WikiLeaks & Sinn Fein

Wolfe Tone

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well in the voices from the grave documentary Bernadette McAliskey(I think) said he'd never travel in a car with guns so that could well be true.

Though would that mean he wasn't a member? Surely not. Wouldn't that be like a General in the British army claiming he wasn't in the British Army because he didn't carry out operations?

Im not making that argument, was just saying I couldn't envision Gerry as the type to be planting bombs and shooting people.

junder

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Couldn't say that for sure but I have no doubt he gave orders. There's no way of defining a 'normal' volunteer really.

Why would a hardened experienced active service member follow orders from somebody who has never been 'active' himself. How would somebody who has never been a operator achieve high rank. I seem to remember Alex maskey took alot of abuse from within republican circles for never having been an active service member.
At the end if the day the majority of people on this forum and on this island know Gerry adams was in the pira, was a commander and did order people shot, Jean mcconville springs to mind. Everybody knows the pira were behind the northern bank even the die hard republicans. If course it will be denied, to admit it would be to undermine what they stand for, can I prove it, of course not I am not a police man if privy to intelligence files, doesn't make if untrue though and at the end of the day I have yet to see anybody present any evidence to say that Gerry was not who we all know he is or that the pira did not do what we all know they did

Bottle_of_Smoke

junder wrote: »

Why would a hardened experienced active service member follow orders from somebody who has never been 'active' himself. How would somebody who has never been a operator achieve high rank. I seem to remember Alex maskey took alot of abuse from within republican circles for never having been an active service member.

I get the impression Adams did well in activist groups and political circles without getting his hands dirty. He was charismatic and well liked. I think he got a military role somehow through that and gave orders. To me that is of no real difference to being a hands on volunteer in terms of being a member of the IRA

A hardened active service member would have no choice but to obey the commands of whoever's in charge of him so once the people at the top of cells respected Adams that wouldn't be an issue.

Did you watch the voices from the graves doc or read the book?

Bottle_of_Smoke

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Im not making that argument, was just saying I couldn't envision Gerry as the type to be planting bombs and shooting people.

I think it very possible you are correct about that. What Price said in that doc would suggest so.

Is that of consequence to you though? the distinction between giving orders and actually physically carrying out operations

KeithAFC

Rebelheart wrote: »

It's forever amusing the wide variety of bitter little people who come out of the woodwork and wish to harp on about Gerry Adams's alleged membership of the IRA.

So what if he was/is a leader of the Provisional IRA? The vast majority of people in Ireland would assume he was/is and that is why he can "persuade" the Army (cue apoplexy from the usual suspects) to call a ceasefire. It's not rocket science. That you're getting all hurt by his denial is simply a sign of emotional immaturity.

If this allegation is the best you all have on Gearóid Mac Ádhaimh, you're pretty hard up.

Denying membership of Óglaigh na hÉireann is invariably tactical: in the real world, being somebody who continued on the struggle for Irish freedom against British colonial occupation is a source of ineffable pride, honour and respect. Obviously. Duh.

All the seoinín notions in the world won't detract from that reality on the ground in Ireland.

PS: Just for the record, the same people who think this is a big deal, were also gloriously wrong about Fine Gael's success in the Donegal byelection - where their vote collapsed from 23% in 2007 to 18% in 2010. Talk about a disconnect between the delusions of the disproportionate number of Fine Gaelers in this Forum and the real Ireland.

You don't think its important that he was in the PIRA and organised the bloody Friday operation and set up IRA hit squads to take out informers and asked for Jean Mcconville to be killed and buried and not thrown on the street like Brenden hughes had said.

Well im amazed that people actually vote for that but more amazed people want to push it under the carpet.

Monty Burnz

Rebelheart wrote: »

That you're getting all hurt by his denial is simply a sign of emotional immaturity.

Can I just say, 'lol'.

Presumably Adams harping on about Pat Finucane is just emotional immaturity too? Let it go Gerry - it was a war, bad things happen, we regret blah blah blah.

Did we ever establish whether the murders of Jim Curran or Robert McCartney and the intimidation of the McCartney family were heroic acts of war, or just unfortunate collateral damage? I can't remember without reading the whole thread again.

paky

KeithAFC wrote: »

You don't think its important that he was in the PIRA and organised the bloody Friday operation and set up IRA hit squads to take out informers and asked for Jean Mcconville to be killed and buried and not thrown on the street like Brenden hughes had said.

Well im amazed that people actually vote for that but more amazed people want to push it under the carpet.

no keith. decent people like to forgive and forget and get on with there lives. its people like you who keep dragging us into the past. why dont you give us a lecture on british atrocities during the troubles? mcgurks, bloody sunday, ballymurphy massacre..the list is endless.

MagicMarker

paky wrote: »

no keith. decent people like to forgive and forget and get on with there lives. its people like you who keep dragging us into the past. why dont you give us a lecture on british atrocities during the troubles? mcgurks, bloody sunday, ballymurphy massacre..the list is endless.

