Does belief in Santa sow the seeds for later rejection of God?

Jester Minute

I've wondered about this for a while.

On the one hand, I believed in Santa, I enjoyed the magic of Christmas and so forth, and I think it did me no harm, but on the other hand, I wonder is it potentially harmful or does it damage the credibility of the faith for children when they get older. The child may think, my parents lied about Santa. When the child finds out, they might question what else the parents have lied about, perhaps God?

I also wonder about the ethics of it. The whole pressure on parents to provide a perfect Christmas for the kids because Santa knows no financial worries, the sky is the limit. And also, the fact that parents have to lie to their kids, even if it is a 'nice' lie. If kids knew it was the parent's efforts, perhaps Christmas could be a better time to learn about generosity and love in a more reasonable and realistic fashion, rather than the usual way, which involves illusion and falsehood.

Let me know what you think.

A little story follows which inspired this thread:

Argentine archbishop slams Santa Claus
(AFP) – 1 day ago

BUENOS AIRES — A Roman Catholic archbishop surprised his parishioners in Argentina by telling the children that Santa Claus was not real, but instead a commercialized symbol of Christmas.

"That's not Christmas," Archbishop Fabriciano Sigampa of the northern city of Resistencia said in mass, insisting that children should not confuse celebrating the birth of Christ "with a fat man dressed in red."

Sigampa's ire was aroused by plans for a snow covered cabin in the city's main square where a Father Christmas figure would hear children's wishes and receive donated toys to be given out to poor children.

"Surely, in the coming days there will be a deluge of advertisements after they inaugurate the house where a fat man dressed in red lives. And we should not confuse, we should not confuse Christmas with that."

He said children "should know that, in reality, the gifts come from the efforts of their parents and with the help of Jesus."

monosharp

Jester Minute wrote: »

I also wonder about the ethics of it. The whole pressure on parents to provide a perfect Christmas for the kids because Santa knows no financial worries, the sky is the limit. And also, the fact that parents have to lie to their kids, even if it is a 'nice' lie.

What lie ? Just because you don't believe in Santa doesn't mean he doesn't exist. How can you prove he doesn't exist ?

What about the good moral teaching that children get from Santa ? Think about all the children who would have no morals if they didn't believe that Santa Claus was watching them.

Helix

monosharp wrote: »

Think about all the children who would have no morals if they didn't believe that Santa Claus was watching them.

thats a ridiculous statement

just like belief in religion, belief in santa does not give kids morals. how theyre raised by their parents, being taught to respect others, and their immediate family and friends will foster their morals

just like everyone else

3rdDegree

do you know what irony is?

Zombrex

Jester Minute wrote: »

When the child finds out, they might question what else the parents have lied about, perhaps God?

Isn't that a good thing, don't you want children as they get older to question their parents belief and think "Do I believe this because it is true or just because my parents told me it was?"

antiskeptic

Jester Minute wrote: »

On the one hand, I believed in Santa, I enjoyed the magic of Christmas and so forth, and I think it did me no harm, but on the other hand, I wonder is it potentially harmful or does it damage the credibility of the faith for children when they get older. The child may think, my parents lied about Santa. When the child finds out, they might question what else the parents have lied about, perhaps God?

Let me know what you think.

I agree with Wicknight. If your faith in God is based on what your parents tell you then it's hardly a faith worth having. That vast numbers of Irish people who tick "Catholic" on a census form appear to have that kind of faith doesn't make it worthwhile.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

I agree with Wicknight.

Stop it, you are ruining my credibility. :P

neuro-praxis

Santa is a bit of fun. If you want to incorporate it into your family life: do. If you don't: don't.

Christian belief is something that is only truly and deeply understood on any real level as an adult anyway. As a child, the belief is simplistic and inherited.

I don't believe that one has any impact on the other.

