Ospreys v Munster, 18 Dec, KO 15:30pm. SS1.

Monty Burnz

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

Poite was poor to both teams. He probably cost Ospreys a bonus point by wrongly saying that they didn't have time for a scrum at the end so for that I'm grateful!

Ospreys weren't in the running for a bonus point, Munster were

slingerz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

:rolleyes:

right so roll eyes what do you suggest he should have done?

eigrod

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yes. At the end of the game when Munster players disappeared with the ball trying to waste time? Have no sympathy for O'Gara there.

That's ridiculous to be honest. Time was up at that stage. Didn't matter how long Munster held on to the ball, it was going back for the penalty anyway.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

I also don't think Collins should be cited I mean its rugby after all it was a bit of hand bags and there wasn't even a punch thrown!

The think is that in the game now, if you go near someones face you are looking for a sustantial ban. He was going at Leamy and got his hands under the scrumcap so his hands were in the eye area. In the modern game thats a minimum 12 week ban.

Maybe I got it wrong, I only saw it once, but Leamy was indicating to Poite that Collins had a go at his eyes. I'll review my opinion when I see it again though.

irishbucsfan

eigrod wrote: »

That's ridiculous to be honest. Time was up at that stage. Didn't matter how long Munster held on to the ball, it was going back for the penalty anyway.

What if Ospreys wanted to take the tap right away and not give Munster the time to reorganise their defense? Munster had no right to keep that ball.

Cpt_Blackbeard

slingerz wrote: »

right so roll eyes what do you suggest he should have done?

Well you don't punch the player back anyway. The citing commissioners would be licking their lips at the chance of making an example of another high profile Munster player.

backrow67n8

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What if Ospreys wanted to take the tap right away and not give Munster the time to reorganise their defense? Munster had no right to keep that ball.

Yeah your right, pity every player and every team in the world played exactly to the laws, never seen that happen before :rolleyes:

eigrod

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What if Ospreys wanted to take the tap right away and not give Munster the time to reorganise their defense? Munster had no right to keep that ball.

So Munster should've hurried the ball back to them so they could take a quick tap ? Sorry, that just doesn't happen - by any team.

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What if Ospreys wanted to take the tap right away and not give Munster the time to reorganise their defense? Munster had no right to keep that ball.

That is smart play and happens tens of times in every game. If you agree with punching a player for that I'm sure you agree the POC was in the right so...

JustinDee

Some of the fickle and OTT reactions here would make even an England cricket fan look loyal to their team.
Blame ref all you like but the issues that Munster will be reviewing most are missed tackles, some of the decision making at rucks and yes, the technical side of the scrum against a strong side.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

That is smart play and happens tens of times in every game. If you agree with punching a player for that I'm sure you agree the POC was in the right so...

Yes it is smart play. But if you are walking away with the ball and are confronted by the opposition and don't give it back, and take a smack for it, dont cry if the other player isn't punished.

Mike Phillips could have been penalised, but so could O'Gara (or whoever it was who took the ball), so where has Poite harmed Munster?


And comparing that to POC is ridiculous.

backrow67n8

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes it is smart play. But if you are walking away with the ball and are confronted by the opposition and don't give it back, and take a smack for it, dont cry if the other player isn't punished.

Mike Phillips could have been penalised, but so could O'Gara (or whoever it was who took the ball), so where has Poite harmed Munster?


And comparing that to POC is ridiculous.

How is it?

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes it is smart play. But if you are walking away with the ball and are confronted by the opposition and don't give it back, and take a smack for it, dont cry if the other player isn't punished.

Mike Phillips could have been penalised, but so could O'Gara (or whoever it was who took the ball), so where has Poite harmed Munster?


And comparing that to POC is ridiculous.

Ridiculous how?

It was a punch (ie. a deliberate attempt at harm) for a much lesser piece of foul play. The outcomes of both incidents are only different because POC doesn't wear fake tan and so his attempt at swatting a player was much more effective.

Now, can we bring this back on topic of the match?

