Benitez Sacked?

DOC09UNAM

x in the city wrote: »

well condiering we were talking about torres being a by product from the rafa benitez foundation, i figured that it would be quite clear the context i meant was that excessive were to mean rather expensive..

and not a result of growing up under the father figure of rafa :rolleyes:

But you said what they paid for him was excessive, which it wasn't, considering when he is fit and firing, he is one of the best strikers on the planet.

101001

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

The fee paid for torres was expensive - yes it was.

The fee paid for torres was excessive - no it wasn't.

The fee paid for torres was expensive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny
The fee paid for torres was excessive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny

and that is my 'opinion'. Torres' fee has proved now to be Benitez shrewdest buy both in value on the field and as a commercial value. He has paid his fee times over. You are however entitiled to think his transfer fee was expensive/excessive. Choose which adjective you will, overpriced?

Forget football, semantics is the beautiful game

DOC09UNAM

101001 wrote: »

The fee paid for torres was expensive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny
The fee paid for torres was excessive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny

and that is my 'opinion'. Torres' fee has proved now to be Benitez shrewdest buy both in value on the field and as a commercial value. He has paid his fee times over. You are however entitiled to think his transfer fee was expensive/excessive. Choose which adjective you will, overpriced?

Forget football, semantics is the beautiful game

I'm agreeing it's worth every penny?

But 20+ million is fairly expensive.

But as has been said, worth every penny of that fee and will continue to pay it back with goals.

101001

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

I'm agreeing it's worth every penny?

But 20+ million is fairly excessive.

But as has been said, worth every penny of that fee and will continue to pay it back with goals.

FYP. Im definitely coming across as a dick right now. I might not agree with x in the city but he can use words he wants to express his opinion. I should never have got involved.... I love you

DOC09UNAM

101001 wrote: »

FYP. Im definitely coming across as a dick right now. I might not agree with x in the city but he can use words he wants to express his opinion. I should never have got involved.... I love you

Except excessive doesn't work there, because as you said also, he was worth the money?

101001

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Except excessive doesn't work there, because as you said also, he was worth the money?

Yes he was worth the money. I never said otherwise... ever! The word change does work. Just look at your last post and my response (the FYP) it says the same thing. A poster tried to belittle another by saying his use of a word was wrong. My own idiocy made me try to right that wrong... I was an idiot

~Rebel~

101001 wrote: »

The fee paid for torres was expensive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny
The fee paid for torres was excessive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny

and that is my 'opinion'. Torres' fee has proved now to be Benitez shrewdest buy both in value on the field and as a commercial value. He has paid his fee times over. You are however entitiled to think his transfer fee was expensive/excessive. Choose which adjective you will, overpriced?

Forget football, semantics is the beautiful game

imo, they are not generally interchangeable words.

They can be at times and still convey the same message, but they have a different principal meaning.

Using the example we're currently looking at;
Expensive cost simply means a lot of money.
Excessive cost means too much money.

Whether or not he was expensive is subjective, as we will all have different opinions on what that would mean. Generally, it fits in with what is in the higher price/quality bracket for the type of purchase being made, and given that at the time that was quite a lot to spend, I think it's fair to say it was expensive. We looked at a young talent with great potential and paid as such.

Was it excessive however? No it was not, on two fronts; First, it was around the going rate for a talent of his age and level of ability. Second, in hindsight we can see that the expense was warranted and the likely return on investment has comfortably grown.

<edit> to clarify this point;
The fee paid for torres was expensive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny

Something can be expensive and also be good value. Indeed it often follows that the expensive things offer the better value. For example expensive shoes at twice the price of another pair but which last 4 times longer.

101001

~Rebel~ wrote: »

imo, they are not generally interchangeable words.

They can be at times and still convey the same message, but they have a different principal meaning.

Using the example we're currently looking at;
Expensive cost simply means a lot of money.
Excessive cost means too much money.

Whether or not he was expensive is subjective, as we will all have different opinions on what that would mean. Generally, it fits in with what is in the higher price/quality bracket for the type of purchase being made, and given that at the time that was quite a lot to spend, I think it's fair to say it was expensive. We looked at a young talent with great potential and paid as such.

Was it excessive however? No it was not, on two fronts; First, it was around the going rate for a talent of his age and level of ability. Second, in hindsight we can see that the expense was warranted and the likely return on investment has comfortably grown.

