The Ballon d'OR Final 3

srfc19

Seaneh wrote: »

Michael Owen won the Ballon d'or.
Awards mean feck all.

You can't be serious, do you not remember how good Owen was then. It wasn't the Owen who's sitting in the Utd stands now.
To say Puyol is an average defender and only won all them individual awards because it was a popularity contest is ridiculous.

#15

Ush1 wrote: »

I'd love if this discussion was about Roy Keane and see how different opinions are.

Warper

Dempsey wrote: »

Its quite disturbing that the Gibson comment has to be pointed out as sarcasm because I think some of you actually thought I was being serious.

Yes, I am being serious when I say that Puyol is no better than Richard Dunne. He doesnt get shown up regularly because his teammates are excellent at controlling possession and are on the front foot in most matches. But when they are under pressure and he enivatably is caught out, the fans dont jump on his back because he is catalan.

Only Barca fanboys will argue that he should be on a Ballon D'Or shortlist ahead or at the expense of players like Samuel or Lucio, players who were actually key to their teams success.

Ya Puyol is a useless defender, if it wasnt for his long hair he would be playing for Stoke. He is an integral part of so many crap teams like Barca and Spain. Give me Dunne anyday of the week.

Ush1

Dempsey wrote: »

Its quite disturbing that the Gibson comment has to be pointed out as sarcasm because I think some of you actually thought I was being serious.

Yes, I am being serious when I say that Puyol is no better than Richard Dunne. He doesnt get shown up regularly because his teammates are excellent at controlling possession and are on the front foot in most matches. But when they are under pressure and he enivatably is caught out, the fans dont jump on his back because he is catalan.

Only Barca fanboys will argue that he should be on a Ballon D'Or shortlist ahead or at the expense of players like Samuel or Lucio, players who were actually key to their teams success.

What's a fanboy, is that the same as a fan?

I'm not saying Puyol should be on the shortlist, I'm disputing:

a)Him being word class is laughable and
b)He is an equal footballer to Richard Dunne.

They retain possession because their defenders can retain possession. A centre half at Barca is expected to use their feet just aswell as their head. Richard Dunne would double his own goal tally with the amount of back passes he would recieve from Xavi, he would just be tripping over the ball.....And I like Dunne.

Which players around him are constantly making him look good? He's been there quite some time and seen alot players around him come and go yet he's been there the whole time winning titles. Puyol is actually alot better at standing a player up than Pique. Probably positionally better aswell.

Ush1

#15 wrote: »

Both club captains, both some what typified by their will to win, both heavily decorated. Apart from Puyol also winning the World Cup and Euros.

Dempsey

Warper wrote: »

Ya Puyol is a useless defender, if it wasnt for his long hair he would be playing for Stoke. He is an integral part of so many crap teams like Barca and Spain. Give me Dunne anyday of the week.

I never called Puyol useless. I've described him as 'good' in this thread if you bothered to read the thread (easy to see that you havent) but you rather jump in feet first spouting waffle. Well Done.

Dempsey

Ush1 wrote: »

What's a fanboy, is that the same as a fan?

I'm not saying Puyol should be on the shortlist, I'm disputing:

a)Him being word class is laughable and
b)He is an equal footballer to Richard Dunne.

They retain possession because their defenders can retain possession. A centre half at Barca is expected to use their feet just aswell as their head. Richard Dunne would double his own goal tally with the amount of back passes he would recieve from Xavi, he would just be tripping over the ball.....And I like Dunne.

Which players around him are constantly making him look good? He's been there quite some time and seen alot players around him come and go yet he's been there the whole time winning titles. Puyol is actually alot better at standing a player up than Pique. Probably positionally better aswell.

There is a difference between fan and fanboy alright.

I've watched Puyol all his career, Barcelona and Spain's recent successes arent down to him. He was there when everyone and their dog was blaming Barca's defence, with him being singled out on many occasions, when they failed to live up to their hype that their attacking options created.

There is a huge contrast in the quality of player that lines up with Dunne and that which Puyol lines up with every week. I'd love to see him in a team that often has their backs to the wall for 90 minutes like Dunne has all his career. All the hype and nominations for individual awards would evaporate in the blink of an eye.

Ush1

Dempsey wrote: »

There is a difference between fan and fanboy alright.

What's the difference?

