esb meters

the watchman

Hi all,
I watched a programme the other night on green energy in Ireland. Most interesting.
However the bit on these new ESB 'Smart Meters' caught my attention and I'm just wondering if I correctly understood how they work.

The bit I am most interested in is about the recording of usage between 5-7pm. Do the Esb decide what is 'a fair usage ' amount during this period and charge you higher rates if you go over?.

I have a feeling that the above is the case but I am hoping that someone will tell me I'm wrong.

If it is the case then again it is something which does get my blood boiling again with some of these green issues. I am all for saving energy and the planet etc But believe it should not detract from our comfort and way of life. To Quote Obama in his first address as President 'We make no apologies for our way of life but we will find a greener and more sustainable way of doing it'.

So my point is that if you usually use X amount of electricity between 5-7pm and the esb decide that a lower amount is more acceptable 'to them' they will now charge you more. ...Leaves the consumer with three choices.
1, find a way to lower your consumption while not changing your lifestyle activity.
2, Pay more for your usual lifestyle consumption.
3, Lower your lifestyle.

I doubt if many would be able to lower consumption as in item one and the other two options are wholly unacceptable to me.

.....the worlds starting to go backwards don't you think!..

Have agreat day.

Fnergg

What will happen is that ALL your electricity usage between 5pm and 7pm will be charged at a higher rate.

Smart meters can accurately record your usage every 15 minutes and so it allows the supply companies to charge Time Of Day rates - something that is not possible with existing domestic meters. (There is a Nightsaver meter that can record your day and night usage separately but not in more discrete time segments).

The greatest demand for electricity is between 5pm and 7pm and so by charging extra during those hours the idea is that consumers will cut back in usage and thus reduce the need for so much electricity generation in that period.

In that same TV programme the ESB's CEO McManus said that: "the penalty for using electricity between 5pm and 7pm has to be severe in order to force us to change our habits". (For "penalty" read higher prices).

So, we just cut back during those hours and all will be OK, right? Easier said than done. Consider the typical family scenario between 5pm and 7pm: coming home from school and work, getting the tea ready, teen jumping in the shower before going out, mother anxious to get various chores done before the soaps start, etc. Will they suddenly all sit around waiting for 7pm? I very much doubt it.

And in any case, who in the typical family, other than the billpayer, worries about the cost of electricity? I've lost count of the number of times I've read the riot act to my teenage kids about wasting electricity. In one ear and out the other.

I don't think it's going to be that easy to change such habits and so a lot - the majority, probably - of families will be hit with *significantly* higher prices for their electricity usage.

A British survery a few years back showed that the only customers who were able to save money from having smart meters were, typically, middle-aged, single, bearded men who were environmental activists. Probably the type who compile Excel sheets of their hourly usage. And who never get laid.

There has not been an example anywhere in the world where smart meters enabled the majority of customers to save money. The experience has been exactly the opposite.

Google "smart meters, Bakersfield, California" and read about the consumer outcry there over the higher bills after smart meters were fitted to their homes. A couple of weeks ago The Economist cited that case and said it is after giving utilities and Regulators worldwide pause for thought in relation to fitting the meters.

But not of course in Ireland where it is an article of faith by the Regulator and the Green Minister for Energy that they are a good thing. They are a good thing for the utilities (remote disconnections, accurate usage recording, etc) but, mark my words, the average customer will be paying even more - and significantly more - for his/her electricity.


Regards,

Fnergg

Muzu

The ESB and all other utilities will most likely introduce tariffs (once smart meters are installed) which are referred to as Time of Use Tariffs. They could look something like this:
Day: 8am – 5pm & 7pm – 11pm
Peak: 5pm-7pm (most expensive)
Night: 11pm – 8am (cheapest)
Note: We already have a basic Time of Use tariff called the Dual Tariff (Night and Day).

The reason why the Peak time electricity is most expensive is because this is when the most demand on the grid occurs - when people come home from work and switch on lights, ovens to make the dinner and the TV set amongst other appliances. For the utilities to provide enough power for these peak times they have to turn on peaking generation plants which are usually the most expensive to turn on. Hence the cost to provide the electricity at this time of the day is most expensive.

So the ESB will incentivise you to use electricity outside these hours so that it is less expensive for them, and also less expensive for you. It will also incentivise users to use less energy during peak times which might also be more carbon intensive. Smart Meter Roll-out probably will not be happening til between 2015 and 2019 so you wont have to worry about these tariffs til then. It will be a market-based mechanism based on the economic law that supply and demand will determine price.

