Total Beginner

Smcgie

Hello all, I'll make this short and sweet

I want to start shooting, I plan to apply for a licence soon and eventually buy a gun. I'm a total novice and have no shooting experience whatsoever.

My question to you guys is what advice can you give a beginner, what gun should I buy first (I should point out I wish to get a rifle as a shotgun doesn't appeal to me) what prices should I pay for a beginner.

How much is ammunition, rules, regulations, safety cources, storage anything that helps.


Appreciate all replies
S

Cass

Smcgie wrote: »

........what gun should I buy first (I should point out I wish to get a rifle as a shotgun doesn't appeal to me) what prices should I pay for a beginner.

A starter rifle for a complete novice would be a .22 caliber.



The above is a CZ (make) Hunting rifle. They cost €400-ish brand new. Add to that mounts (thats what holds the scope into the rifle), and the scope and you are looking at an additional €300-ish. Then gun safe, bipod (legs for the front of rifle), gun slip, are all other items you will need and these should cost no more than €250 max.

This is an Anschutz Benchrest (competition) rifle

They can run from €1500 to €7000 depending on the features and accessories.

This is an Anschutz rifle used in conjunction with PR60 and 3P shooting.

How much is ammunition,

Can run anywhere from €4.50 per box of 50 bullets to €15+ for the top of the line target ammo. This will depend on the type of shooting you want to do. Is it hunting (€7.50 per box of 50 for decent quality hunting ammo) or target (€10 - €15 per box of 50 for Eley Tenex, RWS, Lapua and other target ammo)

Just to inform you that hunting ammo can be used as target and vice versa, but some ammo is specific in its nature. As in why pay €11 for a box of 50 bullets to shot at rabbits. The €7 box will e as good and hit just as well.

rules,

Rules are really applicable to target shooting. There is sporting, benchrest, PR60, 3P, etc, etc. In other words alot of disciplines. U~nfortunatley it would take a lifetime to list and explain them all. Try a search for .22 shooting disciplines and see which suits you the best. Then come back and ask specifics about that type of shooting.

regulations,

As above for the individual disciplines, but regulations for firearms ownership can be found here.

safety cources

,

Many organisations run safety courses so it really depends on your location. This will determine the best and easiest to reach course. Two come to mind. The NARGC, and the MNSCI (Midlands rifle range). The MNSCI range offers IFA insurance with the course. These events are held every month or two and run between €30 - €50 depending on event and organisation running it.

storage

You will under law need a gun safe as a minimum standard of security. A gun slip or hard case for transporting the firearm and also for moving it while on a range as no range allows members to carry a firearm around without a carry case. Its a safety issue.

anything that helps.

The only bit of info i can give is two fold. If you plan on hunting mostly then you need two permission letters from land owners allowing you to shoot on their lands. Alternatively amemership of a game club will suffice. The other way is to join an authorised range as membership will siffice for your "good reason" for wanting the firearm. Memberships can cost anything from €285 - €800 per annum depending again on location and the range. Also note some/most ranges have a registration fee applicable to the first years membership only. This can cost up to €300.


I think that covers evrything. Anything else feel free to ask.

clivej

The gun shop in Drangan Co. Tipp has a good offer on the CZ 22lr style or silhouette model. To include rifle, mounts, adequate scope, and SAK moderator all for a great price of €475 (or perhaps less) I think Paul said.

052 52112 (but now with extra numbers in the code)

session savage

clivej wrote: »

The gun shop in Drangan Co. Tipp has a good offer on the CZ 22lr style or silhouette model. To include rifle, mounts, adequate scope, and SAK moderator all for a great price of €475 (or perhaps less) I think Paul said.

052 52112 (but now with extra numbers in the code)

Yeah stick in a 91 in front of the 52112 and ask for Paul.

FISMA

Hi Smcgie,
Welcome and be forewarned, this is a highly addictive sport.

If you have absolutely no experience at all, that's fine. I do better teaching total newbies the ropes than people with just enough experience to have bad, hard to break habits.

I would suggest a 22LR. The ammo is cheap and you can put a few thousand rounds downrage without breaking into the confirmation money under the pillow!:)

Anyhow, learn good practices, read up, study a bit of ballistics, get out there and have some fun.

I would suggest a Ruger 10/22 or a CZ bolt action, both fine guns. Check the prices.

What are your future plans? Would you like to hunt? Compete? General fun and merriment?

Perhaps, a bolt action would be best to start with if you plan on hunting. From the beginning, hunters need to learn to rack the bolt and get a new round into the chamber ASAP.

