Is it true that...

Orizio

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

pearljamfan

there are Educate Together schools in some areas,also gaelscoils are non denominational i think. the waiting list is always long though so its best to send in an application as soon as you can. my son is due to start big school next september and hes not christened/baptised , ive just sent in applications to loads of schools in my area and will find out in april/may which ones have accepted him. thats all i know!!

thebullkf

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

how do you know they don't exist.

you say discriminatory....???... the majority disagree... 'tis a democracy after all. if everyone got their way... **shudders**

{not a bible basher btw}

Orizio

thebullkf wrote: »

how do you know they don't exist.

you say discriminatory....???... the majority disagree... 'tis a democracy after all. if everyone got their way... **shudders**

{not a bible basher btw}

No offence but this post makes little to no sense and has nothing to do with my original post regarding religion and primary schools. I don't know God doesn't exist, rather like I don't know Shiva and Thor don't exist, but I'm inclined to think they don't as this world, and a God's existence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me and seem entirely incompatible.

Orizio

pearljamfan wrote: »

there are Educate Together schools in some areas,also gaelscoils are non denominational i think. the waiting list is always long though so its best to send in an application as soon as you can. my son is due to start big school next september and hes not christened/baptised , ive just sent in applications to loads of schools in my area and will find out in april/may which ones have accepted him. thats all i know!!

There is no 'Educate Together' schools in my area nor 'gealscoils' (I think).

So essentially my (non) religious views mean the schools I can send my child to are extremely limited? This is completely unacceptable and illiberal - the moral and ethical upbringing of a child belongs purely to the parents, not strangers and their unproven beliefs. How does one go about changing this discriminatory situation?

Sardonicat

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

No, this is not a condition to get into an Irish school. The majority of schools are single denominational though. From what I can gather, in an area where there are more kids then places at the local school they can ask to see proof of baptism, which they are entitled to do.
I went to a catholic school back in the 80s. There were a few protestants and atheisits there, even then. There are multi-denom schools, the "Educate Together" ones.There are no non-denom schools in ireland.

pearljamfan

just have to say, im not interested in a god, church, etc etc but i did go to a c of e school in england and was told all the bible stories as a child, i dont want my son in any way 'pushed' into a religion at a young age as i want him to decide for himself when hes old enough, BUT as a child, those stories are just stories, its not going to do any damage it might even just make him more aware of other cultures and understand more about people. your child will have many friends from all walks of life . if you dont want anything like that then home schooling is the way to go!

thebullkf

Orizio wrote: »

No offence but this post makes little to no sense and has nothing to do with my original post regarding religion and primary schools. I don't know God doesn't exist, rather like I don't know Shiva and Thor don't exist, but I'm inclined to think they don't as this world, and a God's existence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me and seem entirely incompatible.

none taken.

I'm not a Church going person. My family are all Baptised,can't remember if it was a condition of acceptance to school though.
I think its relevant in that you don't see the relevance of religion ,but millions here do,thus its on the curriculum and a basis (for entry) i don't find it discriminatory,you do. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you can impose it on others (which you seeem to want to do) likewise i don't believe
religon should dictate everything either.
As it stands most people accept it,and get on with it.
If you feel that strongly about it-visit your local TD,contact the Dept. of Edu.

pearljamfan

Orizio wrote: »

How does one go about changing this discriminatory situation?

move out of ireland!? it is a catholic country.
get a facebook page and get people who think the same to join you?
i dont know, theres lots of things i dont like about this country but im here for lack of anything else to do about it.
whats important is raising your child in the home environment, having healthy relationships , good food, happy children, do what you can and pick your battles.

byhookorbycrook

Most Gaelscoileanna were set up by groups of parents. If you feel strongly about this issue, there is no reason you could not try to set up either a mutli-denom Gaelscoil or an Educate Together school.

Even multi-denoms have to teach some form of religious/ethics programme, so there is no such thing as a no mention of God/Gods school.

overmantle

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

To be fair, Orizio, your view of ordinary schools seems way OTT. Most schools I know of require a Baptismal Cert for Children who wish to make Communion or Confirmation. That should not be an issue for you. The reality is, however, that in all schools I know of in Cork, there are children of all faiths (Christian and Non-Christian) as well as countless children from families who have absolutely no religious affiliation. It's not an issue for thousands of parents and if it isn't, then I don't see that it's a major problem. Your child doesn't need to take part in the religion classes, if that is your wish and certainly won't be alone in not receiving the sacraments.:)

#15

Orizio wrote: »

There is no 'Educate Together' schools in my area nor 'gealscoils' (I think).

