WikiLeaks & Sinn Fein

Lonesome Boatman

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Lonesome, can you please provide proof of the British Army murdering children? I am genuinely curious as to what they have done. I would make this proviso: if a child/civilian is killed in a manner that is totally unforseeable (for example, a ricochet, or a civilian being in the middle of an army patrol) then I would not call that muder.

For me, murder would be when you do something that deliberately puts civilians at risk of their lives.

There is a grey area where - say - a high value target like Bin Laden is in a village somewhere with civilians around him and you can attack him with a missile from a drone, knowing that there would be civilian casualties. Some people would say that is acceptable (the American government, probably). I would say that it is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayXcfps1MUA

Bottle_of_Smoke

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

Would you hold him in contempt for it? Or think it was just unlucky.

I'd certainly hold the ones who ordered the attack in contempt. I don't think the potential marginalisation of some loyalist paramilitary leaders could ever outweigh the massive risk to civillian life taken in carrying out the operation in the way they did.

The actual individuals it is a bit more complicated. They should have refused to carry it out but it is possible they didn't expect anyone in the shop to be killed or were ordered to do it at the last minute. We don't know the exact details obviously

KeithAFC

their was a huge difference in the actions of the IRA and the likes of UVF , UFF LVF whose actions were purely sectarian in nature,

Nonsense. Do you get your republican education by Sinn Fein or something? Something seriously has went wrong if you have that opinion.

The IRA commited a lot of secterian murders during the troubles of Protestant people. Hince why a lot of Protestants joined the Ulster Volunteer Force.

danbohan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

U

Where in the middle east?

probably he means Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan maybe , all places you brits were involved in and left a history of bloodshed and mayhem behind you , funny you would not know where it is or do they deliberate exclude that inglorious part of murder and of course defeat from your history books

danbohan

KeithAFC wrote: »

Nonsense. Do you get your republican education by Sinn Fein or something? Something seriously has went wrong if you have that opinion.

The IRA commited a lot of secterian murders during the troubles of Protestant people. Hince why a lot of Protestants joined the Ulster Volunteer Force.

poor protestants only trying to defend their homeland , why did the IRA come into existence in 1969/70 in first place keith ?

Fratton Fred

danbohan wrote: »

probably he means Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan maybe , all places you brits were involved in and left a history of bloodshed and mayhem behind you , funny you would not know where it is or do they deliberate exclude that inglorious part of murder and of course defeat from your history books

I know where in the middle east the British army has fought, I'm more curious as to where they used guerilla tactics.

junder

So republicans defence for being involved in extortion, racketeering, kidnapping , robbery, smuggling, murder is 'yer but the Brits and the loyalists' thats it

Lonesome Boatman

junder wrote: »

I wear metal poppy all year round and have no issue about the money helping wounded and disabled veterans since I am a British soldier. The thing that sepperates me from your heroes is that as an individual soldier I am now responsible for my own actions, there is no 'I was just following orders' defence or 'it's a war' if I commit a war crime I can be charged by my unit, my regiment, the army, the government and the Hague, provies on the other get to be in government. All armies within the un are accountable to the law of international armed conflict, within that law there are strict diffinitions if what constitutes a legitimate target, also within that law are the definitions if what constituted a army, paramilitary force or guerilla group and the ira falls into non of these definitions, it is by definition under the law of international armed conflict a terrorist organisation.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

The British army are trained killers, anyone who chooses to kill people for a living is not a 'hero'.

The poppy fund goes towards people who murdered innocent children.

KeithAFC

danbohan wrote: »

poor protestants only trying to defend their homeland , why did the IRA come into existence in 1969/70 in first place keith ?

Stop trying to deny that the PIRA didn't commit secterian murder when they did, on a lot of innocent Protestants. Its nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know where in the middle east the British army has fought, I'm more curious as to where they used guerilla tactics.

The drone attacks on Taliban strongholds are guerilla tactics. Not sure if they're only an American thing or British use them too.

Monty Burnz

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

Would you hold him in contempt for it? Or think it was just unlucky.

More unlucky for the murdered innocent people and their families than for the guys who planted the bomb, I would say.

Lonesome Boatman

Your army murdered these Irish children.


Rowntree, Francis - 22 April 1972 (11) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot by rubber bullet, Divis Flats, Belfast.

