Wikileaks ... Friend or Foe?

Manic Moran

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Well if theres nothing Illegal about it why are the Yemini government Lying to the Public and Pretending that the bombs being dropped are theirs???

PR, obviously.

Besides, if they're being dropped with the blessing of the local government, the ultimate responsibility does belong to the local government, as they're the people in charge. It doesn't really matter what the marking is on the aircraft that drops the bomb if the Yemenis are the people who control whether or not it happens.

Also, wheres the Mandate for Action in Pakistan, Who authorised/Requested US Drones?

The request was made by the Americans, with authorisation by the Pakistanis. Not only was this an obvious possibility at the time (Even with Pakistan's decrying it for public consumption), even the leaked documents support this.

NTM

Jonny7

Right-wing guests and pundit agreeing that he should be "offed" for reasons that all all false (and utterly ridiculous like treason,etc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d36xEvVnF2I (skip to 0.55)

Hmm, somehow not sure they'd agree with their logic being used against them, i.e. China offing one of them for leaking info about human rights etc

There are people with decent opinions and arguments as to why these kind of leaks should not happen in this manner... fair enough...

Try really really hard to imagine a British news show, where the presenter and guests all agree that someone should be 'offed' for releasing this kind of information... maybe.. if the BNP had their own TV channel.. perhaps.. jaysus

Mr.Micro

I suppose Assange has or will have a visit from the CIA spooks as the Brits roll over when it comes to the US. maybe he might even find himself on a rendition flight or even Cuba. Uncle Sam loves democracy and free speech so long as its in the US, elsewhere anything goes. I hope that Wikileaks continues but we can now see the paranoid US wants to control everything even the web.

When the US is involved in countries like Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan then there will be cover ups and abuse of human rights for the right money.

Digitaljunkie

I'm trying to summerise all the pro and anti wikkileake comments
in this long discussion and what I can see that a large percentage are right in my mind, but with in all those leakes such as locations where terrorists could
use as targets etc. I find worrying. So I can see why the US are worried
about Assange.

In simple terms wikkileakes can not not simply broadcast all the
info without causing major problems not only for the US but further afield.
I am an advocate of free speech, i'm just not sure that this is the best way to go about it.

Fighting fire with fire never works !

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

All we have established thus far is that no general media organisation has been previously successfully prosecuted for similar activities. That does not preclude the possibility of succesful prosecution against Wikileaks, even before one looks at it as a single-purpose organisation dedicated to illegal activity and not a media organisation.

Certainly the jurisdiction question is the big one, but I am not convinced that it is totally insurmountable. There's always wiggle room in laws, I expect that all those highly-paid lawyers are working on a solution. Current bets are on the espionage laws, but I'm unconvinced that they will be able to guarantee an extradition from a country (say, Ecuador) on that basis. I really am curious to know which way they're going to work on it, it's certainly an interesting problem to wrestle with.

NTM

OK, I suppose anything's possible - whether it's at all likely, despite all the bluster, is another thing. IANAL, but Jack Goldsmith, a law professor at Harvard, who previously worked in GW Bush's Office of Legal Counsel is, and here's his take on it (it's a longish article - complete text here.)

I find myself agreeing with those who think Assange is being unduly vilified. I certainly do not support or like his disclosure of secrets that harm U.S. national security or foreign policy interests. But as all the hand-wringing over the 1917 Espionage Act shows, it is not obvious what law he has violated . . .

[Which demonstrates pretty clearly that by describing Wikileaks as "a single-purpose organisation dedicated to illegal activity" you are begging the question of whether its activities [U]are[/U] illegal, at least under US law. And why is it "not a media organisation" just because it's not in the model of conventional media organisations?]

I do not understand why so much ire is directed at Assange and so little at the New York Times. What if there were no wikileaks and Manning had simply given the Lady Gaga CD to the Times? Presumably the Times would eventually have published most of the same information, with a few redactions, for all the world to see. Would our reaction to that have been more subdued than our reaction now to Assange? If so, why? . . .