So essentially my (non) religious views mean the schools I can send my child to are extremely limited? This is completely unacceptable and illiberal - the moral and ethical upbringing of a child belongs purely to the parents, not strangers and their unproven beliefs. How does one go about changing this discriminatory situation?

It's tough to change. From what I have found out, Labour and Sinn Féin both seem to support the removal of the church from schools. I don't know about FG.

thebullkf wrote: »

I think its relevant in that you don't see the relevance of religion ,but millions here do,thus its on the curriculum and a basis (for entry) i don't find it discriminatory,you do.

Religion is not a part of the state curriculum, but there are religious programs that are taught in faith-ethos schools.

pearljamfan wrote: »

move out of ireland!? it is a catholic country.

Ireland is not a catholic country.

It is a democratic republic that aspires to treat all faiths equally.

It just so happens that the vast majority of the population are catholics. Even then, most of those catholics seem to be fairly lax in their adherence to church rules.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Most Gaelscoileanna were set up by groups of parents. If you feel strongly about this issue, there is no reason you could not try to set up either a mutli-denom Gaelscoil or an Educate Together school.

Even multi-denoms have to teach some form of religious/ethics programme, so there is no such thing as a no mention of God/Gods school.

There is no reason for the state not to actually ensure that state schools are places where one faith is not promoted over others.

The whole set up your own schools argument is a bit tiresome. Not everyone has the time to undertake such projects.

overmantle wrote: »

It's not an issue for thousands of parents and if it isn't, then I don't see that it's a major problem.

Well, it is a major problem for him/her, and shouldn't be dismissed just because others are happy to accept the current farcical set-up.

overmantle

#15, the point I'm trying to make is that it need NOT be the major problem for Orizio that he seems to think it is. Mainstream schools are NOT what he seems to think they are. If Muslim children and children of no faith can (and do) attend ordinary primary schools in Ireland and are welcomed with sensitivity, then it IS possible for somebody like Orizio's child to attend his/her local school, to be welcome there, to thrive there, without having to take part in any religious element.

philologos

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

OP: No you don't need to have your child baptised. But in RCC schools it will give your child priority. In CofI schools there are spaces left for CofI students, but also spaces left for non CofI. I remember in my class in primary school there were people who weren't baptised yet and of differing denominations.

mat cauthon

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: No you don't need to have your child baptised. But in RCC schools it will give your child priority. In CofI schools there are spaces left for CofI students, but also spaces left for non CofI. I remember in my class in primary school there were people who weren't baptised yet and of differing denominations.

It isnt such a biggie - unless you make it one. The schools religious programme is fairly harmless, and all in all a bit of religion wont hurt anyone - would you object to them being read the legends of Ancient Greece?

If you chill a bit, so will your child, and provision can be made if needs be during sacrement years.

D4RK ONION

mat cauthon wrote: »

It isnt such a biggie - unless you make it one. The schools religious programme is fairly harmless, and all in all a bit of religion wont hurt anyone - would you object to them being read the legends of Ancient Greece?

If you chill a bit, so will your child, and provision can be made if needs be during sacrement years.

This is a completely false argument. Indeed, the comparison you would actually draw would be "would you object to them being taught about how fantastic Zues is and how we should praise and love him for making us all and putting us on this earth?"

The problem for most Atheist parents however is not the religious 30 minutes a day. You can withdraw your child from that and no more is said about it. Religion (as it is meant to in a Catholic Ethos school) permeates the entire day. This is the main concern of such parents.

Pixied

I am in a similar position to the OP. The situation is not simple when trying to get a place for a child in a lot of schools.

All schools in my area area are catholic, there is a population boom and a baptismal certificate has to be produced with every application.

I have been told by all schools my child will not get any type of priority as she has not been baptised. She may get in, she may not. That's an awful lot of uncertainty, you basically can't plan for your child to get a school place somewhere in their own area. These schools have some non catholics but not a lot. We may have to move to resolve this issue somehow.

Anyway, that's my situation.

overmantle

Pixied, this may be the situation in some Dublin schools, where there is huge demand for places. It is NOT the situation in many other schools.

I'm definitely with Mat Cauthon on this one in that it is only as much of a biggie as you choose to make it or to perceive it. The analogy of Ancient Greece and Zeus may not have been the best one to use but thousands of existing non-Catholic parents, up and down the country, are thrilled with the schools they attend, even though the Denomination of those schools happens to be Catholic.

