Amazon have pulled the plug on their hosting of the main WikiLeaks website (which was through a datacenter here in Ireland I believe).

Quite a lot of people are calling for a boycott of Amazon over this; I won't be buying from them myself for the forseeable future (if ever again).
Pretty bad time for them to pull a shít move like this too, coming up to Christmas.

Overheal

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

You know I can't because the US people and government have a nasty long established habit of overlooking illegal activity just as long as it serves their own interests.

Was it actually illegal? You would have to fill me in on how exactly they overthrew the government. Black Ops and Assassinations are one thing, giving support to an opposition party is another. The form of support is also important to note.

From what I can gather briefly, the US didn't give them money. didn't give them weapons, didn't assassinate or kidnap anybody, didn't step in. In fact where Honduras is concerned we didn't do anything. As the Cable in question points out in summary, the coup was illegal yet the constitution of Honduras did not appear to be equipped for impeaching the executive branch in a legal faction. Short version: Honduras was FUBAR either way: read the cable for specifics.

Eventually Hillary Clinton resigned to acknowledging the results of the subsequent elections, after the coup. Hardly Watergate or the Pentagon Papers.

Overheal

KyussBishop wrote: »

Also, Amazon have pulled the plug on their hosting of the main WikiLeaks website (which was through a datacenter here in Ireland I believe).

Quite a lot of people are calling for a boycott of Amazon over this; I won't be buying from them myself for the forseeable future (if ever again).
Pretty bad time for them to pull a shít move like this too, coming up to Christmas.

Wikileaks isn't going to go down because amazon steps out. But Amazon is a US Based company and it does have to worry about being shut down itself, especially as you say, in the short term leading through christmas. Being offline for the most important parts of Q4 and Q1 would pretty much be the end of them: they rely on the revenue from the holidays to live.

in the longer term, Wikileaks could become bulletproof thanks to recent developments in the battle against Internet Piracy: ICANN is the organisation responsible for handling DNS domains (.org, .com, .ie, etc.) and they are part of the US Department of Commerce...

http://gizmodo.com/5702432/bittorrent+based-domains-could-make-sites-invincible-against-government-seizure

anywho, they've been shutting down the domain names of a laundry list of torrent sites lately and in response, Pirate Codemasters are going to try to implement a new Domain system based on BitTorrent protocol itself, which would make the websites effectively decentralized. You would have to imagine that instead of downloading a thread in After hours off of the main boards.ie server to read it, you'd download it from someone else in the bittorrent swarm*. I suppose the web address themselves would work like Trackers.

tl;dr - boycotting Amazon is silly, they have too much to lose and Wikileaks won't die from their absence.

*probably wouldn't work for a message-board site, but great for something Read-Only like Wikileaks, torrent indexes, etc.

KyussBishop

Ya I've been keeping an eye on the DNS seizure thing myself; unfortunately the P2P DNS type thing has been tried before, and didn't work out too well due to the architecture of how DNS updating works.

I believe the total (uncompressed) size of the full DNS listings might consist of tens or hundreds of terabytes of data (can't find any official figures but it's what I estimate based on domain counts), so any P2P system is going to have large issues when it comes to responsiveness (DNS resolving needs to be very fast), in addition to architectural issues.

The issue with the Amazon pulling of the WikiLeaks domain, is that they didn't even give a hint of resistance to that, it was completely voluntary; there is no chance in hell that the US would shut down Amazon, even for a temporary period, because the ****storm they'd have to endure because of that alone would likely dwarf anything caused by WikiLeaks so far.

SamHarris

Wompa1 wrote: »

So far the Wikileaks have been very boring. It's like Reading my work e-mails for feck sake. It's a professional narrative tone the whole way not one reference to our pixie heads or ugly children...come on! Everything is so PC tell us what you really think!

Yeah, I was hoping Hillary would be requesting an invite to one of SIlvio's bunga bunga parties.

Basically this document shows the US was interested in keeping Shannon open for its troops, and talked with the Irish government to try and ensure it. Wow.

I'm starting to get a little bored of this drip drip, no real news stuff. If they got something big, hit us with it. The news cycle is ticking.

SamHarris

KyussBishop wrote: »

Also, Amazon have pulled the plug on their hosting of the main WikiLeaks website (which was through a datacenter here in Ireland I believe).

Quite a lot of people are calling for a boycott of Amazon over this; I won't be buying from them myself for the forseeable future (if ever again).
Pretty bad time for them to pull a shít move like this too, coming up to Christmas.

Doubt it will matter to Amazon much; the people of the US were ambiguous over the last 2 releases (sometihng like 60% tought it was a good thing) but this time, most see it as just damaging to US interests, without contributing to public discourse (75% see it as a bad thing, last I checked, and that was on a CNN poll).

Amazon, and any major company for that matter will care a hell of a lot more what the majority of Americans think of thier actions than what the Europeans think, and thats assuming most europeans will even give a sh*t.

Hobbes

So the interesting bit I got from that.
- Irish Government were somewhat scared of public viewpoint.
- They did try to restrict in some cases items used for War which the US didn't like.
- The US was pissed about the outcome of the trial of the Shannon 5, and thought to make the Irish taxpayers foot the bill because they didn't win the case.
- Seems to hint at weapons from Russia to Venezuela sent via Ireland? (doesn't say what)

SamHarris

Hobbes wrote: »

So the interesting bit I got from that.
- Irish Government were somewhat scared of public viewpoint.
- They did try to restrict in some cases items used for War which the US didn't like.
- The US was pissed about the outcome of the trial of the Shannon 5, and thought to make the taxpayers foot the bill because they didn't win the case.
- Seems to hint at weapons from Russia to Venezuela sent via Ireland? (doesn't say what)

Better way to put it is they considered civil litagation against the Shanonn five, but didnt bother.

