Personal Issues/ Suicide

carolmon

Hi
Just want to raise a concern re the response offered in PI when people post about being suicidal.

The standard response seems to be to tell the OP to seek professional help.

I totally understand that it's not advisable for us non professionals to get into communications with a person who is comtemplating suicide, but I worry that this stance leaves people without any help or support.

The current response doesn't always direct them to where they might find this help, so how about providing an easily identifiable stickie with contact numbers for support agencies and the samaritans etc?? (I know there are links in the charter but it's not all that obvious like the pregnancy and STI stickies)

It would be useful to ensure that the response to any suicidal OP directs them to this link.

It's a tough time of year for a lot of people and I'd hate to think people were only met with a clinical/ legalistic response in PI which usually provides such great support.

AntiMatter

Perhaps sticky this thread, or whatever it's PI equivalent is.

Victor

carolmon wrote: »

I totally understand that it's not advisable for us non professionals to get into communications with a person who is comtemplating suicide, but I worry that this stance leaves people without any help or support.

Not quite. Ordinary human contact is important for everyone, especially those who are depressed and/or suicidal.

However, when someone is posting on PI that they are suicidal, the best thing that can be done is for them to talk to a human being. Getting into an extended discussion via hte internet is less useful for hte person involved and anyone dealing with them.

Separately, there is the matter that there are trolls out there, looking to wind people up.

The current response doesn't always direct them to where they might find this help, so how about providing an easily identifiable stickie with contact numbers for support agencies and the samaritans etc?? (I know there are links in the charter but it's not all that obvious like the pregnancy and STI stickies)

I'm sure that could be looked at.

Nevyn

It is clearly marked in the helpful links thread and before any of the pregnancy and sti stuff.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61191700&postcount=3

Thaedydal wrote: »

Depression / Mental Health

http://www.irish-counselling.ie/

http://www.dublinsamaritans.ie/

http://www.mentalhealthireland.ie/

http://www.grow.ie/

http://www.aware.ie/

http://www.shineonline.ie/

http://www.recover.ie/ (Schizophrenia Ireland)



Suicide

http://www.nosp.ie/
(national suicide prevention)

1Life Suicide Prevention Helpline - 1800 247 100

And when such a thread is closed by mods in line with the site policy
the contact information is included in the thread and the op are urged to use it and get professional help.

If you have seen this not happening can you link me to them people and will remind all the PI mods to make sure to follow what is the current proceedure.

We have had mods up late at night ending up being a life line for people when they have been suicidal, we don't have the training for that, so we have to urge people to contact those who have and can help them.

dudara

We've had this discussion numerous times over the years in PI. As a result, we have adopted this standard approach. I will not reopen this old discussion again as my personal stance on it has not changed.

If anyone is in trouble, then they are better off seeking help and not talking to strangers on the internet, where they have no idea who they are talking to.

There are lots of links and tips in the Sticky thread for anyone who wishes to genuinely seek help.

We are not trying to be cold-hearted or dodging the issue. Put simply, it is felt that Boards is not an appropriate place for such discussions.

dudara

carolmon

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is clearly marked in the helpful links thread and before any of the pregnancy and sti stuff.

And when such a thread is closed by mods in line with the site policy
the contact information is included in the thread and the op are urged to use it and get professional help.

If you have seen this not happening can you link me to them people and will remind all the PI mods to make sure to follow what is the current proceedure.

I know it's in the helpful links thread, it's just that the others are named specifically and easily identifiable.

I totally understand that mods shouldn't become counsellors in this situation, that wasn't what I was suggesting but alternatively the standard response of "seek professional help" just reads to me a little cipped and clinical and could by seen by people seeking help as a rejection.

I'll pm you a link.

Wolfe Tone

I would agree with that. A thread in PI could be a last desperate plea for help by someone and to have it closed with "seek professional help" is not actually helpful at all.

dudara

As stated, we are not reopening this discussion. Threads of this nature will be closed with the same standard reply.

Nevyn

carolmon wrote: »

I know it's in the helpful links thread, it's just that the others are named specifically and easily identifiable.

I drew up the post with the helpful links all of them are listed in the exact same manner.

carolmon wrote: »

I totally understand that mods shouldn't become counsellors in this situation, that wasn't what I was suggesting but alternatively the standard response of "seek professional help" just reads to me a little cipped and clinical and could by seen by people seeking help as a rejection.

The thing is if a mods is seem to be too interested or friendly the ops have then gone on to start pming the mods instead of getting in touch with professionals. We have to be curt and firm and refer them for the sake of everyone them included.

carolmon wrote: »

I'll pm you a link.