Also, 22LR's aren't the most powerful round and can be finicky in automatics. Not sure if the 10/22 is restricted, been a while since I got the license, but it is fun.

PLEASE DO NOT GET A SCOPE!!! This is a big no - no. Learn to shoot iron sights first. The level of confusion that the scope brings into shooting is something that a newby need not deal with.

Keep it simple to start: gun, ammo, eye/ear protection, license, and a place to shoot. You'll find that things get more complicated later on (boresighters, rangefinders, ...), and later on still, they start to get simple - back to the basics.

Tips:
(1) Never point a firearm at anything you do not intended to kill and/or destroy.

(2) When you pick up, give, or receive a firearm from someone, always ensure the action is open, that the chamber is clear, and has been checked. If the person handing you a firearm has not opened and cleared the action, ask them to do so.

(3) Know your target and beyond.

(4) Safety on until you have acquired the target.

(5) Keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to shoot!

Slan

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

Also, 22LR's aren't the most powerful round and can be finicky in automatics. Not sure if the 10/22 is restricted, been a while since I got the license, but it is fun.

Only restricted if the magazine capacity exceeds 10 rounds in a rimfire.

PLEASE DO NOT GET A SCOPE!!! This is a big no - no. Learn to shoot iron sights first. The level of confusion that the scope brings into shooting is something that a newby need not deal with.

Sorry, but that is not good advice. If your personal preference is to shoot without a scope fine, but to tell a new comer to shooting that its a "no-no" to get a scope as though he is making a mistake is plain wrong.

I started shooting 20+ years ago with iron sights, not as an option but as a necessity. Nowadays i much prefer a scope and have no time for iron/open sights. For a newcomer a scope is the BEST option. Once the rifle is zeroed for 50-70yds what they see in the scope is what they hit. Iron sights leave too much "miss" room for someone with no experience.

Also if they user wishes to do target work what do you suggest. They mount the scope, then remove it again each time they are finished?

I honestly couldn't disagree any stronger with that statement.

Keep it simple to start: gun, ammo, eye/ear protection, license, and a place to shoot. You'll find that things get more complicated later on (boresighters, rangefinders, ...), and later on still, they start to get simple - back to the basics.

That again is over complicating a simple matter. A scope allows for greater accuracy than open/iron sights. Fact. Also the statement that he will need boresighters, rangefinders, etc. Maybe in years to come when he progresses to a fullbore, but i have had numerous rifles over the years and never once had the need to buy a boresighter. Learning to sight a rifle in by using the bore then scope method is the simplest and easiest.

A rangfinder, for a .22lr. Really. If he intends to shoot over 120yds with .22lr from the off then he shouldn't be. A .22lr is too slow and easily affected by wind and other conditions to make it an accurate caliber at longer distances. The amount of adjustment needed is huge. Even from 50 to 100 yards requires a 5-6" variance adjustment. After 100 yards this amount increases and past 200 yards is silly. At 400 yards with a 50yard zero you are looking ata holdover/POA 35+ ft over the target. Even if you do hit your target chances are unless its a small animal or paper you will not have the necessary impact energy for a clean kill, and hunting is more than just htting the target. You have an obligation to the animal to give a clean/humane kill.

At the end its the OPs decision, but if a new comer asked me i can only say this. To use iron sights (while a simple function to us) requires knowledge of lining up front and back sight and aligning the sights squarely and then doing all this is a "snap shot" if hunting. For target work, i rarely see it. To such an extent that i have not seen a competition with iron sights for a .22 in years. A scope is much easier to learn from. Once zeroed what the crosshairs are on the shooter hits. If at a later date he wishes to use iron sights then he can remove the scope, but by then he will have a knowledge of handling and shooting that would allow him safely and adequately use the iron sights.



Rebutal?

Tackleberrywho

Smcgie wrote: »

Hello all, I'll make this short and sweet

I want to start shooting, I plan to apply for a licence soon and eventually buy a gun. I'm a total novice and have no shooting experience whatsoever.

My question to you guys is what advice can you give a beginner, what gun should I buy first (I should point out I wish to get a rifle as a shotgun doesn't appeal to me) what prices should I pay for a beginner.

How much is ammunition, rules, regulations, safety cources, storage anything that helps.


Appreciate all replies
S

As a beginner who wants to shoot bunnies .22lr
Target .22lr

Bunnies either a bolt action or a semi-auto (reloads a fresh round after ever squeeze of the trigger not as accrate as a bolt action**)
Advantages of a semi auto on rabbits is you get a very quick follow up shot if there are two or more rabbits, however as some of the gas of the round is used to blow back the bolt to the rear to eject the spent round and insert a fresh round; you lose a fraction of the rounds power and accuracy.