Geddis, Stephen - 30 August 1975 (10) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Died two days after being hit by plastic bullet, Divis Flats, Belfast.

Stewart, Brian - 10 October 1976 (13) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Died six days after being hit by plastic bullet near his home, Norglen Road, Turf Lodge, Belfast.

Whitters, Paul - 25 April 1981 (15) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died 10 days after being shot by plastic bullet, Great James Street, Derry.

Livingstone, Julie - 13 May 1981 (14) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot by plastic bullet while walking along Stewartstown Road, Suffolk, Belfast.

Kelly, Carol Anne - 22 May 1981 (12) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Died three days after being shot by plastic bullet while walking along Cherry Park, Twinbrook, Belfast.

McConomy, Stephen - 19 April 1982 (11) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Died three days after being shot by plastic bullet, Fahan Street, Bogside, Derry.

Duffy, Seamus - 09 August 1989 (15) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot by plastic bullet while walking along Dawson Street, New Lodge, Belfast.


More children died in the troubles under the age of 18 by real bullets as well.

09 Aug 1971 Leo McGuigan Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Shot while walking along Estoril Park Ardoyne Belfast

09 Aug 1971 Francis McGuinness Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during street disturbances Finaghy Road North Belfast

09 Aug 1971 Desmond Healey Aged 14 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during street disturbances Lenadoon Avenue Belfast

06 Sept 1971 Annette McGavigan Aged 14 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during street disturbances, while standing at the corner Blucher Street and Westland Street Derry

14 Dec 1971 Martin McShane Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Shot outside youth centre Macrory Park, Coalisland County Tyrone

18 Dec 1971 James McCallum Aged 16 Catholic killed by Ulster Volunteer Force Barman, killed in bomb attack on Murtagh's Bar Springfield Road Belfast

16 Jan 1972 Eamon McCormick Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Died over two months after being shot during gun battle, near St Peter's School Ballymurphy Belfast

30 Jan 1972 John Duddy Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street Bogside Derry

30 Jan 1972 Kevin McElhinney Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street Bogside Derry

30 Jan 1972 Hugh Gilmore Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street Bogside Derry

30 Jan 1972 John Young Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street Bogside Derry

30 Jan 1972 Michael Kelly Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street Bogside Derry

30 Jan 1972 Gerry Donaghy Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street Bogside Derry

01 Mar 1972 John Mahon Aged 16 Catholic killed by RUC Shot while travelling in stolen car in Belfast city centre. Car abandoned outside Royal Victoria Hospital Falls Road Belfast

01 Mar 1972 Michael Connors Aged 16 Catholic killed by RUC Shot while travelling in stolen car in Belfast city centre. Car abandoned outside Royal Victoria Hospital Falls Road Belfast

23 Mar 1972 Sean O'Riordan Aged 13 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during petrol bomb attack on British Army BA foot patrol Cawnpore Street, Falls Belfast

22 Apr 1972 Francis Rowntree Aged 11 Catholic killed by British Army Shot by rubber bullet Divis Flats Belfast

19 May 1972 Manus Deery Aged 15 Catholic killed by British Army Shot by sniper from BA observation post on city walls, while in entry off Westland St. Westland St. Derry

11 Jun 1972 Joseph Campbell Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Shot during gun battle Eskdale Gardens, Ardoyne Belfast

09 Jul 1972 Margaret Gargan Aged 13 Catholic killed by British Army Shot by sniper from British Army BA observation post in Corry's Timber Yard, while walking along Westrock Drive Ballymurphy Belfast


09 Jul 1972 John Dougal Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Shot by sniper from British Army BA observation post in Corry's Timber Yard, while walking along Westrock Drive Ballymurphy Belfast

09 Jul 1972 David McCafferty Aged 15 Catholic killed by British Army Shot by sniper from British Army BA observation post in Corry's Timber Yard, while walking along Westrock Drive Ballymurphy Belfast

11 Jul 1972 Gerard Gibson Aged 16/17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot while in house, Carrigart Avenue Suffolk Belfast


15 Jul 1972 John Mooney Aged 17 Catholic killed by British Army Shot while walking along Ligoniel Road Ligoniel Belfast

31 Jul 1972 Daniel Hegarty Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Operation Motorman Shot while walking along Creggan Heights Creggan Derry


07 Oct 1972 Alexander Moorehead Aged 16 Protestant killed by Ulster Defence Regiment Shot while walking along Mourne Park Newtownstewart County Tyrone

16 Oct 1972 William Warnock Aged Infant Protestant killed by British Army Knocked down by British Army BA Armoured Personnel Carrier, while at barricade during street disturbances Newtownards Road Belfast

04 Dec 1972 Bernard Fox Aged 16 Catholic killed by British Army Shot while in house, Ardoyne Brompton Park Belfast


There is another long list of children murdered by the RUC.

