What do you think of the US Ambassador's comments about graduates in Ireland?

de Lehman Bruddars

virmilitaris wrote: »

They study maths in high school that people in Ireland would do for their final year in a maths degree.

Like what? I find that seriously hard to believe.

gizmo

Biggins wrote: »

Couldn't give a rats arse what America's state government now thinks.
They are morally corrupt from within and a shower of international thugs anyway! Fcuk 'em!

So their opinions are invalidated because of the actions of the higher echelons of their government? Way to generalise...

As for saying they can **** off, as I said to the other poster, would you prefer the US multi-national firms to leave the country and take the jobs with them?

Have you even stopped to consider why he's saying these things? He's saying them because it's what he has been told by the heads of these companies, it's valuable information and should be acted upon by our own government.

Biggins wrote: »

...Lots of other figures.

Larger country -> larger number of "gobschites".

They're talking about university graduates, not high school students.

They're certainly not referring to the inner city or other extremely low income high school graduation rates.

Biggins

gizmo wrote: »

So their opinions are invalidated because of the actions of the higher echelons of their government?

You mean the ones that could have bothered to instigate proper change decades ago - but didn't?
Yes.

gizmo wrote: »

...As for saying they can **** off, as I said to the other poster, would you prefer the US multi-national firms to leave the country and take the jobs with them?

Yes, there's that tired argument again. So lets all bow and stay beholden to them for ever after to our masters/blackmailers?

gizmo wrote: »

...Have you even stopped to consider why he's saying these things? He's saying them because it's what he has been told by the heads of these companies, it's valuable information and should be acted upon by our own government.

Maybe so but before their try and get our house in order, they should start with their on in the same area. Its not like the demand isn't there!
...And they give out about us? :rolleyes:

gizmo wrote: »

...They're talking about university graduates, not high school students.

They're certainly not referring to the inner city or other extremely low income high school graduation rates.

A house is only as good as the foundation it stands on and if THEIR official state figures for early education abandonment is accurate alone, it does not bode well for them - no wonder nothing has changed and their own companies are coming begging for more educated bodies/workers from more foreign shores.

I'm no FF supporter - lord knows - but even I know that the USA should get their own schite together before they can come lecture us about the same damn thing!
End of story.

You have very valid points Gizmo - however people (USA) in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.

gizmo

Biggins wrote: »

You mean the ones that could have bothered to instigate proper change decades ago - but didn't?
Yes.

The issue here being, apart from being a Republican and donating to Bush's campaign, Kerry is a civilian and would have no say in such policy.

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, there's that tired argument again. So lets all bow and stay beholden to them for ever after to our masters/blackmailers?

I'm not saying that in the slightest, I'm merely answering like with like. If someone suggests telling them to **** off, what do they want to see happen, such companies put up and shut up? Why would they stay in a country where despite being large employers and tax contributors, even their most basic suggestions and/or complaints are ignored?

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe so but before their try and get our house in order, they should start with their on in the same area. Its not like the demand isn't there!
...And they give out about us? :rolleyes:

Said companies have no interest in other areas at home because that's not where they're operating. They're operating here and hence giving advice about here. They've then passed it onto the US Ambassador so that it can be brought up at a higher level, seems pretty sensible to me.

Biggins wrote: »

A house is only as good as the foundation it stands on and if THEIR official state figures for early education abandonment is accurate alone, it does not bode well for them - no wonder nothing has changed and their own companies are coming begging for more educated bodies/workers from more foreign shores.

I'm no FF supporter - lord knows - but even I know that the USA should get their own schite together before they can come lecture us about the same damn thing!
End of story.

You have very valid points Gizmo - however people (USA) in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.

I think we're talking about very different things here. I'm specifically referring to the opinions of the US multi-nationals here who used the Ambassador as a conduit of information to our own government. Bringing US-based statistics into is completely irrelevant in this case imo.

As a sidenote, it's not just the American companies who ahve been saying this, David O'Meara, former CEO of Havok was also saying similar things relating to his field. Poor science graduate quality playing Havok with indigenous firms

Electric Sheep

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting we might be better off with less employment and investment?

Yes, he is. A perfect example of a product of the Irish education system. They are very good at teaching arrogance and ignorance. A few more years distance from the Celtic Tiger will cure him.

Nolanger

"developing critical thinkers who can work in and also to establish both multinational"
The Irish Leaving Cert is designed to kill off creative thinking and stop you from setting up a multinational company!

terenc

orourkeda wrote: »

Perhaps they should f*ck off and hire their own graduates then

Worked in the north sea for an American company many years ago, they would bring graduates from the states over to work with us and can say what a shower of idiots they were but they owned the rigs so we had to put up with them ,I decided when I met these idiots I would never go and work in America.
I concluded a long time ago that the majority of Americans were stupid and I don't use that word lightly.

