kid faces explulsion for organising protest against budget

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

You're seriously asking me if I think murder is preferable to peaceful protest?

You're seriously asking me if I think organising a walk out of school is preferable to staying in school?

AntiMatter wrote: »

I doubt my admiration would be the same had it been a protest against Mary Byrne losing a singing contest.

I didn't ask about your admiration. I asked if he would have deserved to be punished under the same rules if he did

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

How many people? 10,000? 1,000? 500? In this instance, the number of people at the protest was 20, was that enough?

so just 20 people protested against the budget cuts in the whole of Ireland? I doubt it.

I'd say that if 10000 people protest nationwide then that's enough.

And you would have to take a day's annual leave and clear it with your employer. You don't have the right to just leave your job whenever you feel like it, just as he doesn't have the right to walk out of school whenever he feels like it

in this case, I do have the right. My rights as a citizen trump the bosses' rights to have me working for them I am afraid...

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

So if I walk out of my job anytime I want to protest, I'm more commendable because I'm running the risk of being fired?

yeah, I'd say so. It shows that you are willing to put your a** on the line for what you believe in.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

so just 20 people protested against the budget cuts in the whole of Ireland? I doubt it.

I'd say that if 10000 people protest nationwide then that's enough.

Not on that day they didn't. There were numerous protests throughout the country on weekends

Moomoo1 wrote: »

And you would have to take a day's annual leave and clear it with your employer. You don't have the right to just leave your job whenever you feel like it, just as he doesn't have the right to walk out of school whenever he feels like it

in this case, I do have the right. My rights as a citizen trump the bosses' rights to have me working for them I am afraid...

Sort of correct. Your employer can't force you to stay. However you don't get any special treatment because it's a protest. You get the same treatment as if you had just walked out and went to the cinema. You will get fired/disciplined

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

yeah, I'd say so. It shows that you are willing to put your a** on the line for what you believe in.

So you agree fully that he should be punished?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

What he did after he left school grounds is completely irrelevant

it really isn't. There are some things that are more important than school.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

it really isn't. There are some things that are more important than school.

To him, sure. Not to the school, which is why he faces explulsion

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

You're seriously asking me if I think organising a walk out of school is preferable to staying in school?


I didn't ask about your admiration. I asked if he would have deserved to be punished under the same rules if he did

That was my original point, and it's the point I'll stick to, instead of veering off into tangents about murder and Mary Byrne.

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

That was my original point, and it's the point I'll stick to, instead of veering off into tangents about murder and Mary Byrne.

So you also agree that he fully deserves to be punished

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

So you also agree that he fully deserves to be punished

He deserves to be lauded and applauded, and in my opinion a warning from the school not to do something like this again would suffice.

Moomoo1

Moomoo1 wrote: »

it really isn't. There are some things that are more important than school.

In you mind maybe. But on paper, and in law, there isn't. Life is sh*t for school students. Deal with it.

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

Not on that day they didn't. There were numerous protests throughout the country on weekends

ok, so then he should have been allowed to protest. The number of protesting people is just a way to determine the issue's importance. Whether those people came out on the weekend or not does not make a difference there.

28064212 wrote: »

Sort of correct. Your employer can't force you to stay. However you don't get any special treatment because it's a protest. You get the same treatment as if you had just walked out and went to the cinema. You will get fired/disciplined

my whole argument is that I _should_ be treated differently in the two situations.

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

He deserves to be lauded and applauded, and in my opinion a warning from the school not to do something like this again would suffice.

The applause is irrelevant. Would a warning suffice if he had led students on a walkout to protest against the X-factor? Or is it just special treatment because it's against the IMF?

Dyr

This a catholic school..you know... cathlolics.. the people who harbour kiddy fiddlers, the people who are one of the reasons we're in this mess. Ya can't have parish pump politics without a parish :pac:

They've some fkin nerve to be judging this young jim larkin

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

The applause is irrelevant. Would a warning suffice if he had led students on a walkout to protest against the X-factor? Or is it just special treatment because it's against the IMF?

The X-factor again?

He was prepared to sacrifice his position as a school student in a protest for social equality and justice, and against the selling off of his country to the economic rapists that are the IMF.

I applaud his stance. I don't believe, given his motives, that any more than a warning is deserved.

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

I applaud his stance. I don't believe, given his motives, that any more than a warning is deserved.