Do these children not matter to you Keith? You fund the people who murdered these children Keith. While in the same breath picking out IRA atrocities to point score, you don't care about the children Keith. Im sure im not the only one who finds this disgusting.

KeithAFC

Do these children not matter to you Keith? You fund the people who murdered these children Keith. While in the same breath picking out IRA atrocities to point score, you don't care about the children Keith. Im sure im not the only one who finds this disgusting.

The only one trying to point score is ignoring the IRA killing of Protestants and the denying of secterian IRA killings in this thread.

Lonesome Boatman

junder wrote: »

So republicans defence for being involved in extortion, racketeering, kidnapping , robbery, smuggling, murder is 'yer but the Brits and the loyalists' thats it

Whats your defence for being part of an army who has murdered so many children. You also fund the veterans who carried out murder in Ireland, Iraq, Afghan, and the Malvinas islands. You are a British soldier, what is your defence for being part of an army that conducted a campaign of terror against the nationalist community?

Lonesome Boatman

KeithAFC wrote: »

The only one trying to point score is ignoring the IRA killing of Protestants and the denying of secterian IRA killings in this thread.

Nonsense.

Not ignoring anything Keith, i have already acknowledged the IRA killed innocents. Show me the post where i have denied this.

In fact i have pointed out the IRA killed innocents a few times.

Interesting you bring religion into things, religion does not matter to me.

You cannot recognise the British army killed innocents and keep mentioning the IRA in response to innocent children murdered by the British army, whom you fund. Have you been conditioned to think this way?

You fund the British army, they killed innocent Irish children. You fund the pensions and medical care of the people who murdered these children.

How can you justify this?

KeithAFC

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

Nonsense.

Not ignoring anything Keith, i have already acknowledged the IRA killed innocents. Show me the post where i have denied this.

Interesting you bring religion into things, religion does not matter to me.

Its true. The vast majority of them were Protestants and the IRA killed them because they were Protestant and supported the Union.

Its all well and good posting what you did, i'd like the same now for the PIRA to even it out. Thanks.

Monty Burnz

danbohan wrote: »

4/ you have produced no evidence of this , their are people who would say fianna fail are involved in criminality as well

I did provide proof in the point that you just quoted - Bernard Dempsey and the other O'Snodaigh Sinn Fein party workers. You seem to have missed it somehow

GARDAI recovered a large quantity of Sinn Fein posters - including election posters for Sinn Fein TD Aengus O Snodaigh - from a car in which they also found a stun gun and CS gas canister, the trial of five men accused of IRA membership heard yesterday. The Special Criminal Court was shown the posters which read 'Sinn Fein No 1 Aengus O Snodaigh', and also the stun gun which was recovered by gardai from the boot of a Nissan Almera car in Bray in October, 2002.
Another poster found in the car said 'Sinn Fein says no to bin charges'.
Cable ties, car number plates, a blue flashing light similar to that used in emergency vehicles, and a roll of tape were also discovered.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-fein-poll-posters-found-in-ira-accuseds-car-court-told-272086.html

The same journey in Ireland began in the dying days of the Provisional IRA. Its members, particularly the Dublin-based brigade, moved from vigilantism against drug dealers to accepting bribes from particular drug gangs and then to carrying out assassinations of rivals to their dealers. Within a decade of Sinn Fein and the IRA leading marches of Concerned Parents Against Drugs to the homes of heroin dealers, the same people were heavily involved in the drug industry while still trading under the name of the Provisional IRA.
The Provos shot dead Joseph Foran, 38, a notorious gangster and heroin dealer, in Finglas in February 2000, not because of his involvement in the drug trade but because he refused to pay their extortion demands. Two months later, they shot dead Thomas Byrne, 41, an innocent man from the north inner city who had stood up to one of the senior Dublin IRA men who was heavily involved in hijacking goods containers from Dublin Docks.
In July 2001, the Dublin IRA shot dead Seamus 'Shavo' Hogan, 40, in south Dublin, passing the murder off as part of its campaign to rid Dublin of career criminals and drug traffickers. Hogan was, in fact, shot because he refused to pay protection and was involved in disputes with another southside drug gang that was paying money to the IRA.
Joseph Cummins, 48, another career criminal, was shot dead in Tallaght in December 2001 because he too refused to pay up.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dissidents-find-new-cause-in-drug-war-2343600.html