Dempsey wrote: »

I've watched Puyol all his career, Barcelona and Spain's recent successes arent down to him. He was there when everyone and their dog was blaming Barca's defence, with him being singled out on many occasions, when they failed to live up to their hype that their attacking options created.

Umm, "everyone"(usually English/Irish pundits) still spews out that tired old cliche of pretty much all Spanish teams and the NT are weak at the back. They usually talk about Puyol as being the best of a bad bunch actually but they're still wrong.

I've seen Puyol in as much as you can use the line "win the match single handedly". He's scored many crucial goals for club and country including many MOTM performances. You simply don't last that long as Barca captain if you don't seriously add something to the side.

Dempsey wrote: »

There is a huge contrast in the quality of player that lines up with Dunne and that which Puyol lines up with every week. I'd love to see him in a team that often has their backs to the wall for 90 minutes like Dunne has all his career. All the hype and nominations for individual awards would evaporate in the blink of an eye.

You won't see it because Puyol is too good for such teams. That's amost as bad as Andy Grays "can Messi do it on a cold night in Stoke?".

Pepe LeFrits

Sid Lowe has a good article on this.

The number of people involved in voting for the ballon d'Or has been increasing and with the merger of the award with the less regarded FIFA World Player, it went from 96 votes last time to 427 now (international managers + captains now vote). According to Lowe's count if it used the same format as last year, Sneijder would have won the ballon d'Or, while Messi would have placed 4th (though presumably he would have won the FIFA award).

Dempsey

Ush1 wrote: »

What's the difference?

Umm, "everyone"(usually English/Irish pundits) still spews out that tired old cliche of pretty much all Spanish teams and the NT are being weak at the back. They usually talk about Puyol as being the best of a bad bunch actually but they're still wrong.

I've seen Puyol in as much as you can use the line "win the match single handedly". He's scored many crucial goals for club and country including many MOTM performances. You simply don't last that long as Barca captain if you don't seriously add something to the side.

You won't see it because Puyol is too good for such teams. That's amost as bad as Andy Grays "can Messi do it on a cold night in Stoke?".

Is google broken?

I dont care what the pundits say and tbh I dont really care what you say. There isnt anything you can say to change my opinion of him.

Again he's captain because of his background and personality. If he dropped off the face of the earth, Xavi would have the armband, Valdes is 3rd in line, and surprise surprise Iniesta is 4th in line. Is the penny dropping yet??

Ush1

Dempsey wrote: »

Is google broken?

I dont care what the pundits say and tbh I dont really care what you say. There isnt anything you can say to change my opinion of him.

Again he's captain because of his background and personality. If he dropped off the face of the earth, Xavi would have the armband, Valdes is 3rd in line, and surprise surprise Iniesta is 4th in line. Is the penny dropping yet??

Yes, the penny that La Masia produces fantastic footballers. I certainly agree.:)

Oh, and...

Warper

Dempsey wrote: »

I never called Puyol useless. I've described him as 'good' in this thread if you bothered to read the thread (easy to see that you havent) but you rather jump in feet first spouting waffle. Well Done.

You described Dunne as good a defender as Puyol, that is enough for me. If you think that, there is no point even debating it with you, you obviously havn't got a clue about soccer.

Dempsey

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, the penny that La Masia produces fantastic footballers. I certainly agree.:)

La Masia certainly does produce fantastic players. Messi is a fantastic product of that system, yet he isnt considered for captaincy now or the near future. Wonder why....

Dempsey

Warper wrote: »

You described Dunne as good a defender as Puyol, that is enough for me. If you think that, there is no point even debating it with you, you obviously havn't got a clue about soccer.

Who died and made you important??

Ush1

Dempsey wrote: »

La Masia certainly does produce fantastic players. Messi is a fantastic product of that system, yet he isnt considered for captaincy now or the near future. Wonder why....

I'd say mainly that he's only 23 and doesn't exhibit much captain-esque qualities.

Dempsey

Ush1 wrote: »

I'd say mainly that he's only 23 and doesn't exhibit much captain-esque qualities.

Neither does Puyol to look at but both know better :pac:

Ush1

Dempsey wrote: »

Neither does Puyol to look at but both know better :pac:

Riiiiight.;)

Also, Iniesta is not Catalan. Sort of skews your theory.

Dempsey

Ush1 wrote: »

Riiiiight.;)

Also, Iniesta is not Catalan. Sort of skews your theory.

Never said he was catalan but does he strike you as classic captain material?