In Obama’s Wars, Bob Woodward, with the obvious assistance of many top Obama administration officials, disclosed many details about top secret programs, code names, documents, meetings, and the like. I have a hard time squaring the anger the government is directing toward wikileaks with its top officials openly violating classification rules and opportunistically revealing without authorization top secret information . . .

Whatever one thinks of what Assange is doing, the flailing U.S. government reaction has been self-defeating. It cannot stop the publication of the documents that have already leaked out, and it should stop trying, for doing so makes the United States look very weak and gives the documents a greater significance than they deserve. It is also weak and pointless to prevent U.S. officials from viewing the wikileaks documents that the rest of the world can easily see. Also, I think trying to prosecute Assange under the Espionage Act would be a mistake. The prosecution could fail for any number of reasons (no legal violation, extradition impossible, First Amendment). Trying but failing to put Assange in jail is worse than not trying at all. And succeeding will harm First Amendment press protections, make a martyr of Assange, and invite further chaotic Internet attacks. The best thing to do – I realize that this is politically impossible – would be to ignore Assange and fix the secrecy system so this does not happen again . . .

Digitaljunkie

Exclusive rough-cut of first in-depth documentary on WikiLeaks and the people behind it!

Have a look folks great doc not sure which countries that it will air yet. A lot of questions answered and created a few more to.....a must see

http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels___the_documentary?cb,a1364145,1,f,-1/pb,a1364142,1,f,-1/pl,v,,2264028/sb,p118750,1,f,-1

Ray Burkes Pension

steelcityblues wrote: »

My bad on thinking they were associated with Wikipedia - has Jimmy Wales launched any proceedings against that given the obvious name similarities?

This statement sums up the level of knowledge in this thread.

Catsmokinpot

EastTexas wrote: »

He’s true believer of his own doctrine but completely unaware and incapable of even considering the magnitude of harm he has done by publishing private conversations.

More then hypocritical is that he values HIS privacy and elusiveness above all else but has little no respect for that of others.

The kindest thing I can say about that statement is that it's absolute BS of the highest calibre :rolleyes:

Former CIA agent talking about Julian Assange
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM_IdfPPmEY

[Robert Gates, U.S. Defense Secretary]:

Now, I've heard the impact of these releases on our foreign policy described as a "meltdown" as a "game-changer" and so on. I think those descriptions are fairly significantly overwrought. The fact is governments deal with the United States because it is in their interests, not because they like us, not because they trust us and not because they believe we can keep secrets. Some governments deal with us because they fear us, some because they respect us, most because they need us. We are still essentially, as it's been said before "the indispensable nation". So other nations will continue to deal with us. They will continue to work with us. We will continue to share sensitive information with one another. Is this embarrassing? Yes. Is it awkward? Yes. Consequences for U.S. foreign policy? I think fairly modest.

The US Government is up in arms because people might just realise they are full of **** and do something about it.

No, I think what we have here is a good old-fashioned show trial, something Stalin himself would be proud of.

If living in fear and ignorance is something you enjoy then keep thinking he's hypocritical, he values his privacy because he was afraid of the exact situation he's in right now, there's going to be a show trial, which will discredit him in the eyes of ignorant people, the people in charge are going to remain in charge because people like you keep thinking everything is OK.

Go back to bed America your government is in control, here's American gladiators watch this! shut up!

Catsmokinpot

Digitaljunkie wrote: »

I am an advocate of free speech, i'm just not sure that this is the best way to go about it.

I'm an advocate of free speech, but.......

no, you're either for free speech or against it.

You should protect every type of free speech. especially the ones that make you feel uncomfortable, you should be able to talk and be heard, especially if you are saying something stupid, then people can give reasonable arguments against what ever BS that's spouted to make that person look stupid. denying free speech denies expression and denies the chance for reason to clearly win.

The Ku Klux Klan is legal in America The same clan that promoted killing and segregation of black people..... and you're worried about leaked documents that clearly don't affect anyone apart from the government in charge. get a hold of yourself.