I wonder how familiar some of the scaremongerers really are with the regular primary school of 2010/11? To listen to some, one could be forgiven for thinking that bible bashers are pounding the corridors throughout the day. This is NOT the case. I have several friends (atheists, muslims, and other faiths) whose kids attend 'catholic' schools and although some may have had reservations beforehand, all are thrilled with the schools and none have any reservations now.Hth.

Pixied

I think you are misreading my perspective. I understand the analogy of storytelling, that was not my issue, however I might add it does depend on who tells that 'story' and how the 'story' is told. I also know some people who felt cheated and silly when they eventually found out these stories were but only that..

Regardless of anyones perspective widespread choice should exist. It will eventually come around but in my case it is needed now. I would settle for my child attending a catholic school if it meant she could stay in the same area. I understand that procedures are in place for children from other religious backgrounds or those with none.

My problem is not uncommon in Dublin, at least. I have had some people tell me 'just get them baptised', I can see their logic. However nothing will ever change if we all took that attitude. If there is a demand for mixed religious or secular schools or school places in existing catholic schools it should be accomodated . Maybe even through introducing a minimum quota system for non-catholics in catholic schools in areas such as mine. They are after all receiving funding from the state.

The situation for many parents I know is similar to mine, friends who have children in 2nd class now did not experience the same issues as me. Space in schools, even a few years ago, was not as intense. I have friends in other parts of the country and getting into their local school baptised or not is not as big an issue. This does not mean a genuine big problem does not exist in the capital or other places where the population is much bigger and possibly more diverse.

Just some thoughts, but who knows..for me this problem is a serious and practical one.

overmantle

Pixied wrote: »

I think you are misreading my perspective. I understand the analogy of storytelling, that was not my issue, however I might add it does depend on who tells that 'story' and how the 'story' is told. I also know some people who felt cheated and silly when they eventually found out these stories were but only that..

Regardless of anyones perspective widespread choice should exist. It will eventually come around but in my case it is needed now. I would settle for my child attending a catholic school if it meant she could stay in the same area. I understand that procedures are in place for children from other religious backgrounds or those with none.

My problem is not uncommon in Dublin, at least. I have had some people tell me 'just get them baptised', I can see their logic. However nothing will ever change if we all took that attitude. If there is a demand for mixed religious or secular schools or school places in existing catholic schools it should be accomodated . Maybe even through introducing a minimum quota system for non-catholics in catholic schools in areas such as mine. They are after all receiving funding from the state.

The situation for many parents I know is similar to mine, friends who have children in 2nd class now did not experience the same issues as me. Space in schools, even a few years ago, was not as intense. I have friends in other parts of the country and getting into their local school baptised or not is not as big an issue. This does not mean a genuine big problem does not exist in the capital or other places where the population is much bigger and possibly more diverse.

Just some thoughts, but who knows..for me this problem is a serious and practical one.

Hi Pixied. I did say that it may well be more of an issue in Dublin but seeing as the OP is clearly from Cork, it is not the issue that he seemed to think it was in Cork, or the rest of the country.

byhookorbycrook

The real issue is lack of school places, for any/no religions. There are simply not enough schools in many areas.Our school is always hugely oversubscribed, we turn away twice as many as we can accept.

#15

overmantle wrote: »

I wonder how familiar some of the scaremongerers really are with the regular primary school of 2010/11?

Very familiar. I work in one.

It's catholic school, despite about 65% of the student body not being of the catholic faith.

It's outrageous, farcical, ridiculous, laughable and maddening all at once.

edit: not in Dublin either btw, this issue is certainly not confined to the capital.

#15

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The real issue is lack of school places, for any/no religions. There are simply not enough schools in many areas.Our school is always hugely oversubscribed, we turn away twice as many as we can accept.

The real issue is that in such a situation, that state schools can pick and choose on the basis of religion.

Should be first come, first served. It's unacceptable that a state-funded school is legally allowed to refuse a child, and accept another child at the same time, on the basis of religion.
It's backward and ignorant at best, sectarian at worst.

I have sympathy with oversubscribed schools, but they should be choosing their students in a fairer way.

gaeilgegrinds1

Educate Together is the way if it's not religion you want. Parents getting together to contribute to their child's education.

overmantle

#15 wrote: »

Very familiar. I work in one.

It's catholic school, despite about 65% of the student body not being of the catholic faith.

