The Manhattan Declaration (Christian Response Only)

JimiTime

Hi fellow boardsie Christians. Have any of you heard of this declaration?


http://manhattandeclaration.org/the-declaration/read.aspx

I've read it through, and think it sound. I'd like to get your opinions on it.

homer911

What are they hoping to achieve with this?

and why couldnt they have put "In summary.." at the end - very few will read all this

JimiTime

homer911 wrote: »

What are they hoping to achieve with this?

From the website:

It was born out of an urgent concern about growing efforts to marginalize the Christian voice in the public square, to redefine marriage, and to move away from the biblical view of the sanctity of life.

and why couldnt they have put "In summary.." at the end - very few will read all this

You'd have to ask the folk at the website:) I directed you to the actual declaration. The homepage etc lays things out in summary.

So what do you think of it and its mission?

Festus

homer911 wrote: »

What are they hoping to achieve with this?

and why couldnt they have put "In summary.." at the end - very few will read all this

In summary...

Because we honor justice and the common good, we will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo-destructive research, assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other anti-life act; nor will we bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships, treat them as marriages or the equivalent, or refrain from proclaiming the truth, as we know it, about morality and immorality and marriage and the family. We will fully and ungrudgingly render to Caesar what is Caesar's. But under no circumstances will we render to Caesar what is God's.

and there is a shorter version

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

PDN

Having glanced over it, it seems like a very reasonable statement to me.

JimiTime

I'm not actively asking for folk to pick it apart for flaws etc, but if you see anything in it that would raise your eyebrow I'd love for you to share it. This is for Christians btw, I realise others could take exception to things in it.

Zombrex

homer911 wrote: »

What are they hoping to achieve with this?

From this

It is important to understand that the Manhattan Declaration is a call of Christian Conscience. It speaks to the church just as much as it speaks to the larger culture. In fact it is a clarion call to the church to take a stand on three vital issues: The sanctity of life, the dignity of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, and religious liberty.
...
As the movement grows and as more and more people across America pledge to be uncompromising in their faith, the Manhattan Declaration will have a huge impact on our society. By standing united and in speaking the truth on the vital issues of life, marriage, and liberty we will serve the common good move our nation toward justice.

it seems to be a movement to, as one says, stand up and be counted in an effort to protect what they see as traditional Christian values from being eroded from the church.

Jester Minute

I signed it when it came out first. Although there are some concerns that it's not totally faithful to Catholic teachings in specific areas, beggers can't be choosers, and if it is good enough for Archbishop Chaput of Denver, then it is good enough for me.

There is also a UK version, The Westminster Declaration: http://www.westminster2010.org.uk/declaration/

JimiTime

Jester Minute wrote: »

I signed it when it came out first. Although there are some concerns that it's not totally faithful to Catholic teachings in specific areas,

i hope I wont regret this, but I just went through it again in light of your comment above and did not see what you are referring to. What is it that not faithful to RC teaching?

There is also a UK version, The Westminster Declaration: http://www.westminster2010.org.uk/declaration/

Apart from the Manhattan one being more articulate and detailed, I find that this Westminster one has a bit more, how can I put it, 'attitude' in it? If that makes sense. Whereas the Manhattan one seems to be approaching it from a point of concern, there is a sense of rolling up the sleeves for a fight in the Westminster one. You get me?

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Apart from the Manhattan one being more articulate and detailed, I find that this Westminster one has a bit more, how can I put it, 'attitude' in it? If that makes sense. Whereas the Manhattan one seems to be approaching it from a point of concern, there is a sense of rolling up the sleeves for a fight in the Westminster one. You get me?

I like them both, in fact I just signed the Westminster one.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I like them both, in fact I just signed the Westminster one.

I don't actually object to the content. Maybe its all in my head, but I just got more a sense of 'resistance' or something with it. Maybe its the expansiveness of the Manhattan Declaration that made it come across a little more 'gentle' for want of a better term.

