Coillte "fire sale" & Bertie Ahern

moseythecat

where do you draw the line then?

Do we privatise education, Health our water services? these are all drains on the state coffers. Do we have to flog everything to pay off a debt. What are you left with then? nothing...

Its just a matter of thinking clearly about it. The forest over time will yield more money than just a land sale alone. we have a long road ahead of us

liammur

Privatisation is not as bad as the PS unions crank it up to be. FF erred v badly with the privatisation of eircom, but yes, areas like education and health could and should be looked at as well.

liammur

liammur wrote: »

I'm for selling all state assets. We need hundreds of billions of € and we need it quickly.

We gambled on the construction and we lost, now it's time to empty the coffers to pay back debt. Sad but true.

private banks and private developers and businesses gambled on construction
the state didnt gamble on construction

the state only got involved when it was clear it couldnt win the bet.....what idiots!! Remember when 100,000 came out to protest against public sector cuts
and only a handful came out to protest NAMA

liammur

Deleted User wrote: »

private banks and private developers and businesses gambled on construction
the state didnt gamble on construction

the state only got involved when it was clear it couldnt win the bet.....what idiots!! Remember when 100,000 came out to protest against public sector cuts
and only a handful came out to protest NAMA

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. B Ahern et al knew exactly what they were doing. Around 25% of tax take was from construction. They knew this was wrong and unsustainable but kept it propped to give themselves something like 13 payrises.
It is true that most individuals of the state didn't gamble on it, but by electing these people, we are also inextricably linked to it.

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

I'm for selling all state assets. We need hundreds of billions of € and we need it quickly.

We gambled on the construction and we lost, now it's time to empty the coffers to pay back debt. Sad but true.

@liammur
Ive no issues with privatization

but 1000 euro an acre for land with forest on it is a joke to be honest

liammur

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@liammur
Ive no issues with privatization

but 1000 euro an acre for land with forest on it is a joke to be honest

It depends. That does seem v cheap to me, but if the lands are sold to the highest bidder I would expect it to sell for far more.
At €1K per acre I'd be interested in picking up a quite a few acres myself!

recedite

liammur wrote: »

It depends. That does seem v cheap to me, but if the lands are sold to the highest bidder I would expect it to sell for far more.
At €1K per acre I'd be interested in picking up a quite a few acres myself!

That's the problem with this country; too many people thinking only of their own self interest. Sometimes the national interest is served by the cumulative effects of this, as when SME's contribute to the overall economy, but often we end up going down some blind alley, as happened with the recent FF Tent bailout politics.

The obvious way to get quick cash from state forestry while preserving the national interest is to sell long leases. Responsible foresters would then manage the land and provide wealth and employment from it.

Speculators would miss out on making a quick buck at the country's expense though; not everyone would be happy with that.

chris_d

liammur wrote: »

Privatisation is not as bad as the PS unions crank it up to be. FF erred v badly with the privatisation of eircom, but yes, areas like education and health could and should be looked at as well.

jesus h. christ.

liammur

recedite wrote: »

That's the problem with this country; too many people thinking only of their own self interest. Sometimes the national interest is served by the cumulative effects of this, as when SME's contribute to the overall economy, but often we end up going down some blind alley, as happened with the recent FF Tent bailout politics.

The obvious way to get quick cash from state forestry while preserving the national interest is to sell long leases. Responsible foresters would then manage the land and provide wealth and employment from it.

Speculators would miss out on making a quick buck at the country's expense though; not everyone would be happy with that.

I've no problem with speculators making a quick buck if they are able to, so long as any deals are done in an open and fair way. The opposite to D O Brien getting his licenses years ago. The highest bidder should prevail.

keithcan

salesjobs.ie wrote: »

To the question: "What the hell is going on?" - This is straight out of "Yes Minister" speak - Humphries would have been proud - especially "Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency"


Dear Sir,

Thank you for your query regarding the rationale behind this exercise. It is unfortunate that this e-tender appeared at a time when there is speculation around the sale of Coillte in the media. Any link between this project and such speculation is purely accidental. Coillte has been considering the public goods (non market benefits) that it's forests deliver to Ireland for some years. We began work with an examination of the value of forest recreation and its contribution to rural tourism in 2005 and the results of this project are available on our website (under publications) should you wish to take a look.



