IBT - The slow painful death of motorcycling in Ireland

hobochris

It comes as no supprise that the people who are set to gain the most from IBT (Instructors) were consulted and advised the government(strongly) on bringing in IBT, so as of the 6th of December it is here for better or most likely worse.

Now Im all for training for newbies, making it compulsary is a smart move, BUT NOT AT AN AVERAGE OF €800 A POP.

It is also unfair that new bikers must do 16 hours training and their counterparts learning on 4 wheels must only do 12 hours. When statistically a huge number of bike acccidents are due to the fault of a car driver.

Also as like much of our statute this idea came from the uk, Should we not also be implementing Direct access aswell?


Attention MAG Ireland

Going on posts on this forum you claim to be representing bikers in ireland, here is something you can do:

1.Lobby the government for subsidised IBT.
2.Lobby the government for Direct access.

Otherwise just remain as you are, a toothless organisation claiming to represent bikers interests.

</ Constructive Rant>

jayok

Ok, I completely agree with the requirement of mandatory training, however€800 a pop is a ridiculous amount of money.

I know Fingal county-council offer the Star Rider course that gives 10 hours of training for €225 (silver) - it is subsidised. Not sure what they cannot do the same for the IBT. Is the IBT a fixed course? Does it have to be 16 hours? Could the Star Rider course be modified?

Finally, not being smart, but biking is not a cheap form of transport. By the time you purchase the gear, insure the bike, maintenance, etc, it all starts to add-up.

Wossack

€€€

http://www.cbtgroup.ie/courses/cbt-training/

jayok

Wossack wrote: »

€€€

http://www.cbtgroup.ie/courses/cbt-training/

Yeah, I notice it's €800 for the CBT that's €50 / hour. But the non-compulsory instruction is only €40 / hour.

Good old, rip off Ireland. If we can make a mess of something, we will.

Oryx

In my opinion, motorcyclists are a non entity in this country. The government are simply not interested, and pretty much want them off the road. Some road rules simply dont consider bikes as road users at all:

No NBT for bikes
No legal standard numberplate size for bikes
No Single Vehicle Type approval for anything but cars
An engine restriction law that piggybacks on the EU law but has never been legally tested here. Even the guards cant give an exact interpretation.

Motorcycles seem to be seen as a minor inconvienience that the road using public would be better off without. And if things like extortionate CBT continue, they will succeed in removing them.

Del2005

Oryx wrote: »

In my opinion, motorcyclists are a non entity in this country. The government are simply not interested, and pretty much want them off the road. Some road rules simply dont consider bikes as road users at all:

No NBT for bikes

If there were enough they'd bring it in.

No legal standard numberplate size for bikes

Yes there is.

No Single Vehicle Type approval for anything but cars

Are you sure?

An engine restriction law that piggybacks on the EU law but has never been legally tested here. Even the guards cant give an exact interpretation.

The law is clear. It's not the Guards job to interoperate law they just enforce it, it's up to the courts to interoperate laws.

There just hasn't been any enforcement of the law, except for certain rare cases.

Oryx

If there were enough bikes there would be NBT just reinforces my argument.

The link you gave for number plates shows two types, both of which are too large and not used on bikes, the standard plate you find on bikes is not there.

I am 100% sure on single vehicle type approval. The only system for issuing certs of conformity to single vehicles applies only to cars.

The law is not clear. It has never been firmly established what weight is to be used when working out p/w ratio.

KamiKazi

Oryx wrote: »

If there were enough bikes there would be NBT just reinforces my argument.

The link you gave for number plates shows two types, both of which are too large and not used on bikes, the standard plate you find on bikes is not there.

I am 100% sure on single vehicle type approval. The only system for issuing certs of conformity to single vehicles applies only to cars.

The law is not clear. It has never been firmly established what weight is to be used when working out p/w ratio.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/si/0432.html

gipi

jayok wrote: »

Ok, I completely agree with the requirement of mandatory training, however€800 a pop is a ridiculous amount of money.

I know Fingal county-council offer the Star Rider course that gives 10 hours of training for €225 (silver) - it is subsidised. Not sure what they cannot do the same for the IBT. Is the IBT a fixed course? Does it have to be 16 hours? Could the Star Rider course be modified?

jayok wrote: »

Yeah, I notice it's €800 for the CBT that's €50 / hour. But the non-compulsory instruction is only €40 / hour.

Good old, rip off Ireland. If we can make a mess of something, we will.

I thought I read somewhere that the IBT has to be one-to-one training, which is why it's likely to be more expensive than regular tuition.