Thanks.

Oryx

I think my closing of a thread today has prompted this response. I have been pmd by another poster about this also. I was following the procedure for such threads. However, I did not point the op to the stickied information. I replied quickly, and then left work because of snow. I had no chance to edit to include the info and I apologise. As a feedback thread like this hasnt happened recently, Id say that the lack of contact info is what caused people to comment. I was trying to be kind, but brief, as I know interaction can be counterproductive and actually unhelpful. It is too dangerous to leave vulnerable people open to any kind of online advice, when the only real help is from real people.

carolmon

Thaedydal wrote: »

I drew up the post with the helpful links all of them are listed in the exact same manner.

I know they all have equal billing within the thread, my request was to have a separately headed thread specifically for posters re suicide, one that has suicide prevention/ support in the title.

I really feel this is important esp as specific STI and pregnancy threads exist which are recognisable by the title.
This is despite the fact that these are issues other poster can respond to and may be able to offer suggestions and support.

As it's not possible for PI posters to respond in threads where the OP is suicidal I think it's especially important to have a titled and easily recognised stickie re suicide.

Nevyn

Thank you for the suggestion I will talk to the rest of the PI mods about it.
My concern would be that having a Stickie can lead to stickie blindness, often people don't want to read a sticked thread but to start one of thier own.

davebloggs

If people are on boards and are suicidal then I would have the same approach as if they were pregnant and worrying about it, it's your body ! nobody else can tell you what to do with it, there are legal avenues in europe for the termination of a life you do not wish to continue, I think a sticky pointing to these options would be beneficial.

If people no longer wish to live then why not direct then to the easiest exit rather than attempting to enforce your opinions on them.

WindSock

davebloggs wrote: »

If people no longer wish to live then why not direct then to the easiest exit rather than attempting to enforce your opinions on them.

If a friend told you he was depressed and feeling suicidal, would you hand him a noose and say good luck?

Tom Dunne

I've been on the interwebs for, oh, probably 15 years now. I have learned what is good, what is bad, who you can trust who you cannot trust.

Unfortunately, we have a massive hoard of very naive people who believe everything they read on the internet. They do not question advice, they do not question sources, they do not question perceived bias. They simply accept what they read as being the unequivocal truth.

This scares me.

I still get PMs from people asking me if I am the real Tome Dunne. I mean, FFS, I don't go near the radio forums, I don't go near the music forums, I hang out on the Mobiles/PDA/AMD forum.

Sadly, we, as a community,have to protect people from themselves. When people are in a desperate situation, where it really is a matter of life or death, chatting to anonymous strangers on the internet is not going to help. Talking to real, verifiable, qualified people is what has to happen.

It may sound harsh and clinical, but sadly, this is the way it has to be.

Oryx

davebloggs wrote: »

If people are on boards and are suicidal then I would have the same approach as if they were pregnant and worrying about it, it's your body ! nobody else can tell you what to do with it, there are legal avenues in europe for the termination of a life you do not wish to continue, I think a sticky pointing to these options would be beneficial.

If people no longer wish to live then why not direct then to the easiest exit rather than attempting to enforce your opinions on them.

I think this post justifies the stance taken on suicide in PI. I would not like boards to become this kind of site.

dudara

Excellent post there from Tom Dunne. It really encapsulates the problems that we face on PI when dealing with these types of threads.

A ridiculous amount of people believe what they read on the Internet. And then they ask "why has my credit card been used by a fraudster? This Chinese site looked fine to me." or "why am I pregnant? I read that you can't get pregnant standing up."

There are multiple reasons why we do not engage on suicide threads. The two main reasons are
1. we are not qualified professionals. Likewise, none of our posters are, and even if they are, they are not posting in a professional capacity with appropriate professional indemnity.
2. We cannot vouch for the veracity or honest intent of our posters.

Wolfe Tone

I think more can be done with the closing post tbh, post the links and stuff on the thread, even just a copy and paste.

AntiMatter

AntiMatter wrote: »

Perhaps sticky this thread, or whatever it's PI equivalent is.

I've only realised, on reading the thread, that this type of thing ain't allowed in PI.


How was it allowed in AH, or is just a rule for the PI forum?

RoundyMooney

Thaedydal wrote: »

I


We have had mods up late at night ending up being a life line for people when they have been suicidal, we don't have the training for that, so we have to urge people to contact those who have and can help them.

This, tbh.

I'd urge anyone who thinks folk are being dismissive when they deal with such threads to please understand that it's something that simply can't be dealt with on an impersonal text based medium.

