Horses Headford Road Shocking Conditions

dvet

They're doing a piece on these horses right now on six-one news. Horrible, horrible, horrible :mad:

Cherry Blossom

Few questions

Had the conditions of these horses greatly improved by the time this footage was taken?
Is this group some of the best condition out of the origional 20?
Any updates on wether or not a vet has looked at them?

Being perfecty honest I wouldn't be concered giving their current condition, they look far from malnourished but I'm just wondering if the footage is acurately representative of the 'real' situation.

<ETA> I've only seen the first half of the report as my connection is too slow, hopefully it will be shown again at 9.

dvet

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Few questions

Had the conditions of these horses greatly improved by the time this footage was taken?
Is this group some of the best condition out of the origional 20?
Any updates on wether or not a vet has looked at them?

Being perfecty honest I wouldn't be concered giving their current condition, they look far from malnourished but I'm just wondering if the footage is acurately representative of the 'real' situation.

<ETA> I've only seen the first half of the report as my connection is too slow, hopefully it will be shown again at 9.

I don't know much about the case at all to be honest, but it was the pic of the dead horse that shocked me. That did look pretty emaciated. I've seen neglect cases before, but it still gets me in the gut, every time

dvet

p.s. I'm with you on the internet connection! But if you're near a tv, they might replay it in a few mins on the 9 o clock news.

dvet

This is the horse I was referring to:

(note: This pic came from the six-one news so i presume it's okay to post, but a WARNING to some users that this is a graphic picture of a cruelty case, please don't click if you're not sure)

I should also mention that I don't know if these are the exact same galway horses that the previous posters were talking about, but I presume they are?

Cherry Blossom

dvet wrote: »

This is the horse I was referring to:

(note: This pic came from the six-one news so i presume it's okay to post, but a WARNING to some users that this is a graphic picture of a cruelty case, please don't click if you're not sure)

I should also mention that I don't know if these are the exact same galway horses that the previous posters were talking about, but I presume they are?

That is fairly bad and you would know better than me, I wouldn't be too sure on what happens to bodies that have been there a while. I know in the first few days they get pretty gassy and bloated but I haven't seen a dead horse that was more than a few days gone as they are generally disposed of pretty promptly. Obviously they would have been competing for what resources there was and the more dominant ones would have hovered up most of what was going. Really I'm wondering what became of the rest of them I'm just thinking if certain individuals might forsee prosecution comming there way they would leave the more healthy animals where they can be seen (but then wouldn't they have tried to get rid of the carcasses ) I like to know what became of the rest of the 20, but that will most likely never be discovered!!

Cherry Blossom

Actually I'm wondering now as an afterthought, would the carcass have been fairly well preserved given the current temperatures?

Discodog

I have to agree with AJ that the horses featured did not look too bad to me. I think that Valerie may of be a little premature in assuming the cause of death - it needs a Veterinary PM to discover this.

Disappointingly the footage shown would not be good as evidence in a prosecution & would actually serve the defence. I would of thought that an RTE crew would want to show the worst rather than the best.


The link is here & the horses start at 12 mins

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1087411

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Actually I'm wondering now as an afterthought, would the carcass have been fairly well preserved given the current tempratures?

I can't recall from the thread how long the dead ones have been there. Could they of died from a lack of water rather than food ?.

One of my neighbours was complaining about a local farmer's horses that have no feed. I had to explain that he was visiting them everyday & that they were actually in good condition.

I would say that the Council bear a lot of the responsibility. Two horses died on their land & the bodies are still there. The County Vet should of dealt with this the moment that the first reports were made.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

I can't recall from the thread how long the dead ones have been there. Could they of died from a lack of water rather than food ?.

Any number of things from dehydration, exposure to the elements, extremely high worm count (they would most likely have been eating their own faeces as soon as it hit the ground) or indeed (dare I say it) colic or gastric torsion.

