Moving guns through town ?

Lemming

Knight990 wrote: »

Several black plastic bags you can buy strong ones, if you double bag them they should hold up fine.

And if they rip?

Seriously, a carry case of some description is an investment and I cannot fathom why anybody would scrimp on the concept for the sake of about €20/30. At least with a case you also have added benefit of easy storage, protection from knocks, etc.

Lets just say you were stopped; black plastic bag(s) will really do you no favour on first-impressions and credibility with a Garda. Common sense should tell you that.

Knight990

Lemming wrote: »

And if they rip?

Seriously, a carry case of some description is an investment and I cannot fathom why anybody would scrimp on the concept for the sake of about €20/30. At least with a case you also have added benefit of easy storage, protection from knocks, etc.

Lets just say you were stopped; black plastic bag(s) will really do you no favour on first-impressions and credibility with a Garda. Common sense should tell you that.

Easy does it I'm simply offering a cheap temporary solution, the carry case is the best bet obviously.

Lemming

Knight990 wrote: »

Easy does it I'm simply offering a cheap temporary solution, the carry case is the best bet obviously.

A gym bag or a backpack of some description is infinitely better as a temporary solution to the notion of using a black plastic bag. There's just so many ways in which that can go wrong; not to mention plastic bagging can tend to 'form' around the shape of the object in question. Personally speaking, I'd be sweating buckets moving an airsoft gun from the boot of my car and indoors in a black plastic bag, never mind carrying through town.

In any case, I doubt the lads at the Office would be too happy with someone turning up with nothing but a couple of bin liners wrapped haphazardly around an AEG.

CaptainPrice

that may be the case but there have been points made on any kind of solution be it temperary or buying a bag, it still looks really dodgey having an RIF in town.

To the Garda you could be concealing a firearm or RIF. I dont know if you remember but 2 summers ago, the "phantom sniper of Pearse St." made a small newspaper headline. My mate came to my house and showed me it. Old ladies put into hospital from small wounds and shock. OK, illegal metal bbs, an overpowered rifle and he was set up in a building but this shows what people can have. even if it is stored seperately.Based on that story, if you found a lad in the street with anything like that on him I wouldnt think there is any way he could walk off still with it.
I have had my own in a bass guitar bag in town on several occasions. RIF was scopeless, i had the cylinder out and stored seperately and mag removed. The lad I dealt with also had his in a storebrand rifle case.
As it happened there was a student protest that particular day. If we had been searched, things would not have looked too good.
Its not the guards fault, its their job.

In the end I think ordinary evreyday methods of storing them can be classified as "concealment". this dates back to aincient times- martial arts weapons in the form of ordinary evreyday objects. Ultimately though if you dont look or act like you are up to no good, you blend in and dont warrant much attention from the authorities.

Perhaps a good way, if you need to go public transport or town is to have it in a box and wrapped in brown paper like a parcel? I know that if one buys training weapons in a martial arts store, they are wrapped in brown paper and noone pays any notice to them in the street. Even a 6 foot staff.

but as MagicIRL stated above, IAA clearance would be appreciated on this topic.

Lemming

CaptainPrice wrote: »

In the end I think ordinary evreyday methods of storing them can be classified as "concealment".

but as MagicIRL stated above, IAA clearance would be appreciated on this topic.

Sorry, but as Dex has already pointed out, what "clearance" do you need? How much more clear does it need to be? "Do not waive anything that looks like a gun around in public" (or words to that effect) is pretty clear in what it means. It means that you are going to have to "conceal" (and this isn't the US ... so why people are in a tissy over "concealment" is beyond me) whatever it is that you're carrying lest joe-soap-public see it, panic, and then you end up in trouble for brandishing in public. Common sense I would have thought, no?

Secondly, regardless of everything else; the site in question will turn these guys away if they turn up with boxes. So why it keeps getting discussed is a bit bemusing.

Witcher

CaptainPrice wrote: »

To the Garda you could be concealing a firearm or RIF. I dont know if you remember but 2 summers ago, the "phantom sniper of Pearse St." made a small newspaper headline. My mate came to my house and showed me it. Old ladies put into hospital from small wounds and shock. OK, illegal metal bbs, an overpowered rifle and he was set up in a building but this shows what people can have. even if it is stored seperately.Based on that story, if you found a lad in the street with anything like that on him I wouldnt think there is any way he could walk off still with it.