A Sinn Fein election agent and former IRA prisoner, Richard O'Donnell, 56, of Racecourse Road, Downpatrick, was sentenced to four and a half years, on Wednesday, after pleading guilty to the attempted blackmail of a local businessman. The court heard that the businessman was told that if he did not pay the local IRA he would be "put in a hole". He contacted the PSNI and O'Donnell was arrested as he tried to collect the demand.
Remarkably, Sinn Fein has supported the convicted criminal. Local party councillor, Eamonn Mac Con Midhe (formerly McConvey), said: "Dickie O'Donnell is a well-known and well-respected republican."

Only two weeks ago in Dublin, another Sinn Fein election worker, Bernard Dempsey, was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of a man from the Liberties, who had insulted him for accepting money from local drug dealers.
Dempsey, the one-time Provisional IRA boss in south-inner Dublin, was convicted last Friday week of murdering local man James Curran, 42, in the Green Lizard pub, in April last year. He was also the prime suspect in the attempted murder of a key witness in a manslaughter case against local republican vigilantes six years ago.
Dempsey was the key suspect for shooting Alan Byrne, a 23-year-old friend of Liberties heroin addict and HIV sufferer, Josie Dwyer, who was beaten to death by a republican mob in May 1996. All those involved with Sinn Fein supporters at the time, and a short time earlier, had attended a meeting addressed by Gerry Adams. Dempsey and his Sinn Fein associates held themselves out as being opposed to drug dealing criminals.
However, in recent years, Dempsey and his close associates had done deals to allow certain drug dealers to ply their trade in the Liberties and Coombe areas, in return for pay-offs.
According to local people James Curran was shot dead by Dempsey after "slagging him off" in a local pub just after Christmas, 2004.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/conviction-shows-sf-is-still-linked-to-ira-crime-despite-new-bid-for-power-131919.html

Please don't tell us again that 'there is no proof' when I keep posting proof. You will notice that I have left out the murder of Gerry McCabe (which happened while Sinn Fein/IRA criminals where robbing a Post Office) and the 'mysterious' Northern Bank robbery.

Lonesome Boatman

Monty Burnz wrote: »

More unlucky for the murdered innocent people and their families than for the guys who planted the bomb, I would say.

I would agree.

KeithAFC

If the PIRA was a legit army as it has been said on here, then why did that army murder young and old unionists? That is as bad as the British army.

Lonesome Boatman

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its true. The vast majority of them were Protestants and the IRA killed them because they were Protestant and supported the Union.

Its all well and good posting what you did, i'd like the same now for the PIRA to even it out. Thanks.

26 pages of IRA bashing not enough for you? I am trying to balance this thread.

The difference between me and you Keith, i do not support the PIRA.

You support the British army.

The British army murdered children, you fund the people who murder children by buying poppies.

KeithAFC

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

26 pages of IRA bashing not enough for you? I am trying to balance this thread.

The difference between me and you Keith, i do not support the PIRA.

You support the British army.

The British army murdered children, you fund the people who murder children by buying poppies.

No i don't. I support the members in the British Army now. Not the members who killed innocent people during the troubles.

Am i not in my right to buy a poppy and be proud to be British?

OhNoYouDidn't

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I did provide proof in the point that you just quoted - Bernard Dempsey and the other O'Snodaigh Sinn Fein party workers. You seem to have missed it somehow


Please don't tell us again that 'there is no proof' when I keep posting proof. You will notice that I have left out the murder of Gerry McCabe (which happened while Sinn Fein/IRA criminals where robbing a Post Office) and the 'mysterious' Northern Bank robbery.

No, you were asked for proof of your allegation that the IRA were heavily involved in drugs, which you have pointedly failed to do.

We know they robbed banks. We know they taxed/extorted businesses.

You made the allegation, back it up.

Wolfe Tone

There can be little argument that percentage wise at least, a greater proportion of loyalist attacks where simply sectarian in nature, whereas with the IRA it was mainly "legitimate targets" such as the security forces.