Most accurate cheap semi you could get is a ruger 10/22 with a heavy barrel**

If Bolt action appeals more to you; there are a serious amount of them on the market.
CZ,Sako,Remington, Anschutz, Ruger just to name a few.

The cheapest starter .22lr is a CZ or maybe a remington.

As a beginner I would recomend a fairly simple scope.
Simmons are very good value and quality for their price

http://www.simmonsoptics.com/riflescopes/aetec.cfm
4-14magnification is quite useful on rabbits

If you wish to shoot paper targets on an authorised range you would be better off with a higher mag scope. Some use a fixed 40mag scope or 36 for example

So What type of shooting do you mostly want to do?

As a good all rounder an anschutz 1710 second hand is a great starter rifle


In my opinion, it is possibly the most accurate hunting rifle there is in .22lr

Sparks

Possibly the best advice for a total beginner might be to find out what their local club or range is, and then go there and see what it's like before buying their first rifle.

I mean, if your local range was WTSC, buying a .22lr wouldn't do you much good because you can't use it on the range!

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Possibly the best advice for a total beginner might be to find out what their local club or range is, and then go there and see what it's like before buying their first rifle.

I mean, if your local range was WTSC, buying a .22lr wouldn't do you much good because you can't use it on the range!

Well Sparks, we need to know does the OP want to Hunt or shoot target first.
he did say he wanted a Rifle over a shotgun, but never mentioned what he wanted it for.....

Sparks

When new shooters are asking about the rules and regulations tack, and post in here rather than in hunting, we generally assume they're more interested in learning to shoot; and a range is a better place to do that than in the field. So the best advice is to find out who your local club is, and go to them first, before buying. The club may have club kit for beginners to use while learning, for a start.

FISMA

To the OP, Ez gives excellent advice and probably one of the best sources of good information on the board. However, we're divergent here.

There's no correct answer here, rather opinions based upon what myself and Ez have gleaned from your posting.

I believe first in learning the fundamentals of good shooting from a minimalist standpoint: gun, ammo, target.

I believe that you should learn without any advantages, such as a scope, and then later, when your talent warrants it, take advantage of the scope.

I believe that when you forgo a scope in the beginning, you gain fundamental advantages that are honed even more with the addition of a scope later on.

You are only a new shooter once and for a very short time. Use that time wisely.

Ez is correct. Technology, such as scopes can help. The problem is when the technology masks, hides, or prevents the new shooter from understanding or becoming aware of fundamental problems.

A lot of problems new shooters have are solely due to their own bad practices, but some blame the scope. With that said, a lot of problems they have are solely due to an incorrectly setup scope or one that loses zero and they blame themselves. Eliminate the scope for a time and the source of that possible problem goes away.

I believe that the less you have to adjust and fiddle with, the better. Forget the scope right now and consider things not in your control: wind, slope, temperature, weather...

There's so much for you to learn right now: breathing in, exhaling, trigger pull, concentration, awareness, and of course safety. There's plenty of time to learn about scopes later.

If you give us a bit more, maybe we can help. Until then, I will stand by my original advice, re-iterate, and elaborate for any new shooter in general with a budget. Keep it simple.

Buy as much gun as you can. Learn to shoot it - that's your sport - shooting, get a scope later.

New shooters should be encouraged to minimize the maximum number of variables that can cause inaccuracy of shot or shot variance.

I believe a new shooter should get as natural a feel for the ballistics of their round and rifle as possible.

Smcgie, have a look at Ez's other posts when it comes to his responses on scope mounting and accuracy issues. They are very well thought out and should give you an indication of the level of abstraction to which I refer.

I recommend to new shooters accuracy first and then precision. You should be accurate enough yourself - on iron sights. I believe this is just a fundamental, a foundation for any good shooter.

Accuracy vs precision

deeksofdoom

Smcgie wrote: »

Hello all, I'll make this short and sweet

I want to start shooting, I plan to apply for a licence soon and eventually buy a gun. I'm a total novice and have no shooting experience whatsoever.

My question to you guys is what advice can you give a beginner, what gun should I buy first (I should point out I wish to get a rifle as a shotgun doesn't appeal to me) what prices should I pay for a beginner.

How much is ammunition, rules, regulations, safety cources, storage anything that helps.