It's a very simple question. The applause is (again) irrelevant. Would a warning suffice if he had led students on a walkout to protest against the X-factor? Or is it just special treatment because it's against the IMF?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

To him, sure. Not to the school, which is why he faces explulsion

I am talking about how things should be, not about how they are.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

ok, so then he should have been allowed to protest. The number of protesting people is just a way to determine the issue's importance. Whether those people came out on the weekend or not does not make a difference there.

There are lots of protests all over the country all the time, even in the boom times. Taxi drivers, farmers, pensioners, homosexuals, Catholics, athiests, republicans, unionists, publicans, Muslims, immigrants and xenophobes all want to protest. What's this magic number that makes it ok to leave work to join them? Or is it just if you feel really strongly about it?

Moomoo1 wrote: »

my whole argument is that I _should_ be treated differently in the two situations.

:pac: Why? Why should your employer pay you and put up with your absences because you want to go protesting? Why don't you protest on your own time?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

So you agree fully that he should be punished?

No. He did what was right in spite of the risks. Of course he shouldn't be punished.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

No. He did what was right in spite of the risks. Of course he shouldn't be punished.

Lol, so what was the risk if there's no punishment?

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

It's a very simple question. The applause is (again) irrelevant. Would a warning suffice if he had led students on a walkout to protest against the X-factor? Or is it just special treatment because it's against the IMF?

I don't have any opinion on your hypothetical question.

I entered the thread to say one thing, not give replies to my preferences for murder over peaceful protest, or should kids be punished for leaving school to protest against Simon Cowell.

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

I don't have any opinion on your hypothetical question.

I entered the thread to say one thing, not give replies to my preferences for murder over peaceful protest, or should kids be punished for leaving school to protest against Simon Cowell.

Very well, we'll deal with what actually happened. Do you think a student who leads others on a walkout without permission from either the school or their parents deserves a slap on the wrist?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

It's a very simple question. The applause is (again) irrelevant. Would a warning suffice if he had led students on a walkout to protest against the X-factor? Or is it just special treatment because it's against the IMF?

the difference is, tens of thousands of people didn't take to the streets to protest against X-Factor.

But yeah, I'd say that only political issues should qualify as a legitimate protest reason.

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

Very well, we'll deal with what actually happened. Do you think a student who leads others on a walkout without permission from either the school or their parents deserves a slap on the wrist?

I would have to say it depends on the cause they are walking out to protest against.

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

Lol, so what was the risk if there's no punishment?

you are confusing 'what will happen' and 'what should happen'.

There WAS a risk, so he was brave for protesting in spite of it. But I am not denying that there WAS risk. I am instead saying that there SHOULDN'T have been a risk.

Dravokivich

AntiMatter wrote: »

He deserves to be lauded and applauded, and in my opinion a warning from the school not to do something like this again would suffice.

But the problem isn't with him protesting, it's with him leaving the school and inciting other people to leave other schools.

Did you read my post a couple of pages back?

I've been to the very same school, this has come up as problems before and the village was vandalised and a lot of shop lifting occured under the guise of "Students Protesting".

the only reason this received any media attention was due to him "protesting" and making it look like the school is a bad guy, which couldn't be further from the truth.

If they had gone and done something else no-one would pay any heed to what they did and would instead be questioning the ability of the school to maintain discipline. The disciplinary sanctions that are put forward as a result of this, either detention / suspension / expulsion are the only methods of discipline available for the school to action.

If this student wants to protest over the lack of responsibilty of someone else or the party they represent, he should understand the repercussions of being disciplined as a result of his lack of responsibilty.

Mr. Presentable

AntiMatter wrote: »

He was prepared to sacrifice his position as a school student in a protest for social equality and justice, and against the selling off of his country to the economic rapists that are the IMF.

.

Rubbish.

He had no idea he was risking his place in the school. He merely thought "here's a jolly chance to take a day off"

That's all. He should be effed out as an example to all other non-voters to shut the eff up until they have a voice that actually counts.

OP, he is a young adult, not a "kid". Where'd you learn to headline - the Sun?

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

the difference is, tens of thousands of people didn't take to the streets to protest against X-Factor.

I'd say more people know the ins and outs of the X-factor than the IMF bailout deal, but I digress

Moomoo1 wrote: »

But yeah, I'd say that only political issues should qualify as a legitimate protest reason.