I am at a loss as to what the hell this has to do with wikileaks.

Lonesome Boatman

KeithAFC wrote: »

If the PIRA was a legit army as it has been said on here, then why did that army murder young and old unionists? That is as bad as the British army.

Why do you keep mentioning the IRA, as if this somehow justifies the British army murdering innocent children? If as you say the IRA were not a legit army and were terrorists, what does this have to do with the fact being put to you that the British army murdered children?

You think the British army is a legit army, you even buy poppies to fund them, so why do you keep using the fact that 'terrorists murdered children' to justify your support for the British army child murderers????

Surely you should be the one on this thread justifying your support a 'legit army' that murders children. As your the only one on this thread that funds the British army no-one here funds the IRA. SO stop using the IRA to deflect away from your funding of child murderers, its cowardly.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

No i don't. I support the members in the British Army now. Not the members who killed innocent people during the troubles.

Am i not in my right to buy a poppy and be proud to be British?

But the point, and well you know it, is seperating one from the other.

If somone said "I support the IRA. But not the members who killed innocent people during the troubles" they would be ridiculed.

You can't have it both ways.

What you struggle to seem to be able to say is 'I supported the British troops but those who killed and brutalised civilians should be prosecuted and thrown out of the military'.

Then there would be no issue.

We are a long way from the OP, this will be locked if it doesn't get back on course.

Lonesome Boatman

KeithAFC wrote: »

No i don't. I support the members in the British Army now. Not the members who killed innocent people during the troubles.

Am i not in my right to buy a poppy and be proud to be British?

Yes you do. The money from the poppy fund goes to veterans who served in Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Faulklands.

Not only do you support the thugs in the middle east who murder innocent children, you fund the veterans who served in Northern Ireland and murdered innocent children. The poppy fund goes to ALL BRITISH SOLDIERS past and present.

Do you think it is right, to fund the British army, who murdered innocent children?

You call SF/IRA, yet you are saying you support the British army now not the members who killed innocents during the troubles. Using this logic is it not acceptable for a SF voter to support SF without supporting what went on in the troubles?????

nacho libre

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Occam's Razor says it was the IRA. Can you propose a more likely explanation? I'm all ears.

An IRA informant working to the agenda of MI5, perhaps to force sinn fein's hand? have you ever heard of the littlejohn brothers? sometime an intelligence agency can allow an unsavoury/illegal act/operation to go ahead if they deem it will achieve a longer term objective- we saw numerous instances of this in Northern Ireland
I'm not saying this is wasn't happened in this case, but nothing that went on up there would surprise me. With this in mind we have still to find out who is the leading sinn fein informant that has never been outed.

KeithAFC

Lonesome Boatman wrote: »

Why do you keep mentioning the IRA, as if this somehow justifies the British army murdering innocent children? If as you say the IRA were not a legit army and were terrorists, what does this have to do with the fact being put to you that the British army murdered children?

You think the British army is a legit army, you even buy poppies to fund them, so why do you keep using the fact that 'terrorists murdered children' to justify your support for the British army child murderers????

Surely you should be the one on this thread justifying your support a 'legit army' that murders children. As your the only one on this thread that funds the British army no-one here funds the IRA. SO stop using the IRA to deflect away from your funding of child murderers, its cowardly.

The reason i bring up the IRA is because its seen by people on this forum as a legitmate Army. Why did that legtimate army killed young and Old unionists/Protestants? It was sectarian murder. Im using the logic people on here use when they consider the PIRA a legit army. So you can compare both the BA and the IRA if you use that logic.

You talk about the poppy, the Easter lily is seen as something which supports all branches of the IRA, dating back to 1916 and also the PIRA. Why do you buy a Lily to remember people who killed children?

KeithAFC

Using this logic is it not acceptable for a SF voter to support SF without supporting what went on in the troubles?????

No one said you can't. What people are baffled by is why anyone would want to support a party which is lead by a former IRA commander who set up and killed a lot of people.

Lonesome Boatman

KeithAFC wrote: »

No one said you can't. What people are baffled by is why anyone would want to support a party which is lead by a former IRA commander who set up and killed a lot of people.

Your friend Junder has already stated he is a British soldier, have you asked him how many people he has killed?

Im baffled why you fund veterans that murdered children.