If you are all for saving the planet and energy then we will all have to make some trade-offs in the comforts of our lives, or use green technology to keep the same comforts while polluting less, which might actually cost some extra money upfront (but less in the long run). Which probably isn’t such a bad thing considering most of us are so comfortable that we’ve become fat, ignorant and selfish – ref Celtic Tiger. If your blood is boiling regarding green issues then you may need some education about the greater good that these issues try to tackle.

In answer to the 3 choices:
Its very easy to lower your consumption – try switching to more efficient appliances or turn off appliances that you don’t really need on. A huge percentage of energy used in the home is not really needed
2.

Electricity is going to get way more expensive if we don’t switch to greener indigenous technologies soon. Ireland currently imports most of its fuel from abroad to power generation plants. Oil is currently at $85 a barrel, think what it will cost when the global recession is over…
3.

I suppose your point boils down to an assumption about ‘lowering lifestyle’ – how would one define this? Is a ‘high’ lifestyle defined as sitting indoors switching on lots of electrical appliances that one may or may not need? Or is a high lifestyle using resources efficiently so they do not become scarce and expensive, so everyone can enjoy them, so we can enjoy the great outdoors in our great country. Our lifestyle wont be so nice when we, or our grandkids, cant breathe the air due to the pollutants from carbon-based fuels.

Our man in Havana

This is already in place for industrial customers. It is called max demand metering.

Fnergg

Haddockman wrote: »

This is already in place for industrial customers. It is called max demand metering.

Yes, industrial customers have special metering that measures their maximum demand for electricity every 15 minutes and during winter time - the time of greatest electricity usage - the demand is only measured between the hours of 5pm and 7pm. That acts as a huge incentive to reduce their usage between those hours. What they invariably do is switch to their own generators for the couple of hours. That of course is not an option for domestic users.

Regards,

Fnergg

Monty Burnz

Just by way of explanation why this is necessary - say average demand during the day (between 5 and 7) is 5GW and the rest of the time it is between 3 and 4GW, you can't just fire up another power station at short notice to give you another GW or two to cover the peak. It takes days to get a power station up to efficient operating levels, not hours. So basically just to cover the peak demand, you have some power stations buring all day every day producing energy that is wasted because it is not used just to meet the level of demand that exists for a couple of hours each day.

By forcing that demand down, they should be able to run a leaner operation at the power stations, saving fuel and CO2 emissions, and theoretically leading to cheaper power.

(i.e. this is not just a racket to screw more money out of customers - although it may be a side effect at least in the short term )

Monty Burnz

Fnergg wrote: »

Yes, industrial customers have special metering that measures their maximum demand for electricity every 15 minutes and during winter time - the time of greatest electricity usage - the demand is only measured between the hours of 5pm and 7pm.

I'm not 100% sure about that - meter readings are taken every 15 minutes year round. Which demand are you referring to when you say it's only measured between 5 and 7?

Just to give an idea how serious the problem with peak demand has been in recent years, in the early 2000s there was a programme introduced whereby companies that reduced their electricity consumption at short notice (if there was a problem at a power station or something) were actually paid by the ESB. Staff at the ESB call centres would have to ring all these companies and ask them to cut their usage - afterwards their demand data was checked and those that cut their usage as asked received a payment (or, in other words a discount on their bill). This was at at time when spare capacity in the system was very small and the ESB resorted to bringing in massive portable generators in the winter to cope with peak demand.

Our man in Havana

During the winter months max demand is only measured between 5 and 7pm. I used to spend the first Monday after the time change in October going around switching all the max demand meters over to winter.

As stated many customers simply opened their main switch between 5 and 7 and used generators rather than pay the max demand charges.

Fnergg

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure about that - meter readings are taken every 15 minutes year round. Which demand are you referring to when you say it's only measured between 5 and 7?

Just to give an idea how serious the problem with peak demand has been in recent years, in the early 2000s there was a programme introduced whereby companies that reduced their electricity consumption at short notice (if there was a problem at a power station or something) were actually paid by the ESB. Staff at the ESB call centres would have to ring all these companies and ask them to cut their usage - afterwards their demand data was checked and those that cut their usage as asked received a payment (or, in other words a discount on their bill). This was at at time when spare capacity in the system was very small and the ESB resorted to bringing in massive portable generators in the winter to cope with peak demand.