<edit> to clarify this point;
The fee paid for torres was expensive- no it wasn't he was worth every penny

Something can be expensive and also be good value. Indeed it often follows that the expensive things offer the better value. For example expensive shoes at twice the price of another pair but which last 4 times longer.

We're wildly off topic but sometimes maybe clarifying our meaning helps us communicate more effectively, thus understanding (lame attempt at qualifying yet another ot post)

If we deal with the subject at the time

Was it excessive however? No it was not, on two fronts; First, it was around the going rate for a talent of his age and level of ability

Now, im dealing with at the time of buying, the future is irelevant. At the time of buying a price was paid. If it is the going rate for the player and I am happy to pay the price (as you said), I pay. Another person thinks Ive paid too much for my player... he was too 'high priced' (expensive) Ive paid excessively for him (too high priced). Im not dealing with worth or value simply a number paid. The opinion adds worth/value

the post i stood up for (and im paraphrasing) went excessive=expensive (while not empiricially true he was trying to explain what he meant) Someone came along and pointed out that this was not true.*

I understood the original post and its word in the context it was meant, another poster tried to demean him by saying his use of words was completely wrong. Sometimes posts like that get to me as a person tries to discount an opinion simply by a misuse of word. In a conversation and with eye contact, body language and other communicative tools the discussion would have progressed differently.


*If I was to put this mathematically I would have used the symbol greater than or equal to. Excessive is greater than or equal to expensive

SantryRed

Didn't realise I entered the grammar forum.

~Rebel~

SantryRed wrote: »

Didn't realise I entered the grammar forum.

Meh it's late and the topic was done to death before the sacking was even done.

Besides, as 101001 said earlier, sometimes you can't beat a good semantics debate!

The Muppet

Rafael Benitez has said he wants Inter Milan to play "better" football than under his predecessor, Jose Mourinho.




Benitez takes over from Mourinho on the back of a Treble-winning season as Inter - two-time winners of the European Cup in the 1960s - clinched the Champions League for the first time in their history.
Yet, while Benitez can do little to improve on Mourinho's record in terms of silverware, he is convinced he can make improvements to the way the players perform.
"I want to understand whether this team still has the desire to learn," he told Gazzetta dello Sport. "We are still not complete, but the players that there are have shown that they have the right mentality, attitude and predisposition to do what I ask.
"I would like to try to play better, with the team playing higher up the pitch with greater ball possession. The team has also asked me for this. It will not be an easy job.
"I studied Inter and I saw that they won above all because of violent counter attacks. They didn't keep the ball a lot, but played it forward quickly when they got possession.
"I like to teach football, speak a lot and make the players understand what they have to do."
Asked how he would cope with comparisons to Mourinho, he said: "I believe that we can do something better, like I already said, on a level of play."

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=809408&sec=europe&cc=5739

How did that work out?:D

whatever else you just have to be impressed by the guys ego. Talk about creating a stick to beat yourself with.

MIN2511

Just heard on tv3 that he got 11million????????? For 6 months? Jaysus

Mister men

MIN2511 wrote: »

Just heard on tv3 that he got 11million????????? For 6 months? Jaysus

He deserves every penny.

everdead.ie

Mister men wrote: »

He deserves every penny.

He really doesn't he was under performing with one of the best teams in Europe injuries or no injuries he is expected to still be in the title race at this stage and to perform better in Europe too.

£11m ?

That would be about £15m in 6 months.

Life's a bítch.

pickarooney

A fee cannot be expensive; this is not proper use of English. A fee, a cost or a price can be high, excessive or reasonable. The player or his contract can be cheap,expensive or good value.

The cost of purchasing Torres was excessive (or not)
Torres himself was expensive (or not)

Chardee MacDennis

did rafa fcuk a load of posters birds or something? the level of bitterness is hilarious...

BastardPrince

BastardPrince wrote: »

did rafa fcuk a load of posters birds or something? the level of bitterness is hilarious...

If it wasn't for threads like this we mightn't know the bitter folk

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/shu0265l.jpg

SlickRic

Mister men wrote: »

He deserves every penny.

i've defended Rafa in my time, but no, no he does not deserve anything close to that amount of money.

MIN2511

Mister men wrote: »

He deserves every penny.