We now wish to examine the value of forests in the landscape and also that of biodiversity and heritage. These are values that forests deliver to the people of Ireland and we believe it is essential that they are valued in a manner that policy makers understand and can use to make rational decisions. Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency. Interestingly however, the European Commission is increasingly calling for the TEEB - Total Ecosystem Economic Benefits - to be evaluated and used in decision making processes. We see this project as just part of the new understanding behind the management of large areas of lands and ecosystems such as we have.



I trust this answers your query. If you wish to discuss further please do not hesitate to contact me either by email or telephone.



Regards,

Bill Murphy



Bill Murphy

Head of Recreation

Coillte

Dublin Road

Newtownmountkennedy

Co Wicklow

Just seeing this now from a poster and I have to take issue because I think the answer from the Coillte head of recreation is really good. How on earth can you describe it as 'Yes Minister' speak? I sincerely believe you'd have to be prejudiced in the extreme to read it that way. The fact that he says (my underlining) "Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency" shows that he is trying to explain to you that this is an essential element to the survey, whether he likes it or not.

Here is a fact: Coillte Recreation people have done a really good job in recent years in developing Walking Trails etc. They are key players in this area and use their land to develop other activities like mountain biking, etc.

The idea that they're seeking to place a value on other aspects to the forests like biodiversity and heritage - well how is that bad? How? I for one am delighted they are pursuing this evaluation as it will reinforce the broad value of the forests. Fair play to them for doing this.

garanmoldu

When your calculating the profits of Coillte don't forget to add in the tourism side, you seem to have forgotten that ad campaigns for Ireland's tourism are usually based on its natural beauty and the "emerald Isle" concept, this happens to rely on the 7% of forests in the country, international businesses are already beginning to question coming here due to increasing taxes and now they want to remove the tourism aspect as well,they do realise the recession isn't a big international game of "go for broke" don't they?

Then there are local aspects, I live near one of the forests myself and know that there are people up walking every weekend that Ive ever been there (the forest has a entrance fee into the carpark), also the forests are frequently used by different groups such as the scouts for various activities.

To even consider selling off this any of this land (let alone all 445000 hectares of it) to an international organisation run by Bertie Ahern seems just a bit ludicrous to me.

Someone also mentioned that their profits had gone down in 2009, if you read the full link you posted you may notice that over €13m of that was investing into a wind farm with ESB on coillte land, not what i would consider a waste of land.

keithcan

Aisling Murphy wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else feel as outraged about this as I do?
My head is going to explode...I don't know how much more I can take of the constant revelations that are becoming a daily occurrence in this country? Have we all become so beaten down and desensitised that we feel too powerless and downtrodden to even protest? Where is the civil unrest and rebellion? Have we become so 'battered' we feel it's futile?
THE LAND BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE AND IS NOT FOR SALE! The IMF and ECB own a big enough part of us as it is. When do we say 'ENOUGH'.
:mad:

With all due respect, there's another way you could stop yourself getting so upset: stop being outraged about bulls**t issues. There is no serious issue here. No planned sale of Coillte. You might as well promote a campaign about the Government plans to sell the Phoenix Park to a nuclear power company. That's not happening either, but maybe it won't stop the campaign.

Hawkeye123

As a believer in free enterprise it would seem strange that a private fund should be chaired by Bertie Ahern. Bertie Ahern by his own admission is a socialist and look at what he did to the country. It is also galling to see trade unionists and their ilk worming their way on to state boards at the tax payers expense just like the parasites that they are. What are trade unionists doing on the Board of Aer Lingus and for that matter in the Labour Court. Surely, the Labour Court should be the preserve of business people who know what is practically possible in the real world and not a squatting spot for the pot smoking/telly-tubby-land/head-in-the-clouds type of leftist trade union type of individual.

recedite

keithcan wrote: »

With all due respect, there's another way you could stop yourself getting so upset: stop being outraged about bulls**t issues. There is no serious issue here. No planned sale of Coillte. You might as well promote a campaign about the Government plans to sell the Phoenix Park to a nuclear power company. That's not happening either, but maybe it won't stop the campaign.

The sale of Coillte seems less likely now that FF have been removed from office, but the new govt. are still under pressure to find money anywhere they can.
McCarthy report and IMF wanted a sell off of unspecified state assets. We await the publication of Mc Carthy Review report.
Future decisions made by the govt. will depend on perceived likely public reaction, which they may well gauge based on any existing online campaigns and/or public outrage.

kumate_champ07

any updates on this?