It's outrageous, farcical, ridiculous, laughable and maddening all at once.

edit: not in Dublin either btw, this issue is certainly not confined to the capital.

#15, it happens that I'm very familiar also, as I've worked in several schools (all Catholic, as it happens), where I have had (and do have) dealings with parents and children of several faiths and none. It is NOT the issue that so many people try to portray it to be. There is a very healthy respect for all religions in the school and through multi-cultural days, for example, all children get to learn about and celebrate the traditions and beliefs of their classmates. It really is tiresome to listen to so much scaremongering which can and does give the impression to many parents looking for school places for their children.

It's a choice that parents make, based on the options available to them. My point is that it is wrong to dismiss a school that happens to be (in name at least), a Catholic school, even though it is completely inclusive and accommodating.

It is the quality (rather than the denomination) of the school itself that is what should determine the preferred choice of school. There are wonderful Catholic schools and some that are not as good. Similarly, there are very good ET schools and others that leave a LOT to be desired. For this reason, if I were the OP, I would consider an excellent, inclusive, accommodating Catholic school before another school that might appear to tick one box but may NOT tick many other boxes.

#15

overmantle wrote: »

It is the quality (rather than the denomination) of the school itself that is what should determine the preferred choice of school. There are wonderful Catholic schools and some that are not as good. Similarly, there are very good ET schools and others that leave a LOT to be desired. For this reason, if I were the OP, I would consider an excellent, inclusive, accommodating Catholic school before another school that might appear to tick one box but may NOT tick many other boxes.

They are reasonable points and I don't disagree with you. However, I'm talking about the bigger picture here. It is bizarre that in the 21st century, state-funded schools are
(i) 93% catholic - this is nothing more than a historical hangover
(ii) allowed discriminate on religious grounds during the enrolment process

Religious discrimination has no place in the public (ie state-funded) sphere. It's unacceptable in health, justice, taxation, etc. There is no reason why education should be an exception.

I'm not disputing your point that catholic schools can be inclusive - but their very nature ensures that one faith is revered above others.

#15

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Educate Together is the way if it's not religion you want. Parents getting together to contribute to their child's education.

Non-denominational, neutral education - funded by busy parents.

Denominational, biased education - funded by the state.

It's bizarre. This country has its priorities backwards.

BengaLover

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

Not to my knowledge, having 3 children ages 16,13,7 and none baptized.
The only thing scholls have ever insisted on having was the birth cert and pps number.

byhookorbycrook

#15 wrote: »

The real issue is that in such a situation, that state schools can pick and choose on the basis of religion.

Should be first come, first served..

We do go first come ,first served,after siblings.Religion does not come into it.I think some people like to overplay the religion issue and see ET schools as the answer.It's worth stating again ,that every primary school in Ireland has some form of religious education.So, for true non-denom education, a new model must be set up.

overmantle

BengaLover wrote: »

Not to my knowledge, having 3 children ages 16,13,7 and none baptized.
The only thing scholls have ever insisted on having was the birth cert and pps number.

Glad to see an example of somebody referring back to the OP's question and reassuring Orizio that, NO, in all probability, like Benalover, he will not have to produce a Baptismal Cert to enrol his child.

D4RK ONION

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

We do go first come ,first served,after siblings.Religion does not come into it.I think some people like to overplay the religion issue and see ET schools as the answer.It's worth stating again ,that every primary school in Ireland has some form of religious education.So, for true non-denom education, a new model must be set up.

Indeed, but I think the multi-denom nature of ET schools is the way to go. While some of the more extremist Atheist/Secular parents might prefer a 0 religion classroom, I (an atheist myself) think that the multi-denominational approach is the best of all worlds. Kids are taught to understand every religion (and lack of) and to respect their beliefs but not that one is greater than the other.

On top of that religion isn't all they put into that 30 minutes a day, there is also morality and environmental issues as well, both important subjects vital to educate a well rounded child.

TL;DR
IMO, Multi-denom > non-denom

overmantle

Dark Onion, I agree that religion is more to do with a moral education than simply religion. The A Live O programme is followed in Catholic schools and it is very inoffensive to followers of other religions and none. The focus is on morality and being an honest, good person rather than any kind of bible bashing.

#15

overmantle wrote: »

Dark Onion, I agree that religion is more to do with a moral education than simply religion. The A Live O programme is followed in Catholic schools and it is very inoffensive to followers of other religions and none. The focus is on morality and being an honest, good person rather than any kind of bible bashing.