Ush1

Dempsey wrote: »

Never said he was catalan but does he strike you as classic captain material?

Not really, but he's fourth choice. Puyol certainly would strike me as captain material. Probably helps that he's Catalan and that probably goes for most clubs that they have preference for the captain to be local. He understands the club and is a one club man.

Sure Van Bommel is Bayerns first ever non German captain, however I'm sure all their other captains were there on merit, not just where they were from.

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

Riiiiight.;)

Also, Iniesta is not Catalan. Sort of skews your theory.

No, but he is from a village an hour and a half from Valencia and grew up speaking Catalan as his first language. Sorta skews it back a bit.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

No, but he is from a village an hour and a half from Valencia and grew up speaking Catalan as his first language. Sorta skews it back a bit.

Valencia is not Catalonia. It doesn't skew it. They are top players of which Puyol has all the attibutes to be a captain. Iniesta is fourth choice and is not Catalan.

From Wiki:

Puyol is known for his intense commitment and ruggedness as a defender. According to Barcelona's head doctor, Puyol is "the strongest, who has the quickest reactions, and who has the most explosive strength."[11] Club fans refer to him as "The Wall".[12] Miguel Ángel Nadal, who played with him for a short period of time, said, "Carles plays with maturity, has great positional sense, and above all, has pride in his shirt."[11]
Puyol is known for his leadership and work ethic. He often continues training alone after the end of a team practice session or on days off.[7] He said in 2010, "I don't have Romário's technique, [Marc] Overmars' pace or [Patrick] Kluivert's strength. But I work harder than the others. I'm like the student who is not as clever, but revises for his exams and does OK in the end."[11] He is often described as the heart of the Barcelona team. Fellow defender Gerard Piqué said: "He's someone who, even if you're winning 3-0 and there's a few seconds left in the game will shout at the top of his voice at you if he thinks your concentration is going."[13] Another former team mate said, "Even four goals down he thinks we can still win."[7] Another Barcelona player described Puyol as "a pain in the arse" but that "that's exactly what we need".[7]

Sounds like a captain to me.

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

Valencia is not Catalonia.

No **** sherlock, he isn't from Valencia, he is from a village in Albacete an hour and a half from Valencia, in a region where the majority of people are ethnicly Catalan and speak Catalan as their first language. That whole stretch of coast, whether they are in the province of Catalonia or not, is a majority Catalan area.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

No **** sherlock, he isn't from Valencia, he is from a village in Albacete an hour and a half from Valencia, in a region where the majority of people are ethnicly Catalan and speak Catalan as their first language. That whole stretch of coast, whether they are in the province of Catalonia or not, is a majority Catalan area.

So why bother mentioning Valencia? Again, the fact is he ain't Catalan.

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

So why bother mentioning Valencia? Again, the fact is he ain't Catalan.

He isn't the province of Catalonia, that doesn't mean he isn't Catalan.
I mentioned Valencia because it's the closest city to him.

Hm is from an area inside the "Països Catalans". Which roughly translates to Catalan Countries.

Here's a little map. Fuentealbilla is the village he is from, for the record.



Everywhere in orange = Països Catalans. People who live there, even though most of the area is outside the province of Catalonia, are still Catalan.

Do you comprehend this yet?

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

He isn't the province of Catalonia, that doesn't mean he isn't Catalan.
I mentioned Valencia because it's the closest city to him.

Hm is from an area inside the "Països Catalans". Which roughly translates to Catalan Countries.

Here's a little map. Fuentealbilla is the village he is from, for the record.



Everywhere in orange = Països Catalans. People who live there, even though most of the area is outside the province of Catalonia, are still Catalan.

Do you comprehend this yet?

I know where he is from but the point remains he's not from Catalonia and was brought there after a number of years. It's gone fairly off topic at this stage, from the Ballon d'OR to Catalan conspiracies.

redout

Only a small handful of people on this forum watch Barca every week without fail and I could probably name them.

In fact an even smaller amount actually watch la Liga on here - and no that doesnt mean Barca and Madrid - there are another 18 teams believe it or not.

I doubt many could tell me which members support what teams in la liga - would be amazed if more than the half a dozen I have in my head could.

We do have people that actually support other teams.

Then there are the experts, mainly but not solely from the EPL who come and tell us what is what.