_AVALANCHE_

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

any updates on this?

Back up for discussion next wk.

A MEMO recommending the sale of State assets will be considered by the Cabinet, possibly as early as next Tuesday, following agreement from the EU-IMF troika that a “sizeable” portion may be used for jobs stimulus.

Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin announced yesterday that there had been a breakthrough on this issue during discussions with the EU Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund as part of the latest review of Ireland’s €67.5 billion bailout programme.

Mr Howlin said the troika had moved from a position where it had insisted the funds could be used only to reduce the country’s debts to a position where it agreed that a portion could be used to create employment.

“We made progress in that regard. We will have sizeable quantities of money available from assets that we can apply to new jobs,” he said during a joint conference with Minister for Finance Michael Noonan on the outcome of the review.

At a later press conference, the EU Commission seemed to play down the concession. Its head of mission Istvan Szekely said plans had to be finalised about the use of cash from the sale of State assets.

“We would like to understand their plans for asset sales and I understand this is in the process,” he said.

Government sources insisted last night that Mr Howlin’s comments had been approved by the troika beforehand. While Mr Howlin refused to be drawn on the extent of asset sales, or the proportion to be used to fund jobs, it is understood the more the Government sells, the higher the proportion of funds available for jobs creation.

In its programme the Government set an upper threshold of €2 billion but now looks more likely to approve more than €3 billion in disposals, including part of ESB. A report prepared by a special group included Dublin Port, shares in Aer Lingus, and parts of Bord Gáis and Coillte in its list of recommendations.

The troika, in its summation, said the Government has met the terms of the €67.5 billion programme so far but that the country faced “considerable challenges” and must implement policy measures.

The Government also claimed significant progress with the troika on the contentious €30.6 billion of promissory notes, or State IOUs, which are being used to fund the cost of Anglo Irish Bank and INBS. A further €16.8 billion in interest must be paid on the loan.

Mr Noonan last night described the promissory notes, with their punitive interest rates, as “abominable”. He said the troika would present a position paper by the end of February.

“What we are working on is an alternative to the promissory note that will reduce the costs to Ireland,” he said. A source said it would mean an extension of the term or a drop in interest rates, or both.

A number of deadlines for the introduction of new legislation and plans for the banking sector have been deferred.

Legislation to reform the personal insolvency regime and a restructuring plan for Irish Life and Permanent (ILP) have been deferred until the end of April, with ILP recapitalisation put back to June.

Stress-testing of Irish banks (the PCAR) has also been deferred from March to November.

The troika highlighted challenges including the weaknesses of domestic demand, high unemployment and an economic slowdown in some of the main trading partners.

As a result, its growth forecasts for the economy had been cut from 1 per cent to 0.5 per cent – just over a third of the Government’s forecast. It still expects the 8.6 per cent budget deficit for 2012 to be met.

Mr Noonan, for his part, said there was no reason to resile from the Government’s own growth prediction.

The ECB again ruled out forcing losses on senior unsecured and unguaranteed bondholders as it would damage confidence in the Irish banking system and could be “very costly”. Anglo is due to repay a €1.25 billion senior unsecured unguaranteed bond next Wednesday.

Mr Noonan said the fiscal consolidation targets had been met by a significant margin, in tandem with the first return to growth in 2011 for three years.

The troika said the Government had delivered a budget deficit of 10 per cent for 2011, significantly ahead of programme targets.

Mr Howlin said the troika was sensitive about the €5 billion in the National Pension Reserve Fund and regarded it, in some sense, as “collateral”. This signalled that some or all of this fund may not be available for Government programmes.

Fianna Fáil finance spokesman Michael McGrath said the real economic test was the number of people on the Live Register. Sinn Féin’s Pádraig Mac Lochlainn said the latest review showed austerity was not working as a policy.

It's OK though, a euro or two is going to be spent on Job creation here:rolleyes::rolleyes:, it's not all going off to European Banks/Funds to pay for private I mean Public debt.:rolleyes:


Sale of Coillte is ruled out by Fine Gael and Labour (:rolleyes: We'll see)

Bord Na Mona Land will probably be next.







http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76622834&postcount=57... from this Thread.

