Longines Czech Pilot's watch

Monty Burnz

Anyone have a notion of how much these should cost, in decent condition - the civilian, non-issued version? I have my eye on one but it looks a bit pricey - don't want to overpay if I can help it!

Wibbs

Depends on a few factors. Condition of course, originality is a must(too many have the wrong hands/redail) and age. Contrary to popular belief on this watch, they're not all prewar or even war time issue. Many if not most are actually post war(up to 1949). The mil issue marks would not be an issue for me. IMHO too many of them possess them and I strongly suspect a bit of shenanigans to pump up their value going on. Indeed I'd go for a "civilian" one myself. It's gonna drop the price(stupidly) which is good and less likely to be molested in other ways. They're also rarer as it was a special order for the Czech airforce, so not many ended up in civvie hands. In theory.

OK the diffs are as follows. They came with 3 movements. The earliest have the 15.94 15 jewel movement. Followed by the 15.24 also 15 jewel and the later runs of them have the 15.68 which is 17 jewel. Next dial types. The first are all porcelain and high quality printing at that. The next group also porcelain the printing is a bit blurred by comparison and the later ones are the usual metal printed dials. IIRC the very earliest don't have anti magnetique on the dial. Another thing to look for is the winding crown. Many have the wrong one.

So if you want a defo late 30's pre war one which should really climb in value(though they all will) then aim for the 15.94 movement with porcelain dial(the crisp text one best of all). Price? 2000 ish would be a fair retail for one of them IMHO. Late model 15.68 with metal dial, I wouldnt pay more than 1500 myself. Though they'll be looking for more.

Also contrary to popular belief they're not that rare. Oh sure they're rarer than some recent Tag "special edition", but there were IIRC over 5-8000 delivered. Many survive. I'd say you'll see 4 a month pop up in the usual places, so take your time unless its an actual bargain(maybe cos it doesnt have its mil marks). Now if someone does bring out an homage to them, especially one of the big names, if not Longines themselves, then watch their value go mad. I doubt they will though as a Longines homage would probably cost the same as an original. Though look at what happened with Pannerai.

It might help if you put up a piccie of the watch if you have one. The movement and dial should do it. That should tell you a lot.

Wibbs

Maybe this might help on the movement front

The earliest one 15.94;


Slightly later with some overlap( prewar or just started anyway) 15.24;


And the later and last ones, 15.68;


Note the gaps in serial numbers. The first are quite close together, last movement has a much later one. PS that's the correct crown on all of them.

And finally a pilot actually wearing one;

It looks the right size as the eterna one is smaller. It also looks like a Hawker Hurricane from the canopy so likely an RAF machine, so maybe a Czech pilot in one of the RAF foreign squadrons? Looks like they were cutting back on groundcrew though. Mind you he'd get to your plane in a scramble quicker than the usual lot and your kit wouldnt be stolen when you were off on a flight.

Monty Burnz

Wibbs, many thanks for the reply

Here's the watch in question:

http://img814.imageshack.us/i/longinesfront.jpg/
http://img809.imageshack.us/i/longinesback.jpg/

I asked the seller a few questions about it - does it have any problems, is it all original etc. - he never replied so I rather lost faith in him as a seller (buy the seller and all that).

Wibbs

I hear you 100% on the buy the man/woman, not the item part.

It looks all original from the two pics. It's defo a post war one with a metal dial though. The later movement for a start and the serial number puts it in the very late 40's. http://www.brittons-watches.co.uk/NEW_SITE/history_dating/Date_Longines.asp. Don;t get me wrong its a damn nice watch and if the price was right? For me that would be around 12-1400 euro. Below that I'd rip his hands off. Above that I'd bid a polite adieu. Thing is ones of that age are regularly to be found on swanky vintage sites claiming some pre war cache and equally high prices.

You want wartime? Cool, but you don't need to pay high prices for that. I just pulled the trigger on an Alpina KM (Kriegsmarine, WW2 German navy) issued wristwatch for the grand sum of 150 quid inc shipping. Yep it's small(30mm) and the base metal cases always gather a lot of patina to them , but for that kinda money? For that kinda history? And for a watch that on a UK or US site would be closer to 400 euro or more? No brainer IMHO.

Bit of a tip, few of the English speaking collectors(esp our fellow American WIS/Watch crazies) think of looking on ebay.de or ebay.fr or ebay.it and you can pick up some nice and unusual and cheap/reasonable stuff in such places. Items that just don't show up on ebay.ie even if you check the worldwide preference. Surprising as many of the sellers will happily ship worldwide, especially to somewhere like Ireland in the EU. Babelfish is your translatory friend in these cases. Watch nutters of all nations speak a common language anyway . Chronos24.com is another handy one for perusing too. Though prices tend to be high, but can be madly variable. this kind of strategy will give you an idea what's out there.

Monty Burnz

Cheers Wibbs

I have a nice Longines (really beautiful original condition) with a cal 12L movement which, according to the nice folks at Longines was sold in 1944 by their US distributor. It is military style, but not issued.



It's probably the most characterful watch I own - about 32mm and quite wearable on a bund (I've small wrists). Cost about €120 delivered from a US owner - was amazed I got it so cheap. Dunno what it should fetch though.

I also have a nice Revue ATP, but not sure when it was issued - possibly post WW2. That was €60 or so from a guy on TZ-UK.

Wibbs

Apologies for fiddling with your post MB. It had to be seen.

Oooohhh that Longines is sweet. Very nice watch. 150 quid? :eek::eek: You got a bargain there MB. I've seen that design before with the 24 hour indices on the inner ring and they went for triple+ of that. They're also rarer than the official issued stuff too. That's the thing about mil stuff, people forget that the military usually order a lot of the same watch model. And because they're very practical, they're not pushed about mixing and matching watches/parts with broken ones that come into service. The civvie version is often a lot rarer. IE as per the thread, try getting a civvie Czech Longines. Try getting a civvie Heuer/Tutima Bund chrono. Not easy at all, yet the non mil is likely to be less molested and original. That Longines of yours was clearly aimed at a military market. Really good buy. The Revue ATP is also a good buy. Shít, and I'm pretending to give you advice? :eek: Colour me jealous anyway.


PS It's handy having small wrists like us for the vintage stuff.

Wibbs

PS I've found Longines are really cool about their records and giving out info. Usually have loads of detail attached. Zenith are another one I found very helpful too. Rolex funny enough I've found less so. Well they give you a date and that's about it. IWC similar, though both will give you a printout. Longines will often give the inside leg measurement of the bloke who bought it.

Weird aside; when dealing with watch companies and vintage enquiries, if the reply is from a woman they're usually more thorough Strange but true I've found.

Monty Burnz

It's not like I'm knowledgeable Wibbs, I'm just very mean :pac::pac::pac:

Wibbs

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's not like I'm knowledgeable Wibbs, I'm just very mean :pac::pac::pac:

Separated at birth Sir.