Discodog

I agree. People have to understand that livestock are treated differently when it comes to interpretations of cruelty. Horses regularly go for periods without food. It isn't the absence of food that denotes cruelty it is the condition of the animals.

I would be fairly sure that even in these temperatures, given the time, a PM could not reliably give a cause of death. I am sure that a defence lawyer could use the huge delay as factor in whether the PM could be relied upon.

I have to confess that seeing those huge bales & the horses freely munching away, that the "c" word did enter my head. Had I been there I would of wanted the bales in an adjoining field - good job I wasn't.

dvet

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

That is fairly bad and you would know better than me, I wouldn't be too sure on what happens to bodies that have been there a while. I know in the first few days they get pretty gassy and bloated but I haven't seen a dead horse that was more than a few days gone as they are generally disposed of pretty promptly. Obviously they would have been competing for what resources there was and the more dominant ones would have hovered up most of what was going. Really I'm wondering what became of the rest of them I'm just thinking if certain individuals might forsee prosecution comming there way they would leave the more healthy animals where they can be seen (but then wouldn't they have tried to get rid of the carcasses ) I like to know what became of the rest of the 20, but that will most likely never be discovered!!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the horses in the background, they really didn't look to be that thin (and definitely nothing compared to that dead horse!) but the woman they interviewed said that they'd found 2 dead horses there that day. So I find it confusing as well! you would never even know if the horses were in seperate, nearby, fields, and they're painting all the owners with the same brush? Again -

With regards to the condition of the body in the pic, i don't want to subject anyone to something they don't want to read, so I'll put this in a spoiler:

any animal carcases I've ever examined/post mortemed have always been pretty much in the same body condition as when they've died, even after a couple of days. e.g. overweight animals still look well conditioned, slightly underweight animals would still look a bit ribby, etc. As you said if anything there can be some bloating at first (depending on cause of death/environmental factors), but the muscle or fat cover wouldn't generally waste away that quickly..

so.... this horse most likely really was that thin.

Luckily it is very easy on a post mortem exam to prove that an animal was emaciated before it died, so I can only hope that if this is the situation, they've got vets on the case, and that they can make a prosecution.

Cherry Blossom

I assume the netting/plastic has been left on so they have to eat it slower, this will only work while the bale is full though and they'll still be standing there munching away 20+ hours a day, meanwhile the netting and plastic have their own dangers!

dvet

Discodog wrote: »

I agree. People have to understand that livestock are treated differently when it comes to interpretations of cruelty. Horses regularly go for periods without food. It isn't the absence of food that denotes cruelty it is the condition of the animals.

I would be fairly sure that even in these temperatures, given the time, a PM could not reliably give a cause of death. I am sure that a defence lawyer could use the huge delay as factor in whether the PM could be relied upon.

I have to confess that seeing those huge bales & the horses freely munching away, that the "c" word did enter my head. Had I been there I would of wanted the bales in an adjoining field - good job I wasn't.

Very slow typer, so didn't see the last few posts while I was typing out the last one!

I agree that people who don't necessarily know about livestock can jump to the wrong conclusions (albeit in a well meaning way, but still, not helpful!). And horses who live outdoors in winter, with their full coats etc, can look very scruffy to the untrained eye - I know ours must have looked like muck monsters at times in winter, even though they were spoiled to the last! But from the thread (i admit it's been a few days since I read back through it), and the fact that news cameras were called/all the concern being generated, I wonder if there's a lot going on that the tv cameras didn't pick up on?

About the PM's, it would be fairly easily provable in court that an animal was emaciated, even if they were PM'ed after a long delay,

based on the amount of fat cover on the internal organs (particularly the fat cover over the heart and kidneys, which only disappears in cases of true starvation), and also on the presence or absence of rigor mortis (emaciation affects its onset).

but certainly if they were trying to prove another cause of death (dehydration, some types of colic), this would get harder to prove as time goes on.