Digitaljunkie

I agree Catsmokinpot,

But their are ways of going about it. For instance Daniel Domscheit-Berg who was Assange's spokesman in wikkileaks decided togeather with Herbert Snorrason and other colleagues to brake away and set up Openleaks which supply the worlds media instead of pumping out everything accross the net. I think this is a much better structured way of realising the information.

To recap I think Snorrason has a better way of going about it than Assange has.

Digitaljunkie

Catsmokinpot wrote: »

Former CIA agent talking about Julian Assange
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM_IdfPPmEY


Its nice to know that their are still some sane folks left in the States.

DIRTY69

Digitaljunkie wrote: »

Catsmokinpot wrote: »

Former CIA agent talking about Julian Assange
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM_IdfPPmEY


Its nice to know that their are still some sane folks left in the States.

Agreed!!!

He's the most powerful man in the world right now. He is also a hero for letting others exposing the lies of people who are foolish to believe that people follow what they say and believe it. In fact they are the real information terrorists, not Assange. Assange is not telling lies and supporting genocide. If they didn't lie in the first place they wouldn't be exposed in this way and feel so vulnerable now. No sane person want's oppression and lies, greed and corruption in the government and thus we all must do what we can to support freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Sometimes the truth is hard to take but this is what it is.

The group calling themselves "Anonymous" have released this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHPVdbCtMxw&feature=player_embedded

I'd love to see an end to the incredible biased media, still branding most protesters as extremists,
and branding people fighting for their rights as "terrorists" as has happended to Assange.

Mahatma coat

Anonymous are on the Money This Time

Ignore all the Sh!t about Assange, Ignore all the Sh!t coming from the US Govt and their Puppets in the Media


READ THE CABLES

this sideshow wit Assange is a deliberate distraction, designed to remove Focus from the Daming content of the Cables.

WE Shouldnt get distracted from the Content of them, theres some explosive stuff in them, I've been reading a Few of the corespondences from Tel Aviv, if one doubted that the IDF were a bunch of lying *********'s some of the Cables will confirm it for you

Digitaljunkie

Here's a good interview with Micheal Moore today,

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/michael-moore-julian-assange-countdown-video/

He contributed 20K for JA's bail.

Sweden and America are engaged in “back room deals”. No wonder they want him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8202745/WikiLeaks-Swedish-government-hid-anti-terror-operations-with-America-from-Parliament.html

Catsmokinpot

Digitaljunkie wrote: »

I agree Catsmokinpot,

But their are ways of going about it. For instance Daniel Domscheit-Berg who was Assange's spokesman in wikkileaks decided togeather with Herbert Snorrason and other colleagues to brake away and set up Openleaks which supply the worlds media instead of pumping out everything accross the net. I think this is a much better structured way of realising the information.

To recap I think Snorrason has a better way of going about it than Assange has.

Sorry Digitaljunkie I didn't mean to single you out in any way, haven't the time to read through the whole thread I just saw the conditional free speech comment and pounced. I was trying to make a point. I wish I could believe that the media can be a reliable vessel for information, but it clearly isn't functioning properly.

I think as many people as possible should have access to a copy of all the cables and of course the validity should be checked over, but if they're censored then there's no chance of that happening.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Anonymous are on the Money This Time

Ignore all the Sh!t about Assange, Ignore all the Sh!t coming from the US Govt and their Puppets in the Media


READ THE CABLES

this sideshow wit Assange is a deliberate distraction, designed to remove Focus from the Daming content of the Cables.

WE Shouldnt get distracted from the Content of them, theres some explosive stuff in them, I've been reading a Few of the corespondences from Tel Aviv, if one doubted that the IDF were a bunch of lying *********'s some of the Cables will confirm it for you

been trying to access wikileaks myself, they're right, but this **** with Assange shouldn't be overlooked, They already have Bradley Manning locked up and if Assange gets put in jail, the rest of the people involved will be next

Digitaljunkie

No worries,

Looks like they want to toast Manning,


QUOTE:

"Others, such as Congressman William Green of Iowa, were more blunt. His statement resembled modern calls supporting the execution of the suspected WikiLeaks "whistleblower" Bradley Manning: "For the extermination of these pernicious vermin no measures can be too severe."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/dec/15/wikileaks-us-espionage-act

gizmo555

Digitaljunkie wrote: »

Looks like they want to toast Manning

He is being toasted - ironically, the unremitting regime of solitary confinement he is being subjected to could ultimately make him mentally unfit to plead at a future court martial or trial.

