[Feedback] What's wrong with the Airsoft forum? How do we fix it?

Steve

Trojan wrote: »

Steve: I absolutely disagree with any and all accusations of houseplantery, but perhaps you could rescind War Machine's ban for his most eloquent outburst since I've decided to downgrade the ban?

No problem with that at all. Ban lifted.

Danin wrote: »

I just want to draw your attention to this Trojan & Steve just so that there is no misunderstanding from either side and you'll understand exactly were I'm coming from

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056091414

I wasn't aware of that thread - I wasn't a mod here at the time. Thank you for highlighting it.

Danin

Steve wrote: »

No problem with that at all. Ban lifted.


I wasn't aware of that thread - I wasn't a mod here at the time. Thank you for highlighting it.

thanks Steve, now I hope you can understand where I was coming from with regards to one rule for all, that's not to say I'm calling for that person to be banned, I was just highlighting the discrepancies in the way the rules are enforced and how it comes across that if you have friends in certain places you get away with more.

and to the best of my knowledge as to date no action or warning was issued or taken regarding that thread

War Machine 539

Well Im back!

On my Houseplant comment, I wasnt trying to offend anyone, I was simply venting frustration! I will keep all mention of botany at a minimum from here on out to avoid further confusion!

On a more relevant note, we have to start finding out where ''The Line'' is.
I have to agree with Blay, water off a ducks back should be the method of dealing with banter. If we cant have banter on this site what is the point of it? This is an outlet for us to extend our hobby past the saturday or sunday we play on, were not children, yet were treated . . . . . intentionally or not as such.
As for insults, Mods take them into CONTEXT! Im not shouting but that is the key word of this post! I love this forum, and I love the debates, the banter the knowledge that is imparted on it, dont mess up something that is good. Please, I implore you!

Rules are there to keep order, but why enforce them when order is already there? They should only be used when serious abuses take place, not a bit of banter.

Apologies if this post seems incoherent, I have been keeping track of this offline all day and I have a lot to input!

Blay +1 on everything your saying, your sense of logic is a refreshing thing to see!

Steve

Blay wrote: »

I really think someone impartial has to come in here be they an Admin or whatever as long as they're not a mod or user from here, read this thread and give a possible solution as an outsider looking in because any solutions coming from the moderators here will ultimately lead to another sh1tstorm down the road.

+1
I agree 100% with that.

I think and hope I'm remaining impartial here - please feel free to point out if you think I'm not

Steve

War Machine 539 wrote: »

On a more relevant note, we have to start finding out where ''The Line'' is.

Absolutely - this will be key to moving forward.
If we can all agree on this and buy into it then there really is hope for the forum.

Witcher

Steve wrote: »

+1
I agree 100% with that.

I think and hope I'm remaining impartial here - please feel free to point out if you think I'm not

You are indeed and the debate here is quite engaging:)

You and the other mods should definitely throw out a few suggested changes when the thread is done with, I just think an outsider having a look and giving their 2 cents or just agreeing with the ones from the mods here would be good and maybe stop further threads popping up with complaints.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'll go with whatever the other users here want:)

Steve

Danin wrote: »

thanks Steve, now I hope you can understand where I was coming from with regards to one rule for all, that's not to say I'm calling for that person to be banned, I was just highlighting the discrepancies in the way the rules are enforced and how it comes across that if you have friends in certain places you get away with more.

and to the best of my knowledge as to date no action or warning was issued or taken regarding that thread

I've only glanced over the thread - I'll read it in more detail when I get time. I've taken on board your comments but to be fair, I'm not willing to mod retrospectively and I don't think it'd be fair to ask me to. (not saying you are ).

Inari

Things really took off here, didn't they?

Being honest, there is a chicken and egg syndrome here - does this forum need more/better moderation because of the levels of abuse? Or is there abuse because of the moderation? Look, I speak out as a moderator and admin for many different sites, at different times in my life. I know what it's like from both sides. But, no matter how much I was hated as a Moderator, people could expect one thing from me; Fairness.

I'm not saying that the mods here are not fair, but there is a trick to being impartial. You have to put aside your own feelings...you don't have feelings anymore. They're a luxury you don't have. Your job as a moderator is to keep things going in line with the site's guidelines. Your job is not to take sides. Moderators do not have opinions; users do. You should not cross moderatorship and general user postings.

What is rampant in this forum at the moment is people are getting their backs up, and there is a clear rift forming between users and mods. To solve that there needs to be some serious integrity. The moderators need to stand firm as a united front, and make their rules & guidelines CLEAR and TRANSPARENT. When that is done, people can accept bans etc because the moderators are just following their guidelines. But at the moment there is a serious lack of definition.

This forum needs a charter overhaul NOW. Not in the future, not maybe possibly, but definitely right now. It needs to be done in a thread like this, reviewed and finalised by the new year if this site is to have any hope of recovering. More users are disappearing, and that is going to become irrepairable.