I would love to know the true story about what's going on there.

dvet

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I'm just thinking if certain individuals might forsee prosecution comming there way they would leave the more healthy animals where they can be seen (but then wouldn't they have tried to get rid of the carcasses )

You might be on to something there... maybe they heard about news cameras on the way and arrived pretty sharpish to round up the worst looking ones, and move them? Carcases would be harder to move quickly without a JCB or something similar... this is pure speculation on my part though!! Maybe someone from earlier on the thread will fill us in tomorrow, if they know the story.

Cherry Blossom

Link to just the report on the horses

http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1219/media-2874490.html#

Discodog

It really stresses the importance of photographs. It would of made a big difference if the people who first saw these horses had taken some photos & maybe posted them here.

Evidence is always the number one priority & with camera phones it only takes a few minutes.

From RTE news:

TristanPeter

I hope it's okay to post this email here in that I didn't get permission to do so but I think it's important and there are very good points made:
__________________________________________________

Thank you for your email to Galway Bay FM regarding the horses on the
Headford Road and please accept my apologies for the delayed response.
As you may appreciate, things have been pretty hectic over the past
week.

I certainly appreciate your advice regarding feeding these animals and
want to assure you that we have sought the appropriate advice before
initiating a feeding strategy. We did an assessment of the horses on
the Headford Road and they were all suffering with varying degrees of
neglect. As you may be aware, we discovered two dead horses on
location, one a young foal who obviously was just not strong enough to
deal with the combination of hunger and the inclement weather
conditions and the second horse was a three year old who was very thin
and probably unable to access any of the meagre supplies that were
available because of the hierarchy within the herd.These horses need
worming and general care but ultimately it was agreed that food was
the most vital necessity.

I am aware of the problems of Colic in horses (we have a similar
problem called Gastric Torsion which is prevelant in my breed of dog)
so we were advised to avoid any rich food (ie meals or grains) and to
stick to hayledge and silage. The gentleman who co-ordinated the
delivery of the 14 bales is a 'Horse Man' who spent most of his life
in the US and has considerable experience in rescuing and caring for
neglected horses. (He currently has ten rescued ponies). We also have
a vet on standby and he assesses any of the horses who appear to be in
difficulty.

Sadly this problem is not new but has snowballed (no pun intended)
since the recession. It is also a country wide problem and regretfully
there is a plan in place to do a massive cull of all these unwanted
animals. I have no interest in pointing fingers or allocating blame
(where would it start or finish), I will leave that to others, my only
interest is in ensuring that these animals do not starve to death and
are suitably nourished to deal with the harsh winter we are promised.

I would be delighted to accept any assistance offered as I am fully
aware that once the initial plight has faded these poor creatures
could be abandoned once again. The horses on the Headford Road are
only the tip of the iceberg, I managed to get some food to some horses
in Tuam today and was so distressed to discover that one of them had
died in the last two days from hunger cold and exhaustion. I have also
been made aware of over 40 horses that are abandoned in a forest out
in Connemara. We will need all the provisions we can get to feed them.

In the meantime I am doing my best to highlight this issue in the
media. I am fortunate to have the medium at my disposal and intend to
make full use of it. the Irish Times, Irish Independant as well as
some of the local papers have been out to take some photos and are
covering the matter on Monday. RTE took some footage but it looks like
it may have been dropped in favour of more 'important' news!

Sorry for going on a little, but this heartless cruelty really bites
deep! Keep in touch and let me know any thoughts, suggestions etc.

Kind Regards
Valerie Hughes
_________________________________________________________________

Thank God there are people like Valerie Hughes out there!