Basically these are the people that watch the occasional game (Barca and/or Madrid naturally), read the results online and look at youtube for the goals if even bothered. Oh and dont forget the big champions league games because they constitute watching la liga as well.

Now even though they dont watch regularly or actually know much they should be listened to because........eh, they just should apparently.

To be perfectly honest I dont particularly value a persons opinion of a player, club nor league for that matter when I am certain that they dont watch said player, club nor league not half enough to actually come to a coherent position beyond the typical generic one.

As regards Puyo - Barca in general lack organisation and leadership in defence when he doesnt play - have done for as long as I can remember - the experts of course know this.

Pique certainly does not provide it yet, though I expect him to step it up once Puyo is gone, Abidal does his job but nothing else and as for Alves, that chap spends so much time in the opposition half Puyo and co must wonder if he actually is in fact a defender!

As for the captain - Pique I reckon is the next long term capita - Xavi will be nothing more than a short term stop gap but will allow Pique another year or two to mature.

Now, where was I. Ah yes, these same experts on here would find it hard pressed to name more than 2 la Liga managers outside of the obvious two. Most likely would struggle to name more than 3 or 4 stadiums if even, a part from the obvious two and most definitely wouldnt have a clue where the bulk of the teams are actually situated. As for transfers, gossip and team news etc - nada de nada i'm afraid.

I mean these people know sweet FA about the league, its teams and the goings ons and actually expect to be taken seriously - well, like seriously, fcuk off!

I mean you wouldnt see me pop into the serie a, LOI or Bundesliga thread and claiming this, stating that and tell you this. Why? Well, because I have more cop on than to go talking about something I really dont know a great deal about and if I did I would expect nothing less than to be treated with scepticism.

Fcuk it, sure what do I know. Probably just rambling on but to be honest I personally only pay attention to and have respect for peoples posts whom I know actually watch the league. The rest are usually ignored or else taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Me encanta ser un seguidor de la Liga

Seaneh

redout wrote: »

would struggle to name more than 3 or 4 stadiums if even, a part from the obvious two and most definitely wouldnt have a clue where the bulk of the teams are actually situated.

I've been in 5 of the current top flight stadia in spain and 3 of the Segunda.

Granted, a few of them were in the same towns and 3 of them are in towns within spitting distance of each other.

Just so you know like.

p.s. None of them are in Barcelona, I don't mind the city itself, but I'd no interest in watching a game there, especially when the only tickets going were in the home section each time I'd been there.

redout

Seaneh wrote: »

I've been in 5 of the current top flight stadia in spain and 3 of the Segunda.

Granted, a few of them were in the same towns and 3 of them are in towns within spitting distance of each other.

Just so you know like.

p.s. None of them are in Barcelona, I don't mind the city itself, but I'd no interest in watching a game there, especially when the only tickets going were in the home section each time I'd been there.

I have been in 15 apparently! shocked myself there - either current or former la Liga stadiums.

Been pretty much everywhere bar Asturias and the Basque region in terms of stadiums.

Really dieing to go to San Mames truth be told - better do something pronto because they are knocking it down soon I think - awful shame that.

Seaneh

I've been to both in Seville, both in Madrid, San Sabastian, Pamplona, Bilbao, Vigo and Las Palmas...

Personal highlights being Vigo and San Sabastian.

eagle eye

redout wrote: »

I have been in 15 apparently! shocked myself there - either current or former la Liga stadiums.

Been pretty much everywhere bar Asturias and the Basque region in terms of stadiums.

Really dieing to go to San Mames truth be told - better do something pronto because they are knocking it down soon I think - awful shame that.

Yeah its pretty sad to see that happening.

Seaneh

redout wrote: »

Really dieing to go to San Mames truth be told - better do something pronto because they are knocking it down soon I think - awful shame that.

That, and they are gonna be moving out soon enough, aren't they?
Locals kept telling me about their new stadium over 2 years ago.

Seaneh

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah its pretty sad to see that happening.

Have they ever been relegated before?

redout

Seaneh wrote: »

I've been to both in Seville, both in Madrid, San Sabastian, Pamplona, Bilbao, Vigo and Las Palmas...

Personal highlights being Vigo and San Sabastian.

There are actually four in Madrid.

Well 3 current and one former.

Getafe and Rayo Vallecano being the other two.

Never been to Vigo but done the Riazor also in Galicia.

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah its pretty sad to see that happening.

