Seven cyclists killed in collision with car in Italy

furiousox

$hit, terribly sad story here.
Imagine heading out for a Sunday spin in a group and this happening.
RIP lads.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11922726

NeedsTraining

Very sad story.

RIP

paddymacsporran

Heard on another site the driver was speeding and on dope.....

RIP, thoughts with the families.

funnights74

Shocking story, R.I.P

murph226

RIP

macadam

That a sorry looking scene, and could happen anywhere, those drivers drug driving and drink driving and causing any accident should be jailed on the spot.

Run_to_da_hills

RIP.

You are never safe even in a group.

kenmc

Just saw it in Irish times, terrible story. RIP

pantani

RIP my god reminds me of that training spin in NZ where a woman and two men were killed similar circumstances!

CheGuedara

God, that's awful. The worst nightmare of everyone who goes out on a bike for a weekend spin. RIP

Jawgap

furiousox wrote: »

$hit, terribly sad story here.
Imagine heading out for a Sunday spin in a group and this happening.
RIP lads.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11922726

Terrible, for the cyclists and their families.

jwshooter

There for the grace of god go I .....

abouttobebanned

http://bit.ly/hC8t4f

Horrible

Billy7878

what type of car? condolences

biomed32

awful thing that happened, and the worrying thing is it can happen anywhere, even here in ireland

Captain Havoc

Threads merged, title changed from eight to seven. Earlier reports did say eight.

Icyseanfitz

terrible situation RIP

Faith+1

Jesus Christ, He must of being going at some speed. RIP.

Jawgap

Some more details on the incident in the Irish Times.....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1206/breaking4.html

Lemag

between 300 and 350 cyclists have been killed annually on Italian roads

Does this sound a little nuts to anyone else?

Plazaman

Very sad. There could not be any further details to this story to make it more infuriating.
Shocking loss of life, driver speeding whilst high on cannabis, already banned for dangerous driving, has his 10 year old son in the car with him.
RIP

RobertFoster

Lemag wrote: »

Does this sound a little nuts to anyone else?

It does to me. But, there are 60 million people living in Italy, so it might be relatively similar to other countries.

Lumen

RobertFoster wrote: »

It does to me. But, there are 60 million people living in Italy, so it might be relatively similar to other countries.

The UK has about 150 cyclist deaths a year for about the same population, and about 2000 car user deaths (compared to 6000 for Italy). Recollection of those stats is handwavy at best.

Inbox

That story is really unbelievable,maybe the would have been alright if they were cycling single file. They were probably cycling along like the pelethon taking up the whole side of there road,I see it quite often over here too. Best bet is always to stay on the inside.

Lumen

Inbox wrote: »

That story is really unbelievable,maybe the would have been alright if they were cycling single file. They were probably cycling along like the pelethon taking up the whole side of there road,I see it quite often over here too. Best bet is always to stay on the inside.

Maybe. Speculation. No.

DirkVoodoo

Inbox wrote: »

That story is really unbelievable,maybe the would have been alright if they were cycling single file. They were probably cycling along like the pelethon taking up the whole side of there road,I see it quite often over here too. Best bet is always to stay on the inside.

I think we can safely say it was the dangerous driving by the high, banned and reckless f**ker that was the cause and not because of how they were lined up on the road. They said he lost control of the car, I don't think riding single file or not was an issue.

RobFowl

RIP

I really hate to see this sort of incident but it's still far too common.

Speculation as to fault on the part of those deceased is not helpful to anyone.

Apart from the 7 dead the only other facts known so far are the driver was overtaking and on the wrong side of the road and was been reported at having been banned from driving and testing positive for marijuana.

Diarmuid

Inbox wrote: »

That story is really unbelievable,maybe the would have been alright if they were cycling single file. They were probably cycling along like the pelethon taking up the whole side of there road,I see it quite often over here too. Best bet is always to stay on the inside.

You are piling the speculation on top of more speculation there. And best bet is not always stay on the inside.

niceonetom

Inbox wrote: »

That story is really unbelievable,maybe the would have been alright if they were cycling single file. They were probably cycling along like the pelethon taking up the whole side of there road,I see it quite often over here too. Best bet is always to stay on the inside.

The driver was on the wrong side of the road. Attempting to apportion some of the blame for this massacre to the victims is disgusting.

Captain Havoc

No speculation please, let's just keep this thread with condolences and facts as these sort of threads tend to get derailled from the subject.

flickerx

niceonetom wrote: »

The driver was on the wrong side of the road. Attempting to apportion some of the blame for this massacre to the victims is disgusting.