I think the Scum showed the the 'Preys did their homework after getting their asses handed them at the set piece a couple of times last week. Munster looked like the expected the same and were totally unprepared.

toomevara

No More discussion of POC. Back OT

duckysauce

slingerz wrote: »

ROG is the biggest coward i've ever seen if Phillips is acting up then a right hook will put him in his place. i dont think he made a tackle all day

if he hit Phillips a right hook O Gara would get banned , O Gara might be alot of things , but he is not a coward.

phog

JustinDee wrote: »

Blame ref all you like but the issues that Munster will be reviewing most are missed tackles, some of the decision making at rucks and yes, the technical side of the scrum against a strong side.

Yes I'd agree about the issues that Munster will be reviewing and hoping to fix but theres' no taking away that the officicials cost us 10 points, ROG was taken out in the immediate lead up to their try and his kick being deemed to have gone dead was a wrong call, it then resulted in Muster being penalised in a scrum back where in fact it should have been a 22 dropout. All tough calls in a tight game where Munster were finding it hard to get attacking ball especially from the scrum.

Today's game must surely have been our worst at scrum time add to that some poor 1st time attempts at tackles and sloppy support running made our chances of winning very difficult.

Overall, on our head to head matches against the Ospreys Munster will come out on top as a result of tries scored so we still have a chance of topping the pool but we need to win our last two games.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Yes I'd agree about the issues that Munster will be reviewing and hoping to fix but theres' no taking away that the officicials cost us 10 points, ROG was taken out in the immediate lead up to their try and his kick being deemed to have gone dead was a wrong call, it then resulted in Muster being penalised in a scrum back where in fact it should have been a 22 dropout. All tough calls in a tight game where Munster were finding it hard to get attacking ball especially from the scrum.

Howlett blatantly taking out the Ospreys jumpers in the lead up to Earls' try cancels out that.

Cpt_Blackbeard

thomond2006 wrote: »

Howlett blatantly taking out the Ospreys jumpers in the lead up to Earls' try cancels out that.

Howlett could say that he was going for the ball, which is possible at least, B Davies (I think) could make no such claim. Taking ROG out was more more blatant and ROG missed his conversion anyway.

Those 5 points lost us the game.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Howlett blatantly taking out the Ospreys jumpers in the lead up to Earls' try cancels out that.

Dont agree at all, I know Sky called it that way but for me it was a 50/50 ball.

Both players were running in the same direction, ball bounced ahead of them and then travelled back in their direction in the air, Fussell stopped and then jumped slightly backwards towards the oncoming Howlett , it was more of a collision then being pushed off the ball.

ROG being taken out was a clear cut penalty to Munster.

JustinDee

Phog, ROG was offside at the ruck you refer to.
The biggest boon to Munster's defeat had nothing to do with the ref. Ignoring overlaps that would guarantee a try is just unforgivable.
They didn't play smart.
As for the ref, watch where Buckley goes after lifting 2 or 3 jumper. Not once was he pinged.
Blame the ref all you like but you may as well
be blaming the singer who murders Bizet's operas before every home game at Thomond Pk.

Lawstudent1

Actually as someone pointed out to me when I brought that up O'Gara was offside. I initially thought the same as you.

Risteard

The scrum has once again been but under the spotlight. Absolutely abysmal. Fair enough Adam Jones is a pretty good operator but Paul James? Good, yes but not exactly a world beater.

Poite didn't have an outcome on this match IMO, though he did continually miss crooked throws, I didn't have a major problem with him.

As JustinD said, missed tackles crucified us. One instance I think was before they got their last penalty kick.

Butchering the chance just after half time was unforgivable. 'What chance?' you may say. Exactly. We had a bucket load, all we had to do was shift the ball out past the forwards standing 2 cm to the ruck and it was a guaranteed try.

We're not out of it yet but Toulon is a must win.

phog

JustinDee wrote: »

Phog, ROG was offside at the ruck you refer to.
The biggest boon to Munster's defeat had nothing to do with the ref. Ignoring overlaps that would guarantee a try is just unforgivable.
They didn't play smart.
As for the ref, watch where Buckley goes after lifting 2 or 3 jumper. Not once was he pinged.
Blame the ref all you like but you may as well
be blaming the singer who murders Bizet's operas before every home game at Thomond Pk.

Since when has the ref the authority to allow an advantage continue even after the team with the advantage commits a foul, I always thought he had to go back to the original foul.