Actually, let me hit home for a second. If this forum dies, you (Boards) will lose the revenue of the Retailers and Sites - it will no longer be an attractive form of advertising when there is no reason for anyone to frequent this forum. This gives incentive to fix the problem, and it is a problem that needs fixing. It needs action - talking is fine, I'm all for it. But there needs to be solid action taken pretty much immediately, and publically. No point in hiding what people need to know.

When things change, then we can work on repairing. What we need is to start from scratch, and sort literally everything. These things aren't quick fixes, and hey, people might leave. But it really does need to be put to work now. If I were running this show, I would draft up a new charter, adapt the site rules and make them specific, and draft up clear moderator guidelines etc, so that people know what constitutes an 'Abuse of Power' etc. I would try to do all of these steps, and then as a moderator I would ask the users if they would prefer I continued to moderate, or stepped down (I have done this in the past, and have not once been asked to rescind my position) - why? Because it instills confidence in the forum.

Steve

Inari wrote: »

Things really took off here, didn't they?

Being honest, there is a chicken and egg syndrome here - does this forum need more/better moderation because of the levels of abuse? Or is there abuse because of the moderation? Look, I speak out as a moderator and admin for many different sites, at different times in my life. I know what it's like from both sides. But, no matter how much I was hated as a Moderator, people could expect one thing from me; Fairness.

I'm not saying that the mods here are not fair, but there is a trick to being impartial. You have to put aside your own feelings...you don't have feelings anymore. They're a luxury you don't have. Your job as a moderator is to keep things going in line with the site's guidelines. Your job is not to take sides. Moderators do not have opinions; users do. You should not cross moderatorship and general user postings.

What is rampant in this forum at the moment is people are getting their backs up, and there is a clear rift forming between users and mods. To solve that there needs to be some serious integrity. The moderators need to stand firm as a united front, and make their rules & guidelines CLEAR and TRANSPARENT. When that is done, people can accept bans etc because the moderators are just following their guidelines. But at the moment there is a serious lack of definition.

This forum needs a charter overhaul NOW. Not in the future, not maybe possibly, but definitely right now. It needs to be done in a thread like this, reviewed and finalised by the new year if this site is to have any hope of recovering. More users are disappearing, and that is going to become irrepairable.

Actually, let me hit home for a second. If this forum dies, you (Boards) will lose the revenue of the Retailers and Sites - it will no longer be an attractive form of advertising when there is no reason for anyone to frequent this forum. This gives incentive to fix the problem, and it is a problem that needs fixing. It needs action - talking is fine, I'm all for it. But there needs to be solid action taken pretty much immediately, and publically. No point in hiding what people need to know.

When things change, then we can work on repairing. What we need is to start from scratch, and sort literally everything. These things aren't quick fixes, and hey, people might leave. But it really does need to be put to work now. If I were running this show, I would draft up a new charter, adapt the site rules and make them specific, and draft up clear moderator guidelines etc, so that people know what constitutes an 'Abuse of Power' etc. I would try to do all of these steps, and then as a moderator I would ask the users if they would prefer I continued to moderate, or stepped down (I have done this in the past, and have not once been asked to rescind my position) - why? Because it instills confidence in the forum.

You know what? this is a great idea.

Start a thread on it and I'll sticky it - I'll also ask the mods to keep out (including me) It would be really interesting to see what the everyone thinks the rules *should* be.

hrta

Steve wrote: »

You know what? this is a great idea.

Start a thread on it and I'll sticky it - I'll also ask the mods to keep out (including me) It would be really interesting to see what the everyone thinks the rules *should* be.

You could always use the same rules as on an airsoft site, as a lot of the rule's would work in here too.

Paul.

hrta

I think any one that is going to post, they should have a good long read from Inari post.

Inari wrote: »

Airsoft is a game based on the honour system - but I think there is a grey area, not on what constitutes a Hit, but rather what is the 'Honour' system?

It is most commonly explained as "If you think you're hit, you're hit" - but I don't think this goes far enough. What I think is that the honour system needs to be plugged with some ego & arrogance - you should have Pride in your Integrity. Afterall, honour is integral to the game.

According to Encarta Dictionary, the word honour means:
Personal Integrity, Respect, Dignity, Reputation, Source of Pride, Mark of Distinction and Great Priveledge. These qualities come together, in what we call the Honour System - but I have yet to hear the Honour System be explained; it is more commonly re-stated in context. This does not give people clarity. The honour system is not limited to 'If you think you're hit; you're hit', and is much more complicated than that, or at least that is my perspective.

Allow me to elaborate:
- Personal Integrity: You should be made to feel that it is your responsibility to keep a level head, and play fair (i.e. according to the rules). This means that you should retain a degree of controll over yourself, and that you continue to conduct yourself in a manner befitting you're integrity. You should be made feel that how you play reflects YOU as a PERSON. If you are sure you hit someone, and they have not acknowledged it, you should be able to note it, and not make a deal out of it - shouting out "Take your hits" is just aggressive, and counter productive...in short, a big downer. If you are hit, you should again feel that you are representing yourself - so show yourself as you would like to be seen; if you are hit, then show off your integrity.

