Was Jesus Christ pro-choice?

Festus

So many people claim to be both Christian and pro-choice or pro-abortion.
To me that is an impossible position.

Psalms 126

3 Behold the inheritance of the Lord are children: the reward, the fruit of the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you..."

Judges 13

5 Because thou shalt conceive and bear a son, and no razor shall touch his head: for he shall be a Nazarite of God, from his infancy, and from his mother's womb, and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines.

Luke 1:44 "For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears the infant in my womb leaped for joy."

Psalm 83: 3-4
"Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

Matthew 25: 35-40 "‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "



I invite those who call themselves Christian to present the theological case that Jesus Christ is pro-choice and pro- abortion.

Fanny Cradock

I'm not aware of any particular verse that categorically objects to abortion. However, I would think it near impossible to take the NT as a whole (maybe one can point to specific verses that can be applied to the topic) and conclude that abortion - and I'm taking the meaning of this to be the intentional destruction of a human embryo - would have been approved of by Christ.

Festus

If that is the case how then is it possibe for any Christian to claim that abortion in any form, the destruction of life before birth, is accptable and hence hold a pro-choice position?

DeVore

I dont think even the most harden pro-choice person would agree with abortion the day before birth.

The argument tends to be over the line before/after which the foetus is/isnt considered a human life.

Also, while you have every right not to be abused or insulted on Boards, you dont have the right to say "only people who are X (christian, white, irish etc etc) are allowed post on my thread. The thread is open to all to post so long as they do so civilly.

DeV.

Fanny Cradock

You will have to ask them. But at a guess, I think it is down to subjective interpretation. We all excel at that.

Fanny Cradock

DeVore wrote: »

I dont think even the most harden pro-choice person would agree with abortion the day before birth.

I wouldn't be sure of that. I seem to recall that Peter Singer (it might have been some other ethicist so I conceded that I might be doing Singer a disservice) is of the opinion that anywhere up to 1-year-old is a reasonable length of time to expunge the mistake.

I don't consider this to be anything other than mad ramblings that just about every person would be appalled at.

DeVore wrote: »

Also, while you have every right not to be abused or insulted on Boards, you dont have the right to say "only people who are X (christian, white, irish etc etc) are allowed post on my thread. The thread is open to all to post so long as they do so civilly.

DeV.

I tend to agree. However, we have for some time had an informal agreement with regulars where a thread that is predicated upon being a Christian is reserved for Christians i.e. those in a position to answer. This arose form a time when there was quite a bit of derailment from some posters who weren't really interested in having a discussion, only ending it. In fairness this agreement usually gets broken by the end of the first page, and usually without any incident or complaint.

Festus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I wouldn't be sure of that. I seem to recall that Peter Singer (it might have been some other ethicist so I conceded that I might be doing Singer a disservice) is of the opinion that anywhere up to 1-year-old is a reasonable length of time to expunge the mistake.

There is some merit to it. A complete ban on abortion and a referendum on infanticide.

If the refernedum results indicate there is stomach for infanticide so be it and the law can be written accordingly

philologos

FC - There are verses that ascribe personhood to the unborn though which is crucially relevant. Even if it doesn't say explicitly "Thou shalt not abort", it does give credence that life should be valued.

Fanny Cradock

Do you have 'em to hand?

dvae

We are known to God even before we are born.
I would say Jesus is neither pro-abortion or pro-choice.
To be pro-choice you would be on the side of (continue or
terminate a pregnancy). I'm sure Jesus would have nothing to do with
abortion or discontinuing a pregnancy.
Jeremiah 1:5 is a good example of God knowing us before birth.
Another scripture that i like is Psalm 139:16

Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

DeVore

Since I derailed this thread, I've taken the time to clean it and move the derailing posts to a new thread. Sorry 'bout that. Reopened for its original discussion.

DeV.

philologos

FC - Festus has quoted one there Jeremiah being known by the Lord before He was born. Psalm 139 also says that God formed us in the womb. In Psalm 22 where Jesus' crucifixion is prophesied it says that God's righteousness will be preached to a people "yet unborn". None the less they are regarded as people worthy of God's grace.

There are also more which I'd need to have a good look through my Bible for.