I'm not blaming the ref but in those two incidents he and/or his a/refs got it wrong.

CouchSmart

Really disappointed with the result today. Ospreys are a very beatable team. The scrum was annihilated, worrying for Ireland because Buckley will probably start the 6 nations. Don't see the point in giving out about the ref, won't achieve much.

On a side note, I was watching the game in Slatterys before the Leinster one and it was great to see all the Leinster fans getting behind Munster. Some people on here could learn a lot from them.

Teej

How was Bowe at 13?

wixfjord

CouchSmart wrote: »

Really disappointed with the result today. Ospreys are a very beatable team. The scrum was annihilated, worrying for Ireland because Buckley will probably start the 6 nations. Don't see the point in giving out about the ref, won't achieve much.

On a side note, I was watching the game in Slatterys before the Leinster one and it was great to see all the Leinster fans getting behind Munster. Some people on here could learn a lot from them.

I was one of those!

JustinDee

phog wrote: »

Since when has the ref the authority to allow an advantage continue even after the team with the advantage commits a foul, I always thought he had to go back to the original foul

Not what I'm saying.
You're slamming certain infringements and ignoring others.

JustinDee

Teej wrote: »

How was Bowe at 13?

Mainly in defence or decoy mode.

wixfjord

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ridiculous how?

It was a punch (ie. a deliberate attempt at harm) for a much lesser piece of foul play. The outcomes of both incidents are only different because POC doesn't wear fake tan and so his attempt at swatting a player was much more effective.

Now, can we bring this back on topic of the match?

I think the Scum showed the the 'Preys did their homework after getting their asses handed them at the set piece a couple of times last week. Munster looked like the expected the same and were totally unprepared.

Que?!
Munster scrum was poor last week as well.

As someone said earlier on, this Munster is not half as street smart as it's predecessors were. Not nearly. This, coupled with a poor scrum and a 9 and 10 that couldnt create anything is a big problem. Thought the back row was good, (except Leamy's crazy brainfarts), and MOD was good, but the like of Buckle, DOC + Du Preez put in very un Munster forward performances.

As for Tuitopou, he's a brainless idiot, just like Mafi tbh, a really anti Munster player, and he's only showing it more and more.

CouchSmart

Highlights RTE2 now.

Otacon

Can someone explain what Tuitupou did wrongly in his tackle of Fussell [I think it was Fussell]?

I could be wrong here, but to me, he didn't dump the player as Fussell jumped into the tackle. He also held onto the player for the entirety of the tackle and he controlled the landing. What was wrong with it?

Monty Burnz

CouchSmart wrote: »

On a side note, I was watching the game in Slatterys before the Leinster one and it was great to see all the Leinster fans getting behind Munster. Some people on here could learn a lot from them.

It's a bizarre attitude alright. I'm a Munster fan, but I'll support every Irish team. How the hell can you support Ireland, yet hate one (or more) of the provinces? Ulster led the way in European rugby, then Munster took up the baton for years. Now it looks like Leinster are our leading hope to win it again. If Munster aren't to win it, give me one of the Irish teams every time - I'd still be delighted.

Monty Burnz

Otacon wrote: »

Can someone explain what Tuitupou did wrongly in his tackle of Fussell [I think it was Fussell]?

I could be wrong here, but to me, he didn't dump the player as Fussell jumped into the tackle. He also held onto the player for the entirety of the tackle and he controlled the landing. What was wrong with it?

I'm not 100% sure to be honest, but I learned from a post earlier in the thread that as a consequence of it, no Irish person can ever complain about BOD's spear ever again...

JustinDee

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's a bizarre attitude alright. I'm a Munster fan, but I'll support every Irish team. How the hell can you support Ireland, yet hate one (or more) of the provinces? Ulster led the way in European rugby, then Munster took up the baton for years. Now it looks like Leinster are our leading hope to win it again. If Munster aren't to win it, give me one of the Irish teams every time - I'd still be delighted.

*applause*
And long may it be so.