Appreciate all replies
S

Just reading the thread and see that the target shooting boys are trying to claim you straight away because you are interested in getting a rifle.

Few questions,

Why are you going for a rifle rather than a shotgun?
Do you know anyone who has a gun that could show you the ropes?
Are you near one of these rifle shooting clubs?
Are you interested in learning about the countryside?
Do you like dogs?:)
Is there a gun club in your area?

Thing is in our gun club we get a lot of young lads who join because they want to licence a rifle. Being primarily a game shooting club, rifle shooting isn't really catered for, because most fellahs are using shotguns for duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe, pigeon etc, etc.. It so happens that the new rifle shooter gets left out. Now if he were to have a shotgun he would have a better chance of integrating, provided he ticked all the boxes, he would get invited out for a shot, see the dogs work, help around the club..... thats how you get into game shooting.

Best advice I could give you is have a good read around the boards here and the internet in general before you make any decision.

deeksofdoom

Sparks wrote: »

Possibly the best advice for a total beginner might be to find out what their local club or range is, and then go there and see what it's like before buying their first rifle.

I mean, if your local range was WTSC, buying a .22lr wouldn't do you much good because you can't use it on the range!

I think ye're all being a bit to quick of the mark making assumptions on what kind of shooting Smcgie wants to get into, He has already said that he is 'a total novice and have no shooting experience whatsoever'.

Smcgie

Sorry to rain on anyones parade seemly there is a rift between target men and the hunters (I learn quick)

I really appreciate the replies, I really intend to buy the rifle for hunting, as someone mentioned bunnies, small birds (I hate magpies)

So hunting is where I want to focus my intention but I'm not ruling out targets either. Also I find the SCOPE/IRONSIGHT debate interesting.

You're a helpfull bunch

Smcgie

Another quick question, some shooters tell me that the boys in blue are not too keen on a rifle as a first firearm licence and they would rather see you with a shotgun (O&U)

Is this hearsay or is there a certain persuasion I can use on the licence form.

Ta
S

Smcgie

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Few questions,

Why are you going for a rifle rather than a shotgun?I would prefer a distance shooting rather than (forgive me if I am wrong) an ignorant blow of a shotgun

Do you know anyone who has a gun that could show you the ropes? yes
Are you near one of these rifle shooting clubs? Have to find out

Are you interested in learning about the countryside?Im a culchie

Do you like dogs?:) don't appeal to me ATM but Im very easily persuaded

Is there a gun club in your area? again I have to find out

Here's a few answers in Bold

clivej

Smcgie wrote: »

Another quick question, some shooters tell me that the boys in blue are not too keen on a rifle as a first firearm licence and they would rather see you with a shotgun (O&U)

Is this hearsay or is there a certain persuasion I can use on the licence form.

Ta
S

NOT true but may depend on where you live :mad:

My first licenses were for a 22lr AND at the same time a 5+1 pump action shot gun 5+2 if you use a ghost cartridge;)

My sons first license was for a 223 rifle

Also you live in the "back of beyond" not helpfull if your looking for someone to bring you out shooting with them.

Tackleberrywho

Smcgie wrote: »

Sorry to rain on anyones parade seemly there is a rift between target men and the hunters (I learn quick)

I really appreciate the replies, I really intend to buy the rifle for hunting, as someone mentioned bunnies, small birds (I hate magpies)

So hunting is where I want to focus my intention but I'm not ruling out targets either. Also I find the SCOPE/IRONSIGHT debate interesting.

You're a helpfull bunch

If you don't have brilliant eye sight you will find open/iron sights frustrating.
On a cheap rifle it is generally a blade type fore sight and a V-Notched rear sight.
More for pint and shoot hunting than precision.
My personal opinion would be to use a scope.

A .22lr is a fine starter rifle.
I used to "zero" mine @ 50 yards with high Velocity ammo and the bullet would be ~ hitting 4" low @100yards
A .22lr Travels in a curve (all rounds do too); but the curve slopes away fast as the small low powered round slows down fast.

I "if" I was Plinking again think this could be fun!
http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_25&products_id=191&zenid=321718cbbf250cba4c5f81898742381b

Not sure what your budget is, but a second hand one might be more affordable.

or
http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_25&products_id=22

Or if you want a bolt action
http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_25&products_id=155

Or
http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_25&products_id=97


Point to note, I only use Shoot.ie as prices are posted as a general guide price.