I remember at least one case when such an instance did arise, and it was far from easy for the people involved.

Zaph

AntiMatter wrote: »

I've only realised, on reading the thread, that this type of thing ain't allowed in PI.


How was it allowed in AH, or is just a rule for the PI forum?

Discussion threads are not permitted in PI, the forum is purely there for people to ask for assistance with issues and for others to offer their advice.

AckwelFoley

look, ive "had it out" over the years with the PI mods over this issue and after a long debate on a simolar thread to this particularly with Thaed, i have to admit that the PI mods and the site ingeneral have to take this stance.

I am biased, i have been very depressed and on the verge of doing something that now in hind sight would have been a stupid thing.

When people ask me how i "got through" it the answer is simple - it was down to myself - no chatroom, no doctor, no meds no therapy alone is going to help if a. you dont want the help and b. if you dont use the big 3 - which is disgnosis, meds and on going therapy - but they dont work if you dont look for it, or want it.

Logging onto a forum and saying "Im going to kill myself" (to paraphrase) is not something that can be solved by an unqualified volenteer - the thing thati realised the most from talking to the mods is that this is something that can deeply affect them personally, and can be up all night literally - trying to communicate to someone, when at the end of the day, some one in this state needs real person to person contact.

Wolfe Tone

Would someone not find it easier to talk anon online though? I know I would.

Nevyn

The samaritians have an email address which can be used anon.
http://www.samaritans.org/talk_to_someone/email.aspx
Phone 24/7 365: 1850 60 90 90 TXT: 087 2 60 90 90 Email: jo@samaritans.org

And there are other sites which specifically deal with mental and emotional well being
who have forums. http://ie.reachout.com/ and http://www.turn2me.org/

The personal issues forums are part of a larger whole and so can not run the way those do.

looksee

Would it be possible for Boards to carry a small ad like the ads by Google, for the Samaritans, on PI?

AckwelFoley

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Would someone not find it easier to talk anon online though? I know I would.

i had a long post typed up in reply to this - going indepth into it from personal experience, but it was getting hairy for me and im in good form now - getting so close to christmas so i dropped it

Esentially - if you have family or some one you love that will talk to you and that you can confide in - it is 100 times better than an anon person.

One of the biggest problems with many people that suffer from depression and subsequently contemplate taking their own life is isolation - you could be in Croker with 80,000 screaming people and feel like there is nobody there - one of the things that cross your mind when you are contemplating the purpose of your own existance is where your life is going, where you have been, and the people around you an what they mean to you - for me, when it came down to it- i made a consious decision to fight not for me, but for my father..it would kill him, my sisters would in time recover im sure, but it would completely ruin the rest of my fathers life, because we are so close. In the long term, recovery became more about myself and realising that there is great things to live for and alot of things to looks forward to in life

Shareing your feelings - not your intentions, but your feelings with someone like that is what works, if it is with someone on the internet it is similar to talking to one of the 80,000 in croker - you know they are listening, but they have their own lives to live as do all the doctors and professionals -

Many people that take their own life dont talk, they feel they can, particularly men, men including myself feel emasculated by the way they feel themselves and the last thing they want to do is talk to other people about it - im sure you are familiar with the expressions after hearing of the death of a friend "Oh my god, i was out with him last night and he seemed so happy" - unfortunatly they only seemed happy, they didnt tell anyone how they really were inside.

So, what im saying is - the internet is great to talk to other people and share opinions, its great for many things - the samaritins are better because there is a voice and while ive never been in contact with them im sure they are good because of the fact they can make a more personal connection over the phone and have im sure received some training in dealing with these situations - but Mr Moderator dublinguy99 isnt going to be able to make the significant difference to someone that has gone that far - the person my be crying for help, but its like a hungry calf crying at a bull looking for milk, the bull might want to help but cant so the best he can do is show the calf where the nearest cow is.

You always have to look at it from the moderators point of view personally,wheather the mods are aware of it or not, but they are volantry members here, the come here as i do for the interaction and the ****s and giggles and in the case of PI mods they moderate a forum where by other members can help people with day to day personal issues, if someone wants to kill themselves the mods are going to be affected by dealing with these situations day in day out, and i dont think its fair on them having to worry about it - i know perhaps it sounds harsh, but mods could possibly have to deal with cases like this on a daily basis, and in my opinion i think the result would have more of an adverse result on the moderators and other members than it would have a positive effect on the person seeking help

Wolfe Tone

snyper wrote: »

i had a long post typed up in reply to this - going indepth into it from personal experience, but it was getting hairy for me and im in good form now - getting so close to christmas so i dropped it

Esentially - if you have family or some one you love that will talk to you and that you can confide in - it is 100 times better than an anon person.