LookBehindYou

IBT can be done 1-1 for a reasonable price, NOT 7 to 800 euro

Wossack

LookBehindYou wrote: »

IBT can be done 1-1 for a reasonable price, NOT 7 to 800 euro

any links?

it anywhere near the £100-£150 it costs in the UK?

egan007

Does the Fingal CC Star rider course count as IBT?

When I did it was 12 hours and 250euro
So if they make this a IBT course...which i suppose is logical so may not happen....
16 hours would bring it up to 333euro....which is reasonable. (20 per hour)

Excellent course i might add

carsQhere

hobochris wrote: »

Attention MAG Ireland

Going on posts on this forum you claim to be representing bikers in ireland, here is something you can do:

1.Lobby the government for subsidised IBT.
2.Lobby the government for Direct access.

Otherwise just remain as you are, a toothless organisation claiming to represent bikers interests.

Attention hobochris

If you want to tell MAG Ireland something, try the contact form on this page; http://www.magireland.org/contact/

carsQhere

egan007 wrote: »

Does the Fingal CC Star rider course count as IBT?

I don't think so. Wasn't the Star Rider course subsidised by Fingal CC?

In any case, The IBT course has to be done with an RSA approved driving instructor. There's a list on the RSA web site.

It'll be interesting to see the reaction when IBT for cars comes in next April. The car course is 12 hours against 16 for the bike. I wonder how many will claim it's preventing young people from taking up driving?

Run_to_da_hills

€800 is a cheap price to pay if it saves more lives.

Get over it. :pac:

(Thank God I did my test in the days when a test just involved a guy following you around the block in a cage. )

RosieJoe

Love the way the ad at the bottom is usually the RSA and the IBT requirements. Just to rub the salt in the wounds!

Roadskill

LookBehindYou wrote: »

IBT can be done 1-1 for a reasonable price, NOT 7 to 800 euro

Plesae let us know how?

We have to provide the following

Compound
Several Bikes
Gear for different sizes
Radio equiptment
Classroom & Contents
Changing area
Refreshments
Insurance
Fuel
Licence fees to the RSA
Pay the RSA for all documentation required
Public Liability
Professional Indemnity
The list goes on

Oh and I forgot we can only take 2 people max onto the road.

Any ideas welcome and that's genuine.

I trying hard not to advertise but when people mention €800 it's tough to ignore. It will be expensive one on one but if 2 go together then it can be done a lot cheaper. We are €600 at the moment one on one and €495 for two to one.

KamiKazi

Here's my opinion, and I'm sure it'll rustle some feathers but fvck it.

IF the motorcycle instructors cared less about their wallet and more about the future of motorcycling in Ireland, they would have lobbied against the government and got IBT subsidised before being brought into legislation.

Just out of curiosity I googled UK CBT and got a list of schools hosting CBT courses. The first school I looked at didn't list prices online, that's fine I moved on. The second one I visited gave the following prices:

£110 with your own bike
£135 with the school bike

At current rates that's €129.34 and €158.76 respectively, a perfectly acceptable fee for some potentially lifesaving training. €800 on the other hand, is laughable.

hobochris

carsQhere wrote: »

Attention hobochris

If you want to tell MAG Ireland something, try the contact form on this page; http://www.magireland.org/contact/

If MAG represents motorcyclists in Ireland as they claim to do, then I shouldn't have to, MAG should already be actively working on this as It is a huge issue for irish motorcycling And seems to be a hot topic on the main Irish motorcycle forums.


Now even though I shouldn't have to, I will point MAG's Attention officially to this thread via the contact page sugguested.

To put this another way, the high price of this is a discouragement to many, as such will effect the motorcycle community negatively, as it means less work for mechanics, so they will have to increase prices to survive or go out of business, and the same with many shops.

The Motorcycling community is great one and anything that threatens to reduce the numbers within it should be met with much resistance.

I remember recently on another thread you were inquisitive about ways to improve MAG and what potential members might want from MAG, This seems like a no Brainer for MAG.

Yet, even though granted my initial post was mainly fueled by annoyance and frustration I still find your response poor and wanting.

Is this to be considered a representation of the stance MAg has on this issue?

Del2005

KamiKazi wrote: »

Here's my opinion, and I'm sure it'll rustle some feathers but fvck it.

IF the motorcycle instructors cared less about their wallet and more about the future of motorcycling in Ireland, they would have lobbied against the government and got IBT subsidised before being brought into legislation.

Just out of curiosity I googled UK CBT and got a list of schools hosting CBT courses. The first school I looked at didn't list prices online, that's fine I moved on. The second one I visited gave the following prices:

£110 with your own bike
£135 with the school bike

At current rates that's €129.34 and €158.76 respectively, a perfectly acceptable fee for some potentially lifesaving training. €800 on the other hand, is laughable.