- Respect & Dignity: Everyone who plays the game of Airsoft is a person, and is thus equal (on a broad spectrum, in terms of Human Rights etc). I think respect for the others in the Game should also be pushed - without them, you wouldn't have a game as we know it, you'd just be plinking on your own. You should respect your team; your behaviour in relation to Integrity and adherance to the rules reflects on them. You should also respect your opponents and give them the benefit of the doubt - if you think you hit them, then ou can respectfully disagree...but please remember that respectfully disagreeing is not shouting 'TAKE YOUR HITS!!' - that phrase just causes more problems, and doesn't solve anything. You should also respect yourself, and thus conduct yourself in a dignified manner - take a step back, look at your behaviour/playing and see would you be happy to play against yourself...if not, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong.

- Reputation: This is probably the biggest one that should be pushed - the one that is closest to the good old ego; your reputation. You should be made to feel that your conduct in the games affects your reputation - do you want to be known as the testosterone-fuelled ass that shouts aggressively at people to take their hits, when they're not taking theirs...or do you want to be known as the nice, respectful player who adds to the game by following the rules and treating those around him/her with respect.

These are my thoughts - feel free to disagree & discuss; I just decided to post them to see if A) They spur some Airsoft-related talk & to see what you guys think. For me the Honour System is a big deal - it is what makes Airsoft so great, and also what turns a lot of games 'Bad'

Shiva

Trojan wrote: »

Reviewing the PMs again, I've decide I was overly harsh with 6 months and I'm downgrading it to a 1 month ban.

Right - I stayed away from this until I knew the real story, because I didn't want to wade in with my size eleven's and get it all wrong.

Firstly......If you banned him for calling a mod a cuntlog, you need to unban him. He posted that comment in the Off Topic thread, and took a week off for it. He DID NOT use that term in the PM - the moderator he was discussing the matter with quoted the original post from the Off Topic thread, but made a balls of using the QUOTE TAGS. So in effect, he's been banned twice for the same offense, having already served the ban, come back and been banned again.

Secondly, and in my opinion, most importantly.....The only "abuse" given to the moderator in the PM was that he called him an "eejit". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way you would have been drawn into this is because the mod reported the PM as being abusive - KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE WORD "EEJIT" WAS THE EXTENT OF THE ABUSE.

Am I the only one who thinks that reporting a PM as abusive because you've been called an eejit is absolutely ridiculous ?

And that folks, is what's wrong with this forum. Incompetent, reactionary and personalised moderation.

To hell with it - I've avoided talking about the elephant in the room up until now, but I've had enough. The simple fact is, the moderation here lacks credibility because to a large number of users, the moderators lack credibility.

The solution isn't more rules, or more leniancy, or any other half-arsed appeasements you guys care to throw to us plebes. No matter what changes are agreed on in this thread, any improvements will be shortlived, because sooner or later the incompetence will emerge again, and we'll be right back at square one.

Lads, and you both know who you are - you're both dead nice guys, but you haven't a ****ing clue how to moderate this forum, so please, step down before you do any more harm.

Steve - you seem to be doing a fine job without knowing the various personalities involved - your experience is showing. Why not appoint another two mods from outside the airsoft forum, who have experience, at least for a few months to allow things settle down ?

Because as it stands, this place is a shambles, and I'm speaking as someone who's been around Boards since the very beginning, and has been it's evangelist when people talked about moving en mass to other forums.

Enough is enough. Do something.

Inari

Done.

senordingdong

Shiva wrote: »

Right - I stayed away from this until I knew the real story, because I didn't want to wade in with my size eleven's and get it all wrong.

Firstly......If you banned him for calling a mod a cuntlog, you need to unban him. He posted that comment in the Off Topic thread, and took a week off for it. He DID NOT use that term in the PM - the moderator he was discussing the matter with quoted the original post from the Off Topic thread, but made a balls of using the QUOTE TAGS. So in effect, he's been banned twice for the same offense, having already served the ban, come back and been banned again.

Secondly, and in my opinion, most importantly.....The only "abuse" given to the moderator in the PM was that he called him an "eejit". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way you would have been drawn into this is because the mod reported the PM as being abusive - KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE WORD "EEJIT" WAS THE EXTENT OF THE ABUSE.

Am I the only one who thinks that reporting a PM as abusive because you've been called an eejit is absolutely ridiculous ?

And that folks, is what's wrong with this forum. Incompetent, reactionary and personalised moderation.

To hell with it - I've avoided talking about the elephant in the room up until now, but I've had enough. The simple fact is, the moderation here lacks credibility because to a large number of users, the moderators lack credibility.

The solution isn't more rules, or more leniancy, or any other half-arsed appeasements you guys care to throw to us plebes. No matter what changes are agreed on in this thread, any improvements will be shortlived, because sooner or later the incompetence will emerge again, and we'll be right back at square one.

Lads, and you both know who you are - you're both dead nice guys, but you haven't a ****ing clue how to moderate this forum, so please, step down before you do any more harm.

Steve - you seem to be doing a fine job without knowing the various personalities involved - your experience is showing. Why not appoint another two mods from outside the airsoft forum, who have experience, at least for a few months to allow things settle down ?