That's missing the point though.

Would you be happy if we switched the catholic program with a muslim program (for example) as long as the emphasis was on morality?
Would you genuinely not mind?

overmantle

#15, A moral programme would be the most important thing for me. Having said that, whether practising or not, in name, we are still largely a Christian country, the majority of whose citizens are baptised Catholic.

Mind you, I had an interesting conversation with one Muslim parent a few years ago, who was making a pretty unrealistic request (Any and all realistic requests are readily, willingly and happily accommodated). I asked him if I went to his country and brought my children to be educated there and made such a request, what would the response be? He was absolutely horrified and readily admitted that my children would NOT be accepted there. He was almost sick at the thought of such a request being made in HIS country. So, the inclusiveness, welcoming attitude and accommodation that currently exist in Irish schools (most of which happen to be Catholic in name) for children of all faiths and none, is to be celebrated and acknowledged.

#15

overmantle wrote: »

Mind you, I had an interesting conversation with one Muslim parent a few years ago, who was making a pretty unrealistic request (Any and all realistic requests are readily, willingly and happily accommodated). I asked him if I went to his country and brought my children to be educated there and made such a request, what would the response be? He was absolutely horrified and readily admitted that my children would NOT be accepted there. He was almost sick at the thought of such a request being made in HIS country. So, the inclusiveness, welcoming attitude and accommodation that currently exist in Irish schools (most of which happen to be Catholic in name) for children of all faiths and none, is to be celebrated and acknowledged.

It's an interesting story but not really relevant.

We should not judge ourselves against backward mindsets. What muslims do in their own countries has no bearing on our aspirations for our country.

I also have an interesting but irrelevant story.:) When the priest comes into the classroom*, and asks the catholic children to stand up to say a prayer, 21 of my kids stay sitting. 5 stand up to pray.
It's farcical.

*an outdated practice in itself.

#15, A moral programme would be the most important thing for me. Having said that, whether practising or not, in name, we are still largely a Christian country, the majority of whose citizens are baptised Catholic.

That's fudging my question.:)

If the moral aspect is the most important part, would you be happy for our schools to follow muslim, jewish, buddhist, scientologist or hindu programs, as long as they didn't go heavy on the religious stuff and focused on morals?

scifi77

overmantle wrote: »

#15, A moral programme would be the most important thing for me. Having said that, whether practising or not, in name, we are still largely a Christian country, the majority of whose citizens are baptised Catholic.

Mind you, I had an interesting conversation with one Muslim parent a few years ago, who was making a pretty unrealistic request (Any and all realistic requests are readily, willingly and happily accommodated). I asked him if I went to his country and brought my children to be educated there and made such a request, what would the response be? He was absolutely horrified and readily admitted that my children would NOT be accepted there. He was almost sick at the thought of such a request being made in HIS country. So, the inclusiveness, welcoming attitude and accommodation that currently exist in Irish schools (most of which happen to be Catholic in name) for children of all faiths and none, is to be celebrated and acknowledged.

I have been reading this thread and having sampled both the ET and RC school systems with my kids, I find I have top agree with overmantle. Originally, I thought ET would be the answer to all my problems. Without boring you all, it definitely wasn't. We switched to a Catholic school, which we had originally decided against, in favour of ET. We had the idea that it would be OTT, biased, you name it, that was the preconceived idea we had and we weren't going there.

Since we changed to the Catholic school, although our kids are not practising, we have found it a breath of fresh air. Our preconceived ideas were unfounded (totally) and when I think back, it was very much a case of ....the grass is always greener.... Well from my experience, it's not.

scifi77

overmantle wrote: »

Pixied, this may be the situation in some Dublin schools, where there is huge demand for places. It is NOT the situation in many other schools.

I'm definitely with Mat Cauthon on this one in that it is only as much of a biggie as you choose to make it or to perceive it. The analogy of Ancient Greece and Zeus may not have been the best one to use but thousands of existing non-Catholic parents, up and down the country, are thrilled with the schools they attend, even though the Denomination of those schools happens to be Catholic.

I wonder how familiar some of the scaremongerers really are with the regular primary school of 2010/11? To listen to some, one could be forgiven for thinking that bible bashers are pounding the corridors throughout the day. This is NOT the case. I have several friends (atheists, muslims, and other faiths) whose kids attend 'catholic' schools and although some may have had reservations beforehand, all are thrilled with the schools and none have any reservations now.Hth.

