Stop management company clamping

alexonhisown

Has any private housing estate ever stopped the management company implementing clamping

The_Conductor

alexonhisown wrote: »

Has any private housing estate ever stopped the management company implementing clamping

Certainly. It is an activity that would have to be sanctioned at an AGM/EGM- and similarly in order to instruct the Management Company to cease- a similar motion would have to pass at an AGM or EGM.....

alexonhisown

It certainly was not sanctioned at AGM because there hasnt been an AGM since May 2009

alexonhisown

Any advice on how to stop them bringing clamping into the estate

The_Conductor

Check exactly when the last AGM was, and get onto the Company Secretary. If the last one was in May 2009- you have no idea whether accounts have been lodged with the CRO, you are possibly in breach of Company law over the length between AGMs, and ultimately the company could possibly be at risk of being struck off.

If the company secretary is unwilling to discuss your concerns with you- and you are keeping the terms of your lease- you have a case for pursuing the Management Company under supression of minority shareholder rights....... Its time consuming (and possibly expensive)- so I'd explore any other avenues open at first

Paulw

alexonhisown wrote: »

Any advice on how to stop them bringing clamping into the estate

Get a quorum of members of the management company, and call an EGM.

Beverley Macca

Management Agents take their instruction from the directors of your management company. Contact the directors and ask them why this decision was taken.

djimi

Is there a reason for clamping being brought in, ie do folk who dont live there use the place as a free car park during the day? Id say as a resident if you have a parking space then you have nothing to worry about so long as you keep to your parking space. Chances are if there is a reason for the clamping brought in then it will benefit you more than it will hinder you.

daithi2011

Is this Applewood Village, Swords management committee you are talking about.
There was an AGM there a few months ago. Everyone was against the clamping and wanted it to stop.
But the committee said that they were using it as a stick to make people pay their fees.
They did not offer to put it to a vote. They are a bunch of Nazis tbh.
Peoples visitors are getting clamped even when calling in for 5 mins. Clamping is even happening at midnight.
Even when people show they are residents, they are still having to pay after being clamped.

So then a few months ago the management agents quit, because the nazis were ordering them to keep clamping heavily and they didnt agree.

The latest is that there is now no management agent and the committee have issued maintenance fees for 2011.

In it they say you can pay by the month or 6 monthly and if you do either you will be charged interest.

The only way to avoid interest is to pay in full, but they wont even call an EGM after the agents quit.

2 Questions if anybody has the answers.

Is it even legal for a committee to charge interest?

If someone was to call for a vote on removing the clamping in the place at the next agm would the committee have to honour this?

They just ignore the owners and hide behind rules about numbers when asked about stepping down.

Paulw

daithi2011 wrote: »

2 Questions if anybody has the answers.

Is it even legal for a committee to charge interest?

If someone was to for a vote on removing the clamping in the place at the next agm would the committee have to honour this?

They just ignore the owners and hide behind rules about numbers when asked about stepping down.

In general, interest is detailed in the Lease Contract agreement, so you need to read that. It will tell you if they can, and the rates they can charge. I know from ours, yes, it is very legal and can be charged of a rate up to 20% per annum.

The directors are elected to run the company. While they usually vote on all major issues, I don't believe that they are bound by such a vote. Again, you would need to check your Lease Contract as well as the Articles of Association of your management company.

If you don't like the way the place is run, you should be able to get a quorum and call an EGM. You then then vote out the sitting directors and elect new directors.

daithi2011

Paulw wrote: »

In general, interest is detailed in the Lease Contract agreement, so you need to read that. It will tell you if they can, and the rates they can charge. I know from ours, yes, it is very legal and can be charged of a rate up to 20% per annum.

The directors are elected to run the company. While they usually vote on all major issues, I don't believe that they are bound by such a vote. Again, you would need to check your Lease Contract as well as the Articles of Association of your management company.

If you don't like the way the place is run, you should be able to get a quorum and call an EGM. You then then vote out the sitting directors and elect new directors.

Thanks for that.

Kosseegan

There are 2 ways to stop it.
a. Get an angle grinder and cut the clamps off.
b. Issue proceedings in the High Court for minority protection.

Either way the committee will give up very quickly.

athtrasna

Inciting criminal damage is not a good idea!

It's not about a committee, all owners have a say, that's what AGMs are for. If you don't go you can't complain. If you are just a resident you have no right to recourse other than through your landlord!

Kosseegan

Cutting off a private clamp is niot criminal damage. Putting on a clamp without express authority either statutry or by contract is a trespass. Selp
is allowed for trespass.