Biggins

Given that Mr Ahern is now finally seen officially as the person he is, should all this be looked in to by a state financial investigator?

He's was involved and pushed for the sale of Irish land cheap - VERY cheap and was involved (chairs!) according to reports, in the Swiss bank that wants to buy the land!

Further conflict of interest (for more personal profit) ?
Is that where his real accounts are too by the way? "Helvetia Wealth Bank" ?

AlmightyCushion

Biggins wrote: »

Given that Mr Ahern is now finally seen officially as the person he is, should all this be looked in to by a state financial investigator?

He's was involved and pushed for the sale of Irish land cheap - VERY cheap and was involved (chairs!) according to reports, in the Swiss bank that wants to buy the land!

Further conflict of interest (for more personal profit) ?
Is that where his real accounts are too by the way? "Helvetia Wealth Bank" ?

Any sale of coilte won't include the land. Even if it did, if there were any mineral resources found on that land, it would belong to the state.

recedite

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Any sale of coilte won't include the land.

Coillte is only the management company; not worth much in itself. It looks like only some of the trees will be sold (for private harvesting) now, or some of the land leased, but if FF were still in power it would be a different story.

bbam

It looks like they are selling the current standing stock of timber and maybe another rotation after that too... No land or mineral rights to be sold...

I'm presuming they are sensible enough to include clauses that compels the purchaser to replant all lands before they are returned to the state??

geeman

The Bye Laws changed in 2009 for whatever reasons

geeman

geeman wrote: »

The Bye Laws changed in 2009 for whatever reasons

thanks for that, pity it is being restricted so much. Had so much potential for tourism. People should be allowed hike, camp, ride horses & make use of waterways on coillte land. Be allowed do all the touristy things.

Sierra Oscar

recedite wrote: »

Coillte is only the management company; not worth much in itself. It looks like only some of the trees will be sold (for private harvesting) now, or some of the land leased, but if FF were still in power it would be a different story.

Who does actually own the land - does the state have any stake or is it all just privately held but operated by coillte?

Voodoo_rasher

"I'm presuming they are sensible enough to include clauses that compels the purchaser to replant all lands before they are returned to the state??"

Don't get yr hopes up. We're not an efficient race.

recedite

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Who does actually own the land - does the state have any stake or is it all just privately held but operated by coillte?

"the State" owns it all, but that means you and me, the people of Ireland. Not Coillte.

Icepick

macannrb wrote: »

They have also clocked up 90bn of debt without asking us

They have put 70bn of additional debt, into the banks, without asking us

They asked in '97, '02 and '07 and people said yes.

Aisling Murphy

So they had no plan to sell it eh?
Its people like me getting upset about things, highlighting them, actively campaigning
and mobilising others to protest also, that prevents a lot of the asset stripping of our
natural resources.. I was very active in the (successful)campaign against the selling off of our forestry,
and continue to be very socially and politically active against other unjust attempts by this govt
to plunder what belongs to the people (OwnOurOil, DBC etc)
What do you do beside mock people who try to do the right thing

creedp

recedite wrote: »

"the State" owns it all, but that means you and me, the people of Ireland. Not Coillte.

I think Coillte might dispute that - remember the significant ESOP established on the sale of Eircom! All 'you an I' got out of that deal was an opportunity to buy shares at an inflated and unsustainable price.

AlmightyCushion

creedp wrote: »

I think Coillte might dispute that - remember the significant ESOP established on the sale of Eircom! All 'you an I' got out of that deal was an opportunity to buy shares at an inflated and unsustainable price.

The state received a lot of money from the sale and I believe it was invested in the NPRF.

recedite

creedp wrote: »

I think Coillte might dispute that

Coillte is just the farm manager. We own the farm.

creedp

recedite wrote: »

Coillte is just the farm manager. We own the farm.

We also owned the telephone network. I was just making the [possibly pointless] point that it is likely the 1,000 or so Coillte employees will get a stake in our farm if it was privitised or maybe we learned our lesson and won't go down that road again.

AlmightyCushion

creedp wrote: »

We also owned the telephone network. I was just making the [possibly pointless] point that it is likely the 1,000 or so Coillte employees will get a stake in our farm if it was privitised or maybe we learned our lesson and won't go down that road again.

The land was never going to be privatised just the harvesting rights.