CBT is about 7 hours while IBT is 16 hours. The UK is a bigger market and has the advantages of scale, cheaper insurance and bikes.

When the driver CPC for professional drivers was introduced the schools where charging €150 for the class room sessions, now you can do it for €50.

The price will drop to a more reasonable level soon as more schools come on stream or, more likely, so few people actually do it that the schools will start discounting to get buisness to try and pay off their outlay.

MrPudding

Del2005 wrote: »

CBT is about 7 hours while IBT is 16 hours. The UK is a bigger market and has the advantages of scale, cheaper insurance and bikes.

Not only that, but the bulk of the CBT is carried out on an off public road setting. There were 10 riders in my group. We all did the off road bit together. The on road bit does have restrictions on the instructor / student ratio, but it is easily handled as it is for a relatively short period.

CBT training in the UK might be considerably cheaper, but it is very lucrative for the schools that have the right set up. I don't think it is a valid comparison.

The cost of this IBT is about the same as a full direct access course, which includes the CBT.

MrP

weatfest

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

€800 is a cheap price to pay if it saves more lives.

Get over it. :pac:

(Thank God I did my test in the days when a test just involved a guy following you around the block in a cage. )

Ha,yeah. Did my test in Skibbereen and the tester followed me three times around the town in his car. Then parked up and told me to drive to the end of the road and do an emergency brake stop that he couldn't see! A drive at walking pace followed and test passed. What a joke.

amacca

weatfest wrote: »

Ha,yeah. Did my test in Skibbereen and the tester followed me three times around the town in his car. Then parked up and told me to drive to the end of the road and do an emergency brake stop that he couldn't see! A drive at walking pace followed and test passed. What a joke.

say it depends on the tester rather than the test tbh

I did'nt pass the first time as the "cage follower" got up the inside of me several times as I was exiting round about without me even picking him up in the mirrors


he put me through the mill both times and made me do emergency brake stop on strip of bypass from set speed as he was driving alongside. Thankfully passed the second time


I'd say everyones testing experience will vary and its the amount that the experience varies is what bothers me.

I'm not entirely convinced these compulsory training schemes/instructor training things will make the driver/rider all that safer until the actual tester is subject to some sort of inspection regime carried out during the test (video playback etc) to achieve some sort of quality control to see they are being consistent in who they pass and who they fail. rather than a yearly training course or whatever where they behave perfectly and then slip back into their old inconsistent ways.

+ if its 16 hours for motorcycles. add on an extra module of "motorcycle awareness" for cage drivers with a specific part where they hammer a "no tailgating" at high or any speed for that matter rule into them

Run_to_da_hills

weatfest wrote: »

Ha,yeah. Did my test in Skibbereen and the tester followed me three times around the town in his car. Then parked up and told me to drive to the end of the road and do an emergency brake stop that he couldn't see! A drive at walking pace followed and test passed. What a joke.

I passed my test first time on a 1962 200cc Triumph Tigercub, the tester was more interested in vintage bikes than he was monitoring the teat. The gear leaver fell off and went awol half way through the test and the guy didn't even notice.

carsQhere

hobochris wrote: »

Is this to be considered a representation of the stance MAg has on this issue?

Absolutely not.

On any occasion where I have posted something on behalf of MAG Ireland, I have explicitly indicated the fact that it is on behalf of MAG Ireland. Furthermore, I typically block quote the MAG text just so it's absolutely clear to people what is being said and by whom.

MAG Ireland's formal position statements can be found on the MAG web site. Anything I post under my username is - unless explicitly stated otherwise - my personal opinion, view or comment on the thread or topic as I've read it.

As an active MAG member, I do what I can, as and when I can, in pursuit of riders rights. No more, no less.

hobochris wrote: »

To put this another way, the high price of this is a discouragement to many, as such will effect the motorcycle community negatively, as it means less work for mechanics, so they will have to increase prices to survive or go out of business, and the same with many shops.

Most of the instructors I have spoken to, and I know several, feel that 16 hours is excessive and/or unfair in the context of the car IBT being only 12. Factor in the economies of scale in the private car training versus the bike training, and the situation looks bleak. Anyone who has ever run their own business of any kind will understand how difficult it is (and will be) for instructors to make a living. Most have full time day jobs and instruct as supplemental income. I wouldn't do it myself. I can't see how it's possible to make any kind of a return on the investment needed to run an IBT course.

I find the idea that instructors somehow lobbied for a prohibitively expensive course to be brought in for their own financial gain to be laughable. But then I've looked at the figures, something that a lot of people evidently haven't bothered to do.