The_Conductor

Kosseegan wrote: »

Cutting off a private clamp is niot criminal damage. Putting on a clamp without express authority either statutry or by contract is a trespass. Selp
is allowed for trespass.

The communal areas, including the car park are vested in the Management Company. If the Management Company so decides- it can instruct a private clamping company to clamp every single vehicle in the car park. If you damage the clamps- you are committing criminal damage on private property. If you are entitled to park in the car park- either by virtue of your lease, or by other agreement, and are subsequently clamped- you have a case against the Management Company for breach of contract- nothing more, nothing less. You still do not have the right to damage the clamp however.

Paulw

Kosseegan wrote: »

Cutting off a private clamp is niot criminal damage. Putting on a clamp without express authority either statutry or by contract is a trespass. Selp
is allowed for trespass.

Cutting off a clamp is criminal damage.

They are clamping under contract from the management company. They are not trespassing at all. You don't own the parking space, you simply have exclusive use of it. The management company own the space.

You clearly don't understand the situation.

Kosseegan

Paulw wrote: »

Cutting off a clamp is criminal damage.

They are clamping under contract from the management company. They are not trespassing at all. You don't own the parking space, you simply have exclusive use of it. The management company own the space.

You clearly don't understand the situation.

They have no contract with the owner of the car. The management company has to have a contract with every user of the car park allowing them to clamp. There was a case in Waterford District Court recently where a Judge threw out a charge of criminal damage for releasing a clamp on private property. On the street there is statutory authority.
If the management company has given leases they cannot be altered even by resolution of the members of the company.

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.

The case originated when a clamp was removed from a car by its owner on January 5th last year. The judge ruled that the owner was entitled to remove something that was stuck to his car by whatever means and if it damages his car, he was entitled to claim damages.

While there where notices up in the car park informing motorists that clamping was in operation, Judge Harnett ruled that there were no laws to support that notice before dismissing the case.

ztoical

Kosseegan wrote: »

They have no contract with the owner of the car. The management company has to have a contract with every user of the car park allowing them to clamp. There was a case in Waterford District Court recently where a Judge threw out a charge of criminal damage for releasing a clamp on private property. On the street there is statutory authority.
If the management company has given leases they cannot be altered even by resolution of the members of the company.

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.
The case originated when a clamp was removed from a car by its owner on January 5th last year. The judge ruled that the owner was entitled to remove something that was stuck to his car by whatever means and if it damages his car, he was entitled to claim damages.

While there where notices up in the car park informing motorists that clamping was in operation, Judge Harnett ruled that there were no laws to support that notice before dismissing the case.

Your not comparing like with like here. WIT is a college campus not a houseing estate and as such has different rules regarding parking.

Kosseegan

ztoical wrote: »

Your not comparing like with like here. WIT is a college campus not a houseing estate and as such has different rules regarding parking.

It doesn't matter what rules you have regarding parking, you cannot clamp as a means of enforcing them.
The same principle applies. If you are the owner of land, you cannot clamp a trespassing car.

The_Conductor

Kosseegan wrote: »

It doesn't matter what rules you have regarding parking, you cannot clamp as a means of enforcing them.
The same principle applies. If you are the owner of land, you cannot clamp a trespassing car.

You're factually incorrect.

Clamping on private property is not specifically legislated on at present (though it is proposed to legislate in this area).

At the moment a Management Company may apply a clamp on a car in order to impose a lien or hold on your car pending the payment of a penalty.

This can be legally done, providing there is sufficient signage to warn drivers that clamping is in operation. If signs are not there or are not obvious to the average motorist then the clamping agency could be guilty of creating a nuisance, a trespass to your property and the unlawful interference with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle (normally used used in car theft). If sufficient warning is not given, the clamping agency, may, expose itself to both civil liability and also to criminal prosecution. A reasonable defense to removing a private clamp is that you were taking reasonable steps to abate the nuisance/trespass and retake possession of your car which was unlawfully interfered with.

If there are sufficient signs and the clamp was lawfully applied then you may be liable for prosecution for criminal damage done to property (formerly known as malicious damage).

Normally people who feel they are being unfairly clamped, are advised to pay the fee and have recorded on the receipt that they are paying 'without prejudice to the right to sue for its return and fair and reasonable compensation for the inconvenience'.

If a clamping company and/or Management Company make a complaint to the Gardai- the person who removed the clamp would be advised to see a criminal solicitor first and only furnish a statement under their advisement. Normally such a statement would be based on the argument that the person who removed the clamp was simply 'abating a nuisance, without intent to cause unnecessary damage', however if clear and present signage is displayed, it is highly likely that damages would be awarded against them.