That was an air rifle;a firearm, it has absolutely nothing to do with airsoft.

Look the fact is the gun should be in a case or bag wherever you are. A guard wouldn't accuse you of "concealing" it by having it in a bag, what's the alternative..carrying it in plain sight? Think about it.

As long as you're going to/from an airsoft site or shop and not just popping down to Tesco to buy milk with an M4 "concealed" you'll be fine.

CaptainPrice

It would be nice to have some final verdict on what to do or how to do it.
Regardless on where it is. Concealment, hiding something, more often than not implies a use. Like a knife in a pocket maybe?
Obviously if someone can be incognito enough to not attract any attention than evreything is fine.
Im asking that "if- on the offchance a guard askes what is in your bag, what kind of protocol is expected to be followed in order for you to have grounds to keep your gun and continue on your way?"
And to hell with whatever mentioned site wont let me in for having a box. Its their business and policy. My preferred site isnt as strick on something silly like a box so its of no concern to me.

Leftyflip

Like has been said, thats what you do...

Witcher

CaptainPrice wrote: »

It would be nice to have some final verdict on what to do or how to do it.
Regardless on where it is. Concealment, hiding something, more often than not implies a use. Like a knife in a pocket maybe?
Obviously if someone can be incognito enough to not attract any attention than evreything is fine.
Im asking that "if- on the offchance a guard askes what is in your bag, what kind of protocol is expected to be followed in order for you to have grounds to keep your gun and continue on your way?"
And to hell with whatever mentioned site wont let me in for having a box. Its their business and policy. My preferred site isnt as strick on something silly like a box so its of no concern to me.

You should always tell a guard if you're carrying one, whether it's a bag or in the boot of a car being searched. That's what guys transporting real steel do, if it works for them it'll work for us.

CaptainPrice

Blay wrote: »

That was an air rifle;a firearm, it has absolutely nothing to do with airsoft.

Look the fact is the gun should be in a case or bag wherever you are. A guard wouldn't accuse you of "concealing" it by having it in a bag, what's the alternative..carrying it in plain sight? Think about it.

As long as you're going to/from an airsoft site or shop and not just popping down to Tesco to buy milk with an M4 "concealed" you'll be fine.

why not read my point instead of telling me what to think?

A gun thats not a gun but does look like one and fires pellets. Airsoft is pretty new in ireland and not evreyone knows about it. Do not think the average joe or anyone else for that matter needs to link the story to the sport. But some will.

As to an alternative, how about dont go airsofting? its not vital to do in all seriousness. wait until you can have a lift down or something.

Guards can accuse you of whatever they want. Wether its true or not is where the accusations are dropped. One asked my buddy if he was trying to break into a school when he saw him making a coke rocket (a mento in a bottle of coke) near the building. Such is their job. And a coke "rocket" vs. something that looks identical to a gun in a backpack/case in a public area.

As it happens, the local tesco (or spar in this case) did not approve of the lads playing turning up in their bdus to buy their lunch at break in the days gaming. Mud is part of the reason here too but its not that bad considering the amount of business the owners are getting. Apparently people were a little aprehensive of a group of youths turning up to the shop to buy their lunch. And at the same time the site itself is 30 feet away.

MagicIRL

If its all so fine, does that mean I can go through town, with my AEG in a carrycase/bag - be stopped and searched, and not loose my AEG?

Thats what I want to know, I want as little risk as possible when moving my AEGs around. I asked for IAA clearance on the topic, because they, compared to the many keyboard warriros that reside here, would know exactly how transport should take place.

Im regretting even asking for clarifaction now.

gerrowadat

Concealing a weapon is an offence.

An airsoft gun isn't a weapon, ergo concealing it isn't on offence. Quite the opposite, it's a requirement under law.

As for RIFs being toys, that was arguably the case until the CJA 2009. Now they're items which have specific legislation around brandishing them, which kind of does away with the 'toy' argument.

swiftblade

MagicIRL wrote: »

If its all so fine, does that mean I can go through town, with my AEG in a carrycase/bag - be stopped and searched, and not loose my AEG?

Thats what I want to know, I want as little risk as possible when moving my AEGs around. I asked for IAA clearance on the topic, because they, compared to the many keyboard warriros that reside here, would know exactly how transport should take place.

Im regretting even asking for clarifaction now.

You have to remember it's up to the individual Garda that stops you. Sure, you are perfectly intitled to carry it (once concealed) when on your way to a skirmish, but the Garda would have to take your word for it.
It would be the same if i had a crowbar in my car and was stoped. I might be on my way to work, but the Garda might see it as "going equiped".
That is were the problem lies.

gerrowadat

MagicIRL wrote: »

If its all so fine, does that mean I can go through town, with my AEG in a carrycase/bag - be stopped and searched, and not loose my AEG?

Thats what I want to know, I want as little risk as possible when moving my AEGs around. I asked for IAA clearance on the topic, because they, compared to the many keyboard warriros that reside here, would know exactly how transport should take place.

Im regretting even asking for clarifaction now.

[dislcaimer, I'm not on the IAA, but was chairperson last year).

You shouldn't have a problem. You're entitled to own and transport the RIF, once you have a reason to have it on you (i.e. going skirmishing, going to get it repaired etc.)

The reason why you might not get a straight answer is that Gardaí in Ireland work from a secret rulebook (and that's not a turn of phrase, a secret Garda rulebook actually exists) and the IAA weren't told what's in it with regard to finding RIF during stop and search.

That, and Garda authority for most stuff stops at the district superintendent, so if a guard decides your gun is illegal, the super will back him up and there's not a lot you can do without going to court.

Welcome to Ireland. Sure why can't you play a normal game like GAA bai.

MagicIRL

swiftblade wrote: »

You have to remember it's up to the individual Garda that stops you. Sure, you are perfectly intitled to carry it (once concealed) when on your way to a skirmish, but the Garda would have to take your word for it.
It would be the same if i had a crowbar in my car and was stoped. I might be on my way to work, but the Garda might see it as "going equiped".
That is were the problem lies.

I understand that, that is why I wanted IAA advice on the topic. Only apparently, that, according to other users within this topic, is not needed. Common Sense should do it alone, but I guess you've just clearly stated how its individually based and some form of "official" guidelines would be nice.

se conman

To get official IAA clarification , you will need to ask the question on the IAA website.

CaptainPrice

gerrowadat wrote: »

[dislcaimer, I'm not on the IAA, but was chairperson last year).

You shouldn't have a problem. You're entitled to own and transport the RIF, once you have a reason to have it on you (i.e. going skirmishing, going to get it repaired etc.)

The reason why you might not get a straight answer is that Gardaí in Ireland work from a secret rulebook (and that's not a turn of phrase, a secret Garda rulebook actually exists) and the IAA weren't told what's in it with regard to finding RIF during stop and search.

That, and Garda authority for most stuff stops at the district superintendent, so if a guard decides your gun is illegal, the super will back him up and there's not a lot you can do without going to court.

Welcome to Ireland. Sure why can't you play a normal game like GAA bai.

So the official verdict is inconclusive then? There is nothing we can do to continue on our way to a game if a nosy guard wants to see out guitar or gym bag contents and completely overreacts?
You see, this is why I love Ireland.......

not only is weather stopping me from going to play, Im now at risk of loosing my airsoft gun which i put a lot of time, effort and money into getting it the way I want. thats just fantastic. Can i wear my ghillie suit to court so?

So the conclusion Im taking from this is to take the car to a game. And have an adult drive. Job done.

NakedDex

MagicIRL wrote: »

If its all so fine, does that mean I can go through town, with my AEG in a carrycase/bag - be stopped and searched, and not loose my AEG?

Thats what I want to know, I want as little risk as possible when moving my AEGs around. I asked for IAA clearance on the topic, because they, compared to the many keyboard warriros that reside here, would know exactly how transport should take place.

Im regretting even asking for clarifaction now.

What you're looking for is clarifcation, not clearance. There's a distinct difference in that asking the IAA for clearance implies that the IAA can grant you some sort of official permission to transport an AEG through a public place.
You asked, originally, the "keyboard warriors" of this forum for clarification on how to transport RIF's through public places, safely and legally, on the way to The Office Block. The information you were given, by several people here, was to not use a box or a plastic bag, only a proper case. Not only for safe transport, but also because the site in question will only allow you into the site if you transport you RIF by these means.

This information is all truthful. If you don't want to listen to or believe it, that's up to you.