I was raised in a non-Christian home and am an adult convert to Christianity. I enjoyed Santa as a child and did not feel betrayed by my parents when I realised the truth. However many of my Christian friends who were raised in staunch Christian homes feel sad about a lot of things that they missed out on from wider culture, like Santa, music and cinema, when they were growing up.

Sometimes we can take things too seriously. Christians are called to live simply, kindly, justly and humbly with their God, committed to a life of flourishing. Engaging in fairy tales or childhood fantasies is not precluded by that. If it was, surely we'd be banning fiction too?

JimiTime

Jester Minute wrote: »

I've wondered about this for a while.

On the one hand, I believed in Santa, I enjoyed the magic of Christmas and so forth, and I think it did me no harm, but on the other hand, I wonder is it potentially harmful or does it damage the credibility of the faith for children when they get older. The child may think, my parents lied about Santa. When the child finds out, they might question what else the parents have lied about, perhaps God?

ha ha. Snap! As a man recently blessed with a first born, myself and my wife were discussing this very topic the other night:) I don't think it would be damaging to their potential faith, but I must say I am uncomfortable with it.

I also wonder about the ethics of it. The whole pressure on parents to provide a perfect Christmas for the kids because Santa knows no financial worries, the sky is the limit. And also, the fact that parents have to lie to their kids, even if it is a 'nice' lie. If kids knew it was the parent's efforts, perhaps Christmas could be a better time to learn about generosity and love in a more reasonable and realistic fashion, rather than the usual way, which involves illusion and falsehood.

Let me know what you think.

I'd tend to agree with that.

Interesting side note about the whole 'lying' thing. I would ask what defines a lie? Is it simply telling an untruth knowing it is an untruth? Or is it about the intent behind the untruth being malicious etc?

In my limited wisdom, not telling the truth is wrong. However, you can think of circumstances where it would seem to be right. Like not telling the SS that you were hiding Jews in your attic etc. I think of Rahab hiding the Israelite spies and lying to the officers about their whereabouts. She was justified by her Faith, but it was never said that the act of lying was right. Her heart, her motives is what defined her righteous. Its an interesting question.

PDN

I think it does no harm if you make clear to kids that Santa is just a story, no more real than the Power Rangers, Aladdin, or any other cartoon character. It also helps if, from an early age, you tell the kids the story of St. Nicholas who gave three bags of gold to a merchant so he would not sell his daughters into slavery. Legends say these bags were deposited through the chimney.

If you really want to instill some culture into your little brats then skip buying them an X-Box and take them to Florence for a weekend so they can see Lorenzetti's wonderful rendition of the story:

JimiTime

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Engaging in fairy tales or childhood fantasies is not precluded by that. If it was, surely we'd be banning fiction too?

The obvious difference I can see here, is that a child usually knows that fiction is fiction. You read them a story or whatever. Whereas with something like Santa, you present the fiction as truth.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I think it does no harm if you make clear to kids that Santa is just a story,

I think thats the question though. The story of Santa is presented as real to most children. The question being posited is if this is a bad thing.

Nice story about St Nicholas btw. Didn't know that.

nozzferrahhtoo

I have often wondered the complete opposite to the OP, but it was merely wondering and I have done nor am aware of any research into it. This post should be seen as nothing more than thinking out loud.

So many parents tie influencing Children’s behaviour to the idea of rewards and punishments from Santa. I wonder if from an early age we are therefore establishing in the child’s mind that moral action should be connected with the judgements of an unseen entity that is always watching and knows what you do and think.

Later in life there are many theists (I am not brushing all with the same brush, but it is certainly enough to appear significant) who like the joke by monosharp in post #2 actually do push the argument of “how can we be good without god?” and again for some moral action is connected with the judgements of an unseen entity that is always watching and knows what you do and think.

Tongue in cheek people have spewed the throw away comment “God is just Santa for adults” but can we dismiss this as being totally throw away? Rather than sowing the seeds for later rejection, are we sowing seeds that create a vacuum when Santa is removed but religions are all too willing to fill.