In sum, Manning has been subjected for many months without pause to inhumane, personality-erasing, soul-destroying, insanity-inducing conditions of isolation similar to those perfected at America's Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado: all without so much as having been convicted of anything. And as is true of many prisoners subjected to warped treatment of this sort, the brig's [U.S. Marine Brig, Quantico, VA] medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation.

Just by itself, the type of prolonged solitary confinement to which Manning has been subjected for many months is widely viewed around the world as highly injurious, inhumane, punitive, and arguably even a form of torture. In his widely praised March, 2009 New Yorker article -- entitled "Is Long-Term Solitary Confinement Torture?" -- the surgeon and journalist Atul Gawande assembled expert opinion and personal anecdotes to demonstrate that, as he put it, "all human beings experience isolation as torture." By itself, prolonged solitary confinement routinely destroys a person’s mind and drives them into insanity. A March, 2010 article in The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law explains that "solitary confinement is recognized as difficult to withstand; indeed, psychological stressors such as isolation can be as clinically distressing as physical torture."

Black Swan

It will not be long before there will be a Wikileaks book and movie.

Source: http://www.movieline.com/2010/12/who-should-direct-the-inevitable-wikileaks-movie.php

Digitaljunkie

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

It will not be long before there will be a Wikileaks book and movie.

Source: http://www.movieline.com/2010/12/who-should-direct-the-inevitable-wikileaks-movie.php

Agree I think the big Hollywood studio's will wait to see how it plays out then lash one out. Some smaller studio's might have a go in between.

It has all the ingredients of a big blockbuster.

Anyway Assange is finally out "Let the games begin"

nyarlothothep

gizmo555 wrote: »

He is being toasted - ironically, the unremitting regime of solitary confinement he is being subjected to could ultimately make him mentally unfit to plead at a future court martial or trial.

In sum, Manning has been subjected for many months without pause to inhumane, personality-erasing, soul-destroying, insanity-inducing conditions of isolation similar to those perfected at America's Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado: all without so much as having been convicted of anything. And as is true of many prisoners subjected to warped treatment of this sort, the brig's [U.S. Marine Brig, Quantico, VA] medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation.

Just by itself, the type of prolonged solitary confinement to which Manning has been subjected for many months is widely viewed around the world as highly injurious, inhumane, punitive, and arguably even a form of torture. In his widely praised March, 2009 New Yorker article -- entitled "Is Long-Term Solitary Confinement Torture?" -- the surgeon and journalist Atul Gawande assembled expert opinion and personal anecdotes to demonstrate that, as he put it, "all human beings experience isolation as torture." By itself, prolonged solitary confinement routinely destroys a person’s mind and drives them into insanity. A March, 2010 article in The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law explains that "solitary confinement is recognized as difficult to withstand; indeed, psychological stressors such as isolation can be as clinically distressing as physical torture."

What's happening to him is a disgrace to America and the species. For everyones information you can donate to his legal defence here, seems legit though I'll that to you to decide.

http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/858/1/

Its really saddening to see this kind of torture occur in an apparently "civilized" western nation, you just need a few vindictive vicious scumbags and obeyers to make it happen.

Mr.Micro

nyarlothothep wrote: »

What's happening to him is a disgrace to America and the species. For everyones information you can donate to his legal defence here, seems legit though I'll that to you to decide.

http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/858/1/

Its really saddening to see this kind of torture occur in an apparently "civilized" western nation, you just need a few vindictive vicious scumbags and obeyers to make it happen.