Because as it stands, this place is a shambles, and I'm speaking as someone who's been around Boards since the very beginning, and has been it's evangelist when people talked about moving en mass to other forums.

Enough is enough. Do something.

Sums it up pretty much.

fayer

Shiva wrote: »

Right - I stayed away from this until I knew the real story, because I didn't want to wade in with my size eleven's and get it all wrong.

Firstly......If you banned him for calling a mod a cuntlog, you need to unban him. He posted that comment in the Off Topic thread, and took a week off for it. He DID NOT use that term in the PM - the moderator he was discussing the matter with quoted the original post from the Off Topic thread, but made a balls of using the QUOTE TAGS. So in effect, he's been banned twice for the same offense, having already served the ban, come back and been banned again.

Secondly, and in my opinion, most importantly.....The only "abuse" given to the moderator in the PM was that he called him an "eejit". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way you would have been drawn into this is because the mod reported the PM as being abusive - KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE WORD "EEJIT" WAS THE EXTENT OF THE ABUSE.

Am I the only one who thinks that reporting a PM as abusive because you've been called an eejit is absolutely ridiculous ?

And that folks, is what's wrong with this forum. Incompetent, reactionary and personalised moderation.

To hell with it - I've avoided talking about the elephant in the room up until now, but I've had enough. The simple fact is, the moderation here lacks credibility because to a large number of users, the moderators lack credibility.

The solution isn't more rules, or more leniancy, or any other half-arsed appeasements you guys care to throw to us plebes. No matter what changes are agreed on in this thread, any improvements will be shortlived, because sooner or later the incompetence will emerge again, and we'll be right back at square one.

Lads, and you both know who you are - you're both dead nice guys, but you haven't a ****ing clue how to moderate this forum, so please, step down before you do any more harm.

Steve - you seem to be doing a fine job without knowing the various personalities involved - your experience is showing. Why not appoint another two mods from outside the airsoft forum, who have experience, at least for a few months to allow things settle down ?

Because as it stands, this place is a shambles, and I'm speaking as someone who's been around Boards since the very beginning, and has been it's evangelist when people talked about moving en mass to other forums.

Enough is enough. Do something.

Well said.

Airsoft Reloded

Have to agree with Tony, any time I listen to people complain about boards it is about the mods (and the back seat mods), now thats more about the new people. When I listen to regulars its always unfair or uneven modding and I've noticed that myself with some distastefull threads about our site that were left open and not modded at all.

That said what can we expect boards to do? If its worked by people giving their free time then your gonna get bad quality in modding and if they have to pay mods then its not viable.

I think that certain mod should be let go and a policy (in house and behind closed doors obviously) to deal with poor modding should be established.

I also believe that the whole airsoft fora is to partitioned and some things are just thick, like the "experiences/advice with airsoft retailers thread" ignoring the name you can't actually say anything bad which defeats the purpose.

But all that said again the worste thing about boards has always been the fact that so many people take it so serious.

The_ChiefDUB

Bang on the money Shiva.

Shiva wrote: »

Right - I stayed away from this until I knew the real story, because I didn't want to wade in with my size eleven's and get it all wrong.

Firstly......If you banned him for calling a mod a cuntlog, you need to unban him. He posted that comment in the Off Topic thread, and took a week off for it. He DID NOT use that term in the PM - the moderator he was discussing the matter with quoted the original post from the Off Topic thread, but made a balls of using the QUOTE TAGS. So in effect, he's been banned twice for the same offense, having already served the ban, come back and been banned again.

Secondly, and in my opinion, most importantly.....The only "abuse" given to the moderator in the PM was that he called him an "eejit". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way you would have been drawn into this is because the mod reported the PM as being abusive - KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE WORD "EEJIT" WAS THE EXTENT OF THE ABUSE.

Am I the only one who thinks that reporting a PM as abusive because you've been called an eejit is absolutely ridiculous ?

And that folks, is what's wrong with this forum. Incompetent, reactionary and personalised moderation.

To hell with it - I've avoided talking about the elephant in the room up until now, but I've had enough. The simple fact is, the moderation here lacks credibility because to a large number of users, the moderators lack credibility.

The solution isn't more rules, or more leniancy, or any other half-arsed appeasements you guys care to throw to us plebes. No matter what changes are agreed on in this thread, any improvements will be shortlived, because sooner or later the incompetence will emerge again, and we'll be right back at square one.

Lads, and you both know who you are - you're both dead nice guys, but you haven't a ****ing clue how to moderate this forum, so please, step down before you do any more harm.

Steve - you seem to be doing a fine job without knowing the various personalities involved - your experience is showing. Why not appoint another two mods from outside the airsoft forum, who have experience, at least for a few months to allow things settle down ?

Because as it stands, this place is a shambles, and I'm speaking as someone who's been around Boards since the very beginning, and has been it's evangelist when people talked about moving en mass to other forums.

Enough is enough. Do something.

Stercus Accidit

Shiva wrote: »

....

Well said,

Here,

Any chance of an Eirsoft forum?

Shiva

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Well said,

Here,

Any chance of an Eirsoft forum?