Agreed. The guy was probably overtaking at speed around a corner, how else would he not have been able to stop or slow down in time to stop it happening. Blaming the cyclists for not being in single file is ridiculous.

Inbox

I'm not blaming the cyclists,just saying now that it would be wise and it's a lot less of a risk if you stick to the inside of the road.

seamus

Inbox wrote: »

I'm not blaming the cyclists,just saying now that it would be wise and it's a lot less of a risk if you stick to the inside of the road.

You're wrong, simple as.

between 300 and 350 cyclists have been killed annually on Italian roads

Does this sound a little nuts to anyone else?

Have you ever had the privilege of driving in Italy? It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that their cyclist fatalities per capita are 2-3 times ours.

funkyjebus

socking. the poor familes that man has destroyed. RIP

Jawgap

Inbox wrote: »

I'm not blaming the cyclists,just saying now that it would be wise and it's a lot less of a risk if you stick to the inside of the road.

I take it your extensive cylcing experience has led you to conclude this? Or perhaps you work as a traffic collision investigator?

.....member of the Garda Traffic Corps?

....Forensic Engineer?

....or is this something you've culled from a detailed study of road traffic injuries and fatalities?

I look forward to you sharing your evidence.......

leftism

Shocked at this story! Shocked more because of the number of fatalities as opposed to the incident itself... Having been over to Italy with the missus a fair bit, two things strike me about the traffic culture there:

a) The sheer number of road cyclists out for spins at the weekend is astounding. They are a country obsessesed with the sport! It's really impressive to see the numbers involved! So much so that driving on small Italian roads on a weekend makes you feel like you've been dumped in the middle of an etape or sportive route. Most groups i've observed had very good road etiquette and rode in single file or pairs. Sadly there is almost a huge disregard for the wearing of cycling helmets. Whether its the Italian's obsession with all things style, or just bravado but i've seen few helmets apart from up in the mountains. Mostly they'll wear their club or favourite team caps. A lot of the cyclists will argue staunchly that helmets are more of a danger than they're worth. :rolleyes:

b) The standard of driving in Italy is apalling. The only place in Europe i've seen worse driving was in Portugal. Dangerous overtaking, speeding and general lifethreatening road decisions are commonplace and it makes for stressful times when you're on the roads. They tend to be more aggressive, less patient and far more wreckless than in Ireland. I'm not making a rash racist generalisation either. After two weeks driving on Irish roads, my girlfriend couldn't believe how much more relaxed and safe irish motorists are. Another trend i've notice on Italian roads is the level of danger you are likely to experience is directly proportional to the further South you are. Ask a driver from Milan and he'll say "oh sure we're dangerous drivers here, but you should see how it is in Rome!" Ask someone in Rome and they'll say " well at least its not as bad as in Naples!"

Considering these two factors, its not surprising such a terrible incident (i refuse to use the word "accident" as it assumes nobody was at fault) occurred... But to kill 7 or 8 cyclists in one go is beyond ridiculous!

seamus

leftism wrote: »

They tend to be more aggressive, less patient and far more wreckless than in Ireland.

I drove in Florence for a few days last year. They were generally crazy, zero lane discipline, speeding, overtaking on both sides, but I could handle that. Only incident I recall was seeing the light go amber, so I slow down and stop. OK, so their ambers are much longer than ours, my bad, I could have kept going. But the guy behind me starting going mental, sitting on the horn, shouting what I can only assume to be obscenities and waving his hands. This goes on for a good five second, during which the lights had gone red. Then he decides he's going to go around me, beeping and waving his hands, sailing on through the red light, cutting off traffic coming from the right with complete indifference. Madness.

Saila

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

RIP.

You are never safe even in a group.

ever. EVAR! we need more safety officers to police the world :rolleyes:

OT --> R I P - shocking

Caroline_ie

That's horrible.RIP.
Me and niceone were on our way back from Enniskerry last summer whem something similar happened. We were single file. A car or it could have been two ) desided to accelerate and overtake the couple of vehicules going the oposite direction to us. We just had enough time to throw ourselves towards the ditch on the left side of the road. Terrifying.

That can happen anywhere to anyone.
So posters really should shut up.

cyclopath2001

leftism wrote: »

b) The standard of driving in Italy is apalling.

The driver was not Italian and had already been banned.

seamus

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The driver was not Italian and had already been banned.