Which is why the US, Land of the free and the greatest democracy ever or ever will be......... is so upset with Wikileaks letting out the real truth. It appears that the US and many other so called democracies are really ruled by a faceless class of agencies like the CIA, Homeland security and several other groups whose only agendas are power and control and are so far removed from human rights that the word democracy is an abomination to them.

DIRTY69

nyarlothothep wrote: »

What's happening to him is a disgrace to America and the species. For everyones information you can donate to his legal defence here, seems legit though I'll that to you to decide.

http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/858/1/

Its really saddening to see this kind of torture occur in an apparently "civilized" western nation, you just need a few vindictive vicious scumbags and obeyers to make it happen.

Amen to that. People laugh about the new world order as if its some kind of mad thing. Well we all know politicians are in bed with business, and the rich. Easy to see how it goes up and up, to the Rothchild and Rockafeller families.
And what is funny is you don't need to go very far, its all on youtube. Literally about one hour and I think a cynic could be convinced.

Manic Moran

the brig's [U.S. Marine Brig, Quantico, VA] medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation

They may also be being administered because sitting in jail awaiting a trial in which you are facing some fifty years in prison is likely to be pretty damned depressing.

NTM

karma_

Manic Moran wrote: »

They may also be being administered because sitting in jail awaiting a trial in which you are facing some fifty years in prison is likely to be pretty damned depressing.

NTM

Yup, nothing to do with the inhuman treatment he is receiving.

Digitaljunkie

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Which is why the US, Land of the free and the greatest democracy ever or ever will be......... is so upset with Wikileaks letting out the real truth. It appears that the US and many other so called democracies are really ruled by a faceless class of agencies like the CIA, Homeland security and several other groups whose only agendas are power and control and are so far removed from human rights that the word democracy is an abomination to them.

In the words of manu chao "politik kills".

BluePlanet

So that's their plan?
Get Manning to testify that Assange paid him for the leaks.

I suspect it will spectacularly backfire.

I can't wait.

Digitaljunkie

Agree.

Now Gillard is changing her tune!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/17/3096454.htm

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

They may also be being administered because sitting in jail awaiting a trial in which you are facing some fifty years in prison is likely to be pretty damned depressing.

NTM

Well, yes, the journalist's comment is a bit speculative and tendentious. What's not at all speculative, though, is the fact that prolonged isolation such as Manning is being subjected to can and does cause severe psychological stress and potential permanent mental damage. Here's what John McCain had to say on the subject:

“It’s an awful thing, solitary,” John McCain wrote of his five and a half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam—more than two years of it spent in isolation in a fifteen-by-fifteen-foot cell, unable to communicate with other P.O.W.s except by tap code, secreted notes, or by speaking into an enamel cup pressed against the wall. “It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment.” And this comes from a man who was beaten regularly; denied adequate medical treatment for two broken arms, a broken leg, and chronic dysentery; and tortured to the point of having an arm broken again. A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.

Now the same Navy which helped establish this fact is using the same technique on a prisoner in its custody. It's shameful.

Poccington

gizmo555 wrote: »

Well, yes, the journalist's comment is a bit speculative and tendentious. What's not at all speculative, though, is the fact that prolonged isolation such as Manning is being subjected to can and does cause severe psychological stress and potential permanent mental damage. Here's what John McCain had to say on the subject:

“It’s an awful thing, solitary,” John McCain wrote of his five and a half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam—more than two years of it spent in isolation in a fifteen-by-fifteen-foot cell, unable to communicate with other P.O.W.s except by tap code, secreted notes, or by speaking into an enamel cup pressed against the wall. “It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment.” And this comes from a man who was beaten regularly; denied adequate medical treatment for two broken arms, a broken leg, and chronic dysentery; and tortured to the point of having an arm broken again. A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.

Now the same Navy which helped establish this fact is using the same technique on a prisoner in its custody. It's shameful.

Let's not get silly now.

What John McCain and countless other POW's went through in the Hanoi Hilton is far removed from solitary confinement in a prison in the United States.