But what if you are like me and don't have someone like that? I am sure lots of people are like that, despite having loving family and that they just don't want to tell them. For instance I always put on a "happy face" around my mother even when I feel totally like sh!t as I don't want her to be worried, or upset. I know if I told her I had spent the best part of the last year feeling like absolute sh!t she would be devastated and blame herself.

One of the biggest problems with many people that suffer from depression and subsequently contemplate taking their own life is isolation - you could be in Croker with 80,000 screaming people and feel like there is nobody there - one of the things that cross your mind when you are contemplating the purpose of your own existance is where your life is going, where you have been, and the people around you an what they mean to you - for me, when it came down to it- i made a consious decision to fight not for me, but for my father..it would kill him, my sisters would in time recover im sure, but it would completely ruin the rest of my fathers life, because we are so close.

Shareing your feelings - not your intentions, but your feelings with someone like that is what works, if it is with someone on the internet it is similar to talking to one of the 80,000 in croker - you know they are listening, but they have their own lives to live as do all the doctors and professionals -

There have been times when I have been very depressed, looking back I really should have talked to someone but I just "soldiered on" in the hope it would get better. I would like to think if I ever got really bad and was seriously contemplating suicide I wold get more than "Seek professional help,thread locked" if I posted in PI. The one time I mentioned how I was feeling to a friend I basically got a "I dont want to hear this, talk to someone else" and that was pretty devestating, because it was really hard to actually say it, just as it was quite hard to write it. It takes courage to do it, such a rebuff is not helpful at all.

Many people that take their own life dont talk, they feel they can, particularly men, men including myself feel emasculated by the way they feel themselves and the last thing they want to do is talk to other people about it - im sure you are familiar with the expressions after hearing of the death of a friend "Oh my god, i was out with him last night and he seemed so happy" - unfortunatly they only seemed happy, they didnt tell anyone how they really were inside.

Yeah, I understand that perfectly.

So, what im saying is - the internet is great to talk to other people and share opinions, its great for many things - the samaritins are better because there is a voice and while ive never been in contact with them im sure they are good because of the fact they can make a more personal connection over the phone and have im sure received some training in dealing with these situations - but Mr Moderator dublinguy99 isnt going to be able to make the significant difference to someone that has gone that far - the person my be crying for help, but its like a hungry calf crying at a bull looking for milk, the bull might want to help but cant so the best he can do is show the calf where the nearest cow is.

What I am getting at is that I think it could be dealt with better than the example I saw, which was then edited to have some links. I don't think locking the thread in the same apparently emotionless way as one would be if it was a soccer thread in AH, is the best way.

Oryx

Mussolini, the example you saw was mine. I explained about it above. I agree, the links should have been there from the outset.

Unlike the samaritans, or any of the links you *should* get pointed to, PI is not a dedicated resource for dealing with life threatening issues like suicide. We are not trained, we may not even be online at a crucial moment in a sucide discussion. The average poster here could vary from a concerned individual to a monster who wants to provoke people into taking their lives.

I hate that people might feel more isolated and alone having posted here and had their thread locked. I will take that on board the next time I come to close one, and word the notice accordingly. But you have to understand that we are not the people to help with something so critical, and we are only exercising due care in preventing such discussion here, in a place which is not suitable, and hopefully pushing the poster towards real help.

Nevyn

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What I am getting at is that I think it could be dealt with better than the example I saw, which was then edited to have some links. I don't think locking the thread in the same apparently emotionless way as one would be if it was a soccer thread in AH, is the best way.

It's not emotionless and it's not uncaring, all the pi mods past and present have been caring people, generally they give a shíte about people in general
but that has to be balanced with being able to hold the standards in the forum and be firm and warn/lock/ban where needed.

It's not easy, most of the time it is thankless, we get a lot of abuse/aggro for it (both here and smeared across other sites), but we do it cos it can at times help people and every now and then we get a pm which makes a difference to us and reminds us why we do it.

The firm manner in which threads such as that are closed are the same way a parent refuses to give a knife to a child, or denies something else they want which we can't let them have and often we are seen as horrible hard people for doing so but we have to.

So how do you think the threads should be closed MUSSOLINI if you think locking them saying please get professional help and linking to the contact info to do so is not enough? Keeping in mind if a person is drowning at that stage they will grab on to anything or any one and a kind word from a mod can result in a volley of pms which puts both the poster and the mod at risk. If you were in the situation we are what would you do?