It's costs like these that ruin football clubs....

£11 million is excessive! I always rated him as a top class manager but after the last season with Liverpool and then Inter, i just see him as an average manager.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Guy:Incognito

SlickRic wrote: »

i've defended Rafa in my time, but no, no he does not deserve anything close to that amount of money.

Of course he does. They gave him a contract for X amoutn per week for x time frame. If they decide they want rid of him by cancellign the cantract they both signed then yes , he deserves it.

SlickRic

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Of course he does. They gave him a contract for X amoutn per week for x time frame. If they decide they want rid of him by cancellign the cantract they both signed then yes , he deserves it.

not to get into a pedantic grammar debate again...

but someone being entitled to £11m or whatever, doesn't mean he deserves to be entitled to it.

Fuhrer

BastardPrince wrote: »

did rafa fcuk a load of posters birds or something? the level of bitterness is hilarious...

Nowhere near as hilarious as the almost god like worship of him around here.

101001

MIN2511 wrote: »

It's costs like these that ruin football clubs....

£11 million is excessive!

I quite agree, its an expensive price to pay. An excessive price indeed... But its Inters fault, if this is what the contract dictates then thats what Inter have to pay. I hope Clubs start to wise up to these excessive wastes of money as its an expense they can ill afford.

Rafa is singlehandedly making the internet a funner place to be

Chardee MacDennis

Fuhrer wrote: »

Nowhere near as hilarious as the almost god like worship of him around here.

where is this god like worship that you speak of? some people defend his record when its attack unjustly, yes absolutely god like... :rolleyes:

can you quote these posts with this "god-like worship" i seem to be missing?

blinding

Inter Milan found out in less than six months what it took Liverpool a very long time to learn.

Benitez is not capable of managing at the top level. It is truly amazing that a club that had managers of the calibre of Shankly and Paisley took so long to work out that Benitez was not up to the job.

Some Liverpool supporters will probably want him back:D:D:D.

He is not fit to manage a great club like Liverpool.

He was forever chopping and changing the team:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How many signings did he make say in the region of 6/9 million that were worth that or added value (few if any) and he bought a good few of those.

He paid 18 million for Glen Johnson (Holy God)

He wanted to replace Xavi Alonzo with Gareth Barry (Holy,holy God)

You know its the most glaring sympton of how far the great club that was/is Liverpool have fallen that some people consider this guy a good Liverpool manager.


I actually feel very sorry for Stepehen Gerard that he has been so cursed as to have had Benitez and Houlier as his club managers for such a large part of his career.

It would have been interesting to see if, say Hiddink or Mourinho had managed Gerard would they have got more out of a player that showed such outstanding potential as a young player.

Handsome Bob

blinding wrote: »

He paid 18 million for Glen Johnson (Holy God)

You forgot to mention that the Crouch deal was factored into that, so it was less than £18m.

He wanted to replace Xabi Alonso with Gareth Barry (Holy,holy God)

You forgot to mention that Alonso had been performing poorly for a long time, not to mention that Alonso probably decided to leave once he refused to travel for an Inter game in the CL.

FYP btw.

Fuhrer

BastardPrince wrote: »

where is this god like worship that you speak of? some people defend his record when its attack unjustly, yes absolutely god like... :rolleyes:

can you quote these posts with this "god-like worship" i seem to be missing?

Last page, someone saying that he was worth every penny of his 15 million pay off.

Fuhrer

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You forgot to mention that the Crouch deal was factored into that, so it was less than £18m.



You forgot to mention that Alonso had been performing poorly for a long time, not to mention that Alonso probably decided to leave once he refused to travel for an Inter game in the CL.

FYP btw.

Johnson cost 18 million, not less, 18 million.


And in Alonsos own words, he wanted to leave because Rafa tried to sell him.

101001

blinding wrote: »

It would have been interesting to see if, say Hiddink or Mourinho had managed Gerard would they have got more out of a player that showed such outstanding potential as a young player.

Are you saying gerrard never reached his true potential as a player? WoW! Just check out his individual awards as a player Repeatedly Uefa team of the year. Repeatedly voted top ten players in the world and europe. I shudder to think what kind of Imortal he couldve become.

He paid 18 million for Glen Johnson (Holy God)

Johnson transfer is more complicated than that. Price included what Portsmouth owed Liverpool, this was money Liverpool would never see again... as witnessed by what happened them. But this has been done to Death.