TristanPeter

I think (largely based on the posts I have read) groups of concerned people in each county need to get together and start demanding changes on a local basis. The GSPCA (just speaking about Galway here but this applies to everywhere), the Dept. of Agri, the City/County Council, politicians, the gardai and the public need to get together and sort this out. Public representatives have to do what the public want of them and not pander to minority groups for fear of being accused of bias. As I said already, Niall O'Brolcahain has done nothing as of yet and I think it's because primarily...he doesn't have to. The councils don't want to do any more than what is absolutely necessary from what I can tell and they are so quick to pass the buck. If they are not forced to act by the public nothing will change. We need to demand that they take action. Trying to deal with them all individually is like herding cats. Is anyone interested in joining a lobby group here in Galway? We need to get together, discuss solutions and put these to the powers that be.

dvet

TristanPeter wrote: »

I think (largely based on the posts I have read) groups of concerned people in each county need to get together and start demanding changes on a local basis. The GSPCA (just speaking about Galway here but this applies to everywhere), the Dept. of Agri, the City/County Council, politicians, the gardai and the public need to get together and sort this out. Public representatives have to do what the public want of them and not pander to minority groups for fear of being accused of bias. As I said already, Niall O'Brolcahain has done nothing as of yet and I think it's because primarily...he doesn't have to. The councils don't want to do any more than what is absolutely necessary from what I can tell and they are so quick to pass the buck. If they are not forced to act by the public nothing will change. We need to demand that they take action. Trying to deal with them all individually is like herding cats. Is anyone interested in joining a lobby group here in Galway? We need to get together, discuss solutions and put these to the powers that be.

That's an interesting idea. Just looking for an idea as to what you think these groups should be focusing on though - i.e. what is it that you feel needs to be achieved in order to improve the situation?

Example - more effective investigations by local authorities, or a change in law to make it easier to prosecute neglectful owners, or for some organisation to be set up to take in and look after these animals? Or for public to come forward to volunteer to care for more animals? (just trying to get an idea, as I agree something should be done.)

I find the situation very sad and don't mean this to sound heartless (because that's not where i'm coming from at all), but - with the huge oversupply of horses vs demand in the country right now, I wonder if any long term solution can be found for many of the horses that already exist? i.e. as Valerie Hughes says, is a 'massive cull' the only manageable way to prevent their ongoing suffering? I'm afraid it might be...

Having said that, The Donkey Sanctuary is fantastic, the fact that 1 organistation in 1 site could look after almost 1,000 donkeys is amazing, so maybe something like this could be achieved for horses? Although I imagine saving 1,000 horses would only be the tip of the iceberg unfortunately.

I know that the ISPCA have a centre in cork for neglected horses, but that was very full even before the recession so I'm guessing their hands are somewhat full right now, although I'm open to correction.

Cherry Blossom

dvet wrote: »

I find the situation very sad and don't mean this to sound heartless (because that's not where i'm coming from at all), but - with the huge oversupply of horses vs demand in the country right now, I wonder if any long term solution can be found for many of the horses that already exist? i.e. as Valerie Hughes says, is a 'massive cull' the only manageable way to prevent their ongoing suffering? I'm afraid it might be...

Unfortunately I think a massive cull may well be the only way to manage the situation. I know of people who are trying to give away horses they can no longer affoard to keep and are unable to sell, some of these are competition horses that would have been worth in excess of €10,000 in the boom period. There is also the fact that there is one factory in the country that slaughters horses and in the height of summer the waiting list was 3 months long, I can't imagine what it is now at this stage! It costs money to have a horse pts and disposed of so abonding these animals is what people have now been doing. These would gennerally be the same people (dealers etc.) that gained most from them when the economy was stable.

A mass cull would certainly be the quickest solution to end the suffering of those that are in trouble now, however we can't just keep culling horses and a long term solution needs to be saught to prevent animals getting to this stage in the first place.

dvet

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I know of people who are trying to give away horses they can no longer affoard to keep and are unable to sell, some of these are competition horses that would have been worth in excess of €10,000 in the boom period....

Yup... people are even trying to dump their horses on others as their value has crashed so badly - since last year I've been hearing stories of people going to horse sales and bringing an empty horsebox with them in case they buy, only to return to their car at the end of the day, and find 2 worthless horses dumped in the box!!