CatFromHue

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's a bizarre attitude alright. I'm a Munster fan, but I'll support every Irish team. How the hell can you support Ireland, yet hate one (or more) of the provinces? Ulster led the way in European rugby, then Munster took up the baton for years. Now it looks like Leinster are our leading hope to win it again. If Munster aren't to win it, give me one of the Irish teams every time - I'd still be delighted.

there is a strong munster leinster rivalry but i think the people who shout for munster/leinsters opposition when they are playing are the people who think the first irish team to win the heineken are munster.

i wouldnt be as pessimistic about munsters chances. they lost away to a good team but got the bouns point.

i think they'll beat l irish at home as by that stage irish will be well and truly out so the bonus point could be got here. it will come down to how they get on in toulon.

their future in this tournament is still in their own hands.

phog

JustinDee wrote: »

Not what I'm saying.
You're slamming certain infringements and ignoring others.

I'm ignoring other simply because I could be here forever highlighting poor decisions by the officials, the point I was making is the officials got it blatantly wrong in the lead up to two of Ospreys scores, something you cant seem to accept.

JustinDee

phog wrote: »

I'm ignoring other simply because I could be here forever highlighting poor decisions by the officials, the point I was making is the officials got it blatantly wrong in the lead up to two of Ospreys scores, something you cant seem to accept.

If the ref had reffed every facet to the letter of those phases that I've been pointing out, Ronan O'Gara would have been penalised for offside. Ospreys would have opted for the scrum given their dominance in that area and gone for a pushover try or led up for a demoralising penalty try.

LostPassword

I thought that the Ospreys engaged early in every single scrum. That Munster didn't cop to this is worrying - as is the fact that Buckley's height is such that if he loses the hit he gets turned in so easily.

On the bigger picture, the result doesn't really matter all that much - Munster still have to win in Toulon - if they do they will almost certainly qualify. What the hell they can do with their scrum is another question though - really got to hope that Borlase comes through. No way they will survive at the business end of the competition with that scrum.

ironingbored

phog wrote: »

... but theres' no taking away that the officicials cost us 10 points,

To be fair Munster's try had some controversy to it. You could argue that Dougie pushed/took out at least one if not both potential defenders.

ironingbored

I think Munster really need an injection on new players. I think Bowe, Carr and Cronin should be considered.

I think fundamentally Munster's problems are with the coaching. The game has evolved so much in such a short space of time and to be honest McGahan and Co. have not adapted either mindset or personnel.

JustinDee

ironingbored wrote: »

I think fundamentally Munster's problems are with the coaching. The game has evolved so much in such a short space of time and to be honest McGahan and Co. have not adapted either mindset or personnel.

How exactly?
They were hardly bullied at the breakdown, the main area of any change in the game. They took four turnovers in fact.
The tackle-count was high but so unfortunately was the missed tackle count.
During the game, a coach can't make decisions for the team on which way to go with the ball at a crucial dead-cert breakdown. Nor can they pipe down ill-discipline.

Its a very tough group.
In my honest opinion, its not a situation of Munster losing but Ospreys winning.

heybaby

Yes I think of the two provincial sides Munster and Leinster, the latter are looking in better shape. Watching munster is like watching the irish national side, in that both are obsessed wity taking the ball into contact, recycling the ball through endless phases ad nauseum, its predictable and while effective in seasons past ie versus toulouse in the final, its now outdated. the emphasis must be on running rugby.

The munster scrum too mirrors the national scrum, hayes is really being exposed at this stage of his career and if buckley at 30 years of age is still having difficulty with the technicalities of the scrum, well hes never going to get it, so why dont they look elsewhere?

Overall a very average performance from a munster side that looks to be running out of ideas and time. You cannot discount their spirit or experience but as a team they arent evolving and this will be highlighted sooner rather than later im afraid.

Redsock

Quite simply if munster had a th prop worthy of the name they would've beaten the ospreys.

thomond2006

Redsock wrote: »

Quite simply if munster had a th prop worthy of the name they would've beaten the ospreys.

Get Adam Jones, I'll pay half his salary*.


















*goes to bank
*Bank: GFY
*:(

Lawstudent1

ironingbored wrote: »

I think Munster really need an injection on new players. I think Bowe, Carr and Cronin should be considered.

I think fundamentally Munster's problems are with the coaching. The game has evolved so much in such a short space of time and to be honest McGahan and Co. have not adapted either mindset or personnel.