I own www.airsoft.ie

I've actually considered it. It'd take a hell of a lot of effort to make it viable though.
Boards.ie as an entity is the foremost discussion forum in the country - it'd be very hard to attract regular users to a new airsoft forum. Its been tried a few times by various people, and nothing has come of it.

fayer

Shiva wrote: »

I own www.airsoft.ie

I've actually considered it. It'd take a hell of a lot of effort to make it viable though.
Boards.ie as an entity is the foremost discussion forum in the country - it'd be very hard to attract regular users to a new airsoft forum. Its been tried a few times by various people, and nothing has come of it.

DO IT!

senordingdong

Would the IAA not be a more fitting location?

fayer

senordingdong wrote: »

Would the IAA not be a more fitting location?

Dosent get traffic to the forum, last year the site was getting 11k hits a month. Could be a good resource, even to combine IAA forums with shiva's new online empire could equal win.

Steve

Getting people to move sites has been tried before with varying degrees of success (not just Airsoft related) lolocaust.org is a prime example. It was heralded as the end of boards as we know it but didn't actually happen. People came back here because boards has too much to offer *besides* the specialist content of the forum.

One of the things I was mulling over as part of a proposed solution was to have a private sub forum here in airsoft that wouldn't need the same level of moderation as a public one. Call it 'The Safe Zone' or whatever and make it purely for banter and off-topicness.
One of the biggest pains that a mod has here is trying to uphold the sitewide directive that mods don't allow anything that can get the site sued. Libel and slander are paramount factors in that - hence the 'no personal abuse' rule.

Another option you have is to request a hosted private forum on boards and mod it yourselves.

Stercus Accidit

But a private forum is private, no-one wants to exclude people, it would only work if it was clearly linked on the front page of this forum so people would know about it.

Either the atmosphere needs to change or people will leave, Arnies is the nearest place to go and people have gone and are going there, somewhere closer to home run by the people we play with and talk to would draw a crowd.

The other airsoft forums were started at the height of this ones popularity, now people are sick of the place, as you mentioned, boards wide rules must be applied, and that passing the buck (not saying you are) is how you end up with bad rules and no discretion for their enforcers.

I'm close to calling it a day myself.

fayer

I touched on this with Steve via pm last week.

The issue is not the rules, they work. The issue is airsoft is slightly unique as a forum, the people here probably have the most real world contact with each other than any other forum on boards that is public.

From this we know each others flaws personalities etc.

I know one of the new mods, this is a perfisional judgement, I would not have picked him for the position, ever. However if I only knew him "online" this view would not be as strong (still would not have been a first choice may I add). Boards needs to look at airsoft and choose it's mods not from what they protray online but from the man behind the keyboard, as that is what most of us know, and with the issues here, I'm afraid to say do not respect as a person in power.

I never remember o1s1n, kdouglas, gandalf having to run off to admins for personal issues, they were strong and mature enough to know how to deal with it, but first of all had the respect of the community, and only drew flack from the most extreme trolls(silverhaze etc). It's hard for people to follow someone they don't see fit to orginse a skirmish.

(sorry for spelling, on mobile)

Steve

The idea of it being private is twofold -

First, it would stop posts showing on the front pages of boards and therefore (I would hope) require less moderation
.
Secondly, it would limit the forum to the Airsoft community and as such have a more homely feel to it.

Access can be whatever the community wants.
It could be given to anyone that asks without question
It could be based on something like a minimum amount of posts within the Airsoft forums.
That one could easily be decided by poll.
A stickied request thread here would suffice.

It's just an idea by the way - I don't even know if the admins would approve it but if it was a means of restoring peace and community spirit here then I'd say there's a good chance it would.

Shiva

Steve wrote: »

Getting people to move sites has been tried before with varying degrees of success (not just Airsoft related) lolocaust.org is a prime example. It was heralded as the end of boards as we know it but didn't actually happen. People came back here because boards has too much to offer *besides* the specialist content of the forum.

I agree completely.....

Even if it would be a success, I'd still rather hang out here (assuming things change).
As I said, I've been around Boards right from the start, and I know from experience what a positive place it can be.

The issue is the moderators, and their attitude - Fayer has it right. There is a lack of respect for them as moderators because of issues in the past. I dont want to drag them up here in public, but I've spoken to Dav via PM - have a chat with him about it.

On another topic....Can you give me some feedback on my post regarding Gerrowadats ban ? I dont expect something to be done double-quick, chop-chop - but can you confirm you acknowledge my point and are looking into it, or is anything going to be done ?

Airsoft Reloded

Dave was banned??? :eek:

I thought his name was dave boards.ie, what possible reason could have got him banned (Something stupid no doubt)?

Sorry if I'm miles behind here :rolleyes:

Shiva wrote: »

I agree completely.....

Even if it would be a success, I'd still rather hang out here (assuming things change).
As I said, I've been around Boards right from the start, and I know from experience what a positive place it can be.

The issue is the moderators, and their attitude - Fayer has it right. There is a lack of respect for them as moderators because of issues in the past. I dont want to drag them up here in public, but I've spoken to Dav via PM - have a chat with him about it.

