Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

sub3wannabe

Anyone familiar with the book Advanced Marathoning? 18 week programs in this book, would this rough ratio between weekly millage and target time be accurate?

Chapter:8 88km peak - 3:30 -4:00
Chapter:9 113km peak -3:30 - 3:00
Chapter:10 137km peak - 3:00 - 2:30
Chapter:11 137km plus 2:30 -2:XX


Would that be the rough ball park?

Followed C9 for my 2:59 in DCM in October, want to attempt sub 2:50 in Belfast in May. Should I repeat C9 with just higher intensity or would I need to step up to C10?

Thanks in advance!

ThePiedPiper

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Great running! What was your weekly milige in the successful 2:50 campaign mate?

I peaked 4 months out with a couple of 80ish mile weeks, but generally 60 or so after that, never under 50.. I took a heavily based marathon paced approach from a long way out.. My base level was a 1:22 half seven months out..

sub3wannabe

RunForestRun wrote: »

I peaked 4 months out with a couple of 80ish mile weeks, but generally 60 or so after that, never under 50.. I took a heavily based marathon paced approach from a long way out.. My base level was a 1:22 half seven months out..

So you'd advise C10 of the book I have? I feel like a bit of a mug running an extra 15 miles a week if as some posters claim sub2:50 can be done at 70mpw!

Krusty_Clown

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Do you mind me asking you what your peak weekly milage was when you ran 2:48:12? Do you think id need to step up to the 85miles per week program in AM2 to have a realistic shot? iyo what target time would you advise, is the risk of injury/burnout trying to shave 10minutes off in 6 months too high?

If I remember correctly, the first time I ran 2:48, I maxed out at about 70-75 miles per week. The second time, I was actually shooting for 2:42 (very aspirational!) so upped my running to 85 miles per week. I maxed out at 100mpw for the two 2:38s, but probably averaged around 85-90mpw.

Everybody's different. You need to figure out what works for you. Your table of chapters/target times isn't meaningful. There is no specific correlation between mileage and times. There is only individual stimulus and how you react to it. Don't make the assumption that the key to running faster times is reading/following a different chapter of a book or having a coach prescribe a set of training. Find out what works for you and do it.

ThePiedPiper

I strongly believe it takes time and a bit of trial and error to find the approach that best works for you. I ran a poor 3:05 off 80-100 miles per week back in 08, but have found in past couple of years that low intensity high mileage 3-4 months out from marathon, followed by average of 65 mpw is what works for me.

rom

I ran 3:04 avg 41 miles a week in the 18 week build up. Max was 55 (most under 50 with no injury/time off). Need to get off my a$$.

jfh

drquirky wrote: »

I think it is different for everyone- I recently ran 2:50:xx in Budapest off max 65/70 mpw- hard to have a one size fits all approach

hi sub3wannabe, agree with this, prob not the answer you looking for. there's no one magic formula, sure there's some that are safer bets than other's.
maybe join a club or find runners with similiar goal.

my plan incl a lot of hill & trail running which really is not that specific to marathon training, combined with one speed session & a MP session.
both milage & MP were on the low side, avg mileage 56, longest MP 10 miles.
arrived fresh & completed target sub 2:50

i hope to knock another few minutes of it but i'll be focusing on bringing down the times in the 10k's first, perhaps take a break from the marathon's & do this?

sub3wannabe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If I remember correctly, the first time I ran 2:48, I maxed out at about 70-75 miles per week. The second time, I was actually shooting for 2:42 (very aspirational!) so upped my running to 85 miles per week. I maxed out at 100mpw for the two 2:38s, but probably averaged around 85-90mpw.

Everybody's different. You need to figure out what works for you. Your table of chapters/target times isn't meaningful. There is no specific correlation between mileage and times. There is only individual stimulus and how you react to it. Don't make the assumption that the key to running faster times is reading/following a different chapter of a book or having a coach prescribe a set of training. Find out what works for you and do it.