As for this sudden buzzword of "concealment" being bandied around, putting a rifle in a case is not concealment any more than putting a laptop in a case it. Carrying a RIF in a case designed specifically for doing so is not concealment. That's transport.

Puding

CaptainPrice wrote: »

So the official verdict is inconclusive then? There is nothing we can do to continue on our way to a game if a nosy guard wants to see out guitar or gym bag contents and completely overreacts?
You see, this is why I love Ireland.......

not only is weather stopping me from going to play, Im now at risk of loosing my airsoft gun which i put a lot of time, effort and money into getting it the way I want. thats just fantastic. Can i wear my ghillie suit to court so?

So the conclusion Im taking from this is to take the car to a game. And have an adult drive. Job done.

got nothing to do with Ireland, its the same across the board really, but you have to look at it from authority point of view

a lot of it comes down to intent and how the garda view this

you can not brandish/show a rif in public without breaking the law, so we have to travel with the packed out of site ( i deliberately will not use the word conceal as we are transporting something out of site to comply with law rather than hiding something )

know this is where intent comes in if im carrying a pistol in a gym bag it could be because im going to a site or it could be im about to go an use it in a crime, it is hard for any garda to on the spot to make call on this as if they let you on your way with the rif it is on there head if anything happens after

this is where we ned to be sensible by transporting our rifs ina sensible manor packed individually is cases designed for the purpose creates a completely different image to someone who has thrown then in a bin bag/gym bag/guitar bag etc etc

edit : to slow dex beat me to it

gerrowadat

CaptainPrice wrote: »

So the official verdict is inconclusive then? There is nothing we can do to continue on our way to a game if a nosy guard wants to see out guitar or gym bag contents and completely overreacts?
You see, this is why I love Ireland.......

not only is weather stopping me from going to play, Im now at risk of loosing my airsoft gun which i put a lot of time, effort and money into getting it the way I want. thats just fantastic. Can i wear my ghillie suit to court so?

So the conclusion Im taking from this is to take the car to a game. And have an adult drive. Job done.

Advice if this happens (from me, not the IAA):

If a Garda asks you what is in your bag, ask them why they want to know.

They can search you without a warrant, but they need to tell you under what criminal justice act they're searching you (i.e. drugs, firearms, etc.). You have a right to know what crime you're suspected of.

You should tell them straight up what you have before opening anything, so it's not a surprise to you and you can do it in private if necessary (in the case of a RIF, it would be).

If all else fails, and the guard is on their own and on foot, walk away. The guard isn't allowed to physically restrain you unless they suspect you of a crime. If they do, then ask them what crime. If they ask you for your name or address, it means they're using a statutory power because they suspect you of a crime. At that time ask respectfully "What crime am I under suspicion of committing". Of course, this is where the Gardaí's favourite phrase 'reasonable suspicion' comes into play.

Basically, guards are people too, not robocop. You don't have to do as they say, and they have to explain themselves to you before arresting you (which they really don't want to have to do if they can avoid it).

CaptainPrice

My friends dad is robocop....

Damo 2k9

Tbh if a garda asked you whats in the bag and you say why do you want to know then there going to think your hiding something and then start becoming more smarter with you, making things harder for yourself when you really arent in the position to do so.

If a garda asked me what was in the bag id explain where im going and whats in the bag and tell them its under the limit etc etc rather than just giving them a smart answer.

Puding

If all else fails, and the guard is on their own and on foot, walk away. The guard isn't allowed to physically restrain you unless they suspect you of a crime. If they do, then ask them what crime. If they ask you for your name or address, it means they're using a statutory power because they suspect you of a crime. At that time ask respectfully "What crime am I under suspicion of committing". Of course, this is where the Gardaí's favourite phrase 'reasonable suspicion' comes into play.

Basically, guards are people too, not robocop. You don't have to do as they say, and they have to explain themselves to you before arresting you (which they really don't want to have to do if they can avoid it).

i agree with you apart from this bit, personally i think its very dangerous to suggest what could be described as civil disobedience in a way, what your suggesting you might as well just stick a sign above your head and say 'take an interest im a suspicious suspect' if your transporting your rifs correctly and there under a joule just be honest you will be surprised how much authority do know about airsoft ( even if they do play stupid some of the time)

just my 2 cents

MagicIRL

NakedDex wrote: »

What you're looking for is clarifcation, not clearance. There's a distinct difference in that asking the IAA for clearance implies that the IAA can grant you some sort of official permission to transport an AEG through a public place.
You asked, originally, the "keyboard warriors" of this forum for clarification on how to transport RIF's through public places, safely and legally, on the way to The Office Block. The information you were given, by several people here, was to not use a box or a plastic bag, only a proper case. Not only for safe transport, but also because the site in question will only allow you into the site if you transport you RIF by these means.