On another topic....Can you give me some feedback on my post regarding Gerrowadats ban ? I dont expect something to be done double-quick, chop-chop - but can you confirm you acknowledge my point and are looking into it, or is anything going to be done ?

senordingdong

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

Dave was banned???

Yes.
Shocking.

Steve

Shiva wrote: »

On another topic....Can you give me some feedback on my post regarding Gerrowadats ban ? I dont expect something to be done double-quick, chop-chop - but can you confirm you acknowledge my point and are looking into it, or is anything going to be done ?

The local mods don't have the authority to overturn an admin ban, nor are we privvy to the information in the reported pm's or any discussion the admins may have had on the subject. In short, no, there's nothing we can do about it.
I'm sure that if Gerrowadat is willing to avail of due process then he will get a fair hearing:

Trojan wrote: »

Any person who feels that one of the local mods, a Cmod, or any admin has made a bad decision regarding a ban they've received is welcome to file a complaint on the Dispute Resolution forum. A neutral Cmod and neutral admins will take a look at the decisions, and it can and sometimes does result in bans being reduced or rescinded completely.

Shiva

Steve wrote: »

The local mods don't have the authority to overturn an admin ban, nor are we privvy to the information in the reported pm's or any discussion the admins may have had on the subject. In short, no, there's nothing we can do about it.
I'm sure that if Gerrowadat is willing to avail of due process then he will get a fair hearing:

Thanks Steve....I appreciate the feedback.

To be honest though, given the general disillusionment he has with the forum, I doubt he'll bother.

And if I may be frank, he shouldn't have to . Trojan has thanked your post, so he's aware of the issue, and he's perfectly capable of addressing it without Gerrowadat going through that rigmarole.

The upshot of this is, someone was wrongly banned for 6 months (the reduction to one month is irrelevant) because of a mod taking exception to being called an eejit, and then making a complete mess of the quote in the PM so that it looked like Gerrowadat called him a cuntlog, an offence which he'd already been banned for and "served his time". I'd also like to point out that the mod in question is probably reading this, and is well aware of the situation, but has done nothing to clarify things.

And as I said, this is a big part of the problems we're having......its down to bad moderation.

I've noticed that this thread started out as a general enquiry as to what can be done to change things, and the complaints about moderation are being ignored and we're being steered into discussing rule changes. Changing the rules wont help.

Steve

Shiva wrote: »

I've noticed that this thread started out as a general enquiry as to what can be done to change things, and the complaints about moderation are being ignored and we're being steered into discussing rule changes. Changing the rules wont help.

Nothing is being ignored - I started this thread to give everyone a chance to say their bit and gave it a limited lifetime. It's still on schedule. Following that, we can get down to the nitty-gritty of each issue in a separate thread or threads as needed.

This is only the first phase of what's going to be a difficult process. It may not work but, hey, at least we're trying.

Shiva

Steve wrote: »

It may not work but, hey, at least we're trying.

And I wont fault you for that - despite my cynicism, believe me I appreciate it

OzCam

Gentlemen, the point has been made. Can we please stop repeating that word now? Abuse is abuse, it's either tolerated or it isn't.

Shiva

OzCam wrote: »

Gentlemen, the point has been made. Can we please stop repeating that word now? Abuse is abuse, it's either tolerated or it isn't.

Frankly Ozcam, the blatant wrongful punishment of a user and the subsequent negligence in doing something about it offends me much more than any profanity. But I guess we have different priorities.

Steve

Shiva wrote: »

Frankly Ozcam, the blatant wrongful punishment of a user and the subsequent negligence in doing something about it offends me much more than any profanity. But I guess we have different priorities.

With the greatest of respect, I've already pointed out that we can't do anything about it so continuing discussion on it is just really adding noise to this thread and distracting from it's purpose.
It was not a local moderation issue and has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread, you're a member of boards long enough to know that there are avenues available to deal with this and know what they are.
I'm respectfully asking everybody to stop posting about it from this point on. Any further posts on the subject will be deleted.

sharpy2010

hey guys. im kind of new to boards (only joined this year) and i understand there is alot of rules and all but idunno if it has been mentioned previously but with regards mod problems and everything having used airsoft adverts regurly in the past few months i have noyiced some regurlar posters give some advice on a thread and get given off to for backseat modding!!! I personally would appreciate any advice given to me by seasoned boardsies whether its good, bad or indifferent. I have seen noobs like myself get slapped on the wrist for posting on a thread that might not have been used for 2months but having read it seen no definate sale and just make an enquiry about and get reprimanded for necro threading!!! It personally has made me think before posting!! but I feel rather than giving out then if the moderator does there (voluntary) job properly then there would be no problem with necro threads all it takes is a pm!! and since i started using this forum I have seen the number of pages in the adverts section neraly double but with next to no stock moving and threads ending up being necroed yet there stillbeing 42 pages of adverts!!!And having had a quick look through some of the posters in this thread i would hate to see them leave as im new and they have valuable information to impart and also some cool toys aswell cos personally speaking if I seen certain people selling an item I would definately purchase it from them (eg DeBurca,Leftyflip,etc.)knowing that they provide good work and a good service to the forum.
well lads thats my two cents and hopefully it wont be my last!!
yours thankfully
Sharpy

Lemming

sharpy2010 wrote: »

hey guys. im kind of new to boards (only joined this year) and i understand there is alot of rules and all but idunno if it has been mentioned previously but with regards mod problems and everything having used airsoft adverts regurly in the past few months i have noyiced some regurlar posters give some advice on a thread and get given off to for backseat modding!!! I personally would appreciate any advice given to me by seasoned boardsies whether its good, bad or indifferent.

