WikiLeaks & Sinn Fein

Bottle_of_Smoke

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Not necessarily, I imagine they would be exempt, my mate from england who moved here never had to do Irish, legally this would be the same thing would it not?

had he come a few years earlier he would have had to do it

OhNoYouDidn't

junder wrote: »

I just have to read the posts on this site whenever the subject of the orange order or flute bands comes up to know how much our culture would be tolerated. Some of you can not even accept that we are not and do not wish to be Irish, moreover some of you have implied that we should leave this island in the event of you ever achieving your so called 'united ireland' because we do not wish to be defined as Irish. Am I being paranoid, don't think so

But there are orange and flute marches in the 26 county, and they happen without any trouble.

You stated that the union flag and these marches would be banned in the event of a united ireland. Utter garbage. Minority rights have always been better protected in the south than the north,

OhNoYouDidn't

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Not necessarily, I imagine they would be exempt, my mate from england who moved here never had to do Irish, legally this would be the same thing would it not?

If you start in an Irish school after the age of 10 you are exempt.

OhNoYouDidn't

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

That's not a link.

www.esri.ie

www.cso.ie

junder

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But there are orange and flute marches in the 26 county, and they happen without any trouble.

You stated that the union flag and these marches would be banned in the event of a united ireland. Utter garbage. Minority rights have always been better protected in the south than the north,

So you would be happy enough for the Dublin orange lodge to have a parade through the centre of Dublin with flute bands and union flags held high?

OhNoYouDidn't

junder wrote: »

So you would be happy enough for the Dublin orange lodge to have a parade through the centre of Dublin with flute bands and union flags held high?

Is they behave themselves, yes.

You seem to fundamentally not understand how cosmopolitan Dublin is these days. Try to remove the Belfast tinted specs.

junder

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Is they behave themselves, yes.

You seem to fundamentally not understand how cosmopolitan Dublin is these days. Try to remove the Belfast tinted specs.

And the 12th as a bank holiday?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055976022&highlight=12th+bank+holiday

Wolfe Tone

Only if we can all go to the pub

OhNoYouDidn't

junder wrote: »

And the 12th as a bank holiday?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055976022&highlight=12th+bank+holiday

Politics aside, we have the least amount of public holidays of any EU country, so I would take any going.

You are pushing against an open door here. I would be very much in favour of closer integration with the second major tradition on the island regardless of a United Ireland

I repeat, minority rights in the south always got looked after better than in the north

Dostoevsky

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Gaelic sports are dying on their arses.

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'd like a source for this

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

www.esri.ie

www.cso.ie

ESRI:

'The GAA ... is by far the largest sports body in the country and is the strongest representative of the voluntarist, community-based model of sports organisation. In 2003, it had 2,595 affiliated clubs on the island of Ireland, of which 2,124 were in the Republic and 411 in Northern Ireland (GAA, 2004). It had an additional 242 clubs overseas, which are supported by the Irish diaspora, mainly in Britain and North America (for an account of the GAA in one Irish community abroad, see Darby (2005)). Precise membership data for the GAA are not available, but the GAA itself estimates that its ‘members and active supporters’ number around 700,000, or some 15 per cent of the population (the estimate of adult members based on survey data used in this report is 300,000 – see Chapter 4 below). For 2004, the GAA reported that it had over 20,000 active teams – 12,686 in football and 6,850 in hurling (GAA, 2005, p. 24). The Association has long had a policy of acquiring and developing its own playing fields and facilities and now has an extensive physical infrastructure at club, county and national level. The combined value of its physical assets is loosely estimated at €3 billion, which would average out at something over €1 million per club (GAA, 2004, p. 22). The GAA rebuilt its national stadium – Croke Park – between 1992 and 2005 at a cost of €260 million. Gate receipts and other income from the use of Croke Park, along with €110 million in state grants, had reduced the debt on that development in 2004 down to €30 million (GAA, 2005, p. 57). The popularity of football and hurling as spectator sports is indicated by the level of attendance at intercounty championship games held during the summer months. Total attendances at these games in 2003 amounted to 1.9 million (GAA, 2004).
The size and strength of the GAA as a sports organisation is not the only aspect of its unusual character and gives an incomplete indication of its significance in Irish life. The most notable of its other features is the wide range of social and cultural objectives it sets itself, over and above its activities in sport.... Alongside its nationalism, the GAA has also espoused a strong community ethos. It is particularly strong in rural Ireland though it also has a strong presence in urban areas. A club development scheme initiated in 1970 aimed to make clubs into community and social centres, and club premises have since then been developed to meet this goal (de Búrca, 1999, pp. 207-8)....'