Liverpool fired Benitez at what was genuinely the clubs first opportunity. You cant fire a man after the season he had the year before. Highest points total yada yada, year before that CL final. First opportunity was 7th and no trophies... Theres the door Rafa

everdead.ie

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You forgot to mention that the Crouch deal was factored into that, so it was less than £18m..

no just because the crouch deal was included it doesn't mean you didn't pay £18m in reality I don't know who sorted that deal out but it was a shambles at most he should of been bought for the remaining debt they owed you which would have been about £10m but instead they topped the deal up by £8m?? That's crazy !!!!

pickarooney

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You forgot to mention that the Crouch deal was factored into that, so it was less than £18m.

The only thing worse than the grammar in this thread is the maths...

SlickRic

i love how some people are still so simplistic about Benitez's credentials as manager.

he's not an elite manager, he's not a shít manager, but a very good manager, who did a good job at Liverpool for 4 years, and a very good job at Valencia before that.

he gets good-very good players playing to their maximum more than often not; that's his main strength, and the positive mark of his tenures at those clubs.

he's the manager Roy Hodgson wishes he was, and portrays himself to be.

and blinding....there's so many inaccuracies, generalisations and media spin in that post, i wouldn't know where to start picking it apart.

Handsome Bob

pickarooney wrote: »

The only thing worse than the grammar in this thread is the maths...

Lol yeah okay pal.

the untitled user

SlickRic wrote: »

he's not an elite manager, he's not a shít manager, but a very good manager, who did a good job at Liverpool for 4 years, and a very good job at Valencia before that.

Tbh, if he was a very good manager he would have done better with the current crop at Inter than he has.

He's in the decent-good bracket for me, generally very good at coaching and organizing a team on the field, but when it comes to the off field matters such as player morale, activity in the transfer market and organizing the backroom he's average.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

ilovelamp2000

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There isn't one. Because it's not true.

He did give some money to charities in Liverpool, but as usual his fans overstate everything he did.

ilovelamp2000

BastardPrince wrote: »

where is this god like worship that you speak of? some people defend his record when its attack unjustly, yes absolutely god like... :rolleyes:

can you quote these posts with this "god-like worship" i seem to be missing?

Any one of yours, Mister men, niallo27 or Mr. Alan's.

The Rafa Pack.

Dues Bellator

Originally Posted by pickarooney
The only thing worse than the grammar in this thread is the maths..

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Lol yeah okay pal.

uh oh detention for you ,lol

blinding

101001 wrote: »

Are you saying gerrard never reached his true potential as a player? WoW! Just check out his individual awards as a player Repeatedly Uefa team of the year. Repeatedly voted top ten players in the world and europe. I shudder to think what kind of Imortal he couldve become.

In my opinion Gerard has not reached the heights that his early potential showed.

He is a great player but I believe that with better club managers particularly (and international) that he would have reached even greater achievements.

He has been a bit unlucky that he has never had one of the elite managers at club level. Even Capello failed at the world cup (possibly because of internal strife; Terry- captaincy- Gerard and the whole England circus that comes with world cups

Handsome Bob

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm just pointing out where Xabi in truth first decided that he was leaving, regardless of what he claims.

~Rebel~

everdead.ie wrote: »

no just because the crouch deal was included it doesn't mean you didn't pay £18m in reality I don't know who sorted that deal out but it was a shambles at most he should of been bought for the remaining debt they owed you which would have been about £10m but instead they topped the deal up by £8m?? That's crazy !!!!

Ha, imagine what Pompey would have said if pool made that offer "hey lads we'll take Johnson off you for effectively nothing?"

I think the answer would have been, 'no, we'll sell to these other people who will actually give us money, thanks.."

What you propose would make sense if there was ever a chance in hell of Pompey paying off their debts, but there wasn't. At least we got dibs on one if their best players, cause we were never going to see the crouch money any other way than by saying "we'll right off the debt if you give him to us for 8mill".

They had a lot longer standing debts than the one to LFC which were never repaid and it was no secret they were going into administration. It's probably one that will keep going for a while, but I can't see anyone getting more than a few pence in the pound of their money back, if even.

Fuhrer

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I'm just pointing out where Xabi in truth first decided that he was leaving, regardless of what he claims.