Hi Sharpy, as a retired/original mod for airsoft adverts I'll try answer your questions.

First things first; the adverts forum is a completely different animal altogether from any other airsoft forum, and just like adverts.ie and its predecessor before that (the old boards.ie for-sale section), needs ruled with something akin to an iron fist as people stand to lose money in some shape or form due to misunderstanding/vague commentary/messing around/deceit. As such, it has a more literal interpretation of its charter than the other forums would do. Those rules might annoy some people, but they are not there to stop users trading, they are there to protect said same users and keep everyone honest and everything above board and on the table flor all to see the state of play.

You'll find that boards.ie in general has a no-backseat modding policy, although how it gets applied varies greatly from forum to forum simply based on the needs of that particular forum. In order to stop any arguments occuring (and users can/have/will take umbrage with said back-seat modding and an argument ensues) that would otherwise lead to an unclear picture of what's going on, adverts is strict on the matter; which is why I've slapped people in the past for it as have other moderators since. It's not a particularly serious breach imo, but it's one that needs contained in order to keep adverts clear of confusion and/or arguments between users.

The general mantra for adverts is that if you are not interested in a particular item, then don't post; even if it's to say "that looks so cool, I wish I had the money for it". It's just more muddying of the water, and more posts for a prospective buyer/seller to wade through first.

I have seen noobs like myself get slapped on the wrist for posting on a thread that might not have been used for 2months but having read it seen no definate sale and just make an enquiry about and get reprimanded for necro threading!!!

I wouldn't agree with censuring someone for that. If something has been sold, then there should be a sale-agreed comment (or words equally clear on the matter) on the thread. But it does require you read through it first. If an item has been sold off-boards.ie, then the original poster should have the courtesy and manners to post such. Otherwise if something just hasn't shifted, there's no harm in someone posting about it. If the OP spots the thread they can reply.

This is part of the reason why I rarely engaged in locking threads on adverts (unless there was absolute disaster happening, but most threads were not like that). It allows users to return to a thread long after it's fallen off the first few pages if need be.

Ok, if you're consistently necro-threading on threads that are quite clearly finished then yeah, sure I'd expect a mod to have a word with you, and infract you if you kept on at it, but it's not a show-stopper in itself.

and since i started using this forum I have seen the number of pages in the adverts section neraly double but with next to no stock moving and threads ending up being necroed yet there stillbeing 42 pages of adverts!!!

It's less to do with the rules and more to do with the fact that there's less money in the economy and more uncertainty about what's around the corner; as such people are more careful with their money and there has been a running "joke" for the last two years that the largest growing airsoft team in Ireland is the unemployed. Ugly reality, but there it is.

The other notion to contend with is that airsoft is now coming on four years old in Ireland and longer established players have become a bit more selective about what they buy/want and so the volume of sales/trades has slowed down.

That there are 42 pages of threads is nothing in itself. Take a look at any forum on boards.ie - or wait for them to fix the archive searches and then you can jump back over ten years of threads ....

Vents

Lemming, a clear concise answer to a question......... so, when are you coming back to mod?

you know you want to............;)

Steve

I've removed some pointless posts from this thread, you can find them here.

Lemming

Vents wrote: »

Lemming, a clear concise answer to a question......... so, when are you coming back to mod?

you know you want to............;)

I'm not so sure that I'm a suitable candidate to moderate given that there is a lot of bad blood towards moderators in general, never mind someone who has walked in the shoes before. If - and that's a colossal "if" - I were to return it would be under provision that I (and I would need other experienced crowd-control moderators - e.g. Gandalf, Rew, etc. - brought in too) would be given license to be utterly ruthless in order to pull the proverbial brakes on all of this .... malaise.

Until the community wakes up from its collective stupor (and the last few pages stand in point), any new moderator is going to just get the same behaviour from users once the honeymoon period is over and the first ban gets meted out or the first threat of possible moderation is made unless an issue calms down (as this thread so eloquently shows). Add into the mix that some users will have already been banned by me in the past for rules breaches on adverts and it wont help matters.

As for user bans, the user in question is the one that needs to raise the issue with whomever banned them - be that a local mod, a Cmod, an admin or a site employee. If you walked into a doctor's surgery and started asking about another patient's medical records you'd be rightly told to get stuffed. Same idea here. It's none of your business. The outcome maybe, but not the details.