BluePlanet

So basically, the USA spys on the UN and most other countries, no problem there. :rolleyes:

They also just recently did a prisoner swap with Russia: "Ten sleeper agents were charged with "carrying out long-term, 'deep-cover' assignments in the United States on behalf of the Russian Federation"

But it's Julian Assange that is the one to go after?

I don't quite get it, why release actual spys that operated inside the US, and then go all out to try a non-spy that operated from abroad?

Is it just a particuarly sinister attempt to silence investigative journalism?

gizmo555

Poccington wrote: »

Let's not get silly now.

What John McCain and countless other POW's went through in the Hanoi Hilton is far removed from solitary confinement in a prison in the United States.

It's not being silly at all. McCain's point was precisely that the isolation he and other prisoners were subjected to was the worst aspect of their treatment by the Vietnamese, worse than any physical torture or abuse. I suggest you read the entire article linked to above, which is written by a medical doctor and associate professor at Harvard Medical School, Atul Gawande.

Most of the article is about the subjection of prisoners in the US to regimes similar to that Manning is undergoing, on a scale and for durations which are unheard of anywhere else in the West.

In this country [the United States], in June of 2006, a bipartisan national task force, the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America’s Prisons, released its recommendations after a yearlong investigation. It called for ending long-term isolation of prisoners. Beyond about ten days, the report noted, practically no benefits can be found and the harm is clear—not just for inmates but for the public as well. Most prisoners in long-term isolation are returned to society, after all. And evidence from a number of studies has shown that supermax conditions—in which prisoners have virtually no social interactions and are given no programmatic support—make it highly likely that they will commit more crimes when they are released. Instead, the report said, we should follow the preventive approaches used in European countries.

Manning has been in solitary in Quantico since the end of July.

Manic Moran

Manning has been in solitary in Quantico since the end of July.

It's better than being dead. The man has about as much a survival chance in the general population of a military prison as a paedophile does in a civilian prison. And, frankly, I'm not sure I'd give much for his chances in a civilian prison either. John Walker Lindh and Ryan Anderson have not had incident-free spells in jail so far. Lindh started out in a medium-security installation until after his attack, when he was sent to a Supermax.

NTM

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's better than being dead. The man has about as much a survival chance in the general population of a military prison as a paedophile does in a civilian prison. And, frankly, I'm not sure I'd give much for his chances in a civilian prison either. John Walker Lindh and Ryan Anderson have not had incident-free spells in jail so far.

NTM

I'm open to correction, but paedophiles in, for example, Irish prisons are not held in 23 hour a day solitary confinement, with a strictly enforced prohibition on exercising in their cells, deprived of bedding, and with restricted visiting rights, for their own protection, yet they somehow manage to survive.

DIRTY69

BluePlanet wrote: »

Is it just a particuarly sinister attempt to silence investigative journalism?

Yes, I'd say so. I find it interesting that they are bringing up so many times the idea of "national security" saying that x, y, z is a threat to "national security". Well the US has been the cause of much of the worldwide conflicts, and has been the instigator much of the time. The jury is out on if 9/11 was an inside job, and i've got my own opinions on that, but John Pilger has put some very strong evidence together that I wouldn't dispute in his "the war on democracy" film, primarily focused around it's support of torture, dictatorship and biased media reporting. There is evidence in their funding of death camps, political extremism and censorship. They have a lot of experience with this it seems.

There's a lot exposed now because of the internet, and investigative journalism can really be free here, but personally I think that's Rockafeller has spoken out on the internet as being a threat to security, and the US infringing on people's rights on the basis of "national security". Take into account those Xray scanners in airports now, how more draconian can you get? Personally I think the smear campaign of activists and campaigners is not nearly as big as the fear campaign of the media, and that's what stops people and real journalists speaking out when they see something wrong going on.