This information is all truthful. If you don't want to listen to or believe it, that's up to you.



As for this sudden buzzword of "concealment" being bandied around, putting a rifle in a case is not concealment any more than putting a laptop in a case it. Carrying a RIF in a case designed specifically for doing so is not concealment. That's transport.

Careful, you're confusing me with the OP. So I want IAA clarification but used the wrong word. My apologies.

gerrowadat

Puding wrote: »

i agree with you apart from this bit, personally i think its very dangerous to suggest what could be described as civil disobedience in a way, what your suggesting you might as well just stick a sign above your head and say 'take an interest im a suspicious suspect' if your transporting your rifs correctly and there under a joule just be honest you will be surprised how much authority do know about airsoft ( even if they do play stupid some of the time)

just my 2 cents

Yeah, this applies more in general, with carrying a RIF being a mitigating factor. I've been asked my name and address by a guard twice now for just being in the wrong place. One guard, after I asked "Am I being detained?" just said "Ah, **** off" and stormed off. Lolz.

NakedDex

MagicIRL wrote: »

Careful, you're confusing me with the OP. So I want IAA clarification but used the wrong word. My apologies.

MagicIRL wrote: »

I can use any public transport/walk through any town with my AEG aslong as the AEG is in a carrybag/hardcase (i.e. Guitar Bag [Although, is that not attemmting to conceal an RIF?]) and the magazines/batteries/bbs and other equipment is kept in a sports bag and out of sight.

I would still like some IAA clarification of how to transport these things around, I'll most likely e-mail them about it in a few, but it all seems rather "chancing-your-arm" at this stage. Everyone seems to be sayings X, Y and Z in regards to how they transport aegs, not how you legally should, and thus Im confused.

Right there.
Disregarding the words "on the way to The Office Block", everything else in that synopsis of best practice is pertinent to your question.
However, I will attempt to further clarify it for you.

Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 wrote:

Section 9A makes it an offence for a person, without
lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to possess a realistic imitation
firearm in a public place and sets penalties for such an offence. A
‘‘realistic imitation firearm’’ is defined as a device that appears to
the ordinary observer so realistic as to make it indistinguishable from
a firearm.

In other words, put it in a bloody case and don't wander around town with it for no reason.

silverhare

A guard once stopped me on the Ossory road in East wall while I was on my way to the office. I use a guitar case to transport my equipment. His first question was 'what's in the case? It looks very heavy'. At this point I could have chanced my arm with "There's an FX unit in there with the electric guitar, sure that's a lot heavier than the auld banjo" or (I did this one kids), look at him with a puzzled expression on my face before registering what he was asking about and saying "I'm headed out to the office in Tallaght to play airsoft for the day. My equipment is in the bag so I'd rather not open it in public, which station are you working from?" He seemed somewhat insulted that I'd asked him a question and asked me to open the bag. I asked if he was familiar with airsoft, he said no so I asked him why he wanted me to commit an offence by brandishing an object which could easily be misconstrued as a firearm in public and offered to walk to the station with him and show him the contents of the bag there. I guess that confused him because he told me to feic off and off I feiced.

The chances are that if you're stopped in town you'll be within a 10 minute walk of the nearest police station (particularly if you're en route to an airsoft site) and if you're over on Talbot street you can point at some of the shop windows and say 'toys like those ones'. When dealing with the gardaí, answer their questions and maybe even offer to head down to the station with them so that they can inspect your equipment. Pack mags, batteries, bbs and propellants separate to the RIFs. If they don't like your tone and ask if you're getting smart try not to respond with 'I was born smart, I'm being facetious', they don't like that and you may end up having all of your 'equipment' inspected by the rubber gloved hands of the law.

The less suspicious you look, the less likely you are to be stopped. Pack your gear properly and forget about it until you're at the site. Like the naked guy above me (eep!!) said, don't bring it with you without a good reason (ie, to/from a site or a shop).