Krusty knows where im at and seems to have an understanding of the book im working off. I know it seems like im just looking for the magic formula and that I should really go on feel and stuff like that, it's just that im still very much a green horn when it comes to running, never been a member of any clubs etc so I fear If I just start doing what I think feels right I may stray off in the wrong direction. The books ive read like Lore of Running and Advanced Marathoning really enlightened me and the programmes give me that craved structure!

Anyway Krusty mate, you're a great asset to the forum and as a long term lurker have gained greatly from reading your posts. If you ran 2:50 off a peak 70mpw then that's good enough for me. I'm going to repeat Chapter 9 Advanced Marathoning programme with the required upping in intensity unless you think that isn't sufficient.

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts everyone, if its proved one thing is there's defiantly more that one way to skin a cat

Krusty_Clown

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Anyway Krusty mate, you're a great asset to the forum and as a long term lurker have gained greatly from reading your posts. If you ran 2:50 off a peak 70mpw then that's good enough for me. I'm going to repeat Chapter 9 Advanced Marathoning programme with the required upping in intensity unless you think that isn't sufficient.

Hi sub-3, I had the added advantage of coming from a 2:55 marathon when I was shooting for 2:48, so didn't have quite the gap in improvement you are looking for. If you think your body (and schedule!) will take the extra punishment, I'd certainly be leaning towards adding some extra mileage, so if you're stuck on the P&D programs, why not shoot for the next more challenging schedule in the book? Then based on how you perform this time around, adjust your strategy for next time.

sub3wannabe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi sub-3, I had the added advantage of coming from a 2:55 marathon when I was shooting for 2:48, so didn't have quite the gap in improvement you are looking for. If you think your body (and schedule!) will take the extra punishment, I'd certainly be leaning towards adding some extra mileage, so if you're stuck on the P&D programs, why not shoot for the next more challenging schedule in the book? Then based on how you perform this time around, adjust your strategy for next time.

Hey. I am fundamentally lazy though and want the best results with the minimum of effort. If I thought sub 2:50 on a P&D 70mpw could be done then why would I put myself through all the stress of doing 18 weeks of 15mpw extra! I do feel like im falling between two stools at this time bracket. I mean, I have no doubt that if and when I attempt sub 2:40 id be no doubt moving up to the next programe, 85mpw

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Hey. I am fundamentally lazy though and want the best results with the minimum of effort. If I thought sub 2:50 on a P&D 70mpw could be done then why would I put myself through all the stress of doing 18 weeks of 15mpw extra! I do feel like im falling between two stools at this time bracket. I mean, I have no doubt that if and when I attempt sub 2:40 id be no doubt moving up to the next programe, 85mpw

You kinda picked the wrong sport.

dublin runner

Minimum of effort? Hmmm....

Instead of running 26.2 miles in sub 2.50 why not drive it or better still, just get a taxi? A goal like that takes dedication, time, maximum effort and persistence not minimal effort.

ThePiedPiper

Yeah, seriously, if you're really intent on running sub 2:50, your attitude and commitment are way more important than which chapter of a book you're reading.. Dropping from 3:00:20 took me 10 marathons, 5 years, about 8,000 miles.. I'm not saying I was always completely committed or didn't make a few mistakes along the way but you have to be prepared to put in the work and possibly months or years of positive commitment..

sub3wannabe

dublin runner wrote: »

Minimum of effort? Hmmm....

Instead of running 26.2 miles in sub 2.50 why not drive it or better still, just get a taxi? A goal like that takes dedication, time, maximum effort and persistence not minimal effort.