DeVore

I think you are stretching the meaning of "yet unborn"... I would consider that to include you and me at the time (ie: people who have yet to be conceived, potentially hundreds of years later).

DeV.

Winty

Festus wrote: »

So many people claim to be both Christian and pro-choice or pro-abortion.

Could you name one?
I see all in the Christians gang as "down with that sort of thing"

Festus

DeVore wrote: »

Since I derailed this thread, I've taken the time to clean it and move the derailing posts to a new thread. Sorry 'bout that. Reopened for its original discussion.

DeV.

Can you make it clear then that you started that thread and not me. Please.

Festus

Winty wrote: »

Could you name one?
I see all in the Christians gang as "down with that sort of thing"

It is possible but would require a cross post. Suggest you peruse the other thread to see who has declared themselves as what.

Onesimus

''Thou shalt not abort'' falls under the commandment ''thou shalt not kill''. From the Moment of Conception the soul is infused into both body and soul and science back in 1981 proved that life begins at conception.

Christians can not hold the abortive view at all ( nor can secularists but thats a debate for another thread and takes us off topic ). the proof that life begins in the womb can be seen with ( seeing as its advent ) Jesus been conceived in the womb of Mary and John the Baptist leaping for joy in the womb of his mother.

End of thread I suppose.

FISMA

DeVore wrote: »

I dont think even the most harden pro-choice person would agree with abortion the day before birth.

Sorry Dev,
Could not disagree more.

Three words: partial birth abortion.

If this isn't murder, then what is?

Keep part of a baby, clearly developed baby, one which could survive ex-utero, in-utero, and scramble brains.

That's exactly what they defend.

Those "harden pro-choice" types of which you speak defend it greatly in America.

Additionally, isn't sex selection practiced in some countries shortly after birth? Deliver and then do nothing - if it is a girl?

Also, did I miss where Festus was excluding anyone?

Festus wrote: »

I invite those who call themselves Christian to present the theological case that Jesus Christ is pro-choice and pro- abortion.

Sounds like a call for someone that: (a) claims to be a Christian and (b) believes in abortion.

I believe Festus is claiming that the being a true Christian is mutually exclusive with believing in abortion.

I agree.

Winty wrote: »

Could you name one?

Here's two: Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

Go to America. You will see Democrats such as the Kennedy's and John Kerry going to communion, going to mass, getting a great photo op with the Priest and the Christmas tree, and then voting for and ensuring that abortion be legal on demand.

Kennedy also voted Nay on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003.
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00051

newmug

I'd imagine Jesus would be pro-life. He is the ultimate non-judgementalist. Turn the other cheek, take anything but revenge, healing the soldiers ear who was arresting Him to bring Him to death.

He's not called the "Lamb" of God for nothing. Live and let live, let love abound.

Fanny Cradock

newmug wrote: »

I'd imagine Jesus would be pro-life. He is the ultimate non-judgementalist. Turn the other cheek, take anything but revenge, healing the soldiers ear who was arresting Him to bring Him to death.

He's not called the "Lamb" of God for nothing. Live and let live, let love abound.

What? Have you actually read the NT at all?

newmug

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What? Have you actually read the NT at all?

I have indeed. You're confusing the message of God the Father (the eye-for-an-eye-stuff) with that of Jesus Christ. I know what I'm talking about, I'm Catholic;)

Fanny Cradock

newmug wrote: »

I know what I'm talking about, I'm Catholic;)

That you are Roman Catholic is neither here nor there. If you think that Jesus' profoundly counter-cultural message can be boiled down to some post-modern "live and let live" non-judgemental mush, it appears as if you have little idea what you are talking about.

newmug

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That you are Roman Catholic is neither here nor there. If you think that Jesus' profoundly counter-cultural message can be boiled down to some post-modern "live and let live" non-judgemental mush, it appears as if you have little idea what you are talking about.

Put your tights back on there missus! I said, in relation to whether or not Jesus would have been pro-life or pro-abortion, I think, in fact I KNOW he would have been pro-life. There may be an eternal lake of fire waiting for evildoers, but Jesus would not have endorsed murder, nevermind baby-murder, for all the souls in existence.

Fanny Cradock

newmug wrote: »

Put your tights back on there missus!

It's not often I'm found in tights

newmug

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's not often I'm found in tights

Plowman

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PDN

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Pantomime?