satellite installation courses?

whatsamsn

Anyone know any satellite installation courses in the dublin area?
I seen a few on google. One in particular being 4 days long and 1400 euro :eek:

Is that the standard fee?


cheers

watty

That's pretty cheap, unless you are part of a group booking. Even then it's not bad.

There will be some Sat installer courses in association with ISAA in Jan/Feb near Limerick. Some accommodation is available on site and there would be pickup/setdown to Limerick Railway/Bus station included in price.

Be suspicious of anything much shorter or cheaper.

whatsamsn

Thanks for getting back man.

The price seems a bit much tho doesnt it?
Like there is alot of course that are 1000euro+ ... thats just the way it is. But for 4 days? and its 1400 euro? ... seems pricey.

But is there only a few places that run courses here in ireland?

watty

Doesn't seem pricey to me. But it depends on Course content, size of groups, what mix of lecture, tutorial, lab and outdoor practical.

Then there is equipment, Insurance etc..

assume 8 hrs x 4 = 24hr.
Just hiring a Cheap professional would be €1440, ex overheads, premises, insurance, coffee and biscuits.

obviously some one with Garage and only qualified to drill holes would be cheaper.

whatsamsn

Again, thanks for getting back :P
If its ok, can i ask what do your average satellite courses entail?


I've messed about with tv/satellite cables before (multiviewing etc :P ) who hasnt :P

do these courses give you a basic knowledge of where to drill/not drill etc? as you dont want to hit an electrical line etc? :P

Nehaxak

That all seems extremely expensive, especially considering installing basic satellite dishes is not exactly rocket science but common sense, a bit of practical knowledge, how to use your spectrum analyser or simple sat finder and some manual labour. Even the use of the Sat finders and cheap cost of same has made it an awful lot easier.

When you get into the realms of VSAT installations it becomes more complex and can be particular to types of systems used, router/modem setups etc., in which case the price tag of thousands might well be justified, depending on exactly what systems you're being trained up on. However, if you wanted to go down that route, I'd steer clear of anything offered in Ireland (if there even is anything offered) at present and consider something like the training offered from GVF http://gvf.coursehost.com/ which is internationally recognised and properly certified.
Even at that, before you went to the GVF, if VSAT's is what interests you rather than just simple Sat dish installations, then consider approaching EutelSat directly in Paris for practical hands-on training and theory on their setups or via their hub @ Skylogic in Turin/Italy. The training in Paris only takes a couple days, and depending on how nice you talk to them, will normally be free other than the expenses involved in a cheap Ryanair flight and a shuttle taxi to and from EutelSat itself - along with possible accommodation costs and taxi's involved from there to EutelSat in the mornings if the course is still split over a couple of days (which it might not be, could well be just a full day now). Will still work out cheaper and you're getting certified by EutelSat directly to install their Satellite systems, they'll even train you up on the simpler KA dish stuff which would be decent prep in advance of the Saorsat which will use similar.
The GVF then would be your next step, career wise, to improving your knowledge and abilities, if indeed you wanted to progress further.

Again though, if it's just simple Sat TV dish installs, acquire and learn to use a Sat meter and then the practicalities of installing a dish, pointing, positioning, placement, safety, etc., You can do most of that yourself by taking it up as a hobby.

Tony

John Breeds book from swift publications is an excellent starting manual.

kc66

watty wrote: »

8 hrs x 4 = 24hr.

Watty.. you haven't a clue, do you?

Tony

kc66 wrote: »

Watty.. you haven't a clue, do you?

You win the prize for helpful post of the day.

watty

watty wrote: »

Doesn't seem pricey to me. But it depends on Course content, size of groups, what mix of lecture, tutorial, lab and outdoor practical.

Then there is equipment, Insurance etc..

assume 8 hrs x 4 = 24hr.
Just hiring a Cheap professional would be €1440, ex overheads, premises, insurance, coffee and biscuits.

obviously some one with Garage and only qualified to drill holes would be cheaper.

Out of coffee error.

Should be 32 hrs Still well over €1400 Eur

Or... maybe the expert only does 6 hrs a day (lunch, coffee breaks etc) not full 8 hr days ...

Not sure what I was thinking then.

watty

Nehaxak wrote: »

That all seems extremely expensive, especially considering installing basic satellite dishes is not exactly rocket science but common sense, a bit of practical knowledge, how to use your spectrum analyser or simple sat finder and some manual labour.

Smart people can self teach*. There are a lot of free resources.

But without a proper course you never know what it is you don't know.

If you want to "fault find", recognise dodgy materials, do the job professionally, there is more to it than you think.

An old Bench analogue Spectrum analyser is very confusing to someone that has never used it and is not an actual Graduate Engineer. But what it shows is close to reality.

A portable Installer's spectrum analyser is much easier to use. Simple menus etc. But without proper RF knowledge and training (or a lot of self study on Internet and experimenting) it can easily mislead you.