Cronin is not needed once Flannery is fit again. I do agree with Bowe and Carr however. I think Munster also need to sign a tighthead and a new backrow player to replace the ageing Wallace and Quinaln. If the rumours regarding McCaw and Nonu are to be believed then happy days. If Munster signed those two, a half decent tighthead and somene like Carr then they'd be a top force again. I really don't know if I want to see further watering down of Munster born players though. Let us not forget that Felix Jones will be back soon and will add a massive injection of pace to our backline which will make a difference.

Cpt_Blackbeard

I agree that the majority of Munster's problems lie with the Coaching staff. Fisher the "elv expert" is a waste of a salary and brings nothing to the table. Jason Holland too seems unable to bring anything to the back line; We have the players to create moments of magic but we look very very static, its very similar in that facet to the Irish backline.

The scrum was a problem yesterday but everyteam has bad days at the scrum. We had improved exponentially and Mushy was looking like a capable scrummager until yesterday. I'll agree that it looked to me like they were getting an early engage though.

We need to find a 12 that can get the backline moving, no more of these bash merchants. Hopefully when Jones comes back Warwick will get a chance to fill the hole for the rest of the season. Hopefully by next season Deasy will be a good enough 12. It will leave us fairly weak defensively, but the tries scores should out weigh the tries conceeded.

I wouldn't mind a season or 2 of just getting out of our group but not competing for the HC if the outcome was an excellent team of Irish internationals.

ironingbored

JustinDee wrote: »

How exactly?
They were hardly bullied at the breakdown, the main area of any change in the game. They took four turnovers in fact.
The tackle-count was high but so unfortunately was the missed tackle count.
During the game, a coach can't make decisions for the team on which way to go with the ball at a crucial dead-cert breakdown. Nor can they pipe down ill-discipline.

Its a very tough group.
In my honest opinion, its not a situation of Munster losing but Ospreys winning.

I just think Munster are trying to win games in the same manner they've done in the past and the game has moved on. None of the back rowers are really dynamic ball carriers.

Howlett is arguably one of the greatest finishers in world rugby (in the twilight of his career granted), and he is all too often underutilised. Earls doesn't seem to be progressing as we would have hoped.

Lawstudent1

I'm beginning to think that Earls' best position is on the wing the problem is we don't have anyone else for 13.

PhatPiggins

ironingbored wrote: »

I just think Munster are trying to win games in the same manner they've done in the past and the game has moved on. None of the back rowers are really dynamic ball carriers.

Howlett is arguably one of the greatest finishers in world rugby (in the twilight of his career granted), and he is all too often underutilised. Earls doesn't seem to be progressing as we would have hoped.

You might want to think about that bit. I agree with you on Earls, without wanting to be critical of a young player he seems to be at the same level as three seasons ago.

sleepyman

heybaby wrote: »

Yes I think of the two provincial sides Munster and Leinster, the latter are looking in better shape. Watching munster is like watching the irish national side, in that both are obsessed wity taking the ball into contact, recycling the ball through endless phases ad nauseum, its predictable and while effective in seasons past ie versus toulouse in the final, its now outdated. the emphasis must be on running rugby.

The munster scrum too mirrors the national scrum, hayes is really being exposed at this stage of his career and if buckley at 30 years of age is still having difficulty with the technicalities of the scrum, well hes never going to get it, so why dont they look elsewhere?

Overall a very average performance from a munster side that looks to be running out of ideas and time. You cannot discount their spirit or experience but as a team they arent evolving and this will be highlighted sooner rather than later im afraid.

Have to say I'm worried about the toulon game.Hayes is a great servant but at this stage should be relieved of his central contract.

Agree on Buckley -at this stage if he can't scrum he never will.Being a good ball carrier and good at rucktime can't compensate for a scrum that's going backwards, giving penalties away at scrumtime etc.

Rog seems to be trying to play closer to the gameline but he's just not comfortable with being a running outhalf-he ain't quade cooper or Daniel Carter unfortunately.I still can't believe that professional coaching/training can't improve Tomás O Leary's pass.It's just so slow and gives the backs no space or time.

Long term I think there are grounds for optimism with the likes of Sherry, Nagle, O Mahony.It will be interesting to see will Keatley dislodge O Gara next year.