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20Value%20of%20Sport.pdf

That doesn't sound like "dying on their arses" in any language. There's no CSO study of sports participation available on the link you gave.

OhNoYouDidn't

Dostoevsky wrote: »

ESRI:

'The GAA ... is by far the largest sports body in the country and is the strongest representative of the voluntarist, community-based model of sports organisation. In 2003, it had 2,595 affiliated clubs on the island of Ireland, of which 2,124 were in the Republic and 411 in Northern Ireland (GAA, 2004). It had an additional 242 clubs overseas, which are supported by the Irish diaspora, mainly in Britain and North America (for an account of the GAA in one Irish community abroad, see Darby (2005)). Precise membership data for the GAA are not available, but the GAA itself estimates that its ‘members and active supporters’ number around 700,000, or some 15 per cent of the population (the estimate of adult members based on survey data used in this report is 300,000 – see Chapter 4 below). For 2004, the GAA reported that it had over 20,000 active teams – 12,686 in football and 6,850 in hurling (GAA, 2005, p. 24). The Association has long had a policy of acquiring and developing its own playing fields and facilities and now has an extensive physical infrastructure at club, county and national level. The combined value of its physical assets is loosely estimated at €3 billion, which would average out at something over €1 million per club (GAA, 2004, p. 22). The GAA rebuilt its national stadium – Croke Park – between 1992 and 2005 at a cost of €260 million. Gate receipts and other income from the use of Croke Park, along with €110 million in state grants, had reduced the debt on that development in 2004 down to €30 million (GAA, 2005, p. 57). The popularity of football and hurling as spectator sports is indicated by the level of attendance at intercounty championship games held during the summer months. Total attendances at these games in 2003 amounted to 1.9 million (GAA, 2004).
The size and strength of the GAA as a sports organisation is not the only aspect of its unusual character and gives an incomplete indication of its significance in Irish life. The most notable of its other features is the wide range of social and cultural objectives it sets itself, over and above its activities in sport.... Alongside its nationalism, the GAA has also espoused a strong community ethos. It is particularly strong in rural Ireland though it also has a strong presence in urban areas. A club development scheme initiated in 1970 aimed to make clubs into community and social centres, and club premises have since then been developed to meet this goal (de Búrca, 1999, pp. 207-8)....'

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20Value%20of%20Sport.pdf

That doesn't sound like "dying on their arses" in any language. There's no CSO study of sports participation available on the link you gave.

What I said was correct. Their playing numbers are way down and far behind football.

Dostoevsky

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What I said was correct. Their playing numbers are way down.

Could you give the precise ESRI or CSO wording which supports this claim?

Oasis_Dublin

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

www.esri.ie

www.cso.ie

You're not exactly covering yourself in glory with those links mate. Where I'm from there are 4 GAA clubs. 3 soccer clubs, one of which is a senior one. No rugby clubs in the immediate locality and I'm living in south Dublin.

I do remember John "tw*t" Delaney saying that there were more players on soccer teams in Ireland than on GAA teams but this was vague enough, just about as vague as your CSO link.

Oasis_Dublin

Dostoevsky wrote: »

ESRI:

'The GAA ... is by far the largest sports body in the country and is the strongest representative of the voluntarist, community-based model of sports organisation. In 2003, it had 2,595 affiliated clubs on the island of Ireland, of which 2,124 were in the Republic and 411 in Northern Ireland (GAA, 2004). It had an additional 242 clubs overseas, which are supported by the Irish diaspora, mainly in Britain and North America (for an account of the GAA in one Irish community abroad, see Darby (2005)). Precise membership data for the GAA are not available, but the GAA itself estimates that its ‘members and active supporters’ number around 700,000, or some 15 per cent of the population (the estimate of adult members based on survey data used in this report is 300,000 – see Chapter 4 below). For 2004, the GAA reported that it had over 20,000 active teams – 12,686 in football and 6,850 in hurling (GAA, 2005, p. 24). The Association has long had a policy of acquiring and developing its own playing fields and facilities and now has an extensive physical infrastructure at club, county and national level. The combined value of its physical assets is loosely estimated at €3 billion, which would average out at something over €1 million per club (GAA, 2004, p. 22). The GAA rebuilt its national stadium – Croke Park – between 1992 and 2005 at a cost of €260 million. Gate receipts and other income from the use of Croke Park, along with €110 million in state grants, had reduced the debt on that development in 2004 down to €30 million (GAA, 2005, p. 57). The popularity of football and hurling as spectator sports is indicated by the level of attendance at intercounty championship games held during the summer months. Total attendances at these games in 2003 amounted to 1.9 million (GAA, 2004).
The size and strength of the GAA as a sports organisation is not the only aspect of its unusual character and gives an incomplete indication of its significance in Irish life. The most notable of its other features is the wide range of social and cultural objectives it sets itself, over and above its activities in sport.... Alongside its nationalism, the GAA has also espoused a strong community ethos. It is particularly strong in rural Ireland though it also has a strong presence in urban areas. A club development scheme initiated in 1970 aimed to make clubs into community and social centres, and club premises have since then been developed to meet this goal (de Búrca, 1999, pp. 207-8)....'

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20Value%20of%20Sport.pdf

That doesn't sound like "dying on their arses" in any language. There's no CSO study of sports participation available on the link you gave.

Sounds a bit more like it. I wouldn't mind your man, sure he called it "Gah" a few posts back :eek:

Wolfe Tone

Ohnoyoudidnt seems to have it in for the GAA judging from his posts in the soccer forum tbh.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Lads OhNoYouDidn't was only talking about playing numbers as another poster questioned if all children would have to play in a united Ireland.

Yes the GAA is hugely popular and is growing so around the world not just the island. Domestically the playing numbers like every sport are however dwindling.

Computer games to blame IMO

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Is they behave themselves, yes.

You seem to fundamentally not understand how cosmopolitan Dublin is these days. Try to remove the Belfast tinted specs.

LOL. Yeah right. Having thousands upon thousands of Orange men and bands in Dublin marching with Ulster banners, Union flags, and you think it will be peaceful. Catch yourself on mate.

OhNoYouDidn't

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

You're not exactly covering yourself in glory with those links mate. Where I'm from there are 4 GAA clubs. 3 soccer clubs, one of which is a senior one. No rugby clubs in the immediate locality and I'm living in south Dublin.

I find that very hard to believe.

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I do remember John "tw*t" Delaney saying that there were more players on soccer teams in Ireland than on GAA teams but this was vague enough, just about as vague as your CSO link.

Here is your link. 17% of adult males play football (page 13), 8% gaelic and 5% hurling (page 11).

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20Value%20of%20Sport.pdf

Its relevant to the topic simply because Junder seems to see the south in rather 1950's terms. The Gah isn't the force it was, on or off the pitch.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

LOL. Yeah right. Having thousands upon thousands of Orange men and bands in Dublin marching with Ulster banners, Union flags, and you think it will be peaceful. Catch yourself on mate.

Well its hardly peaceful when they march in Belfast now, is it....

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Well its hardly peaceful when they march in Belfast now, is it....

In a lot of areas, it is. But in Dublin? The heart of the Republic? Lets not be naive.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

In a lot of areas, it is. But in Dublin? The heart of the Republic? Lets not be naive.

Maybe it is me being naive, but there are marches throughout Ulster, including Cavan and Donegal and the OO are open in Dublin. Their premisis is not a secret.

You seem to be labouring under an incorrect illusion of the south being run by bishops and the GAA

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Maybe it is me being naive, but there are marches throughout Ulster, including Cavan and Donegal and the OO are open in Dublin. Their premisis is not a secret.

You seem to be labouring under an incorrect illusion of the south being run by bishops and the GAA

The OO in Dublin (lodge), they actually try to keep a low profile, even to the degree of making sure the curtains are shut..