When I read this, I recognised myself, about 5 or 6 years ago! I had the notion of the bible bashers pounding the corridors. I was wrong. We live and learn. If people had told me 6 years ago that I would be where I am now, I would have told them to have their heads examined.

thebullkf

#15 wrote: »

Religion is not a part of the state curriculum, but there are religious programs that are taught in faith-ethos schools.

so?.... we're a catholic country.....

Ireland is not a catholic country.

i think you'll find it is....

It is a democratic republic that aspires to treat all faiths equally.

It just so happens that the vast majority of the population are catholics. Even then, most of those catholics seem to be fairly lax in their adherence to church rules

thus as a democracy, (in its simplest form) means majority rules..if you lived in a muslim country,that incidently was a democracy,the same rules apply..

There is no reason for the state not to actually ensure that state schools are places where one faith is not promoted over others.

The whole set up your own schools argument is a bit tiresome. Not everyone has the time to undertake such projects.

the state can't provide for eveyone's belief's,but it does try,based on demand.... the demand is currently Catholic majority... if people feel strongly enough about 'such projects' then change will come.

Well, it is a major problem for him/her, and shouldn't be dismissed just because others are happy to accept the current farcical set-up.

i never dismissed anybody,i just stated the facts

i've no issue, as millions others don't with religion being taught in schools, school is a small part of the day, religion classes even less so,one can always opt out of it,also in its simplest form religion teaches temperance,respect,collaboration and love for fellow man...its a good thing , no?

i understand it also teaches subservience,idolatry,and a myriad of other things i don't agree with, but hey- I decide whts relevant....as does EVERYONE ELSE....
the Zeus arguement is just as false,as its your intepretation that really matter's...

#15 wrote: »

That's missing the point though.



Would you be happy if we switched the catholic program with a muslim program (for example) as long as the emphasis was on morality?

Would you genuinely not mind?

I would, if i lived in a muslim country...... you sound like you wouldn't ....

thebullkf

#15 wrote: »

It's an interesting story but not really relevant.

why?... because it disagrees with your idea's its anecdotal evidence.
it should be treated as thus.. not dismissed...

We should not judge ourselves against backward mindsets. What muslims do in their own countries has no bearing on our aspirations for our country.

whats backwards.... Muslim country's? i mean after all one could easily insert
Non-Denom. instead of Muslim in that sentence... we are a Catholic/Christian country/Society/Democracy.. i for one minute don't believe muslim schools would admit Christian Students who denounced the muslim faith...yet we do..its a sign of temperance.

I also have an interesting but irrelevant story.:) When the priest comes into the classroom*, and asks the catholic children to stand up to say a prayer, 21 of my kids stay sitting. 5 stand up to pray.
It's farcical.

*an outdated practice in itself.

why is farcical?... were the Priest to come in and DEMAND everyone stand up and pray regardless of race/creed/religion that would be farcical..

That's fudging my question.:)

If the moral aspect is the most important part, would you be happy for our schools to follow muslim, jewish, buddhist, scientologist or hindu programs, as long as they didn't go heavy on the religious stuff and focused on morals?

no, not our schools..... because ours is a catholic society.

philologos

thebullkf - We're becoming a pluralism if we're not already one. A lot of people believe in Christ, of many different Christian traditions not just Catholics. Then of course we have non-believers and other religious minorities. The education system will need to change eventually.

The way I can see this happening is having both faith and secular schools and allow parents to choose which they'd like their kids to go to according to demand.

Faith schools being schools which taught a faith dimension in the every day functionality of the school. Secular schools being ones where this wasn't provided. Quite simple.

We can't work assuming that everyone is a Roman Catholic because this is no longer the case.

thebullkf

Jakkass wrote: »

thebullkf - We're becoming a pluralism if we're not already one. A lot of people believe in Christ, of many different Christian traditions not just Catholics. Then of course we have non-believers and other religious minorities. The education system will need to change eventually.

agreed.

The way I can see this happening is having both faith and secular schools and allow parents to choose which they'd like their kids to go to according to demand.

their is already a demand..demand is mainly Catholic/Christian.

Faith schools being schools which taught a faith dimension in the every day functionality of the school. Secular schools being ones where this wasn't provided. Quite simple.

simple in theory only. so which faith is taught in your idea of faith schools??...the majority?

if so this is already the case.

also people have forgotten a lot of schools were set up via Christian means as a way of educating the poor and those who normally couldn't/wouldn't have access to an education. An education based on reason,forgiveness,strength and humility.