Wolfe Tone

Thaedydal wrote: »

It's not emotionless and it's not uncaring, all the pi mods past and present have been caring people, generally they give a shíte about people in general

I said apparently, it appears as such, I am not for one minute suggesting that the PI mods don't give a fcuk. I don't see where I have suggested such at all.

It's not easy, most of the time it is thankless, we get a lot of abuse/aggro for it (both here and smeared across other sites), but we do it cos it can at times help people and every now and then we get a pm which makes a difference to us and reminds us why we do it.

Yeah, and well done for doing it.

The firm manner in which threads such as that are closed are the same way a parent refuses to give a knife to a child, or denies something else they want which we can't let them have and often we are seen as horrible hard people for doing so but we have to.

Thats your prespective but it can easily be viewed as something else. For instance if someone is really really down they could view it as "even randomers on the internet don't care or want to listen", or something of the like. I know this is not the case, but it could appear as such.

So how do you think the threads should be closed MUSSOLINI if you think locking them saying please get professional help and linking to the contact info to do so is not enough? Keeping in mind if a person is drowning at that stage they will grab on to anything or any one and a kind word from a mod can result in a volley of pms which puts both the poster and the mod at risk. If you were in the situation we are what would you do?

It's a tough one alright, I dont claim to have all the answers. I hope I have picked this up wrong but you seem to be under the impression that I am out to bash the PI mods, I'm not, I am just trying to help is all.

There are plenty of good reasons why the threads are locked, maybe if these reasons are laid out when the thread is locked it will help the person in need understand why the thread is closed, and not think the possible scenario I laid out earlier.

AckwelFoley

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But what if you are like me and don't have someone like that? I am sure lots of people are like that, despite having loving family and that they just don't want to tell them. For instance I always put on a "happy face" around my mother even when I feel totally like sh!t as I don't want her to be worried, or upset. I know if I told her I had spent the best part of the last year feeling like absolute sh!t she would be devastated and blame herself.

What i would say is that i can understand how you feel, because while my mother loves me and would worry about me, she has absolutley no understanding nor will she ever of depression, bless her soul, but her only solution is "go to bed, get some sleep, you'll be alright" While im not going to say that you must tell your mother how you feel, what i will say is - if you did take your own life, how might she feel then? The degrees of devastation would be alot stronger and she would be without a son. I know you dont want to involve other people, nobody does - but there is generally always someone there - be it a sibling or parent, i too avoided talking to my father for the same reasons you do, but its a very lonley furrow to plough - a problem shared is a problem halved, there does come a point when you need to look for help

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

There have been times when I have been very depressed, looking back I really should have talked to someone but I just "soldiered on" in the hope it would get better. I would like to think if I ever got really bad and was seriously contemplating suicide I wold get more than "Seek professional help,thread locked" if I posted in PI. .

My feeling on this and i suppose my point is - that when it gets to that point where you might be on the precipice of doing something, i think its gone too far for people to be helped by merely chatting on a website - i know that in my case, its simply a case that i know that the thought of even turning on the computer to talk would be too much of an effort - when i know that the help i would receive came from someone i dont know - if i were to paraphrase again somewhat and say -what if someone was literally on the edge of a rooftop and about to jump, do you think that their problems could be solved by having a text conversation with them? If someone gets to the point where they are actually going to commit suicide and are going to do it, they are less likely (in my opinion) to be interested in talking, they may probably have tried and felt it didnt work or they may simply not want to or feel they can talk. These people need serious medical help i personally think they are gone past the stage of logging on to the internet or making any other significant cries for help

If someone is thinking about suicide as an option and say that they feel like killing themselves these are people need to be directed to professional help and shown the resources available, for someone that has depression i was incrfedibly ignorant as to the resources out there and it was only when i got into the system was i made fully aware of them - and ironically somewhat one of the best forms of therapy for these people is the organisation AWARE, ive gone there and found it brilliant, ive only been there a handful of times because it was at the latter end of what i was dealing with, but if i had been going there earlier i would have been helped faster. You are in a room talking to other people, exchanging stories and experiences, you get to appreciate how bad it is for other people and you get to realise that you are not alone, and that when you see the people there dont have two heads, dont walk with a limp or look like norman bates you begin to see that that 80,000 seater stadium that was empty is starting to fill up with people just like you.

I tend to agree that perhaps the moderators need to look at the wording of the way they close the thread, and perhaps make it a little more softly softly, but in principle i think the stance now is the best