Jester Minute

JimiTime wrote: »

i hope I wont regret this, but I just went through it again in light of your comment above and did not see what you are referring to. What is it that not faithful to RC teaching?

Apart from the Manhattan one being more articulate and detailed, I find that this Westminster one has a bit more, how can I put it, 'attitude' in it? If that makes sense. Whereas the Manhattan one seems to be approaching it from a point of concern, there is a sense of rolling up the sleeves for a fight in the Westminster one. You get me?

I am not saying that it is problematic in any particular way as regards Catholic teaching, but some traditionalist Catholics had certain issues, I think with the elements concerning religious liberty. I don't know enough about that to know if their concerns are valid but I think it is probably nit-picking. I'd be happy to sign both declarations and recommend all Christians to do so.

wolfsbane

JimiTime wrote: »

Hi fellow boardsie Christians. Have any of you heard of this declaration?


http://manhattandeclaration.org/the-declaration/read.aspx

I've read it through, and think it sound. I'd like to get your opinions on it.

I've read the Westminster version and find it expresses well my own concerns and position. I have not signed it, however, as doing so would imply I recognised all of the leading signatories as fellow-Christians.
_________________________________________________________________
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

santing

wolfsbane wrote: »

I've read the Westminster version and find it expresses well my own concerns and position. I have not signed it, however, as doing so would imply I recognised all of the leading signatories as fellow-Christians.

As I am not an UK citizen, I cannot sign it. But I think the fundamental flaw in this declaration is more a humanistic post-christian declaration than a Christian declaration. We try in this declaration not to define what a Christian is or what should be the first concern for a Christian. If for example Lord Carey or Cardinal O'Brien (and I don't know nothing about them) do not have the new life from God by faith in the finished work of His Son, they have signed a very good moral declaration, but are still on their way to hell.
So yes, this statement is good, but my primary declaration must always be about a personal love relationship with my Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Morbert

the institution of marriage, already buffeted by promiscuity, infidelity and divorce, is in jeopardy of being redefined to accommodate fashionable ideologies

I have asked this before, and I sill don't understand it. Divorce has no place in the Christian view of marriage, correct? It is a widespread practice that is devastating religious marriage. Homosexual marriages, by comparison, apply to a small minority of people. Yet in statements like the Manhattan declaration above, very little attention is given to the issue of divorce (it is only mentioned in passing.). Why? Have Christians simply given up that fight? Surely it is the far bigger and more serious issue.

santing

Morbert wrote: »

I have asked this before, and I sill don't understand it. Divorce has no place in the Christian view of marriage, correct? It is a widespread practice that is devastating religious marriage. Homosexual marriages, by comparison, apply to a small minority of people. Yet in statements like the Manhattan declaration above, very little attention is given to the issue of divorce (it is only mentioned in passing.). Why? Have Christians simply given up that fight? Surely it is the far bigger and more serious issue.

Divorce has indeed no place in the Christian view of marriage, it is a sinful breakdown of a lifelong relationship. But at the same time it happens, and we need a Christian response of what to do when it happens (incl. as much advise of how to prevent it from happening!)
The Manhattan declaration has a reference to divorce - and it probably could be stronger, given that it comes from the States. The Westminster one is good in my opinion, it defines mariages as a lifelong relationship - no space for divorce there!

Looking at Ireland the top three problems I would see are:

• Living together outside of marriage
• Abuse/violence in marriage/family
• Parenting Problems

Neither divorce or homosexual relations make it into my top three "problem" areas - but that is my perspectice!

KamiKazi

Christian response only?

Are you afraid of hearing the opinions of non-brainwashed people or something??

PDN

KamiKazi wrote: »

Christian response only?

Are you afraid of hearing the opinions of non-brainwashed people or something??

No, but we would appreciate a conversation among Christians on a Christian issue unhindered by trolls.

Fanny Cradock

KamiKazi wrote: »

Christian response only?

Yeah, coz, you know, we don't ever allow any dissenting voices here. It would just shatter our faith if "freethinkers" such as yourself were allowed to post.