Aye, suppose to be one of the great stadiums.

redout

Bilbao have never been relegated which is astonishing considering the basque only policy they employ.

Most people aren't aware but they have two world cup winners in the squad.

Most copas after Barca.

Afaik they are staying pretty much in the same spot.

Actually think of a fifth in Madrid - Alcorcon the minnows who thumped Real Madrid 4 - 0 last season though that really resembles a training complex truth be told.

Soby

Why didn't we ge to vote in the coach or captain category and only the media?

CorkMan

redout wrote: »

Actually think of a fifth in Madrid - Alcorcon the minnows who thumped Real Madrid 4 - 0 last season though that really resembles a training complex truth be told.

I can remember Rayo de Vallecano being in La Liga. They are based in a working class suburb of Madrid.

Seaneh

well I didn't count Getafe as madrid for the same reason as I wouldn't count Bolton as manchester or luton as london. Its close but its a separate city/town. For about vallecano ! Never heard of the other team.

Dolph Starbeam

redout wrote: »

I have been in 15 apparently! shocked myself there - either current or former la Liga stadiums.

Been pretty much everywhere bar Asturias and the Basque region in terms of stadiums.

Really dieing to go to San Mames truth be told - better do something pronto because they are knocking it down soon I think - awful shame that.

San Mames Barria isn't expected to be open until 2013 and finished in 2014 (whoever the hell is building it are taken there time) so you still have a couple years to get there, i haven't been either, really must get over for a game, the atmosphere at the cup game against Barca was amazing.

redout wrote: »

Bilbao have never been relegated which is astonishing considering the basque only policy they employ.

Most people aren't aware but they have two world cup winners in the squad.

Most copas after Barca.

Afaik they are staying pretty much in the same spot.

Add to that afaik they have behind Barca and Real Madrid provided most players for the National team.

Hammer Archer

Soby wrote: »

Why didn't we ge to vote in the coach or captain category and only the media?

Was wondering that myself. Did the FAI lose the voting slips or something?

redout

CorkMan wrote: »

I can remember Rayo de Vallecano being in La Liga. They are based in a working class suburb of Madrid.

Vallecano are within the city itself. You could walk to there stadium within 15/20mins from atoche.

Seaneh wrote: »

well I didn't count Getafe as madrid for the same reason as I wouldn't count Bolton as manchester or luton as london. Its close but its a separate city/town. For about vallecano ! Never heard of the other team.

Getafe would be considered a suburb of the city of madrid just as Alcorcon. They both more or less straddle the m40 basically the equivalent of the m50 in Dublin. If you want to get technical then I suppose I could just say that Madrid is not just a city but actually an entire region within Spain just like Galicia, Catalunya or Andalusia. Again many people wouldn't be aware of that and just know of it being a city. But without being anal it is not really any different to say blanchardstown straddling the m50 - still considered a suburb of Dublin and if you asked someone from blanch were they are from they would tell you Dublin. I couldn't comment on Bolton or Luton.

Seaneh

redout wrote: »

atoche.

I hate that train station with a passion...

Seaneh

redout wrote: »

atoche.

I hate that train station with a passion...

patmac

Soby wrote: »

Why didn't we ge to vote in the coach or captain category and only the media?

Seems like it was a total shambles by FIFA. France Football used to run this but FIFA chipped in to add their World Player to the more prestigious Ballon D'or. France Football collected all 154 votes from the journalists, but FIFA failed to collect votes from 70 of the 208 countries votes of both captain and manager a total of 420 points including Ireland and Wales. The words piss up and brewery spring to mind.

m@cc@

FlawedGenius wrote: »

Hard to believe Michael Owen won this back in 2001.

I can only assume you're referring to the time involved.

Paparazzo

patmac wrote: »

Seems like it was a total shambles by FIFA. France Football used to run this but FIFA chipped in to add their World Player to the more prestigious Ballon D'or. France Football collected all 154 votes from the journalists, but FIFA failed to collect votes from 70 of the 208 countries votes of both captain and manager a total of 420 points including Ireland and Wales. The words piss up and brewery spring to mind.

Heard this on off the ball. Norway voted and asked fifa to confirm they got them, fifa said they did. But then their vote wasn't counted. When fifa were questioned they said they never received Norways vote!

pickarooney

FIFA probably said "No way we got your vote."

Paparazzo

pickarooney wrote: »

FIFA probably said "No way we got your vote."

The mod of "creative writing"? Hang your head!