Always haggle when trying to purchase a rifle.
Ask for the price with a Guncabinet included as you will need one anyway.
I would also recommend a 9-13" Harris Bipod with swivel.
http://www.shoot.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_17_19&products_id=15

Rifle new or second hand ~ €3-400
Cabinet 2 gun** ~€100
Bipod ~ €120 new**
Scope €80-120 will get you started, Simmons or similar

Licence €80
~€700 you want to budget as your lowest entry price all in!

bunny shooter

If you can get a rifle with both "open" sights and a scope rail I would like a standard CZ 452 in .22lr.

"Open" sights are seriously under rated IMVHO.

I learned to shoot with "open" sights as at the time scope were so expensive it was the only option and in later years I progressed onto scopes.

I know lots of rifle shooters who never used "open" sights which is a shame IMVHO.

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

There's no correct answer here, rather opinions based upon what myself and Ez have gleaned from your posting.

Agreed.

I believe first in learning the fundamentals of good shooting from a minimalist standpoint: gun, ammo, target.

A good point however that is based on common sense and good shooting practises. No offence to the OP or anyone else starting out, but i rememver when i got my first rifle. I didn't care about fundamentals, etc all i wanted was a box if bullets and left alone for a few hours. Some learning will not be taught merely picked up over time and mistakes (hopfully non too serious).

I believe that you should learn without any advantages, such as a scope, and then later, when your talent warrants it, take advantage of the scope.

I believe that when you forgo a scope in the beginning, you gain fundamental advantages that are honed even more with the addition of a scope later on.

Again ths is where we differ. I believe for someone of no experience they should have every advantage such as a scope, and learn other practices as time goes.At least that way when shooting (which they will do while learning) they will hit what they aim at or at least no be too much out.

I believe that the less you have to adjust and fiddle with, the better. Forget the scope right now and consider things not in your control: wind, slope, temperature, weather...

These are conditions, nothing to do with scope. If you use iron sights you still have to take into account wind, twmp, slope, etc.

There's so much for you to learn right now: breathing in, exhaling, trigger pull, concentration, awareness, and of course safety. There's plenty of time to learn about scopes later.

Again all this must be learned with a scope.

New shooters should be encouraged to minimize the maximum number of variables that can

cause inaccuracy

of shot or shot variance.

A scope is inherently mre accurate than iron sights. Forget personal ability you give someone two rifles, same make, model, caliber, etc. One with scope the other without. The scoped rifle will outshot the iron sighted one.

I believe a new shooter should get as natural a feel for the ballistics of their round and rifle as possible.

You will geta a better idea of ballistics when you have scope as it will allow for smaller adjustments than iron sights plus with a scope its a fixed aimimg device (the crosshairs) whereas if you breath wrong or align the front and back sights slightly incorrectly the shot is off and the futher the distance the further the miss.

You should be accurate enough yourself - on iron sights.

With a scope you have accuracy, with precision, regardless of how small it may be considered.


At the end of the day you will not change my mind no more than i will change yours. The OP will just have to consider which style suits him best or he prefers or there is the small compromise of these;

Tackleberrywho

When I started out, I used to be given the odd rounds left over by other shooters.

I remember firing hundreds of rounds with the grouping of a shotgun as they were all different, American eagle,Winchester,Remington,CCI, Lapua,eley etc.

I do have to say the best place to learn is on a paper target, as you can see where you are going wrong.

A scope "in my opinion" helps.
The higher mag the scope the easier it is to see your strikes @50 or 100tyards.
If you can see where you are going wrong you can adjust.
If you can't see "iron sights" you are just randomly aiming.
Without a spotter (a guy with Bino's or a scope; to tell you where you are hitting at 100 with iron sights.........

I am long sighted myself so I would always go for Scoped rifles.
I do know several who are exceptional with Iron sigts, but they are the exception not the rule.

Bananaman

I think that it is in every shooters interests to try as many sight types and actions a they can - not only from a curiosity perspective - but from a safety perspective (knowing how to clear the guns) and an experience perspective - e.g. Knowing how to shoot iron sights and adjust them

I would equate it to someone learning to drive automatic and the not being able to drive a stick which limits their options

there are bolt action, pump action, lever action, martini action, etc.

single shot, changeable magazines, fixed pipe magazine. - both muzzle or stock loaded, semi automatic, etc

can be a good idea to go to a target club so you can try out some shooting and learn some basic safety - even if you only plan to hunt

you need to know what you are doing if you plan to shoot magpies with a rifle - making sure they have a backstop behind them - no hedge or tree shots, etc.

Loads of people will recommend different rifles to you - I have a real liking for the browning buckmark - but you should visit a few shops and see what is on offer, what the prices look like etc

B'Man