.204 v .223

tomcat220t

poulo6.5 wrote: »

Any of the rfd's that I have spoke to recently say they can't get enough second hand .223's as they sell like hot cakes.


.223 is not a military round. It was developed 2 years before the military took up a slightly different version known as the 5.56x45 which fires FMJ bullets and has higher operating pressure

This tread has turned into a he said you said mess.
I look forward to meeting up with some of ye .204 users for a shot and see for my self just how brilliant it is. The invite is still there.

Gunshops down around here is packed with new and used .223 rifles ...As for your kind invite ,no problem .But since your the one looking to see the differnce between the 2 calibers you should call up to me ,sometime.There no he said she said with me ....Plenty of borads members have met up with me to see first had the merits of the .204 over the .223 .What would you like to see ?

tomcat220t

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If yer lucky as she is "SMALLER" than .224 she might be an amendment

I'd love another .223 or .204 "short barrel for Foxing only"

Why would you change your .223 for another one?What lenght is your .223 barrel at the moment ?

poulo6.5

tomcat220t wrote: »

Gunshops down around here is packed with new and used .223 rifles ...As for your kind invite ,no problem .But since your the one looking to see the differnce between the 2 calibers you should call up to me ,sometime.There no he said she said with me ....Plenty of borads members have met up with me to see first had the merits of the .204 over the .223 .What would you like to see ?

Sound tomcat. I am always up for a shot. When would suit you. I don't mind traveling.
4gun is coming up to me on wensday and we are going for a deer. Other than that I'm free.
Where in the country are you.

Tackleberrywho

tomcat220t wrote: »

Why would you change your .223 for another one?What lenght is your .223 barrel at the moment ?

My .223 is 1stone with all on 26" barrel. I'd like something like my VTR with a 20" Barrel and shorter stock

Grand for prone long range bunnies, but a bit awkward for lamping etc

tomcat220t

poulo6.5 wrote: »

Sound tomcat. I am always up for a shot. When would suit you. I don't mind traveling.
4gun is coming up to me on wensday and we are going for a deer. Other than that I'm free.
Where in the country are you.

Im in north wexford .We can meet up in the next few weeks through pms if you like .Also pm me what it is your wanting to see or do ,if thats ok .That way i can decide what land is best suited for the job .

zeissman

My mate got his 204 cut from 26 inches to 21.5 inches and the velocity went from 3750fps to 3465fps which is a loss of 285fps.
I know every barrel is different but I would be reluctant to buy a 204 with a 20 inch barrel.
Those bullet speeds were with the hornady 40 grain vmax.

customrifle

Hi lads, there good thread on longrangehunting at mo in the varmint section of the forum i think. Its the 250 vs the 204. Its interesting reading. Personally have a 250 that am very happy with but would love to get a 204 and run it with the 39gr. Id say there is very little between them out to 500 yards in relation to group size

Tackleberrywho

customrifle wrote: »

Hi lads, there good thread on longrangehunting at mo in the varmint section of the forum i think. Its the 250 vs the 204. Its interesting reading. Personally have a 250 that am very happy with but would love to get a 204 and run it with the 39gr. Id say there is very little between them out to 500 yards in relation to group size

You must be on another forum, no such section on this

Hondata92

declan1980 wrote: »

please forgive me as i am not trying to run down your shooting skill, but how in gods name is it ethical or safe for that matter to be attempting shots on foxes at those sort of distances. i mean forget the potential for stray shots, but due to the decline in kinetic energy the bullet will suffer by the time it gets that far would a wounded fox not suffer more and for longer than one shot at 300. just because you can shoot something at 500 yards, doesn't mean you should

Do you know how much kinetic energy the 39gr has at 500yards??

You say you use a 10:1 ratio of kenitic energy:weight and tackleberry uses a 13:1 ratio, the 39gr at 500yards still has more that enough kinetic energy to drop a 20lb fox using a 13:1 ratio.

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

My rifle was accurate before she was crowned, my crown was damaged a number of years ago. I only got it sorted this year.

Remington VSSF II are FACTORY Pillar bedded, I just added a little devcon for a bit extra regidity.
The groups @ 100 were almost identical

My Rifle is Shiny stainless steel and is a real eyecatcher (price new €1200)

26" barrel 1/12
I have tried 75 grain in her and they are no use.
I find 55grain perfect, even if 40 grain are flatter the 55grain are more accurate out past 200 in my set up.

When my rifle wears out I might get a .204
However if I wanted a more versatile varminter I'd go .243 or 6XC (although 6XC ammo is harder again to source)

The main reason I always wanted a .223 was for years I could not licence one yet I could licence a 6.5 go figure

No one is disputing its factory pillar bedded so dont know why that was brought up.