I was sorta being flippant. Obv having ran successfully a 2:59:26 in Dublin this year off the back of 22 weeks hard graft I am aware it takes a serious comitment but theres also a oportunity cost involved and if I could run sub 2:50 off 15 miles per week less and spend those extra hours doing other things like spending time with friends and family then why wouldn't I?

rom

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I was sorta being flippant. Obv having ran successfully a 2:59:26 in Dublin this year off the back of 22 weeks hard graft I am aware it takes a serious comitment but theres also a oportunity cost involved and if I could run sub 2:50 off 15 miles per week less and spend those extra hours doing other things like spending time with friends and family then why wouldn't I?

It simple, if you don't "like" running why do it? Life is too short. If you like what your doing you don't ever need motivation to do more of it.

sub3wannabe

rom wrote: »

It simple, if you don't "like" running why do it? Life is too short. If you like what your doing you don't ever need motivation to do more of it.

Who said I don't like it? Just want to achieve the goal as efficiently as possible!

dublin runner

If you want to train with maxium efficency then I fully agree but saying something like 'minimum effort' doesn't really sound too great!

Getting back to your question, using a generic plan is well and good but you must find what works for you rather than following it blindly. Personally, I doubt running the same mileage will bring about such an desired improvement but that is just my take, especially with the marathon not too far away.

RayCun

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I was sorta being flippant. Obv having ran successfully a 2:59:26 in Dublin this year off the back of 22 weeks hard graft I am aware it takes a serious comitment but theres also a oportunity cost involved and if I could run sub 2:50 off 15 miles per week less and spend those extra hours doing other things like spending time with friends and family then why wouldn't I?

I see from your other posts you want to go on to run 2.40 and faster? Then any 'extra' running you do when training for 2.50 is in the bank for when you try to run 2.40.

sub3wannabe

RayCun wrote: »

I see from your other posts you want to go on to run 2.40 and faster? Then any 'extra' running you do when training for 2.50 is in the bank for when you try to run 2.40.

That's a very good point to be fair.

I also forgot to mention that I have started a new job on a building site so im going to be on my feet all day doing some resistance cross training, compared to my sedentary daily routine in between training for Dublin this year. I really am concerned of serious fatigue/burnout if I do step up the extra 15 miles. If that was what I thought was required though I would try and do it.

ThePiedPiper

The sheer volume of miles doesn't always make a big difference in terms of fatigue, its the intensity you're doing them at that does.. Last year, I did 320 miles training in 19 days without any fatigue issues, but I had time in my hands and pace was mostly easy.. A 65 mile week with 25-30 of them at 6:25 pace is far tougher than 115 miles miles easy running.. Each have their place and each bring huge benefit.. How you structure your plan depends as much on your life schedule as your running philosophy..

nobody told me

I'm always intrigued by this I run 70-80 miles a week thing. If you hit your key workouts in the plan what difference is it if you run 5 or 10 miles on the easy days?

RayCun

nobody told me wrote: »

I'm always intrigued by this I run 70-80 miles a week thing. If you hit your key workouts in the plan what difference is it if you run 5 or 10 miles on the easy days?

If your key workout in a week is 800s x 5k pace, what difference is it if you run 6 or 8 of them?

nobody told me

RayCun wrote: »

If your key workout in a week is 800s x 5k pace, what difference is it if you run 6 or 8 of them?

That's a key workout. I'm talking about easy/recovery days

RayCun

nobody told me wrote: »

That's a key workout. I'm talking about easy/recovery days

Doing 8, rather than 6, reps at 5k pace places your body under stress. It adapts to that stress by getting stronger, better able to run that 7th and 8th rep.
Doing 60, rather than 30 miles, in a week outside your key sessions places your body under stress. It adapts to that stress by getting stronger, better able to run those extra 30 miles.

Krusty_Clown

nobody told me wrote: »

I'm always intrigued by this I run 70-80 miles a week thing. If you hit your key workouts in the plan what difference is it if you run 5 or 10 miles on the easy days?