So i don't think everything is rosy.

Plus, marches in Dublin would just invite all the rebels to come along and start rioting like they did in 2006.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

The OO in Dublin (lodge), they actually try to keep a low profile, even to the degree of making sure the curtains are shut..

So i don't think everything is rosy.

Thats my arse.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Plus, marches in Dublin would just invite all the rebels to come along and start rioting like they did in 2006.

2006 was a very different creature marching to the OO....

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Thats my arse.



2006 was a very different creature marching to the OO....

How so? Those marches take place all over Northern Ireland. In your land of a UI, they would take place in Dublin more often you would assume. 2006 was a big blow.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Marching through Dublin isn't really an issue. Though if I was a betting man I'd predict protesting/riots


A more important issue is what impact reunification would have on marches in the north. I guess they wouldn't be triumphalist anymore so perhaps the objections would decrease a bit.

They other thing is it isn't like the dail is just gonna get bigger. If there ever is reunification then stormont and power sharing will remain. Will just be devolved from Dublin rather than London. So the government wouldn't be able to just ban them or anything.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

How so? Those marches take place all over Northern Ireland. In your land of a UI, they would take place in Dublin more often you would assume. 2006 was a big blow.

Love Ulster and their paramilitary chums is entirely irrelevant to the topic in hand, which is the OO. If you think that the OO would have provoked that backlash, we will have to disagree fundamentally.

As I have said, all OO marches to date in the 26 counties have passed off peacefully. You need to stop looking through the world with your Belfast world view. The Anglo Irish and Protestant communities in Dublin get on just fine.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Love Ulster and their paramilitary chums is entirely irrelevant to the topic in hand, which is the OO. If you think that the OO would have provoked that backlash, we will have to disagree fundamentally.

As I have said, all OO marches to date in the 26 counties have passed off peacefully. You need to stop looking through the world with your Belfast world view. The Anglo Irish and Protestant communities in Dublin get on just fine.

Mary Harney leader of the government coalition member Progressive Democrats party, whose offices were attacked by rioters said, "I don't have much respect for the Orange Order, because it is a sectarian, bigoted organisation, but I do respect people's right to march... I think that they have got a great coup in being prevented from marching. Those that sought to stop them have played right into their hands."

Their protest blocked the north eastern junction of O'Connell Street and Parnell Street. The small Republican Sinn Féin group (and some activists from the Irish Republican Socialist Party) were joined by several hundred local youths, many covering their faces with scarves. Before the violence broke out, they chanted slogans such as "The I, The I, The IRA" and others that related to the Continuity IRA.

Doesn't sound welcoming really.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

Doesn't sound welcoming really.

Unless you are arguing that FAIR and Wullie Frazer are representitive of mainstream unionism, I don't see what relevance this is?

The OO were not on that march.

Bottle_of_Smoke

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Love Ulster and their paramilitary chums is entirely irrelevant to the topic in hand, which is the OO. If you think that the OO would have provoked that backlash, we will have to disagree fundamentally.

Think this is a bit naive. I mean why the hell aren't there ever orangemen in St Patrick's day parades? A religious organisation not taking part in the patron saint of Ireland's day? Bit suspect.

If there were orange marches in Dublin on the 12th there would be riots. The vast majority of people would hold the rioters in contempt but simply put there is enough peopel who enjoy rioting and would get together to ruin it. Last march in Dublin was 1937. There are 9 counties in the republic with Lodges - including as far south as Laois and Cork, why no marches anywhere but Donegal?

As I have said, all OO marches to date in the 26 counties have passed off peacefully. You need to stop looking through the world with your Belfast world view. The Anglo Irish and Protestant communities in Dublin get on just fine.

As I've said there are so few marches it isn't surprising they've passed off peacefully. And there was vandalism at the one in Rosnowlagh in recent years.

At Rossnowlagh the Orangemen get on great with the community and there are more Protestants than most places in the republic. I wouldn't be as optimistic about a parade in other places, particularly in urban areas.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Unless you are arguing that FAIR and Wullie Frazer are representitive of mainstream unionism, I don't see what relevance this is?

The OO were not on that march.

So why did she mention the Orange Order then?