However I think when telling children that Santa is not real later in their lives, that we should make a point of exploring with them why they thought he was and show them how easily duped one can be by others claiming there exists invisible entities. It should be used as a good exercise in critical thought and if Santa can be used as a form of immunization to later charlatans then it could only be a good thing.

neuro-praxis

JimiTime wrote: »

The obvious difference I can see here, is that a child usually knows that fiction is fiction. You read them a story or whatever. Whereas with something like Santa, you present the fiction as truth.

There is no subtlety here. When we read stories to our children, we do not begin them with the warning, "Now remember: this is not real."

We simply do not do this, because we desire for them to enter into the story with their imaginations.

JimiTime

neuro-praxis wrote: »

There is no subtlety here. When we read stories to our children, we do not begin them with the warning, "Now remember: this is not real."

We simply do not do this, because we desire for them to enter into the story with their imaginations.

Are you comparing the reading of stories to children with how a parent goes about setting up the Santa illusion?

I personally don't remember how I knew that stories were just stories, but I never believed Hansel and Gretel to be real, or Superman etc. The Santa thing is based on convincing a child that the character in question is real, and perpetuating it with illusion. Again, I'm not trying to argue the rights or wrongs with you, but the comparison is a non runner IMO.

antiskeptic

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Christian belief is something that is only truly and deeply understood on any real level as an adult anyway. As a child, the belief is simplistic and inherited.

I wouldn't agree (anymore). My wife converted at age 11. She remembers getting angry at her Protestant confirmation because no gospel was preached leading up to it.

JimiTime

antiskeptic wrote: »

I wouldn't agree (anymore). My wife converted at age 11. She remembers getting angry at her Protestant confirmation because no gospel was preached leading up to it.

To follow that point, I would say that rather than our faith maturing etc as we grow, it can actually be the opposite. We can end up complicating things. The simplicity and honesty of child like faith is, IMO, something to aspire to rather than cast aside.

Certainly as adults, we get more theological and cerebral about things, and can reason our faith and understand it on a more intellectual level etc. However, a child can be meek, trust in God, and follow him. THAT is a Christian IMO. I had more faith in my childhood than I do now. I know alot more about my faith etc, but that unquestionable trust I had in God is not like it was when I was a child.

antiskeptic

JimiTime wrote: »

To follow that point, I would say that rather than our faith maturing etc as we grow, it can actually be the opposite. We can end up complicating things. The simplicity and honesty of child like faith is, IMO, something to aspire to rather than cast aside.

Very true. My wifes faith, whilst deeply relational, still has the childlike quality it must have had at the time it was formed.

Certainly as adults, we get more theological and cerebral about things, and can reason our faith and understand it on a more intellectual level etc. However, a child can be meek, trust in God, and follow him. THAT is a Christian IMO. I had more faith in my childhood than I do now. I know alot more about my faith etc, but that unquestionable trust I had in God is not like it was when I was a child.

I imagine it's possible to return to that quality - given the upsidedown nature of the kingdom of God. We're meant to be growing up to be children.

JimiTime

antiskeptic wrote: »

Very true. My wifes faith, whilst deeply relational, still has the childlike quality it must have had at the time it was formed.

A wonderful blessing.

I imagine it's possible to return to that quality

I completely agree.

Manach

Growing up I received the usual Christmas presents, but these were directly from my parents. No pretence was made that Santa was anything but a fictional character. I reckon this made me slightly more realistic about life but perhaps a tad wistful as well.

neuro-praxis

JimiTime I understand your argument but I suppose what I am suggesting is that Santa is as much a part of our cultural narrative as Hansel and Gretal or Superman.

krudler

JimiTime wrote: »

Are you comparing the reading of stories to children with how a parent goes about setting up the Santa illusion?