Those miles are about developing endurance, aerobic capacity and efficiency/economy. Elite marathoners don't just run 100-125 miles a week because they don't have day jobs. Every run should have a specific purpose.

sub3wannabe

If im thinking about running Belfast in May I'd need to be starting a 18 week programe in a fortnight. Issue is I haven't ran since the Dublin marathon itself due to picking op an injury during the race. If I do a couple of 30k weeks will I be ablle to handle a 113km high intensity sub 2:50 programe from the get go?

RayCun

sub3wannabe wrote: »

If I do a couple of 30k weeks will I be ablle to handle a 113km high intensity sub 2:50 programe from the get go?

Of course not.
The injury you picked up in DCM will be back within a month.

sub3wannabe

RayCun wrote: »

Of course not.
The injury you picked up in DCM will be back within a month.

You think so? I've kept fairly active, done a lot of cycling etc, ate well, feel in good condition but it is jumping straight into the deep end, I realize that!

blockic

sub3wannabe wrote: »

You think so? I've kept fairly active, done a lot of cycling etc, ate well, feel in good condition but it is jumping straight into the deep end, I realize that!

Eating well? That has nothing to do with being able to jump from 30km to 100+ or not. You simply have not had the training build up. You need to build up in small increments Do too much, too fast and you will be at high risk of injury. Patience, Patience, Patience.

sub3wannabe

blockic wrote: »

Eating well? That has nothing to do with being able to jump from 30km to 100+ or not. You simply have not had the training build up. You need to build up in small increments Do too much, too fast and you will be at high risk of injury. Patience, Patience, Patience.

Well im pretty sure I'l adapt better to it than had I been eating McDonalds since DCM! I was running 113k peak weeks up until DCM this year so I do have experience of that kind of milige. How much fitness do you lose from 7 or 8 weeks of inactivity?

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Well im pretty sure I'l adapt better to it than had I been eating McDonalds since DCM! I was running 113k peak weeks up until DCM this year so I do have experience of that kind of milige. How much fitness do you lose from 7 or 8 weeks of inactivity?

What are your shorter distance PB's? What makes you think you'll be able to handle sub 2:50 training when you barely broke 3 in DCM(while getting injured) and have done ZERO work/ running since?

sub3wannabe

drquirky wrote: »

What are your shorter distance PB's? What makes you think you'll be able to handle sub 2:50 training when you barely broke 3 in DCM(while getting injured) and have done ZERO work/ running since?

I don't really do much shorter distance stuff. Ran 39:46 10k with Sonia pacing the Great Pink Run but I feel I could have gone a lot faster if I had wanted too.

I'm not sure I will be able to that's why im asking! 10 minutes probably is a tad ambitious but I've always been like that. push the boundaries to the limits!

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

I don't really do much shorter distance stuff. Ran 39:46 10k with Sonia pacing the Great Pink Run but I feel I could have gone a lot faster if I had wanted too.

I'm not sure I will be able to that's why im asking! 10 minutes probably is a tad ambitious but I've always been like that. push the boundaries to the limits!

39:46 is slow, especially to be chasing sub 2:50. If you are so keen to "push the boundaries to the limit" why not run a couple 5k/10k and see what you can do at that distance. it would give you a good bench mark for setting goals going forward.

You do realise that you'd have to run that 10k PB 4 plus times to go sub 2:50 in Belfast (and you won;t have "Sonia" to pace you lol)

sub3wannabe

drquirky wrote: »

39:46 is slow, especially to be chasing sub 2:50. If you are so keen to "push the boundaries to the limit" why not run a couple 5k/10k and see what you can do at that distance. it would give you a good bench mark for setting goals going forward.

You do realise that you'd have to run that 10k PB 4 plus times to go sub 2:50 in Belfast (and you won;t have "Sonia" to pace you lol)

Piece of piss:) Sure if you had said to me at the finishing line of my first marathon (3:41:27) That one day I'd go sub 3 I would have laughed. Think anyone of us should be able to go sub 2:30 at least with the right training!

blockic

Not sure If I should leave now....or stick with it!

dublin runner

I don't think it is advisable to simply just jump into a 100k+ week after 8 weeks of inactivity. This will come back to bite you sooner or later. 18 weeks is a substantial enough training block to gradually increase the mileage and intensity without possibly doing yourself damage by beginning with a 100k+ week. While your target may be sub 2.50 your training and some goal races will realistically tell you where you stand heading into Belfast.

drquirky

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Piece of piss:) Think anyone of us should be able to go sub 2:30 at least with the right training!