And I believe the rise of Wikileaks is testament to that fact. People want a way to speak out, and now they finally have one. Hopefully they can help offset the inherent grey onset of a system a bit more like something George Orwell would write about than a system "for the people, by the people". Fair dues to Julian Assange and the Wikileaks crew, as upholders of a very human quest for truth and the freedom against biased media they've exposed how corrupt the system is and why they have such fear of the information getting out.

karma_

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's better than being dead. The man has about as much a survival chance in the general population of a military prison as a paedophile does in a civilian prison. And, frankly, I'm not sure I'd give much for his chances in a civilian prison either. John Walker Lindh and Ryan Anderson have not had incident-free spells in jail so far. Lindh started out in a medium-security installation until after his attack, when he was sent to a Supermax.

NTM

Some argument that, a whopper.

Jonny7

Solitary confinement is especially nasty when there is no end date given. Many US prisons use it as a system of punishment whereby the prisoner will be given 24 hours, or more commonly a week.

Physical danger to the inmate is massively reduced, but mental danger is hugely increased. Its just a trade-off.

Moral of the story, if you mess with the US, they will mess with you back. You just have to stay ON the radar, in the media and that offers some protection.

Its not an anti-US crusade either, just showing up the hypocrisy.

The Russians or many others would not deal with this guy so kindly.

A large portion of the general public are literally too indoctrinated with fluffy TV shows/films to understand that the real world, and real world politics, operate in a much darker way. You mess with them, they mess with you. Even one of the most advanced countries in the world, Sweden, is not above favours and meddling.

DIRTY69

Jonny7 wrote: »

A large portion of the general public are literally too indoctrinated with fluffy TV shows/films to understand that the real world, and real world politics, operate in a much darker way. You mess with them, they mess with you. Even one of the most advanced countries in the world, Sweden, is not above favours and meddling.

Very true. It's all smiles in public, but of course there is a darker side and a more serious side than public relations. The unfortunate thing though is how personal and monetary aspects get in the way of the administration Not to forget about the "favours and meddling" in the main stream media well, that can lead people to believe that any other alternative to the government's choices is crazy or wierd. I refer to the treatment of protesters and activists of the mainstream media, they will often show sensational pictures and make them seem like political extremists when most of the time they are everyday people like you and me.

Manic Moran

karma_ wrote: »

Some argument that, a whopper.

Indeed, one could even say 'terminal'.

NTM

EastTexas

COUCH WARRIOR wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastTexas
Assange accepted stolen property from Bradley Manning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

Your words guilt - note you've stated this as a fact

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastTexas
Manning already admitted to smuggling/ stealing/ transferring and then forwarding classified information to Wikileaks earlier this year.
There will be due process.

and again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastTexas
That’s how he was caught, more precisely turned in for bragging and having a good laugh about it.

Your words, this can only be referring the Adrian Lamo who alledges that Bradley Manning told him he was the leaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastTexas
Easy there, fella
Snitch and guilty are your words not mine.
Don’t put them in my mouth

In fairness I'm not putting anything in your mouth, your foot's already there.

What is your point?
Manning was caught after bragging about it to another hacker.
He is charged with eight violations of federal criminal law, including unauthorized computer access, and transmitting classified information to an unauthorized third party.

Link to Manning’s charge sheet
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/pdf/charge-sheet-pvt-bradley-manning.pdf
As the investigation continues more charges may be added.

Guilty or innocent is for the courts to decide.

Digitaljunkie

Jonny7 wrote: »

A large portion of the general public are literally too indoctrinated with fluffy TV shows/films to understand that the real world, and real world politics, operate in a much darker way. You mess with them, they mess with you. Even one of the most advanced countries in the world, Sweden, is not above favours and meddling.

Agree on this.............

Assange states that the two women have been put under political pressure
to testify.

Interview with David Frost

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/frostovertheworld/2010/12/201012228384924314.html

norbert64

Another more colourful interview with Mr Assange, from MSNBC.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/julian-assange-attacks-sarah-palin-fox-news-and-mike-huckabee-on-msnbc/

Manic Moran

Digitaljunkie wrote: »

Assange states that the two women have been put under political pressure to testify.

How does he know?

NTM

Mr.Micro

Manic Moran wrote: »

How does he know?