We can't work assuming that everyone is a Roman Catholic because this is no longer the case.

we're not....we're not still teaching religon for tradition purposes,but rather for the will of the majority.

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

D4RK ONION

thebullkf wrote: »

their is already a demand..demand is mainly Catholic/Christian.

...

we're not....we're not still teaching religon for tradition purposes,but rather for the will of the majority.

Perhaps you missed the Irish Times poll this year where a majority of the Irish people want the Catholic Church to give up control of Primary Schools.

Irish Times poll wrote:

When asked about the issue, 61 per cent of people said the church should give up control of the school system, 28 per cent said it should maintain its position and 11 per cent had no opinion on the matter.

So your assertion that the continued teaching of religion for traditional purposes is for "the will of the majority" is incorrect.

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

I sincerely doubt that (A) if changes were to come about they would be as draconian as to cease religious education altogether and (B) that people would be so furious. A minority perhaps.

overmantle

scifi77 wrote: »

I have been reading this thread and having sampled both the ET and RC school systems with my kids, I find I have top agree with overmantle. Originally, I thought ET would be the answer to all my problems. Without boring you all, it definitely wasn't. We switched to a Catholic school, which we had originally decided against, in favour of ET. We had the idea that it would be OTT, biased, you name it, that was the preconceived idea we had and we weren't going there.

Since we changed to the Catholic school, although our kids are not practising, we have found it a breath of fresh air. Our preconceived ideas were unfounded (totally) and when I think back, it was very much a case of ....the grass is always greener.... Well from my experience, it's not.

All too often, people who feel strongly about something and later find that they may have been overzealous in their condemnation of a particular system, can be very slow to come back and admit that. Scifi77, you are to be commended for your honesty.

As regards the results of a particular question asked in a poll, it's a well known fact that results always depend on the way in which (and the context in which) that question is asked. Fact is that the majority of citizens in this country choose to baptise their children Catholic in 2010, so we are still largely a Catholic country, which is an inclusive and accommodating.

philologos

thebullkf wrote: »

agreed.

their is already a demand..demand is mainly Catholic/Christian.

A lot of it is, and a lot of it isn't.

thebullkf wrote: »

simple in theory only. so which faith is taught in your idea of faith schools??...the majority?

By population demand. So in towns mostly your Roman Catholic / Church of Ireland, and probably a secular school. In cities you'll probably get Islamic and Hindu schools as well as more secular schools.

if so this is already the case.

thebullkf wrote: »

also people have forgotten a lot of schools were set up via Christian means as a way of educating the poor and those who normally couldn't/wouldn't have access to an education. An education based on reason,forgiveness,strength and humility.

Society has changed. Christianity isn't obsolete, but there are non-Christians amongst us who should be given the freedom to educate their children in a secular school.

thebullkf wrote: »

we're not....we're not still teaching religon for tradition purposes,but rather for the will of the majority.

I was educated in CofI schools, I was educated with peers of differing faiths. Faith formation took place outside the classroom, basic teaching about Christianity did take place in the class room and in assembly on Fridays from what I remember of primary.

As for it not being about tradition. Irish religion is largely about tradition. We should move towards a faith that thinks rather than one that's just done because of family associations.

thebullkf wrote: »

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

To a few it's irrelevant. To a lot of us its still relevant. There is no point forcing non-religious parents to raise their children Christian. They will become Christians if they want to, and in a society largely influenced by Christianity they will learn about the Gospel at some point.

D4RK ONION: I don't think they should give up all primary schools, rather secular, Islamic and other alternatives should be provided by the Government alongside the faith school system largely by the RCC, Church of Ireland, Presbyterians and Methodists.

#15

Haven't time to give you a really detailed response thebulkf. Just a few points:

- I will say that those catholics who support the current system are making a mockery of their faith.
Would you not prefer to have a smaller number of faith schools - in return for knowing that the students and teachers were genuinely of that faith? Instead of the curent set-up, where catholic schools are forced to act as catch-all institutions, diluting their own ethos in the process.
No one wins in this scenario.

- Ireland is not a catholic country. It's a democratic republic where the majority faith is catholicism.
There's a subtle but important difference in the two statements.

also people have forgotten a lot of schools were set up via Christian means as a way of educating the poor and those who normally couldn't/wouldn't have access to an education.

Partly. But you are naive if you think they are the only reasons for religious education.
It was also an easy way of securing a steady supply of unquestioning followers. Future customers, to be cynical about it.