So you know Xabi better than he knows himself?

Handsome Bob

almanu wrote: »

uh oh detention for you ,lol

Whichever way you want to twist it we didn't pay £18m STRAIGHT UP for Glen Johnson, that's all I'm saying.

~Rebel~

blinding wrote: »

Inter Milan found out in less than six months what it took Liverpool a very long time to learn.

Benitez is not capable of managing at the top level. It is truly amazing that a club that had managers of the calibre of Shankly and Paisley took so long to work out that Benitez was not up to the job.

Some Liverpool supporters will probably want him back:D:D:D.

He is not fit to manage a great club like Liverpool.

He was forever chopping and changing the team:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How many signings did he make say in the region of 6/9 million that were worth that or added value (few if any) and he bought a good few of those.

He paid 18 million for Glen Johnson (Holy God)

He wanted to replace Xavi Alonzo with Gareth Barry (Holy,holy God)

You know its the most glaring sympton of how far the great club that was/is Liverpool have fallen that some people consider this guy a good Liverpool manager.


I actually feel very sorry for Stepehen Gerard that he has been so cursed as to have had Benitez and Houlier as his club managers for such a large part of his career.

It would have been interesting to see if, say Hiddink or Mourinho had managed Gerard would they have got more out of a player that showed such outstanding potential as a young player.

I feel kinda like a tabloid just threw up on me..

everdead.ie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ha, imagine what Pompey would have said if pool made that offer "hey lads we'll take Johnson off you for effectively nothing?"

I think the answer would have been, 'no, we'll sell to these other people who will actually give us money, thanks.."

What you propose would make sense if there was ever a chance in hell of Pompey paying off their debts, but there wasn't. At least we got dibs on one if their best players, cause we were never going to see the crouch money any other way than by saying "we'll right off the debt if you give him to us for 8mill".

They had a lot longer standing debts than the one to LFC which were never repaid and it was no secret they were going into administration. It's probably one that will keep going for a while, but I can't see anyone getting more than a few pence in the pound of their money back, if even.

Well if they refused Liverpool make the complaint to the premier league and they divert the tv money to Liverpool no one else would of payed 10m let alone 18

~Rebel~

everdead.ie wrote: »

Well if they refused Liverpool make the complaint to the premier league and they divert the tv money to Liverpool no one else would of payed 10m let alone 18

I believe your own club are still owed a small fortune by Pompey still, from the glut of players they brought in at one point. Honestly, by the time the Johnson thing came about, getting money from Pompey was blood from a stone, hence why they're in administration and have been (and still are) flirting with going out of existence altogether.

Effectively, pool wrote off the 10 mill debt they would never have received anyway, and then paid up to 8 mill for the player (if he meets whatever targets were in the sale contract)

everdead.ie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I believe your own club are still owed a small fortune by Pompey still, from the glut of players they brought in at one point. Honestly, by the time the Johnson thing came about, getting money from Pompey was blood from a stone, hence why they're in administration and have been (and still are) flirting with going out of existence altogether.

Effectively, pool wrote off the 10 mill debt they would never have received anyway, and then paid up to 8 mill for the player (if he meets whatever targets were in the sale contract)

Don't think we are owed anything nowmoney diverted from parachute payments took care of that but I still think whoever negotiated that deal got mugged.

101001

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ha, imagine what Pompey would have said if pool made that offer "hey lads we'll take Johnson off you for effectively nothing?"

I think the answer would have been, 'no, we'll sell to these other people who will actually give us money, thanks.."

What you propose would make sense if there was ever a chance in hell of Pompey paying off their debts, but there wasn't. At least we got dibs on one if their best players, cause we were never going to see the crouch money any other way than by saying "we'll right off the debt if you give him to us for 8mill".

They had a lot longer standing debts than the one to LFC which were never repaid and it was no secret they were going into administration. It's probably one that will keep going for a while, but I can't see anyone getting more than a few pence in the pound of their money back, if even.

That is EXACTLY! My take on the Johnson debacle. Rafa was working in an extremely weird financial environmet trying to buy players. Not having the actual cash to do so and having to make these weird complicated deals. The Aquilani transfer is anotther case in point.

Liverpool would never have seen that money for Crouch and if the possibilty even existed then the chances were extremely slim. In my opinion it was a fair enough move