Also interesting, it mentions that this is one of the only tangible benefits for the US in its good relations with Ireland. Eep.

Nodin

PeakOutput wrote: »

extraordinary rendition is the extrajudicial transfer of a person from one nation to another.

there is nothing in that document which suggests it was happening at shannon, just because they were talking about prisoners does not mean it was extraordinary rendition.

im not saying it definitely didnt happen im just saying that this secret document does not refer to it at all and that from that document it appears we were told exactly what was happening after all, now if another document shows up that says they were illegally kidnapping terrorists and illegally transporting them to countries that use torture through shannon then fair enough

The document would indicate that prisoners went through there, as highlighted previously. Planes involved in rendition undeniably did.

In the cases of four men, Abu Omar, Khaled al Maqtari, Khaled el Masri and Binyam Mohamed CIA agents used Shannon Airport as a launching pad for rendition ...

http://www.amnesty.ie/our-work/end-use-shannon-torture-flight

EU: The European Parliament is expected to censure the Government strongly for allegedly failing to respond adequately to the rendition of terrorist suspects by the CIA. The Government rejects a report from the parliament as "political point scoring".
The parliament will also urge the Government to set up a parliamentary inquiry to investigate the use of Irish airports by the CIA as part of its rendition circuit in a final report due to be published next month.
MEPs investigating the illegal transfer and detention of suspects by the CIA in Europe, voted yesterday to strengthen the draft report's criticism of the Government, and specifically, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern. The report now notes that Mr Ahern "failed to answer all the questions in relation to the concerns that Irish airports may have been used by CIA aircraft travelling to or from extraordinary rendition".

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2007/0124/1169426831962.html

Son Of A Vidic

Since this little nation has already abdicated it's sovereignty to the ECB/IMF, I couldn't care less about the Shannon stop over issue.

Mark200

Nodin wrote: »

The document would indicate that prisoners went through there, as highlighted previously. Planes involved in rendition undeniably did.

There's a difference between prisoner transfer and extraordinary rendition.

KyussBishop

A lot of good stuff mentioned on WikiLeaks from here, as well as brief mention in support of an Amazon boycott at the end:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/01/lieberman/index.html

karma_

medicman2009 wrote: »

Since this little nation has already abdicated it's sovereignty to the ECB/IMF, I couldn't care less about the Shannon stop over issue.

Did you before?

Spacedog

Here's an example of the type of "prisoner transfers"
that (according to amnesty international) Ireland has been facilitating through Shannon Airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hh-877s01U

likewise, the german government have been coerced to sweeping this case under the rug for unspecified "diplomatic benifets".

Manic Moran

Nodin wrote: »

Nope. Ye wouldn't think a relatively inexperienced young fella would be allowed near the like of it in such a way.

Inexperience has very little to do with it. It doesn't take much experience to know that downloading and distributing classified materials is going to land you in jail. He obviously knew it, hence the Lady GaGa CD subterfuge.

It's the old problem of security vs usefulness. Information is useless unless it gets to the people who need to know it., which means it needs to be accessible. The problem is that the more people who have access, the less secure it's going to be. The 'opening up' of the information from the various departments was a result of 9/11, when it was determined after the fact that the US had all the information, just the people who needed to know it to put the facts together didn't have access due to security policies.

The only thing that surprises me is how little money we've been getting for it. I thought there would have been a substantial payment somewhere. From what this says, the only money coming to us normal revenue from services.

I guess you could get some relative good-will from the US in future dealings, but ultimately, Shannon's running a business, and the charter airlines are using it for the business benefits. Note that two of the carriers moved to Leipzig for cost reasons, you want to add more cost on top of what Shannon already charge?

it looks like there was 'Don't tell, don't ask' going on with regards to that same issue

Would the phrasing 'transitioning renditioned prisoners' meet with your approval

You're misreading it. The "Failure" (Ref was of a normal military prisoner transfer, not an 'extraordinary rendition'. The reason it's in quotes is that there was a perception of it having been a civil prisoner which should have been notified. What had happened, if you don't recall, was a cleaning crew went onto the airplane, saw a man in shackles, went breathlessly to the media it was reported nationally as a case of extraordinary rendition passing through Shannon. It was actually a serviceman who was being sent to the US after breaking military law.

Planes involved in rendition undeniably did.

If there was nobody and nothing undeclared and unlawful at the time the aircraft was in Shannon, there's not much to complain about.
If I might make an analogy, a known bank robber drives up to a Garda checkpoint. The Garda knows who he is, but he's got a good driver's license, the car has its tax, insurance and NCT disks, and there's no shotgun in the back seat. The Garda must let him on his way.

there is no chance in hell that the US would shut down Amazon, even for a temporary period, because the ****storm they'd have to endure because of that alone would likely dwarf anything caused by WikiLeaks so far.

Oh, they'd do it, even if only pour encourager les autres.

- Seems to hint at weapons from Russia to Venezuela sent via Ireland? (doesn't say what)

Could be most anything. The Venezuelans have gone on a massive arms shopping spree from the Russians in the last couple of years, if it'll fit in an airplane, it may have gone through Shannon. Ever since the Cold War kicked off, Shannon has been 'transit central' for military shipments going from North America to Europe, and Russia to Latin America, the current situation is simply a continuation of very long-standing policy. Some things may not be transitted through Shannon, some may with notification and approval, and some don't need notification. As long as Ireland continues to apply the same rules for everyone, it's business as usual. The US mention of Venezuela is a concern that Ireland may not be acting in a neutral/even-handed manner, and may be stricter on the US than Russia.

NTM