PeakOutput

terenc wrote: »

I concluded a long time ago that the majority of Americans were stupid and I don't use that word lightly.

must be true so

Scuid Mhór

andrewire wrote: »

Context:

The United States bluntly told the Republic's government that Ireland's education policies were not providing US firms with enough quality graduates.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/us-complained-to-irish-pm-about-quality-of-graduates-15031578.html#ixzz18JgkLijl

----

Do you agree or disagree with that comment? I personally think he's right. I think some (not all) colleges and universities do not challenge you intellectually, they just limit themselves to 'teach the program' and that's it. It seems there's more emphasis on guidelines than actual learning. My personal experience tells me lecturers are more concerned about external examiners than what you learn in the classroom. For example, most of my lecturers always say: 'An examiner won't like that type of answer', etc. Is it all about my learning experience and not what the examiner will think?

keep in mind we are getting this feedback from the sacred land of sarah palin.

DublinWriter

I don't want to sound like an educational elitist here, but I am, so I will.

The US educational system is a joke, unless you can afford the 100k+ to send your offspring to an Ivy League college, and even then...

Firstly, Calculus is considered a third level Maths subject in the states.

...and even then, most term papers in US Universities are multiple-choice.

Most European educational institutions score a US accredited degree on the same level as three British A-Levels.

terenc

PeakOutput wrote: »

must be true so

Yep.

PeakOutput

DublinWriter wrote: »

I don't want to sound like an educational elitist here, but I am, so I will.

The US educational system is a joke, unless you can afford the 100k+ to send your offspring to an Ivy League college, and even then...

Firstly, Calculus is considered a third level Maths subject in the states.

...and even then, most term papers in US Universities are multiple-choice.

Most European educational institutions score a US accredited degree on the same level as three British A-Levels.

there are plenty of great universities in america, there are also plenty of rubbish ones

unfortunately here there are no great ones really, some pretty good ones, but no great ones, and they hand out degrees like junk mail

there are great universities in the uk as well and you could get the same type of education there as you could in the great ones in america for less money

edit; also we arent in competition with america for this investment we are in competition with the rest of the world

strokemyclover

The Irish college system is a test of endurance and nothing else. I know some pretty stupid people here who have degrees. It is not the hardest place to get qualified tbh - thanks to private educational institutions. If you pay enough here you will get your degree in the end once you attend all exams and classes.

I got my degree here and don't think I stayed until the end of any exam I took to get it - I always ducked out an hour before the end for a smoke as they won't let you leave in the last 30 minutes.

Bill Cullen was right: Daddy can't buy you cop on in Trinity College.

wellboy76

But he was really spoiling us with the ferrero rochers!

terenc

PeakOutput wrote: »

must be true so[/QUOTE
Lucky for us the the French bought the Americans out,was I glad to see the back of them as was every other nationality on the rig. Love the French.
You know what you can do with your American graduate, saved me a plane fare.
Do you work for an American company:)

PeakOutput

terenc wrote: »

Do you work for an American company:)

nope im a student in an irish university

edit; actually i guess i do work for an american company but not like what you are thinking , i am student in an irish university aswell

karma_

PeakOutput wrote: »

nope im a student in an irish university

edit; actually i guess i do work for an american company but not like what you are thinking , i am student in an irish university aswell

Ah when I was 19 I thought I knew everything too.

PeakOutput

karma_ wrote: »

Ah when I was 19 I thought I knew everything too.

kept your patronising though didnt ye? its been a long time since i was 19 so thats 0 for 2 assumptions wana go for a 3rd?

karma_

PeakOutput wrote: »

kept your patronising though didnt ye? its been a long time since i was 19 so thats 0 for 2 assumptions wana go for a 3rd?

You know, maybe you're right, for an undergraduate studying at university your spelling and punctuation leaves something to be desired.

Red Hand

karma_ wrote: »

You know, maybe you are right. For an undergraduate studying at university, your spelling and punctuation leaves something to be desired.

Must do better.

karma_

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Must do better.

Well isn't it just as well I'm not the one arguing about the evils of the Irish education system, while at the same attending one of it's institutions.

Anita Blow

PeakOutput wrote: »

well we used to have a two universities in the top 100 in teh world now i think they are both out of the top 300 if not 500 could be wrong on that though

rankings arent the be all and end all i know and there is some great ground breaking research happening in irish universities and IT's but our undergraduates are atrocious.

Actually in 2010,
Trinity is 52nd in the world.
UCD is 114th.
UCC is 184th.
NUIG 232nd.
UCC and NUIG both jumped up since 2009.
Source is QS University Rankings.