Ah, political issues are ok. So long as you're out protesting against political issues, you never have to go to school or work?

AntiMatter wrote: »

I would have to say it depends on the cause they are walking out to protest against.

So what ones are ok to walk out on?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

There are lots of protests all over the country all the time, even in the boom times. Taxi drivers, farmers, pensioners, homosexuals, Catholics, athiests, republicans, unionists, publicans, Muslims, immigrants and xenophobes all want to protest. What's this magic number that makes it ok to leave work to join them? Or is it just if you feel really strongly about it?

In the ideal world it would be anything you feel strongly about. But there's no way of quantifying that. So I would say: anything that either brings out large amounts of people or something that affects a group that you belong to directly (homosexuals, Muslims, farmers, etc).

28064212 wrote: »

:pac: Why? Why should your employer pay you and put up with your absences because you want to go protesting? Why don't you protest on your own time?

because it is my democratic right to protest. Some things are more important than money.

neil_hosey

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Rubbish.

He had no idea he was risking his place in the school. He merely thought "here's a jolly chance to take a day off"

That's all. He should be effed out as an example to all other non-voters to shut the eff up until they have a voice that actually counts.

OP, he is a young adult, not a "kid". Where'd you learn to headline - the Sun?

no here we have someone who wasnt out protesting against the government last week..

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

In the ideal world it would be anything you feel strongly about. But there's no way of quantifying that. So I would say: anything that either brings out large amounts of people or something that affects a group that you belong to directly (homosexuals, Muslims, farmers, etc).

The magic number again. What is that number btw? Countrywide or at a specific protest? In one day or spread out over a week? What if it doesn't affect you directly but affects your partner, your children, your friends?

Moomoo1 wrote: »

because it is my democratic right to protest. Some things are more important than money.

Yet not important enough to go out and protest on your own time

Dravokivich

Moomoo1 wrote: »

because it is my democratic right to protest. Some things are more important than money.

Just don't think it's an excusable reason when you get questioned over it.

If I had a company and an employee of mine hopped off because they were offended by something, along with a lot of other people, enough to protest as you put it... I'd re-consider why I employed that person as they wouldn't be taking their responsiblities seriously. I would also be concerned about any possible re-occurences with further protesting...

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

I'd say more people know the ins and outs of the X-factor than the IMF bailout deal, but I digress

So? They don't take to the streets over it.

28064212 wrote: »

Ah, political issues are ok. So long as you're out protesting against political issues, you never have to go to school or work?

who said 'never'? It's not like that kid made a habit of leaving school to protest?

Dravokivich

Moomoo1 wrote: »

who said 'never'? It's not like that kid made a habit of leaving school to protest?

Everyone who says he was right to walk out of school and incite other pupils from other schools to do the same for something they "believed in," would in turn be encouraging other students in other schools to do the same.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

So? They don't take to the streets over it.

They do actually, there's invariably people outside the studios with their homemade posters protesting against their darling being kicked off the show

Moomoo1 wrote: »

who said 'never'? It's not like that kid made a habit of leaving school to protest?

Firstly, how do you know? And secondly, you said if they have a good reason, they should be allowed do it with no repercussions. What if I decide I'm going to go protesting every single day until the deal is overturned (just 9 to 5 of course, I'm busy in the evening), should I not be fired from my job?

AntiMatter

Dravokivich wrote: »

But the problem isn't with him protesting, it's with him leaving the school and inciting other people to leave other schools.

Did you read my post a couple of pages back?

I've been to the very same school, this has come up as problems before and the village was vandalised and a lot of shop lifting occured under the guise of "Students Protesting".

the only reason this received any media attention was due to him "protesting" and making it look like the school is a bad guy, which couldn't be further from the truth.

If they had gone and done something else no-one would pay any heed to what they did and would instead be questioning the ability of the school to maintain discipline. The disciplinary sanctions that are put forward as a result of this, either detention / suspension / expulsion are the only methods of discipline available for the school to action.

If this student wants to protest over the lack of responsibilty of someone else or the party they represent, he should understand the repercussions of being disciplined as a result of his lack of responsibilty.

Except he didn't vandalise or go shoplifting. He went on a peaceful protest, for a very good cause, despite the personal risks involved.

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Rubbish.