If it was your brother/father/sister/mother who was murdered would you ''forgive and forget''?

I think not.

My name is URL

MagicMarker wrote: »

If it was your brother/father/sister/mother who was murdered would you ''forgive and forget''?

I think not.

Was your brother/father/sister/mother murdered? Of course things shouldn't be forgiven or forgotten, but they should certainly be set aside to allow everyone else to move on. Personally, I think that Adams and the other old hats are a bigger threat to SF than anyone else simply because of their reluctance to admit wrong doing and leave the party to the younger members with no ties to paramilitaries.. but even if that happened I'd imagine people would still accost them with the same old stuff and cry 'murderers' at every opportunity.

KeithAFC

paky wrote: »

no keith. decent people like to forgive and forget and get on with there lives. its people like you who keep dragging us into the past. why dont you give us a lecture on british atrocities during the troubles? mcgurks, bloody sunday, ballymurphy massacre..the list is endless.

Move on. I'm surprised Gerry Adams gets any sleep at night but again, he earns a nice pay cheque every month, im sure it matters very little to him.

ISAW

junder wrote: »

Why would a hardened experienced active service member follow orders from somebody who has never been 'active' himself.

Hence the need for martin Mc Guinness to bring along the hard liners.
Also armies have to cede to civil power if you dont want a facist dictatorship and SF would hold to such a theory.

How would somebody who has never been a operator achieve high rank.

Well Bobby Sands for example was a member of the IRA . ( I think he joined when a bin was thrown through his front window and was told to get out of the house because a Protestant couple needed it and htris was the third time he had been moved ) but not active. Well??? He was arrested in the vicinity of a planted bomb. I think he may have been on lookout or in the company of the people who made and planted the bomb but he didn't make or carry it. So having not done much if anything along the lines of "active service2 he still held much sway because he was put in prision and he could write and was well versed in political theory and Irish language. Adams was similar. Think of Dev in 1916. He had some minor command and wasnt executed. But his intellect and oratory brought him to the fore in Prison.

Adams was the representative of the prisioners and was secretly taken out of prison to London for talks with the British government. this made him a major figure in the republican movement.

I have yet to see anybody present any evidence to say that Gerry was not who we all know he is or that the pira did not do what we all know they did

i really don't know but the argument i present shows it was not necessary for him to order executions.

ISAW

KeithAFC wrote: »

Move on. I'm surprised Gerry Adams gets any sleep at night but again, he earns a nice pay cheque every month, im sure it matters very little to him.

Not any more he is now out of a job as an MLA.

man.about.town

only in Ireland would a terrorist organization be allowed in the dail.

throw them out

Lonesome Boatman

man.about.town wrote: »

only in Ireland would a terrorist organization be allowed in the dail.

throw them out

Sinn Fein are constitutional politicians ffs :pac:

dlofnep

man.about.town wrote: »

only in Ireland would a terrorist organization be allowed in the dail.

throw them out

What terrorist organisation is that now?

PomBear

man.about.town wrote: »

only in Ireland would a terrorist organization be allowed in the dail.

throw them out

The same "terrorist organisation" founded this Government and State

Monty Burnz

PomBear wrote: »

The same "terrorist organisation" founded this Government and State

Now I'm confused: if we are talking about Sinn Fein here, why did they treat the guys who murdered an innocent policeman of the state (that they founded) like heroes upon their release?

paky

MagicMarker wrote: »

If it was your brother/father/sister/mother who was murdered would you ''forgive and forget''?

I think not.

how dare you. your talking nonsense. you'd swear your were the only ones to loose people on your side. if everyone was of the same opinion of you there would be no peace.

i hope you know you share allot in common with dissident republicans, alot more than you realise

MagicMarker

paky wrote: »

how dare you. your talking nonsense. you'd swear your were the only ones to loose people on your side. if everyone was of the same opinion of you there would be no peace.

i hope you know you share allot in common with dissident republicans, alot more than you realise

WTF are you talking about?

Which side are you talking about? Who's on ''my side''? I only asked you a question, which you failed to answer by the way.

If dissident republicans think murderers are scumbags that don't deserve to be ''forgiven or forgotten'' then I guess I do have a lot in common with them, that's fine by me.

OhNoYouDidn't

jjmcclure wrote: »

What you don't need to see evidence for (as its already out there) is the fact that the IRA murdered innocent men, women and children at the behest of Adams, McGuinness, Kelly etc.

Face facts most of them are or have been murderers, drug dealers and gangsters

Has one member of any iteration of the IRA ever been arrested, never mind convicted of, drug related offences?

OhNoYouDidn't

ghostdancer wrote: »

well it wasn't.

a basic understanding of the difference between murder and manslaughter, and the background of the incident, makes it pretty clear it wasn't murder.

And the fact that the defence were going to call the Governor of Limerick Prison to ask why he refused to accept the suspects and sent them to hospital instead.