I agree. But sitting on your ass for 2 months and then launching into a marathon programme where the marathon pace is your current 10k PB is not "the right training".

Learn to run properly on the shorter distances and then use the speed/base you build to hit your marathon training.

Honestly though- its seems like your mind is made up so good luck with your "plan"

ThePiedPiper

Sub3wannabe, I'm not suggesting you're a troll, but some of your posts display a confidence and lack of realism that is borderline. Talking about being able to run a sun 2:40 or sub 2:30 is absurd when you take into account your 10k time, your wanting to do things as easily as possible and injury enforced break after DCM. Of course you could theoretically run 2:50, but your pick and mix attitude to sound advice and hearing what you want to hear ain't going to help.

nobody told me

Why don't you abondon the sub 2:50 plan and aim for sub 2:30?

sub3wannabe

nobody told me wrote: »

Why don't you abondon the sub 2:50 plan and aim for sub 2:30?

I obv meant were all capable eventually. You're all very serious!

jfh

For those of us doing an autumn marathon, 24 weeks to Dublin/Frankfurt, 20 weeks to Berlin. probably a good time to decide on a schedule.
so going to kick start this tread again.

starting to build up the mileage again myself.

dublin runner

jfh wrote: »

For those of us doing an autumn marathon, 24 weeks to Dublin/Frankfurt, 20 weeks to Berlin. probably a good time to decide on a schedule.
so going to kick start this tread again.

starting to build up the mileage again myself.

24 weeks :eek:

The year really does fly. Anyone have any info on the new finish in Dublin? I think the Luas works rule out the usual finish.

ThePiedPiper

I'm hoping to run a sub-3 in Cork in a few weeks off not a huge amount of training, before settling back into higher mileage, lower intensity work in June/July. The recent 5k times would suggest I'm not a huge amount off what I was up to last summer in the run-up to 2:50, so I would hope to go into June ready to push on from there. The 2 weeks of training have been rubbish though, very inadequate for what I'd normally be up to in the run-up to a marathon. Hopefully the 2:57-9 target is soft enough for me that the quality of training won't impact!

ThePiedPiper

Well, thought I'd give this thread a bit of a bump to see how people's preparations are coming on.

I structured the summer time fairly close to how I would have wanted. I did the 2:58 marathon in Cork as planned, but probably struggled slightly in recovering from it. There was, therefore, very little quality training in June or July as a result, decent enough, if unspectacular mileage, but lacking in quality. I was in France for a couple of weeks in July, ran most days, but again, little quality. Compared to 2013 when I raced quite a lot, my only races since the Cork marathon were a 4 mile, a 5 mile and a half.

The end result of all of that I'm down by 10 seconds per mile on where I was in 2013 in all races. I probably ran the races last year a little bit fresher, but it still seems like a fair difference. On the flipside of that, however, I've been training using 6:18 as MP, and have been fairly solid on the long runs with MP sections. I've been trying to add speed to my legs, as much for cross-country and long term development as the actual marathon, so could possibly be tiring myself out a little much for racing.

At this point in time, its a bit of a conundrum. If I was to base things solely on the very limited information from 3 races, then sub 2:50 would look like a big struggle. However, if I was to base it solely on the strength of the long runs, I'd nearly fancy a shot at 2:45. The 2:58 in June on a testy enough little Cork course was fairly comfortable. Surely, the 1,000 odd miles between that and Frankfurt, the quality of some of the training, a flat course and a decent taper should take me under 2:50?