Everyone seems to want easy answers whilst saying "can't someone else do it?". There are no easy answers and everybody - and I do mean "everybody" - needs to pull their weight here, not just scream "j'accuse" at the moderators every time they don't get their own way. To underscore the point, Steve hasn't even been given a chance to make a difference here and already people want to write the exercise off. So what's the alternative? new mods? And when you aren't happy with them because the honeymoon period has worn off, what then? Get rid of them and get in new mods? And when they don't work out because the honeymoon period has worn off what then? Get rid of them and ... etc.. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

No, this community (mods included for their part; it does take two to tango after all) needs a 2x4 to the head to wake up. Seriously.

War Machine 539

Steve wrote: »

I've removed some pointless posts from this thread, you can find them here.

Pointless is your point of view, theres a sizeable chunk of people who disagree with you. Is this your way of gaining respect from users? Perhaps state why you find them pointless . . . . . . .

War Machine 539

Lemming wrote: »

No, this community (mods included for their part; it does take two to tango after all) needs a 2x4 to the head to wake up. Seriously.

Not so long ago something of this nature would have been deemed unnacceptable. I got a weeks ban - Albeit revoked, doesnt really matter, I still got one, for using the word '' houseplant '' as an apparent insult.
This isnt that difficult to do right lads.

Steve

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Perhaps state why you find them pointless . . . . . . .

Steve wrote: »

The local mods don't have the authority to overturn an admin ban, nor are we privvy to the information in the reported pm's or any discussion the admins may have had on the subject. In short, no, there's nothing we can do about it.

Lemming

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Pointless is your point of view, theres a sizeable chunk of people who disagree with you. Is this your way of gaining respect from users? Perhaps state why you find them pointless . . . . . . .

What is sizeable? The people who make the most noise are often few in number (not always of course). I would point out that I have seen very little respect shown towards Steve in his attempts to actually address the issues this community needs dealt with, whilst users do not seem willing to reciprocate or indeed even listen and are only interested in "scoring points".

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Not so long ago something of this nature would have been deemed unnacceptable. I got a weeks ban - Albeit revoked, doesnt really matter, I still got one, for using the word '' houseplant '' as an apparent insult.
This isnt that difficult to do right lads.

/sigh

Calling someone a house plant is to call them something unflattering; ergo abuse. Where does metaphor about the community's need to wake up constitute abuse.

Dogwatch

The title of this thread is asking"What is wrong with the Airsoft forum and how can it be fixed"

It is my opinion that there is nothing wrong with the forum and it does not need to be fixed.

I think that the issue lies with the users and their attitude and approach to other users.

The moderators are not to blame for the state of the forums, it is us, the users. Some users appear to be in a race to the lowest standards of behaviour and when the get stopped, they complain. Moderators are expected to maintain the standards of public forum and if you go below these , you will face the consequences.

If you, the user, want light handed moderation, maintain these standards. Do not give the moderator, or any othe user, a reason to complain about your posts. Think about what is in your post before you hit the submit button.

Finally, before you, the user, blame the moderators for the decline of these forums, have a close look at your own contributions first.

Thank you for reading.

Gatling

Well said Lemming, why is it when something happens in here the same people demand we the rightous get what we want when we want or else ,every mod bar kd has been subjected to the treatment ,Robster /the master ,gandalf ,lemmings,andy now even thermo has caused reaction seems nobody will be as a mod unless selected by one clique or another ,its common knowledge and we all know it ,

OzCam

My apologies to Steve, but I need to say something. My last post was about the wider issue of responsibility, not one individual user.

If Gerrout had minded his language a bit better he wouldn't have been banned. He'd be here, posting useful content, where we need him.

I don't want to see people banned. I want to see civil discussions.

TheDoc

Gatling wrote: »

Well said Lemming, why is it when something happens in here the same people demand we the rightous get what we want when we want or else ,every mod bar kd has been subjected to the treatment ,Robster /the master ,gandalf ,lemmings,andy now even thermo has caused reaction seems nobody will be as a mod unless selected by one clique or another ,its common knowledge and we all know it ,

<snip>

Really dont care since I'm taking a break anyway, but as a supposid IAA commitee member, <snip> I've never actually seen you put across an opinion that isn't made already by another poster that you simply fall in line behind.

And lets stop beating around the bush, I've asked you before, what are these cliques your talking about, I'd really like to know, because your always eluding to this "clique" and I have an idea, but I'd like to you actually say it for once, and not hiding behind some mysterious post.

Andy G is a mod, then his mate is a mod, that looks pretty clicky to me. Granted that it really doesn't matter if someones friend is selected or whatever the case may be, if they are good enough to mod, they are good enough to mod.

But what is this clique, please, enlighten us all to the inside scoop you seem to have that no one else does?

Your probably eluding to the clique as I mentioned that I think it is, where there is far more details and information about it that you are not privid too, unless a moderator friend is keeping you i nthe loop, which they shouldn't but by all means please elaborate, this clique must be eradicated because they are the plague of this forum!

Or maybe they are the only ones that were botheirng their hole trying to keep things good and say things everoyne else thought but just wouldnt...

And every "feedback" thread created in relation to previous moderators or their moderation, has had serious valid cause for being created. If you want to enlighten yourself on those issues, they are still viewable through the search function, where you can see that they were all with top reason for being started.

Steve

Doc, you should know better than that. See you in a week.