To be fair to him, he didn't say that Italian people are terrible drivers, he said that the standard of driving on Italian roads was appalling, which is made up of the drivers there, regardless of nationality. Someone driving while banned contributes to the standard of driving on the road. In general, people will raise or lower their standard of driving to match the prevailing attitude of those around them. If you drive in Italy for a long period, you will find yourself matching the attitude of the drivers around you. Likewise if you move to the UK, you'll probably find the standard of your driving improve.
It's the same phenomenon (everyone else is doing it) that causes Irish cyclists break the lights en masse and Irish drivers speed up to catch an amber light instead of stopping like they should.

zeusnero

leftism wrote: »

b) The standard of driving in Italy is apalling.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The driver was not Italian and had already been banned.

I'm currently living in Italy and leftism is spot on - the standard of driving is ridiculously bad - so much so that you really have to adapt to it in your own driving style. It's something that permeates your driving persona, and while in no way am I defending the Moroccan driver, from what I see on the roads over here on a regular basis, it could easily have been an Italian, non disqualified, non high driver.

The facts are though that the driver was a Moroccan national driving under the influence of drugs (on a suspended license) and on the wrong side of the road while there was oncoming traffic, aspects which contributed to the severity of the accident.

Condolences to the families of the deceased - terrible terrible thing to happen.

paddymacsporran

It disgusts me that some people have the attitude all cyclists should ride in single file and over to the side. I suggest thats the attitude of someone who doesn't ride a bike and therefore doesn't know the dangers. That to me is a pathetic, opinionated, and completely unbalanced viewpoint.

Re driving standards, in terms of Europe Ireland is low in the scale in some ways, but high on others - thinking ahead and lane discipline is pretty poor here, but on the other hand, courtesy and consideration to fellow road users is excellent, road rage is pretty much non-existent here. We should be grateful for that when out on a spin, its way better here than the Uk for example and cyclists are generally treated with much more respect here.

My view is based on me having driven and cycled extensively in Ireland, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Belgium, Holland and Spain, I also don't think its fair that all Italian drivers are classed as shockingly bad, Italy is no worse than anywhere else, apart from in the cities when you don't know where you are going!

This is a shocking one-off, a drugged up banned driver on the wrong side of the road, speeding and cutting short the lives of innocent guys on their sunday spin. The protagonist should be locked up and the key thrown away - At best.

leftism

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The driver was not Italian and had already been banned.

I don't think his nationality has anything to do with it. He had already been banned for dangerous driving and was high at the time, which clearly was the root cause of the collision. I would agree Seamus that most people will adapt to the prevailing driving style after a few weeks in a new country. It certainly did affect me when i was driving in Italy and i definitely began to adopt a more agressive, impatient mentality, which took a while to erradicate on returning to Ireland.

My previous post was not intended to speculate as to the causes though. Merely my observations of Italian road usage let me to conclude that cycling fatalities are probably a lot more common in Italy (i've no idea on statistics and so am again open to correction).

(a)more cyclists out training
+
(b)more dangerous driving
=
(c)increased likelyhood of collisions and cyclist fatalities

In my opinion Ireland has less of (a) and less of (b) in general.

Lumen

leftism wrote: »

I had read he was of Morrocan extraction (am open to correction). Regardless of where he was from, he had already been banned for dangerous driving and was high at the time, which clearly was the root cause of the collision.

Not likely. He tested positive for cannabis. Cannabis does not make you want to go out and perform dangerous overtaking manouvres.

If anything we need more cannabis to keep dangerous drivers safely stoned on their sofas watching daytime TV.

leftism

paddymacsporran wrote: »

Re driving standards, in terms of Europe Ireland is low in the scale in some ways, but high on others - thinking ahead and lane discipline is pretty poor here, but on the other hand, courtesy and consideration to fellow road users is excellent, road rage is pretty much non-existent here. We should be grateful for that when out on a spin, its way better here than the Uk for example and cyclists are generally treated with much more respect here.

I think you're spot on in your evaluation of Irish driving. I'd also like to add that our system for teaching young people how to drive is far worse than other European systems which definitely impacts on the number of road deaths per year.

Jawgap

A study reported on in New Scientist a few years ago looked at how the impact of road fatalities is assessed. Buried in the text was a suggestion that enforcement rather than education etc is the key to reducing fatalities and the general adverse effect road traffic incidents have on society:-

"Clearly, safety alone is not incentive enough to drive well. Although people see accidents happen to others, they use their own track records to tell them if they are safe and even when accidents are common, the odds are that they will take many risks before they come a cropper. In the developing world, just as in the developed one, people need to know that if they break the law of the road there is a reasonable chance they will be caught. But effective enforcement requires money and political will, both of which may be in short supply in the developing countries."