And also bring up previous interactions with one of the IRA men, his family and Detective McCabe

One of them committed murder, three were possibly in for conspiracy. Manslaughter across the board was a result for the state.

OhNoYouDidn't

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I get the impression Adams did well in activist groups and political circles without getting his hands dirty. He was charismatic and well liked. I think he got a military role somehow through that and gave orders. To me that is of no real difference to being a hands on volunteer in terms of being a member of the IRA

A hardened active service member would have no choice but to obey the commands of whoever's in charge of him so once the people at the top of cells respected Adams that wouldn't be an issue.

Did you watch the voices from the graves doc or read the book?

Its my understanding that he was the best of what was left in the Ardoyne Brigade after internment. He was singled out as 'officer potential' and fast tracked.

Interesting theory I heard. Adams never joined the IRA. He did his initiation as Gaelige, so joined Ogligh na hEireann, and thats the justification for denial. Similar to the Workers Party denying the existance of the OIRA, they had renamed it The Special Section, or Section B. Semantics and all that.

KeithAFC

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Now I'm confused: if we are talking about Sinn Fein here, why did they treat the guys who murdered an innocent policeman of the state (that they founded) like heroes upon their release?

Because its Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein is the IRA. They don't like seeing their buddies locked up.

OhNoYouDidn't

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Now I'm confused: if we are talking about Sinn Fein here, why did they treat the guys who murdered an innocent policeman of the state (that they founded) like heroes upon their release?

Why wouldn't they?

Read back through the transcripts of the trial, very interesting and don't tend towords the 'hero cop' theory... This was a very personally motivated killing of a specific Branch man who happened to be on duty guarding the van the IRA went to rob.

Wolfe Tone

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think it very possible you are correct about that. What McAliskey said in that doc would suggest so.

Is that of consequence to you though? the distinction between giving orders and actually physically carrying out operations

Not really, I have great respect for Gerry Kelly for instance. Ether way I don't really care, was just just wondering aloud really.

Rebelheart

KeithAFC wrote: »

You don't think its important that he was in the PIRA and organised the bloody Friday operation and set up IRA hit squads to take out informers and asked for Jean Mcconville to be killed and buried and not thrown on the street like Brenden hughes had said.

Well im amazed that people actually vote for that but more amazed people want to push it under the carpet.

No, I don't think even any historically accurate points in your post would make it important. I surmise he has been a senior figure within the IRA. It's not a big deal. A guy travelling home on my bus the other day was named as Chief of Staff of the IRA in 1998. After this he was elected as a member of the British parliament. In 2002 he was named as a member of the Army Council and re-elected as a member of the British parliament on two occasions subsequently. Other lads I'd meet at cockfights and the like would be connected with it. It's boringly normal. If you want to obsess about such things we could all join you: how many people did Ken Maginnis, for instance, assassinate during his time as a B Special/UDR commander?

Rebelheart

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Can I just say, 'lol'.

Clearly, you can.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Presumably Adams harping on about Pat Finucane is just emotional immaturity too?

Come now; are you really trying to contend that the supposedly "civilised" British government should not be held to a higher standard of accountability than the supposed "terrorists" in the Irish Republican Army? You're supposed to have a higher moral ground; you're supposed to be on a permanent high of moral indignation against this latest phase in native Irish resistance to English/British rule. Then the mask slips.

How very revealing.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Let it go Gerry - it was a war, bad things happen.

But, but, but I thought the anti-Irish freedom brigade here like to claim it wasn't a "war". Make up your minds, lads.

Lonesome Boatman

KeithAFC wrote: »

Because its Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein is the IRA. They don't like seeing their buddies locked up.

I thought the PIRA no longer exist after decommissioning.

HQvhs

Rebelheart wrote: »

No, I don't think even any historically accurate points in your post would make it important. I surmise he has been a senior figure within the IRA. It's not a big deal. A guy travelling home on my bus the other day was named as Chief of Staff of the IRA in 1998. After this he was elected as a member of the British parliament. In 2002 he was named as a member of the Army Council and re-elected as a member of the British parliament on two occasions subsequently. Other lads I'd meet at cockfights and the like would be connected with it. It's boringly normal. If you want to obsess about such things we could all join you: how many people did Ken Maginnis, for instance, assassinate during his time as a B Special/UDR commander?

Just because it's 'boringly normal' doesn't make it right.

To use an entirely unrelated analogy: Banks lending out ridiculous amounts of money to developers was boringly normal 5 years ago. But that, as we have seen, did not make it right.

I honestly don't get why people defend the man being in the IRA, or (worse) denying he was ever in it. The dogs on the street know he was a senior member; denying that only makes it look as if you have been drinking the Sinn Fein Kool-Aid.

Seriously, Sinn Fein need to get rid of Gerry, McGuinness and the rest so they can acknowledge and move on from their violent past like every other mainstream political party.

Turner

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Has one member of any iteration of the IRA ever been arrested, never mind convicted of, drug related offences?

Are you having a laugh or is this a serious post??