But if the groups were almost identical at 100yards then why did you say this

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The recrown for €90 was the best return on investment.
Halved my groups

Personally id class your .223 as a semi custom since its recrowned bedded has a timney trigger and a karsten cheekpiece so not quite a standard factory rifle

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You must be on another forum, no such section on this

As he said its on longrangehunting in the varmint section:rolleyes:

sikastag

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You must be on another forum, no such section on this

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f31/204-ruger-22-250-a-64171/

Tackleberrywho

Hondata92 wrote: »

Do you know how much kinetic energy the 39gr has at 500yards??

You say you use a 10:1 ratio of kenitic energy:weight and tackleberry uses a 13:1 ratio, the 39gr at 500yards still has more that enough kinetic energy to drop a 20lb fox using a 13:1 ratio.



No one is disputing its factory pillar bedded so dont know why that was brought up.
I brought it up as the bedding did feck all to my groups, as the Pillars were already there.

But if the groups were almost identical at 100yards then why did you say this
You were saying mine is custom



Personally id class your .223 as a semi custom since its recrowned bedded has a timney trigger and a karsten cheekpiece so not quite a standard factory rifle
The Recrown, as stated was needed due to my crown being damaged by a different person who first installed a moderator for me 3 years ago. The Karsten does nothing for accuracy, just more comfort (and looks cool IMVHO)



As he said its on longrangehunting in the varmint section:rolleyes:

If you were on another Irish Hunting forum, I believe there is a longrange section.
Just not one on boards.ie AFAIK

You mentioned my 13-1 ratio

However, I have not said anything against the .204's knock down ability.
I only ever said that .223 has cheaper ammo available, I'd buy an R-15 .204 as a foxer and go Custom on my .223 if funds allow in 2011 :cool:

bunny shooter

Cheaper ammo should not be a factor when your hunting as in my experience the cheaper 223 ammo is not that good compared to premium ammo which is ALL I use when hunting. target shoong, that's a different case

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Cheaper ammo should not be a factor when your hunting as in my experience the cheaper 223 ammo is not that good compared to premium ammo which is ALL I use when hunting. target shoong, that's a different case

Be that as it may, out to 200 yards on a fox a .223 will work with all ammo.

A guy I know on the Dole only buys wolf ammo for €10 a box, and he shoots a lot of foxes, having much more free time than me

Hondata92

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

If you were on another Irish Hunting forum, I believe there is a longrange section.
Just not one on boards.ie AFAIK

You mentioned my 13-1 ratio

However, I have not said anything against the .204's knock down ability.
I only ever said that .223 has cheaper ammo available, I'd buy an R-15 .204 as a foxer and go Custom on my .223 if funds allow in 2011 :cool:

Well longrangehunting is the site and varmint section is self explanatory

The reason i used your 13:1 ratio as its the highest ratio mentioned and as a point to prove to those who dont believe the .204 has enough kenetic energy.

declan1980

Hondata92 wrote: »

Do you know how much kinetic energy the 39gr has at 500yards??

You say you use a 10:1 ratio of kenitic energy:weight and tackleberry uses a 13:1 ratio, the 39gr at 500yards still has more that enough kinetic energy to drop a 20lb fox using a 13:1 ratio.

i have looked at the ballistics of both the 39gr .204, and the 55gr .223, and the .204 is carrying 36ft/lbs more energy at 500 yards, which means it is a superior round. i will also state that i never denied that fact.
what i was trying to express in my earlier post was not the limitations of any caliber, but that i don't believe it is at all ethical to be firing at foxes at 500 yards with any caliber, because even though the 39gr .204 is a faster round it still takes 0.54 seconds to travel that far (only 0.12 seconds less than a .223 55gr vmax i might add), which is enough time for a fox to move enough to result in a wounding hit, that combined with the time it would take to travel 500 yards to get to the fox could mean a slow and painful death for the fox.
people talk about ethical shooting of deer, saying you shouldn't shoot deer outside of 300 yards, or even 200 yards. doesn't the fox deserve the same respect?
having said all that, if in a few years i decide to change rifles, i will be either buying a .204 or a .243, depending on whether or not i decide to start hunting deer. but for now my .223 will do fine, as it does whatever i ask it to

Hondata92

You might want to check your maths again

Giving both rounds with a factory muzzle velocity

.223 55gr vmax

http://www.hornady.com/cgi-bin/ball10.cgi?firearm=Rifle&desc=55gr+vmax+.223&wght=55&coef=.255&vel=3240&sight=1.5&temp=59&barom=29.53&zero=200&wspd=10&calcbutton=Calculate

.204 39gr sbk

http://www.hornady.com/cgi-bin/ball10.cgi?firearm=Rifle&desc=39gr+.204&wght=39&coef=.287&vel=3750&sight=1.5&temp=59&barom=29.53&zero=200&wspd=10&calcbutton=Calculate

So since when does 380-313=36

Or are you using the M/V that you "calibrated" by shooting on paper and adjusting the M/V in a ballistic calculator till you got the same drop

declan1980

Hondata92 wrote: »