DarByrne1980

I recently did a 5k in 17 minutes and according to some books I'm reading that points towards a sub 2.50 marathon. I'm doing my first marathon in march and will train properly for it. An I mad considering going for a sub 2.50 or would I be better playing it safe and just bag a 2.5x. With work and future college commitments (may go back full time next yr) I may not have the time to really train for it in a few years so really want to have a good wack at a fast time.

RayCun

You can't really judgemarathon potential from a 5k time. Do some longer races

KielyUnusual

RunForestRun wrote: »

Well, thought I'd give this thread a bit of a bump to see how people's preparations are coming on.

I structured the summer time fairly close to how I would have wanted. I did the 2:58 marathon in Cork as planned, but probably struggled slightly in recovering from it. There was, therefore, very little quality training in June or July as a result, decent enough, if unspectacular mileage, but lacking in quality. I was in France for a couple of weeks in July, ran most days, but again, little quality. Compared to 2013 when I raced quite a lot, my only races since the Cork marathon were a 4 mile, a 5 mile and a half.

The end result of all of that I'm down by 10 seconds per mile on where I was in 2013 in all races. I probably ran the races last year a little bit fresher, but it still seems like a fair difference. On the flipside of that, however, I've been training using 6:18 as MP, and have been fairly solid on the long runs with MP sections. I've been trying to add speed to my legs, as much for cross-country and long term development as the actual marathon, so could possibly be tiring myself out a little much for racing.

At this point in time, its a bit of a conundrum. If I was to base things solely on the very limited information from 3 races, then sub 2:50 would look like a big struggle. However, if I was to base it solely on the strength of the long runs, I'd nearly fancy a shot at 2:45. The 2:58 in June on a testy enough little Cork course was fairly comfortable. Surely, the 1,000 odd miles between that and Frankfurt, the quality of some of the training, a flat course and a decent taper should take me under 2:50?

You've got a good month and I reckon the quality of your sessions over these two weeks will tell a lot. Last year, I think all the evidence points to the fact that you peaked a little too early. You've been building up nicely the last while and I think this year you might have timed it just about right. So what have you in store before you hit the taper in earnest?

DarByrne1980

RayCun wrote: »

You can't really judgemarathon potential from a 5k time. Do some longer races

yeah I plan on doing a few 10 mile and half marathons to get an idea but the 5k is all i have to go with at the minute

ThePiedPiper

KielyUnusual wrote: »

You've got a good month and I reckon the quality of your sessions over these two weeks will tell a lot. Last year, I think all the evidence points to the fact that you peaked a little too early. You've been building up nicely the last while and I think this year you might have timed it just about right. So what have you in store before you hit the taper in earnest?

Cheers KU. I think I'll probably do a MP session on Wednesday this week, possibly incorporating a few slightly faster miles. At the weekend, I'll hopefully do an easier 20 miler, without hitting MP in them. The weekend after that, it'll be the Novice Cross country 6k, but I'll likely need to fill it out to about 18-20 miles. Hopefully, I'll manage to fit in a 20 miler with 13/14 MP miles also. The only issue is that session may need to wait until just 15 days before the race, hence the reason why I'm considering trying to make hay on the day of the Novice race. Any suggestions?

dukeraoul

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

I recently did a 5k in 17 minutes and according to some books I'm reading that points towards a sub 2.50 marathon. I'm doing my first marathon in march and will train properly for it. An I mad considering going for a sub 2.50 or would I be better playing it safe and just bag a 2.5x. With work and future college commitments (may go back full time next yr) I may not have the time to really train for it in a few years so really want to have a good wack at a fast time.

Yup. You're mad targeting a sub 2:50 off a 17 min 5k in your first mara . Context my 5k pb was 15:4x and I blew up to a 3:16 in my first mara... Totally different animal. Like said above run some longer races and then think about marathon target not as easy as u might think ! Lol at "bag a 2:5 x "...