Is anyone else really, really hoping this is the title of Dawkin's next book?

krudler

op, all this ho ho ho'ing malarkey is clearly part of some demonic plan, think about it, Santa is just a poorly disguised anagram of Satan. He's also big and red, coincidence? hardly.

alex73

Its well know the the Current image of Santa (White Beard red Dress) is a Marketing tool that Coca Cola used and it stuck.

Saint Nicholas was a real person, he saints day is 6th of Dec and in many countries its celebrated with the giving of gifts.

The modern north-pole-red-dress-white-beard fairy tale has nothing to do with Cristian Christmas.

I never tell my kids the tale, but I am sensitive to the other parents.

But its become so ridiculous to a point and every year more commercialized.

Onesimus

Santa isn't real? *sniffle* Thanks for ruining my Christmas ya buncha grinches .....:(

Tar.Aldarion

Well I stopped beleiving in god before santa, because one was more believable than the other but yes I think it might. It teaches you that those who are bringing you up are not always 'right'/ telling the truth or whatever. It teaches you to question your beliefs, and not to just hold them because you were taught and conditioned into them.

Onesimus

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Well I stopped beleiving in god before santa, because one was more believable than the other but yes I think it might. It teaches you that those who are bringing you up are not always 'right'/ telling the truth or whatever. It teaches you to question your beliefs, and not to just hold them because you were taught and conditioned into them.

What about the belief of conditioning a child to question belief in God? Shouldnt that be in itself a conditioning to be questioned?

krudler

Onesimus wrote: »

What about the belief of conditioning a child to question belief in God? Shouldnt that be in itself a conditioning to be questioned?

No, because questioning isnt an absolute, its just making your own mind up.

Onesimus

krudler wrote: »

No, because questioning isnt an absolute, its just making your own mind up.

How can a child make his/her own mind up though when his parents are conditioning him/her into questioning Gods existence, or lets say, telling them that God does not exist?

Also, if the parent sees the child struggling to make the choice between putting his/her hand in the fire or into cold water, and the parent refuses to allow the child to make his/her own mind up and decides for the child, would this be seen as wrong? preventing the child from doing such things?

Having the belief that the child should just make their own mind up with regards to beliefs seems fallacious when it comes to watching them decide for themselves whether or not they ''believe'' that jumping from a bridge is the best course of action for them.

Tabnabs

I'm always intrigued by the acceptance of Santa Claus by conservative christians. The figure has many roots in Saami culture and equates closely to a Saami shaman. I don't think there are many flying reindeer in Turkey

krudler

Onesimus wrote: »

How can a child make his/her own mind up though when his parents are conditioning him/her into questioning Gods existence, or lets say, telling them that God does not exist?

Also, if the parent sees the child struggling to make the choice between putting his/her hand in the fire or into cold water, and the parent refuses to allow the child to make his/her own mind up and decides for the child, would this be seen as wrong? preventing the child from doing such things?

Having the belief that the child should just make their own mind up with regards to beliefs seems fallacious when it comes to watching them decide for themselves whether or not they ''believe'' that jumping from a bridge is the best course of action for them.

Thats just common sense as a parent, its not even comparable

Onesimus

krudler wrote: »

Thats just common sense as a parent, its not even comparable

Child: Dad I'm going to jump from this bridge because I believe that it is the best course of action for me.

Father: Ok Son, its your belief and it is important I let you make your own mind up.

( Long live love :rolleyes: )

krudler

Onesimus wrote: »

Child: Dad I'm going to jump from this bridge because I believe that it is the best course of action for me.

Father: Ok Son, its your belief and it is important I let you make your own mind up.

( Long live love :rolleyes: )

Yeah becuase a child wanting to jump off a bridge is exactly the same as teaching them to question the idea a being created the universe.

awesome logic, well done.

Onesimus

krudler wrote: »

Yeah becuase a child wanting to jump off a bridge is exactly the same as teaching them to question the idea a being created the universe.

awesome logic, well done.