If schools were to announce in January that they were to cease teaching religion due to its irrelevance in todays society,there would be nationwide protest and demonstrations.... due to the majority.

You have no basis for that claim whatsoever.

We've seen a sex abuse crisis, an IMF bailout, banking scandals, etc., and we haven't seen nationwide protests.

What on earth makes you think this country would become even more animated by education reform? It's unrealistic in the extreme.

thebullkf

D4RK ONION wrote: »

Perhaps you missed the Irish Times poll this year where a majority of the Irish people want the Catholic Church to give up control of Primary Schools.

a majority of whom???.Irish Times readers?... where you asked?...i wasn't/didn't participate.. also its quite telling that it was in the wake of the Murphy report.

Also i might add- i never said anything about control .... i'm talking about teaching of religon in schools where non catholics attend,and/or are offended by it..

So your assertion that the continued teaching of religion for traditional purposes is for "the will of the majority" is incorrect.

See above^^ ... i also said we weren't teaching cos of tradition,please quote me correctly if you are quoting me thats twice in your first two responses.

I sincerely doubt that (A) if changes were to come about they would be as draconian as to cease religious education altogether

i don't think so either,iwas trying to illustrate a point.

and (B) that people would be so furious. A minority perhaps.

well maybe a minority of IT readers perhaps.,(incidentally its not even the most popular paper a la Sunday Indo.)

#15

overmantle wrote: »

Fact is that the majority of citizens in this country choose to baptise their children Catholic in 2010, so we are still largely a Catholic country, which is an inclusive and accommodating.

That is an unreliable measurement tool.

Baptism is as much a cultural as religious tradition at this point. You forgot to say that a sizeable proportion of those baptised children won't see the inside of a church until the day of their first confessions.

There's a difference between cultural catholicism and actual catholicism. Church attendance stats would surely be a more reliable measurement of the numbers of practising catholics?

thebullkf

Jakkass wrote: »

Society has changed. Christianity isn't obsolete, but there are non-Christians amongst us who should be given the freedom to educate their children in a secular school.

you are being given freedom to choose...

As for it not being about tradition. Irish religion is largely about tradition. We should move towards a faith that thinks rather than one that's just done because of family associations.

Irish religion?...you mean catholicism? .... i don't understand you're second point above?

To a few it's irrelevant. To a lot of us its still relevant. There is no point forcing non-religious parents to raise their children Christian. They will become Christians if they want to, and in a society largely influenced by Christianity they will learn about the Gospel at some point.

nobody's forcing anybody to do anything...... you have a choice...would you have such a choice elsewhere?

#15

thebullkf wrote: »

a majority of whom???.Irish Times readers?... where you asked?...i wasn't/didn't participate.. also its quite telling that it was in the wake of the Murphy report.

No, it's an MRBI poll, so it's a representative sample of the adult population. You hardly think it's just IT readers that were surveyed?:eek:

Secondly, are people supposed to just ignore the murphy report and not let it influence their opinions? I know the truth might bother some people, but it can't be swept under the carpet.

thebullkf

#15 wrote: »

That is an unreliable measurement tool.

Baptism is as much a cultural as religious tradition at this point. You forgot to say that a sizeable proportion of those baptised children won't see the inside of a church until the day of their first confessions.

funny how that isn't and a newspaper published poll is ???:rolleyes:

pathetic imo.

There's a difference between cultural catholicism and actual catholicism. Church attendance stats would surely be a more reliable measurement of the numbers of practising catholics?

do you have any stats?? people don't go to mass for tradition,they go to practise their faith.
the only Church i'll be in this xmas is in mary st....supping pints;)

philologos

thebullkf wrote: »

you are being given freedom to choose...

Many parents can't choose at the minute between RCC or secular school.

thebullkf wrote: »

Irish religion?...you mean catholicism? .... i don't understand you're second point above?

Irish religion goes beyond Catholicism. I'd include other Irish forms of Protestantism. It's very ritualistic. It's more about going through the motions rather than a thought conviction. It was a realisation I kind of had in my teenage years that made me see this quite clearly.

thebullkf wrote: »

nobody's forcing anybody to do anything...... you have a choice...would you have such a choice elsewhere?

There is no choice for many parents due to a lack of alternatives. That's the point being made. In other countries there is a better choice. In the UK for example. In other countries like France there is no choice because all schools are secular. I don't really support that either. I support the middle ground of having both.