NTM

Well I am sure he knows a bit more than the rest of us having been intimate with the women to all accounts and perhaps would have some idea of their personalities. I would assume him to be correct in this case, especially with the vindictiveness of the Swedish that we have seen to date. War criminals have not been pursued with such vigour.

kaiser sauze

Manic Moran wrote: »

How does he know?

NTM

It is not an illogical conclusion to draw.

A country has said publicly they want him, the Swedish law has some pretty obscure language & queue the lifestyle blogger to make the whole thing knit together.

In fact, asking the question you did is pretty asinine the more I think about it.

Manic Moran

kaiser sauze wrote: »

It is not an illogical conclusion to draw.

<snip>

In fact, asking the question you did is pretty asinine the more I think about it.

Difference between personal conclusion and informed fact.

War criminals have not been pursued with such vigour.

How much vigour does the Swedish Prosecution Service usually pursue people with? They've always struck me as a fairly 'law and order' type society.

NTM

Mr.Micro

Manic Moran wrote: »

Difference between personal conclusion and informed fact.



How much vigour does the Swedish Prosecution Service usually pursue people with? They've always struck me as a fairly 'law and order' type society.

NTM

The pursuit of Assange for alleged sexual offences by the Swedish internationally, even opposing his bail, is definitely new ground for the "liberal" Swedish. Were it not for who Assange is and his role with Wikileaks I very much doubt the dull Swedes would have bothered. I am sure there is a carrot or a swede on the end of the stick for the Swedes in getting Assange for Uncle Sam.

Manic Moran

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The pursuit of Assange for alleged sexual offences by the Swedish internationally, even opposing his bail, is definitely new ground for the "liberal" Swedish. Were it not for who Assange is and his role with Wikileaks I very much doubt the dull Swedes would have bothered. I am sure there is a carrot or a swede on the end of the stick for the Swedes in getting Assange for Uncle Sam.

The ' liberal' swedish are also fairly unique in their sexual crime laws and have been noted for having the strongest protection for women out there. It's obviously a subject they feel fairly strongly about and I doubt the swedish parliament drew then up just in case they had a particular desire to please the us by being able to set up someone that the us couldn't reach

Mr.Micro

Manic Moran wrote: »

The ' liberal' swedish are also fairly unique in their sexual crime laws and have been noted for having the strongest protection for women out there. It's obviously a subject they feel fairly strongly about and I doubt the swedish parliament drew then up just in case they had a particular desire to please the us by being able to set up someone that the us couldn't reach

It is only right that there are strong protection laws for women but I will bet this is a first ( I stand to be corrected) where the Swedish authorities have pursued an individual abroad with such vigour and tenacity for alleged sexual crimes, and Assange was not a fugitive or convicted. It is a strange state of affairs. Added to this, 2 women citing such crimes in coordinated conjunction at the very same time as well? Orchestrated ? We may find out in time but perhaps there is another agenda for getting Assange back to Sweden?

Manic Moran

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It is only right that there are strong protection laws for women but I will bet this is a first ( I stand to be corrected) where the Swedish authorities have pursued an individual abroad with such vigour and tenacity for alleged sexual crimes, and Assange was not a fugitive or convicted.

I honestly have no idea. Most people outside of Sweden don't take an interest on who Sweden is trying to prosecute for sex crimes on a routine basis, we're only aware of this one due to the fact that the person in question is of interest to the world at large. It is true that this is the first time that an extradition has been sought for the minor crimes on the charge sheet, but again, that could be explained either by the recentness (Is that a word?) of the law, and the fact that it was much easier for the Swedish authorities to figure out exactly what foreigner they were looking for.

Added to this, 2 women citing such crimes in coordinated conjunction at the very same time as well? Orchestrated ?

If a chap is willing to take liberties with one female, he's quite likely to take liberties with a second. Plus, if two people come with separate stories, the police are more likely to conclude that there's something to it compared to just one person. A conviction is much easier for the Crown Prosecution Service as well. Two complaints at this time is probably more believable than just one.

NTM