What if the child believes in a being that created the universe and is one that condones the sacrifice of jumping oneself off a bridge? but sure hey we must let the child make his/her own mind up when it comes to deciding what is best for him/her right? according to the logic of secularists.

wonderfulname

I'm an atheist (just thought I'd put that out there - always do on this forum), but as a child I always thought the whole Santa thing was a bit suspicious so I researched him. I found out about saint Nicholas, specifically this story;

Wikipedia wrote:

However, in his most famous exploit,[13] a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment would have to become prostitutes. Hearing of the poor man's plight, Nicholas decided to help him but being too modest to help the man in public (or to save the man the humiliation of accepting charity), he went to his house under the cover of night and threw three purses (one for each daughter) filled with gold coins through the window opening into the man's house.
One version has him throwing one purse for three consecutive nights. Another has him throw the purses over a period of three years, each time the night before one of the daughters comes "of age". Invariably, the third time the father lies in wait, trying to discover the identity of their benefactor. In one version the father confronts the saint, only to have Saint Nicholas say it is not him he should thank, but God alone. In another version, Nicholas learns of the poor man's plan and drops the third bag down the chimney instead; a variant holds that the daughter had washed her stockings that evening and hung them over the embers to dry, and that the bag of gold fell into the stocking.

And hence I had religious reasoning for the tradition of Santa, now I found all that a bit suspect too but that's not what this discussion is about, from then on I always wondered why catholic parents don't seem to share that story with their kids. Its a great story for them, it ties all the aspects of Christmas together in a religious sense and brings the "true meaning of Christmas" back into the picture.

Also any smart kid will understand Santa is a tradition, not a lie.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Onesimus wrote: »

What if the child believes in a being that created the universe and is one that condones the sacrifice of jumping oneself off a bridge?

He'd be what i'd call a 'mentally challenged' child.

Onesimus wrote: »

but sure hey we must let the child make his/her own mind up when it comes to deciding what is best for him/her right? according to the logic of secularists.

Yes. Of course. What alternative do you suggest? Lets remind ourselves that we're talking about belief in a super natural being here. Please no mention of jumping of cliffs or playing with the traffic

lmaopml

PDN wrote: »

I think it does no harm if you make clear to kids that Santa is just a story, no more real than the Power Rangers, Aladdin, or any other cartoon character. It also helps if, from an early age, you tell the kids the story of St. Nicholas who gave three bags of gold to a merchant so he would not sell his daughters into slavery. Legends say these bags were deposited through the chimney.

If you really want to instill some culture into your little brats then skip buying them an X-Box and take them to Florence for a weekend so they can see Lorenzetti's wonderful rendition of the story:

PDN, good post. That's pretty much what I do with my children...I've told them ( well my 'five' year old..lol..the two year old can't speak yet..) about St. Nicholas and given them the background of why and how we celebrate Christmas, with a focus on the goodwill 'value' behind the celebration.

Rather than fill him in on Santa not being the real deal ( actually my husband is one of millions of very real 'Santas' to my boys every year ), I await his questions.....Not a lie exactly, just let him enjoy the magic as a child..

It's a celebration of LOTS of things in our home. The birth of Christ first and foremost, midnight mass is something really special..( and yes, before anybody posts about it not being the exact date - most of us already know that..), the charity of St. Nicholas, and just celebrating time-out to be a family, with nowhere to rush about and nothing to do but be together and have some fun..

In the school my little boy attends they do a really good job of getting 'away' from the commercialised concept without being 'dour' and clinical..

He's a shepherd in his first play on Tuesday.....The drama is a delight and the nightmare before Christmas all rolled into one...

krudler

Onesimus wrote: »

What if the child believes in a being that created the universe and is one that condones the sacrifice of jumping oneself off a bridge? but sure hey we must let the child make his/her own mind up when it comes to deciding what is best for him/her right? according to the logic of secularists.

If clutching at straws was a sport, you my friend would be heavyweight champion of the world, bravo.