It's not rocket science. But there is considerable advantage to a structured course and knowing a goodly amount of RF and Communications theory.

*

"You could teach yourself witchcraft. But both the teacher and pupil have to be the right kind of person"

Terry Pratchett, "Lords and Ladies". RF aspects of electronics is suspiciously regarded as involving "magic" by non-RF Engineers.
http://michaelgellis.tripod.com/magict.html

kc66

Tony wrote: »

You win the prize for helpful post of the day.

And you win the prize for best sense of humour. I know what Watty is capable of.

ISAA

All,

ISAA will be having training courses in Jan?feb. These will have basic training for aerial/satellite installations, with basic radio communications principles.

Once the interested business passes the course, they will be members of the ISAA.

We are in the process of putting the training manuals together at the moment.

And before anyone asked I have proper trainners, teachers in place for this course.

Future information will be available after Christmas.


We are taking interested parties details at the moment.

gerryw@isaa.tv or PM me.


Regards,

Gerry

whatsamsn

So is there any reasonable costing course out there?

1400 euro for 4 days work is just too much. You could probably accept it if it was 4 weeks training at least or something. But for 4 days? Too much of a rip off.

What it seems like anyways.

watty

Depends on if you want to be a real installer or just a Sierra Hole Driller.

Nehaxak

http://www.tooway-belgie.be/Tooway%20Ka%20v4.6-EN.pdf

^^ There's the installation manual for the EutelSat Tooway KA based system.

I have printed manuals for their other stuff but am sure I have PDF's of same around also that their chief engineer sent me after training, just have to dig them out of old emails if I can find them, was a good few years ago at this stage.

As you can see, it's not an awful lot involved and similar type of KA systems will be used by Saorsat in the near future (if all goes to plan) so the TooWay manual is a good starting point to see what's involved.

watty

That tells you about the Tooway Terminal.

It's not a Tutorial on how to be an expert Sat installer.

NewHillel

whatsamsn wrote: »

So is there any reasonable costing course out there?

1400 euro for 4 days work is just too much. You could probably accept it if it was 4 weeks training at least or something. But for 4 days? Too much of a rip off.

It all depends on the type of installations you want to do. If you are aiming at the domestic market, i.e. Sky, Freesat/Free-to-Air/Saorsat, the basic installation is straightforward. There is no reason why you couldn't do this from googling and a good book. The main issue with domestic installations is Health and Safety, particularly working at heights, and Insurance. For such basic training €1400 is very high.

For commercial installations and VSAT, €1400 is actually reasonable. However, unless you have a technical background, I seriously question whether four days are sufficient. (TBH, I would expect anyone doing such work to be a qualified technician, electrician, or professional engineer.)

(Before shelling out anything close to €1400 check the background of the training company and the qualifications of the trainer.)

watty

NewHillel wrote: »

It all depends on the type of installations you want to do. If you are aiming at the domestic market, i.e. Sky, Freesat/Free-to-Air/Saorsat, the basic installation is straightforward. There is no reason why you couldn't do this from googling and a good book. The main issue with domestic installations[*] is Health and Safety, particularly working at heights, and Insurance. For such basic training €1400 is very high.

Mostly true... Goat bit...

But

If you don't have RF theory background, then the "basic" won't help when something doesn't work properly.
Installing absolutely standard Freesat/Sky is one thing, Multifeed is a bit more.

Distribution systems or multi-dwelling a big step up.

Faultfinding a very big step up.


[*] And knowing where to run wires/drill holes. Gerry has a nice Rogues' Gallery of jobs done by people then no longer doing them

St Senan

NewHillel wrote: »

(Before shelling out anything close to €1400 check the background of the training company and the qualifications of the trainer.)

Agreed. Check out the qualifications of the Satellite Dish installation trainers here http://www.chevrontraining.ie/docdownloads/marketing/satellite-tv-installer.pdf

ISAA

scaller wrote: »

Agreed. Check out the qualifications of the Satellite Dish installation trainers here http://www.chevrontraining.ie/docdownloads/marketing/satellite-tv-installer.pdf

says a lot about the above company :


Quote :
trainers are highly qualified and experienced plumbers

watty

scaller wrote: »

Agreed. Check out the qualifications of the Satellite Dish installation trainers here http://www.chevrontraining.ie/docdownloads/marketing/satellite-tv-installer.pdf

trainers are highly qualified and experienced plumbers

I've heard Microwave installs described as plumbing. But that's a bit mad.

Maybe they edited a template or another training package. :eek:

Nehaxak

watty wrote: »

That tells you about the Tooway Terminal.
It's not a Tutorial on how to be an expert Sat installer.

Never said it was. :rolleyes:

Nehaxak

watty wrote: »

If you want to "fault find", recognise dodgy materials, do the job professionally, there is more to it than you think.