In the case of these poor lads, the real question may not be so much to do with driver behaviour on Italian roads as to do with the efficiency and efficacy of Italian road traffic enforcement - what's that like?

tomasrojo

Jawgap wrote: »

A study reported on in New Scientist a few years ago looked at how the impact of road fatalities is assessed. Buried in the text was a suggestion that enforcement rather than education etc is the key to reducing fatalities and the general adverse effect road traffic incidents have on society:-

"Clearly, safety alone is not incentive enough to drive well. Although people see accidents happen to others, they use their own track records to tell them if they are safe and even when accidents are common, the odds are that they will take many risks before they come a cropper. In the developing world, just as in the developed one, people need to know that if they break the law of the road there is a reasonable chance they will be caught. But effective enforcement requires money and political will, both of which may be in short supply in the developing countries."

In the case of these poor lads, the real question may not be so much to do with driver behaviour on Italian roads as to do with the efficiency and efficacy of Italian road traffic enforcement - what's that like?

I don't know about Italy, but it does seem that feeling that you are likely to be caught and punished for drink- or drug-driving, speeding, dangerous driving, etc. does lead to better driver behaviour. Stands to reason.

I remember when they brought in the penalty points and it looked as if the Gardai were going to come down hard on speeding. For about a week, there was a lot of very careful driving. Then it became clear that enforcement was negligible, and everything went back to normal.

Horror adverts, on the other hand, don't seem to work. They just result in desensitisation of viewers. And maybe freaked-out children. But they don't seem to affect driver behaviour in any great way.

doozerie

paddymacsporran wrote:

Re driving standards, in terms of Europe Ireland is low in the scale in some ways, but high on others - thinking ahead and lane discipline is pretty poor here, but on the other hand, courtesy and consideration to fellow road users is excellent, road rage is pretty much non-existent here.

I disagree that road rage is pretty much non-existent here, but a person's view on that will obviously be determined by what they deem to be road rage. Occasionally you hear of someone being shot during a traffic "incident", usually in the US, and I'd imagine that few would class that as anything other than road rage. However the majority of incidents are likely to be far less dramatic, though no less risky to life and limb, such as dangerous overtaking, pulling out in front of moving traffic, speeding, etc. A lot of these could reasonably be described as road rage incidents when the culprit gives no thought to the safety of others and makes the speed of their own progress the main, and perhaps the only, consideration (the dangerous overtaking one is a particularly relevant example given the casual way in which I've heard many otherwise sane Irish people refer to "having" to overtake a slow moving vehicle "even though it was risky"). My experience of Irish driving is that we have plenty of dangerous drivers here, be that through the aggressive nature of their driving, or through the completely oblivious (to everyone else) nature of their driving.

As to what counts as road rage generally, I was recently told by a motorbike garda that I exhibited road rage by showing the finger to a taxi driver that was using his car to try to shove me and my bike out of his way. Apparently this warranted the garda pursuing me, but not the taxi driver (though that could simply be because I was continuing on the route to the garda station while the taxi driver had veered off that route). The definition of road rage is quite broad, apparently.

paddymacsporran

Apologies for the O/T reply here, but road rage isn't making a risky manouvere IMO. Any fool can do that.

Road rage IMO is the aftermath of said daft or ignorant manouvere when one driver challenges another, I've seen it all on my 80k pa driving - the resultant chase, braking suddenly, driving too close, racing, berating, abusing, threatening behaviour.

In Ireland, it IS much more calm than other countries. I drive extensively, and have seen that with my own beady eyes....

Back O/T,

http://road.cc/content/news/28223-driver-involved-crash-killed-seven-cyclists-italy-sunday-may-face-murder-charges

Doctor Bob

Lumen wrote: »

Not likely. He tested positive for cannabis. Cannabis does not make you want to go out and perform dangerous overtaking manouvres.

If anything we need more cannabis to keep dangerous drivers safely stoned on their sofas watching daytime TV.

I'd query the generalisation in your second line (I sense tongue in cheek), but you're spot on in your first. I'm reminded of a line I read years ago (when the Independent on Sunday was still advocating legalisation) which characterised the stoned driving experience thus: The driver going at 20 miles per hour with a white-knuckle grip on the wheel, while his passengers implored him to slow the hell down. (Not that I'd know anything about it myself. [Driving's not my thing.])

OT: R.I.P. Makes the blood run cold.