As I understand it, there are two schemes designed to incentivise commercial/industrial customers with a Maximum Import Capacity equal or greater than 250kVA to reduce load over the winter months:

• The Winter Peak Demand Reduction Scheme (WPDRS)
• The Winter Demand Reduction Incentive (WDRI)

The latter is for customers of ESB Customer Supply and the former for customers of other suppliers.

The gist of both is the same: reduce your usage between 5pm and 7pm from 8 November to 4 March and benefit financially as a result.

The other scheme you referred to is Powersave which is also administered by Eirgrid. As far as I know, it has usually been implemented when there have been generation problems caused by plant failure and not because of excessive demand. Also, I understand that due to a combination of reduced demand caused by the recession and the coming on stream of new generation plant there is a very comfortable level of generating capacity now available at all times of the year.

For more info on WPDRS, WDRI and Powersave see:

http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-retail-market-current-consultations.aspx?article=6316bf65-4ab3-4ceb-9434-beeb9b8380f6


Regards,

Fnergg

the watchman

Thank you Fenergg for your info on the Smart meters. It will be worse than I thought. Clearly theres nothing I can do or say which will change the things to come. Its not a very nice to feel 'powerless', sorry, pun intended:D.

Clearly there will be some problems when they are installed but after reading the Bakersfield stories one thing I believe could be done without any cost is to leave the old meters 'in line' so that would at least settle the auguments that will be raised by those cutomers who say that their usage has gone up. All the customer need to do is record their usage during the year before the meters go in and then they themselves could check at any given time how much they've used when the smart meters are in place. They will also be able to see if they are being charged more for the same amount of usage.

Thanks again.

watty

The biggest issue is security.

What would stop a "black hat" turning off an estate?

Monty Burnz

watty wrote: »

The biggest issue is security.

What would stop a "black hat" turning off an estate?

The meters just measure demand AIUI, they have nothing to do with supply. That's all very mechanical - and it's why you have to send people somewhere to actually cut off a customer, you can't just flick a switch in HQ.

Our man in Havana

They were developing a main fuse unit that could be operated remotely by a technician in his van. This would put an end to confrontations when supply has to be withdrawn for NPA.

I could tell you some stories of the lengths people went to to prevent ESB from withdrawing supply.

dudara

Moved to Electrical

dudara

sparcocars

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The meters just measure demand AIUI, they have nothing to do with supply. That's all very mechanical - and it's why you have to send people somewhere to actually cut off a customer, you can't just flick a switch in HQ.

There is a feature in the Elster smart meters in use in the trial programme at the moment to remotely disconnect the supply going through the meter from the smart metering HQ. It is not yet decided if this this feature will be utilised for every NPA disconnection.

Our man in Havana

It would be very handy and less dangerous for ESB employees, esp in very dangerous areas.

Davy

sparcocars wrote: »

There is a feature in the Elster smart meters in use in the trial programme at the moment to remotely disconnect the supply going through the meter from the smart metering HQ. It is not yet decided if this this feature will be utilised for every NPA disconnection.

Using gsm rather then wireless frequency close-by I take it?

ted1

in industry winter peak is charged between five and seven. Max demand is based on all units used between eight and eleven.

sparcocars

Davy wrote: »

Using gsm rather then wireless frequency close-by I take it?

Yes thats it exactly. Theres a small modem unit at the top of the meter and theres a mobile phone sim card inside. The meters can also be polled (take reading) remotely also so the days of the estimated bills will be gone. Also if meter is tampered with HQ will be notified straight away.

Davy

sparcocars wrote: »

Yes thats it exactly. Theres a small modem unit at the top of the meter and theres a mobile phone sim card inside. The meters can also be polled (take reading) remotely also so the days of the estimated bills will be gone. Also if meter is tampered with HQ will be notified straight away.

The tamper switch was never used before on the elster meters?

sparcocars

Davy wrote: »

The tamper switch was never used before on the elster meters?

Its only the elster smart meter that has this function. Ordinary elster meters in use by the ESB don't have this feature.

Thesafetyman

If you are on a "time of day"tariff then the secret is to fit timers to non essential loads to prevent them running at "peak"times. Dont rely on remembering to switch them off manually as all you have to do is forget them once to incur thre penalty charges

ted1

if your using a couple of thousand euro a month the secret is to fit an energy manager system. Hm i wonder who would supply one.... Oh wait that's me shamless plug.