You might want to check your maths again

Giving both rounds with a factory muzzle velocity

.223 55gr vmax

http://www.hornady.com/cgi-bin/ball10.cgi?firearm=Rifle&desc=55gr+vmax+.223&wght=55&coef=.255&vel=3240&sight=1.5&temp=59&barom=29.53&zero=200&wspd=10&calcbutton=Calculate

.204 39gr sbk

http://www.hornady.com/cgi-bin/ball10.cgi?firearm=Rifle&desc=39gr+.204&wght=39&coef=.287&vel=3750&sight=1.5&temp=59&barom=29.53&zero=200&wspd=10&calcbutton=Calculate

So since when does 380-313=36

Or are you using the M/V that you "calibrated" by shooting on paper and adjusting the M/V in a ballistic calculator till you got the same drop

well since most bullet manufacturers are known to tell fibs about their bullet velocities, i thought it safe to assume that they might tell fibs about their bullet energies, and if i used the MV i've gotten from how i "calibrated" my rifle the energy would be lower would it not?
so i put both bullet bc's into jbm aswell as the foctory stated velocities and those were the figures i got back.
from what i can see you're just trying to run down anything anbody has to say that doesn't agree with what you, so i'm not going to post in this thread again, because i find this crap to be childish

Hondata92

No not running down what people say just dont want to see the facts obscured with non accurate statements

poulo6.5

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-bthp-Superformance-match/

Have a look at this baby for BC. And down range energy

landkeeper

poulo6.5 wrote: »

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-bthp-Superformance-match/

Have a look at this baby for BC. And down range energy

it's hard to get here, i bought a case of the 75grn tap stuff a while ago to try at longer ranges when the evenings get a bit longer same bc bit more drop though

poulo6.5

landkeeper wrote: »

it's hard to get here, i bought a case of the 75grn tap stuff a while ago to try at longer ranges when the evenings get a bit longer same bc bit more drop though

Ya it is hard to get but it's starting to filter threw. I got some of it in .308 that I have to try out yet.
I have used the regular 75gr BTHP match. That's easy enough to get. And it's very accurate in my tikka

Tikkat3

poulo6.5 wrote: »

Ya it is hard to get but it's starting to filter threw. I got some of it in .308 that I have to try out yet.
I have used the regular 75gr BTHP match. That's easy enough to get. And it's very accurate in my tikka

Hi Poulo,

If you come across a dealer with it in .223, could you let me know as i would love to try it out.

Thank you.

poulo6.5

Tikkat3 wrote: »

Hi Poulo,

If you come across a dealer with it in .223, could you let me know as i would love to try it out.

Thank you.

What grain .223 would you rather get.
I would love to get hold of the 75gr superformance as that weight bullet works well in the tikka

Tikkat3

I would like to try the 75gr superformance too as I like the 75gr BTHP match I used in the past in my tikka tac and am interested by the ballistics shown by hornady for the superformance round.

poulo6.5 wrote: »

What grain .223 would you rather get.
I would love to get hold of the 75gr superformance as that weight bullet works well in the tikka

Hondata92

poulo6.5 wrote: »

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-bthp-Superformance-match/

Have a look at this baby for BC. And down range energy

Been a match round whats its expansion like on a fox sized target, kinetic energy is only good if the round can expand within the target otherwise it will just pin hole and continue on whilst retaining most of its energy.

Good bc though

stick shooter

Hondata92 wrote: »

Been a match round whats its expansion like on a fox sized target, kinetic energy is only good if the round can expand within the target otherwise it will just pin hole and continue on whilst retaining most of its energy.

Good bc though

I could be wrong but i tought that paulo 6.5 only mentioned it as a long range target round not a varmint round .With high bc like that it seems a very good round. sorry if i read it wrong.

Hondata92

Paulo stated earlier in the thread that he uses the 75gr for long rabge paper.

But when he posted about the 75gr superformance he made reference to the down range energy which has no relevance for paper shooting, some people might see the energy the round has and think it would be great on foxs or even rabbits which isnt the case

stick shooter

Well maybe any one with cop on would have read the little place where it said MATCH :rolleyes:.You seem to be picking words not facts.I think he made reference to speed an bc .;)

poulo6.5

Hondata92 wrote: »

Paulo stated earlier in the thread that he uses the 75gr for long rabge paper.

But when he posted about the 75gr superformance he made reference to the down range energy which has no relevance for paper shooting, some people might see the energy the round has and think it would be great on foxs or even rabbits which isnt the case

Yes I did put this round forward as a target round. But on reading hornady's webiste they state that both the a-max and BTHP match expanded very quickly which would make them ideal for small game and vermin.
That maid me re think the round as a long range vermin round with excellent down range punch.
It is easy enough to get the standard match ammo. And now I am looking forward to trying the superformance when I get some in. Either in 53gr or preferably 75gr
I can't wait.

stick shooter

I only joined today but i have followed this thread for a few days . I find it very interesting to compare the .223 and the .204 . I think its great that two members that do not know each are willing to meet up and to compare calibers . I do think we should pat them on the backs and see what the out come is .