I know a lot more than you think I don't, however there's no point over-complicating something which is essentially simple.
Installing basic Satellite for TV reception requires nothing more than a brain, common sense, a head for heights at times and a willingness to get it done proper, neat, tidy, safe and sound - without drilling holes in stupid places and having cable run down the middle of a wall or something (common sense).

There's no point trying to talk up simple satellite TV installations when even old grannies are going up ladders to install it themselves these days.

That said, it would be great for proper internationally recognised GVF and EutelSat (and possibly Astra if they're at all bothered, I know IntelSat aren't arsed anyway) accredited VSAT training made available in Ireland (not feckin' FETAC/FÁS conjobs!)
It's not a hard thing to set up and there's already a few known and trusted installers even on ISAA's site in Ireland, who could be involved and become VSAT trainers themselves, once they've trained up.
At least then, asking for over a grand for training might at least be worthwhile when proper recognised qualification/certification is given afterwards, a bit of paper to say you at least have undergone proper certified training, rather than something from Fetac - which nobody outside whoever's brother/uncle/cousin from FF who is running the company really cares about (wild guess there but I reckon I'd not be far off the mark either).

There's no harm in learning the RF theory behind it all and in practice, but it's not essential to know the intricacies beforehand nor does it justify bumping up the cost of the course to try and be thought about it in a couple days when you'd probably be better reading a book(s) on the matter(s) anyway.
Safety training, grand, no problem - so long as it's not just another load of typical health and safety crap being thought at any number of places just to get your safe pass - it needs to be tailored specifically and please emphasise the need for non slip industrial boots rather than wearing runners on a job ffs *cough* Sierra *cough*
For €1,400 - I'd nearly be half expecting it also came with one of these included in the price at the end of the course :pac: http://www.horizonhge.com/product_sheets/hdstm.pdf

watty

Nehaxak wrote: »

I know a lot more than you think I don't, however there's no point over-complicating something which is essentially simple.
Installing basic Satellite for TV reception requires nothing more than a brain, common sense, a head for heights at times and a willingness to get it done proper, neat, tidy, safe and sound - without drilling holes in stupid places and having cable run down the middle of a wall or something (common sense).

There's no point trying to talk up simple satellite TV installations when even old grannies are going up ladders to install it themselves these days.

All that only applies if it works as expected. It's the difference between being able to plug in a PC that is new and sort it out if it's mysteriously slow (straight out of box or not).

If you are doing one DIY install and you can self study, then it can be simple.

Not everyone can self study, and the issue is you don't know what it is you don't know.
If doing installs everyday you need the background technical expertise or else some installs will be shoddy and you won't know this. Also some won't work as expected and you will waste too much time figuring out why.

The particular course might be rubbish.
4 Days might be too long, though €350 a day for ANY kind of quality training in any subject in small group with 1:1 is not excessively expensive.

But for many people it's misleading to suggest you can be expert by some DIY and reading up off Internet.

Of course this country is full of poor courses and shoddy Tradesmen so I'm not surprised at scepticism about a €1400 course.

I'm not suggesting that particular course is worth it. I'm arguing that the principle of a Well designed Structured Course given by experts is important. Unless it's subsidised by someone it could be as expensive as €350 a day by the time you pay for overheads and expert persons.

Nehaxak

But for many people it's misleading to suggest you can be expert by some DIY and reading up off Internet.

You keep bringing up the word expert, I never said expert and to be perfectly honest, anyone that does call themselves an "expert" is usually full of their own crap and a waffler so it doesn't bode well with me to even bother to suggest the use of the word, especially so in Ireland.

If the course is more than just Sat TV installation and reception and includes VSAT installation training, theory and the different variations of tech that goes with it, along with being GVF accredited and include training, exams and certification from same - then yeah, fine, a price tag of that nature would be justified.
Otherwise it's just another rip of Ireland jobby, talked up to high heaven by more waffling "experts" to somehow justify the price being charged.

Anyway, I've made my point and stand over it, €1,400 or anywhere near that is an absolute disgrace if all you're getting at the end of the day is just Sat TV reception/installation training.
Whoop de doo, they might show you how to run cables, drill holes and you'll get a safety pass too :rolleyes: Don't forget the plumbing !

Tony

I'd favour something more like this http://www.cai.org.uk/t/training-courses/55-basic-radio-and-tv-aerial-installation-techniques

watty

That's a good value basic course.

whatsamsn

So england has better courses?

Tony

At presnt yes the UK and the rest of the EU are better set up with regard to training but the ISAA is working hard to change that

whatsamsn wrote: »

So england has better courses?

ISAA

All,

Dates and venue will be stated from mid Jan "weather permitting".

We have had a great Interested, and we have a number of excellent teachers/trainners on board.

Any new Business/Companies, wanting to know how to be apart of the ISAA, and doing correct DTT/Satellite installations the profesional way, contact us,

Regards,

Gerry

Liameter

If you want "cheap" without moving from the comfort of your own computer desk, see http://www.satcure.com/course.htm