He had no idea he was risking his place in the school. He merely thought "here's a jolly chance to take a day off"

That's all. He should be effed out as an example to all other non-voters to shut the eff up until they have a voice that actually counts.

OP, he is a young adult, not a "kid". Where'd you learn to headline - the Sun?

I heard the kid when he took the podium outside the Dail, during the midweek protest, and was gladdened to see his awareness of the problem and willingness to take risks to protest against it.

Those that have a voice aren't consistently or effectively making themselves heard, hence the willingness of the government to walk all over them, hence my appreciation of anyone who does stand up, be they the kids from Clondalkin or Mayo, who walked out of schools this week, or anyone else for that matter.

28064212 wrote: »

So what ones are ok to walk out on?

Any chance of you wandering of on your tangents by yourself?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

The magic number again. What is that number btw? Countrywide or at a specific protest? In one day or spread out over a week? What if it doesn't affect you directly but affects your partner, your children, your friends?

partner and children is fine, friends probably not. If it brings out >10000 people countrywide (spread out over a period of time), it's important enough.

28064212 wrote: »

Yet not important enough to go out and protest on your own time

as someone said before, it was important to them to go when the chief whip was in office. So, during office hours. I am afraid it just wasn't possible to go on their own time, and so democracy had to come before school discipline. The kid merely did what was right.

Mr. Presentable

neil_hosey wrote: »

no here we have someone who wasnt out protesting against the government last week..

I suppose that's almost a sentence. As it was in response to a post of mine I'd be delighted should you let me know what it actually means.

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

I heard the kid when he took the podium outside the Dail, during the midweek protest, and was gladdened to see his awareness of the problem and willingness to take risks to protest against it.

Those that have a voice aren't consistently or effectively making themselves heard, hence the willingness of the government to walk all over them, hence my appreciation of anyone who does stand up, be they the kids from Clondalkin or Mayo, who walked out of schools this week, or anyone else for that matter.

Great. Delighted for him. If he wants to spend every waking minute telling everyone how crap the deal is, he can go nuts. He'll be expelled. If he wants to spend every minute that he's not in school doing the same, even better

AntiMatter wrote: »

Any chance of you wandering of on your tangents by yourself?

Any chance of you answering a relevant question some time in the near-to-middle future?

Moomoo1

Dravokivich wrote: »

Just don't think it's an excusable reason when you get questioned over it.

If I had a company and an employee of mine hopped off because they were offended by something, along with a lot of other people, enough to protest as you put it... I'd re-consider why I employed that person as they wouldn't be taking their responsiblities seriously. I would also be concerned about any possible re-occurences with further protesting...

they are taking their responsibilities seriously. Just that the responsibilities to the proper democratic process come before responsibilities to the employer.

As it should be.

Moomoo1

Dravokivich wrote: »

Everyone who says he was right to walk out of school and incite other pupils from other schools to do the same for something they "believed in," would in turn be encouraging other students in other schools to do the same.

Well, that's good. I think students all around the country should follow his example. Political apathy among the young is one of the major problems in this country.

Dravokivich

AntiMatter wrote: »

Except he didn't vandalise or go shoplifting. He went on a peaceful protest, for a very good cause, despite the personal risks involved.

There was no personal risk envolved, I specifically mentioned the issues before to highlight why this is being taken so seriously by the school. He can't be excused purely because of the issues he intended to highlight.

AntiMatter wrote: »

I heard the kid when he took the podium outside the Dail, during the midweek protest, and was gladdened to see his awareness of the problem and willingness to take risks to protest against it.

Outside the Dáil, that's a great place to protest about the Government, this protest, was in the evening right? Didn't miss any school time over it, nice...

AntiMatter wrote: »

Those that have a voice aren't consistently or effectively making themselves heard, hence the willingness of the government to walk all over them, hence my appreciation of anyone who does stand up, be they the kids from Clondalkin or Mayo, who walked out of schools this week, or anyone else for that matter.

There's no problem with standing up and making yourself heard, but you can't go around encouraging kids to ditch school and make them look like revolutionaries.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

partner and children is fine, friends probably not. If it brings out >10000 people countrywide (spread out over a period of time), it's important enough.

So if there were 9,999 people countrywide (spread out over some undefined period of time), they should all be punished by their respective employers and schools? But if they could get one more person, that's fine?