Clamping on public property is entirely a different matter.

Kosseegan

smccarrick wrote: »

You're factually incorrect.

There clamping on private property is not specifically legislated on at present (though it is proposed to legislate in this area).

At the moment a Management Company may apply a clamp on a car in order to impose a lien or hold on your car pending the payment of a penalty.

This can be legally done, providing there is sufficient signage to warn drivers that clamping is in operation.
Clamping on public property is entirely a different matter.

WIT is private property. Signage alone has no meaning in law, according to the Court.
No one has ever been convicted of criminal damage to a clamp on private property. It is a myth peddled by management agents that it would be criminal damage to remove a clamp.

The_Conductor

Kosseegan wrote: »

WIT is private property. Signage alone has no meaning in law, according to the Court.
No one has ever been convicted of criminal damage to a clamp on private property. It is a myth peddled by management agents that it would be criminal damage to remove a clamp.

Check the case that you're quoting out.....
WIT (and their agent) prosecuted a student who removed the wheel of their car, along with the clamp still on it, put the whole lot in their boot and drove off. The charge was theft of the clamp. The clamp was subsequently returned to security at WIT. In court (case came up Thursday the 11th Jan 2007) the individual was acquitted of theft.

The person who parked in a prohibited manner was charged with theft of the clamp, when he removed his wheel, along with the clamp and drove off with it. He was acquitted. The end. There is no legal precedent established. WIT were foolish for charging him with theft (particularly as he had subsequently returned the clamp).

The charge in this case was theft of property- and it was dismissed. The end.

Kosseegan

Subsequent return is not a defence to theft. The clampers had no legal authority top put on the clamp. The student was entitled to self help. That is the legal basis for what happened. A person cannot walk into a shop, take something away for a period of time and bring it back. It would be theft.

The_Conductor

Kosseegan wrote: »

Subsequent return is not a defence to theft. The clampers had no legal authority top put on the clamp. The student was entitled to self help. That is the legal basis for what happened. A person cannot walk into a shop, take something away for a period of time and bring it back. It would be theft.

Please read what I said earlier in this thread. Clamping on private property is not covered under current legislation. There are plans to introduce legislation- it has not happened thus far however.

In the case of the WIT student, the clampers were not charged with anything whatsoever. The student was. His charge was theft. He was acquitted of theft. Judge Hartnett (surprise, surprise), entirely justifiable comment was that there is no current law to support clamping on private property. He did not state it was illegal. He did not rule on it, period. It was not a matter before the court. The theft of the clamp was the matter being adjudicated on, and that case was dismissed.

Kosseegan

smccarrick wrote: »

Please read what I said earlier in this thread. Clamping on private property is not covered under current legislation. There are plans to introduce legislation- it has not happened thus far however.

In the case of the WIT student, the clampers were not charged with anything whatsoever. The student was. His charge was theft. He was acquitted of theft. Judge Hartnett (surprise, surprise), entirely justifiable comment was that there is no current law to support clamping on private property. He did not state it was illegal. He did not rule on it, period. It was not a matter before the court. The theft of the clamp was the matter being adjudicated on, and that case was dismissed.

I have read what you said in previous posts.

I never said the clampers were charged. The Judge RULED that the owner of a vehicle was entitled to remove it by whatever means given that it had been put on the car while the car was on private land. The signs meant nothing in law. It is the same in an apartment block. Signs on the walls mean nothing. Unless provided for in the original lease theeee car owner can cut off the clamp.

ztoical

Kosseegan wrote: »

Unless provided for in the original lease theeee car owner can cut off the clamp.

If your renting the lease will state that you will need to follow the rules and regulations of the managament company of the building/block/estate etc including any changes made to these rules by the management company while you are a resident there. You have no say as a renter in alterations made.

If your an owner you will have been given [or should have been given] information on the management company, its set up and information on any up coming AGMs and results of any votes/minutes etc of said AGM's if you didn't attend.

You are trying to compare an issue with a state funded body like WIT with private residential property like an apartment block or Estate, it is a differnt issue.

From the Citizens information site:

Private car parks are not regulated by the Government in any way. Clamping on private property is not covered by legislation and owners must make sure that there are adequate signs and warnings notifying the public that clamping is in operation and that full contact details for the company enforcing the clamping are easily available.

daithi2011

Ok, i've been doing some checking on this. And have even spoken to someone who cut off a clamp and sent the clamping company a letter to say that he would be charging a fee of €100 per day if they did not come to collect their clamp, that he had cut off. They left him alone after a few threatening letters.