And all these Universities have achieved these rankings with budgets a fraction of the other Universities in the rankings.

PeakOutput

karma_ wrote: »

Well isn't it just as well I'm not the one arguing about the evils of the Irish education system, while at the same attending one of it's institutions.

you dont think someone who is attending the institutions might be a good person to ask about their quality?

by the way thats 4 posts in a row were you have decided to attack the poster instead of the post, do you have a coherent argument that shows the irish education system is up to the highest international standards or did you just want to say all americans are stupid?

if its the latter thats fine too it is after hours after all

PeakOutput

Anita Blow wrote: »

Actually in 2010,
Trinity is 52nd in the world.
UCD is 114th.
UCC is 184th.
NUIG 232nd.
UCC and NUIG both jumped up since 2009.
Source is QS University Rankings.

And all these Universities have achieved these rankings with budgets a fraction of the other Universities in the rankings.

yep i saw that actually last night when i was browsing around, im guessing its the same ranking as the times ranking as the positions are the same. no argument there its ranked in those positions. it is however the only ranking out of all of them that has an irish university in the top 100 unless the rest have been updated since before the summer as well and all the irish unis jumped up the rankings and none of the media covered it

ill spend ten minutes on it and see if i can get you a decent list of the rankings

also it should be noted that most of the rankings are based on the reputations of the staff and their research and the postgraduate research that occurs in the universities. i specifically said that we have some great research departments in this countries unis but thats not education. the education that is provided is sub par, imo.

karma_

PeakOutput wrote: »

you dont think someone who is attending the institutions might be a good person to ask about their quality?

by the way thats 4 posts in a row were you have decided to attack the poster instead of the post, do you have a coherent argument that shows the irish education system is up to the highest international standards or did you just want to say all americans are stupid?

if its the latter thats fine too it is after hours after all

Sir, I do not have a coherent argument that unequivocally proves that Irish institutions of education are superior to American ones. Nor do I claim that all Americans are stupid, as that is an absurd argument to make. However, I do know many Irish graduates, and I know American ones after spending some years living in the United States, and I can say with confidence that our US counterparts are not streets ahead in the education race.

Indeed Sir, they do have some very well funded and fantastic Colleges but it takes money to graduate from one of those and not all of their graduates are shining examples of education (see George Bush).

I do hope however, that we do ignore this US ambassadors advice, and refrain from adopting an American approach to education.

Also, is it only 4?

PeakOutput

karma_ wrote: »

I do hope however, that we do ignore this US ambassadors advice, and refrain from adopting an American approach to education.

why are people getting so bent out of shape about the fact it came from the ambassador? the same thing came from the companies themselves before the summer. what vested interests do they have accept wanting the best employees they can possibly find?

i havnt seen anyone seriously suggest a move to the american model, in fact i havnt seen much of any suggestions in this thread. its just 'yes it is' 'no it isnt' arguments.

the way i see it is, our education system in general is good but could be alot better. the leaving cert needs a massive overhaul

the third level model needs to change. everyone who wants to go to university should be able to, that dosnt mean that everyone should get a free third level education.

i personally witnessed 6 business students who i was living with in first year go to no more then one or two hours a week and still get and average of b's

i think you mentioned something about multiple choice. the business course in my university has plenty of multiple choice exams over the course of the degree, but in ireland that dosnt really matter anyway because, depending on the department you are in, you are usually given the exact questions that are coming up on the exam anyway(arts subjects seem particularly bad for this but its happened to me in all three departments, iv had modules in, in this university).

if / when i own my own company there will be very very few courses in the country producing graduates of a quality id be interested in and thats not just my opinion thats the head of googles european operations aswell. i believe intel has also complained about being able to get quality graduates

people can take issue with the fact an american is giving us honest advice all they want but the fact he is american and the fact they have their own problems dosnt make what he said any less true

PeakOutput

anyway its been fun i gotta go to sleep so i can get up at 5.30 and cram for my final exam, thank **** its almost over and christmas is almost here

virmilitaris

de Lehman Bruddars wrote: »

Like what? I find that seriously hard to believe.

Sorry I probably shouldn't have phrased it like that. I'm exaggerating of course because I don't have a degree in maths but I'd guess I amn't far wrong. I did a degree in Computer Science and did maths (as a subject) until my second year and they're doing similar stuff in high school here. For example pretty advanced probability theory.

Cheap Thrills!

*shakes head sagely*


I just hope this doesn't affect the flow of nasty gack delicious ferrero rocher with which the ambassador had been thus far.....erm....'spoiling us' toxically poisoning us!! ???

:cool:

Sergeant

This thread makes me despair.