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

A mass cull would certainly be the quickest solution to end the suffering of those that are in trouble now, however we can't just keep culling horses and a long term solution needs to be saught to prevent animals getting to this stage in the first place.

I think you're right. At least having them slaughtered is more responsible and infinitely preferable to having them abandoned. I think it need not necessarily be such a long term thing though. Seeing as way less people are breeding from their mares now (compared to the last few years i.e. 2000 - 2007 ish, when pretty much anyone with a mare was giving it a go!), i'm hoping that the problem will to some extent 'fix itself' once this generation of horses have been dealt with. i.e. that the number of foals being born will have dropped to a more sustainable level.

crally

Hi, at least something is being done about it now. Do you think setting up a Facebook page could help?

Amberjack

Just saw a piece on TV3's 5.30 news about these poor horses. Also, just to say to everyone who has given their time and energy on this cause, well done!

Dirk Gently

tv3 news reported from Headford on the 5:30 news tonight. Wasn't good viewing, a number of images of horse carcasses.

Discodog

I agree that there will have to be a mass cull. But no one will pay for it. The only way of solving this problem long term is by using the Control of Horses Act 1996. But this has to be backed up with prosecutions. There has to be a viable deterrent to prevent further cruelty.

Valerie's email contains this phrase: "We also have
a vet on standby and he assesses any of the horses who appear to be in
difficulty."

If a Vet has assessed the horses & agrees that they have been subjected to unnecessary suffering then the owners should be prosecuted ?.

Discodog

TristanPeter wrote: »

I hope it's okay to post this email here in that I didn't get permission to do so

I really would get her permission especially as she may now get emails in response to this mail.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

If a Vet has assessed the horses & agrees that they have been subjected to unnecessary suffering then the owners should be prosecuted ?.

Determining who the owners are with any certainty would be extremely difficult as it's highly unlikely that horses being dumped would be microchipped which basicly comes back to legislation. I have never actually seen a vet check for a microchip on a horse other than when I've specifically asked to have my own checked. If any of mine where ever to be stolen they would most likely never turn up as they would never be checked! Nationwide legislation to make freeze marking them mandatory would be much more effective and provide a much easier means of identification (e.g. it's very easy to determine individual cattle from ear tags). Does anyone know if any of these abandoned horses have been scanned? Then there's the fact that no dealer ever has a passport changed into their own name.

<ETA>
Link to what a freeze mark looks like:

http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.farmkey.co.uk/farmkey/images/stories/fm_closeup.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.farmkey.co.uk/farmkey/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dcategory%26sectionid%3D3%26id%3D67%26Itemid%3D44&usg=__-c35j-YI6U6Kti9JIxKX4MgNBp8=&h=298&w=420&sz=11&hl=en&start=0&sig2=y9gH_aWKID2NJBrHrct0hw&zoom=1&tbnid=-vK2DCL72ve18M:&tbnh=158&tbnw=242&ei=qskPTba-JMqJhQeloZy4Dg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfreeze%2Bmark%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DVLT%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1152%26bih%3D472%26tbs%3Disch:1%26prmd%3Divns0%2C3&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=410&vpy=192&dur=292&hovh=189&hovw=267&tx=140&ty=192&oei=qskPTba-JMqJhQeloZy4Dg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=9&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0&biw=1152&bih=472

TristanPeter

Discodog wrote: »

I really would get her permission especially as she may now get emails in response to this mail.

Good point. I'll let her know that I posted it up

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

There is also the fact that there is one factory in the country that slaughters horses and in the height of summer the waiting list was 3 months long, I can't imagine what it is now at this stage! .

As someone who would love their own horse but just don't have the time right now this breaks my heart.
What's even sadder is that horses are so stoic, the will never show pain or discomfort until things get really bad. Its depressing to see such noble animals being treated so awfully