Moomoo1 wrote: »

as someone said before, it was important to them to go when the chief whip was in office. So, during office hours. I am afraid it just wasn't possible to go on their own time, and so democracy had to come before school discipline. The kid merely did what was right.

So get their parent's and/or school's permission. It's not exactly a difficult thing to do. If I felt strongly enough about something to protest, and it needs to be during office hours, I'll take a day of annual leave (or just organise it with my employer that he doesn't pay me for my day off if I've none left)

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

Great. Delighted for him. If he wants to spend every waking minute telling everyone how crap the deal is, he can go nuts. He'll be expelled. If he wants to spend every minute that he's not in school doing the same, even better

Don't lose your focus there.

Any chance of you answering a relevant question some time in the near-to-middle future?

Since you're trying to befuddle me with murder, the X-factor and want me to compile lists of what constitutes a 'good protest', you'll be waiting a while.

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

They do actually, there's invariably people outside the studios with their homemade posters protesting against their darling being kicked off the show

not enough. Anyway, it's not a political issue.

28064212 wrote: »

Firstly, how do you know?

because he is still at the school?

28064212 wrote: »

And secondly, you said if they have a good reason, they should be allowed do it with no repercussions. What if I decide I'm going to go protesting every single day until the deal is overturned (just 9 to 5 of course, I'm busy in the evening), should I not be fired from my job?

but that's not relevant. The kid just went on one march, not protest for days on end.

since you ask, no, you shouldn't be allowed to do that. Actually, he was protesting on the actual day of the budget, so that's your answer: you can leave work to protest against legislation as it's being passed/announced.

28064212

AntiMatter wrote: »

Since you're trying to befuddle me with murder, the X-factor and want me to compile lists of what constitutes a 'good protest', you'll be waiting a while.

And back we go again.

AntiMatter wrote: »

I would have to say it depends on the cause they are walking out to protest against.

Since you didn't answer the question the first time, what are the causes where it's ok to walk out? Is that relevant enough for you?

Moomoo1

28064212 wrote: »

So if there were 9,999 people countrywide (spread out over some undefined period of time), they should all be punished by their respective employers and schools? But if they could get one more person, that's fine?

yes. Because in reality that's how laws work.

Now of course I'd rather not set boundaries and work on common sense. Because the reality is, most of us _won't_ make a habit of leaving work/school regularly to protest.

28064212 wrote: »

So get their parent's and/or school's permission. It's not exactly a difficult thing to do. If I felt strongly enough about something to protest, and it needs to be during office hours, I'll take a day of annual leave (or just organise it with my employer that he doesn't pay me for my day off if I've none left)

students don't get annual leave anyway. The school refused permission, it even locked the doors.

that's not the point though. Why should I get permission for excercising my DEMOCRATIC RIGHT?

AntiMatter

Dravokivich wrote: »

There was no personal risk envolved, I specifically mentioned the issues before to highlight why this is being taken so seriously by the school. He can't be excused purely because of the issues he intended to highlight.


Outside the Dáil, that's a great place to protest about the Government, this protest, was in the evening right? Didn't miss any school time over it, nice...



There's no problem with standing up and making yourself heard, but you can't go around encouraging kids to ditch school and make them look like revolutionaries.

No, you're right. Self preservation is probably best.

AntiMatter

28064212 wrote: »

And back we go again.


Since you didn't answer the question the first time, what are the causes where it's ok to walk out? Is that relevant enough for you?

Yip, round and round you go again.

28064212

Moomoo1 wrote: »

since you ask, no, you shouldn't be allowed to do that. Actually, he was protesting on the actual day of the budget, so that's your answer: you can leave work to protest against legislation as it's being passed/announced.

Ah, at last some hard details, rather than whatever random figures and 'feelings' pop into your head. So two days for any piece of legislation? Or are you going to nail down what pieces of legislation you're allowed two days off work for? They're all political issues after all

Moomoo1 wrote: »

yes. Because in reality that's how laws work.

It's really not

But regardless, why 10,000? Why not 5,000? Why not 15,000? Why not 100?

Moomoo1 wrote: »

students don't get annual leave anyway.

No, but they can't leave without their parent's permission

Moomoo1 wrote: »

that's not the point though. Why should I get permission for excercising my DEMOCRATIC RIGHT?

You don't need permission to exercise your "DEMOCRATIC RIGHT". You do need permission to leave work and/or school