It looks like you can cut off a clamp from any private company. They might try to charge you for damaging the clamp, but you just send them a letter like that above and they wont come near you to get it back. They'll owe you more than the clamp is worth. Brilliant really.

I have spoken to nobody who has done this with a govt agency's clamp, so dont try it with them.

But the gist of what I have found out is you put a note on your car saying you are not responsible for the condition of any clamps attached to your car. If you get clamped you cut it off with an angle grinder or a bolt cutter and send the clamping company the letter charging them for the recovery and looking after of their clamp.

The_Conductor

I would emphasise that you might get away with this on private property- which is not covered under current legislation, however its an entirely different story on public property (and clamping can be carried out by private companies under contract on public property (SDCC, Dunlaoghaire Rathdown and Galway City Council have all outsourced clamping activities, other councils are planning on doing likewise).

It is neither legal, nor illegal, to clamp on private property- it quite simply is not covered in current legislation....... Judgements for destruction of property have gone in both directions- Judge Hartnett is reknowned for his comments on this (however even he hasn't issued any judgements one way or the other).

If you take an axle grinder or any other implement to a clamp- you are risking having legal action taken against you- this may be a civil matter, but its annoying as hell, getting a summons and spending a day hanging around the district court- normally for the management company to agree to drop everything just before you get in the door.........

In short- if you destroy someone else's property, or if you deprive someone of the use of theirs- you are at risk of a civil action, the outcome of which you can toss a coin over.........

daithi2011

smccarrick wrote: »

I would emphasise that you might get away with this on private property- which is not covered under current legislation, however its an entirely different story on public property (and clamping can be carried out by private companies under contract on public property (SDCC, Dunlaoghaire Rathdown and Galway City Council have all outsourced clamping activities, other councils are planning on doing likewise).

It is neither legal, nor illegal, to clamp on private property- it quite simply is not covered in current legislation....... Judgements for destruction of property have gone in both directions- Judge Hartnett is reknowned for his comments on this (however even he hasn't issued any judgements one way or the other).

If you take an axle grinder or any other implement to a clamp- you are risking having legal action taken against you- this may be a civil matter, but its annoying as hell, getting a summons and spending a day hanging around the district court- normally for the management company to agree to drop everything just before you get in the door.........

In short- if you destroy someone else's property, or if you deprive someone of the use of theirs- you are at risk of a civil action, the outcome of which you can toss a coin over.........

You are right. As I said, only do this on private property.
The people i've spoken to who have done it have said that they get threatening letters, but it never ever has gone beyond that once they sent a letter about a charge for "minding the clamp".

It has worked so well that the clampers wont even attempt to clamp those particular cars anymore, because they will just lose their clamps.

I will be doing this myself.

I dont see this ever going to court. Imagine the private clampers going to court on this and losing. It would be time to invest in portable angle grinders.

djimi

From seeing this issue arise in the motors forum, it seems that it is illegal for you to cut off the clamp and the clamping company could persue for your criminal damage to their clamp, but they will not do so as they know if they end up in court it could lead to questions being asked of their business that they would rather not be asked in court. So based on this (which Im only going on what Ive read so it might not be entirely true) if you were to cut off the clamp you are running the risk of prosecution for criminal damage if the clamping company do decide to persue, even if it is unlikely.

Im only relaying what comes up in motors from time to time so like I said it might not be entirely true or accurate. I still maintain that as a resident you have nothing to worry about so long as you park in your designated parking space!

Victor

daithi2011 wrote: »

Ok, i've been doing some checking on this. And have even spoken to someone who cut off a clamp and sent the clamping company a letter to say that he would be charging a fee of €100 per day if they did not come to collect their clamp, that he had cut off. They left him alone after a few threatening letters.

It looks like you can cut off a clamp from any private company. They might try to charge you for damaging the clamp, but you just send them a letter like that above and they wont come near you to get it back. They'll owe you more than the clamp is worth. Brilliant really.

Congratulations, you have just been banned from the apartment building / workplace / college car park.

daithi2011

Victor wrote: »

Congratulations, you have just been banned from the apartment building / workplace / college car park.

Wow. You;re good. ::rolleyes:
Well I wouldnt do it in the workplace. I have free parking.
They'll have a hard time banning me from my apartment car park.
Unless they want to install barriers on all the entrances to the complex and have
a pass. Somehow I think that wont happen.
Its more the vistors that I have who get clamped that is the problem. I only have one visitor pass and if i had 2 visitors they'll clamp the one who hasnt got one.
They've even clamped friends who have called in and got the pass and gone straight back out only for the clampers to be attaching the clamp to their car.
Sure im looking out the window at them now hiding at the end of the road, just waiting for a victim.