Roadskill even spelt it out, but still you have people coming along comparing UK CBT with Irish IBT which is like comparing chalk with cheese.

Many mechanics and shops will go out of business anyway as a direct result of the recession since less disposable income means that casual riders will ditch the bike along with the top end sky package and the skiing holiday and the nanny. At the other end of the chain, people will loose jobs and be forced into quiting the biking. There probably will be a negative impact from IBT, at least initially, but over time the numbers of people taking up biking should level out again. Point is IBT will be blamed even though the real cause will be much more complex.

Xios

Just my one case.

My dad did his theory test last month so he could get back on a bike again for the first time in almost 30 years. He'll be learning on my bike, as a named rider. His tax and insurance are free cause of his age and i pay the tax.
He's got a lot of disposable income, having no mortgage to pay each month, but he's not gonna bother riding the bike now cause of the high rate for IBT, so that's already 1 person discouraged from IBT.

Del2005

Xios wrote: »

Just my one case.

My dad did his theory test last month so he could get back on a bike again for the first time in almost 30 years. He'll be learning on my bike, as a named rider. His tax and insurance are free cause of his age and i pay the tax.
He's got a lot of disposable income, having no mortgage to pay each month, but he's not gonna bother riding the bike now cause of the high rate for IBT, so that's already 1 person discouraged from IBT.

So he was willing to spend several thousand on a bike, possibly another grand on kit and isn't willing to spend any money to get trained, which will be the best €600-€800 he spends Before I did my test I did a few lessons and after I passed it I did a 6 hour course to increase my skills, I spent around €400 in total for ~8 hours, but I consider my skin worth investing in.

AFAIK the UK is supposed to be reviewing their crazy new test so that it can be done on roads again. He should look into doing DA in the UK.

Xios

Del2005 wrote: »

So he was willing to spend several thousand on a bike, possibly another grand on kit and isn't willing to spend any money to get trained, which will be the best €600-€800 he spends Before I did my test I did a few lessons and after I passed it I did a 6 hour course to increase my skills, I spent around €400 in total for ~8 hours, but I consider my skin worth investing in.

AFAIK the UK is supposed to be reviewing their crazy new test so that it can be done on roads again. He should look into doing DA in the UK.

He's gonna be using my bike and gear, prob a new helmet for his size, but that's about it.

ArphaRima

As a graduate of both a CBT and a Direct Access course here in the UK earlier this year I have to say we do/did indeed need a rework of our driver training system in Ireland. I think the UK have a fantastic system.

I think I did a CBT/Theory test/Hazards perception/3 days training/2 modules of practical test all for around 600GBP on rented bikes.

Last night I had a good look at the proposals put forward for IBT and graduated driving licencing etc. They are frankly horrendous. (16hrs!!?)

I too am joining the mob when I say there is no way vested interests were not involved in the formulation of this plan.

All I can say is that I'm glad I have my licence already and that what's happening to the next generation of bikers is just purely unjust legislation.

Del2005

Xios wrote: »

He's gonna be using my bike and gear, prob a new helmet for his size, but that's about it.

What happens when he gets the bug and you both want to head out for a spin?:D

It wasn't really aimed at you or your father. More at people moaning about the cost of training, which is relatively steep for now, but if someone is starting out on a bike it's not that big of a cost and possibly the 2nd best investment in their own safety after their PPE. As I said I paid out several hundred Euro for training, even though I'd rode bikes years before, without the government forcing me to.

Also at €800 for 16 hours of lessons that's only €50 per hour for someone to supply a bike, gear, helmet, get RSA certification/inspections and pay penal insurance. How much do mechanics charge per hour to work on a bike?

HellsAngel

Del2005 wrote: »

What happens when he gets the bug and you both want to head out for a spin?:D

It wasn't really aimed at you or your father. More at people moaning about the cost of training, which is relatively steep for now, but if someone is starting out on a bike it's not that big of a cost and possibly the 2nd best investment in their own safety after their PPE. As I said I paid out several hundred Euro for training, even though I'd rode bikes years before, without the government forcing me to.

Also at €800 for 16 hours of lessons that's only €50 per hour for someone to supply a bike, gear, helmet, get RSA certification/inspections and pay penal insurance. How much do mechanics charge per hour to work on a bike?

€50 an hour :eek: :eek: :eek: Ridiculous. How much is a lesson in a car ? Maybe €20 an hour? As for bike, gear, helmet, what's the bike going to be, an 7/8 year old 250cc. Gear, a hi viz jacket. Lid - everyone has an old spare one. Get real :rolleyes: