IBT - The slow painful death of motorcycling in Ireland

mantaraver

weatfest wrote: »

Ha,yeah. Did my test in Skibbereen and the tester followed me three times around the town in his car. Then parked up and told me to drive to the end of the road and do an emergency brake stop that he couldn't see! A drive at walking pace followed and test passed. What a joke.

Think that's bad. On my test the tester got stuck in traffic on the first turn from the test centre, while I blissfully carried on with my pre-arranged few laps of the town. I don't think he saw me till I got back to the test center, where upon I showed him my emergency stop. And that was that. I passed !!

gipi

HellsAngel wrote: »

€50 an hour :eek: :eek: :eek: Ridiculous. How much is a lesson in a car ? Maybe €20 an hour? As for bike, gear, helmet, what's the bike going to be, an 7/8 year old 250cc. Gear, a hi viz jacket. Lid - everyone has an old spare one. Get real :rolleyes:

I'd say it's a long time since car lessons were €20! Probably closer to €40/€50 at this stage!

Del2005

HellsAngel wrote: »

€50 an hour :eek: :eek: :eek: Ridiculous. How much is a lesson in a car ? Maybe €20 an hour? As for bike, gear, helmet, what's the bike going to be, an 7/8 year old 250cc. Gear, a hi viz jacket. Lid - everyone has an old spare one. Get real :rolleyes:

No where near €20 for a car, more like €30-€40.

They can't provide crap gear as it will leave them wide open to our litigious culture. They have to buy gear for all sizes and even if they buy cheap stuff you're still looking at a big out lay. Then they have to buy multiple lid sizes and you'll be guaranteed that, if they ever get busy, one will be dropped at least every few weeks.

A 7/8 year old year old 250:eek: You must not look at the state of the vast majority of bikes in this country. They will need good quality bikes which will be badly abused by multiple new riders. Then they'll need to service, how long do you think the clutch will last?, and repair them as they will be damaged by new riders

Don't forget they will be training people who don't have a licence yet so many won't have bought gear in case they fail the IBT.

I also forgot that they have to hire a huge yard and provide decent changing facilities.

ArphaRima

I think some people are missing the point being made. I couldnt care less how much it costs the school to run these courses. Its the requirement to do so much training that is the problem.

This is a statutory requirement that is to make learning inaccessible to many.

The requirement for this training is the problem. It is excessive and therefore prohibitive.

In short: I agree with the title of this thread.

Idleater

Excessive training, there's an interesting concept.
I must be a right mug to keep renewing my RoSPA every three years with refresher courses every 1-11/2.

Cuddlesworth

gipi wrote: »

I'd say it's a long time since car lessons were €20! Probably closer to €40/€50 at this stage!

25 an hour is what's the going rate. There is some fierce competition at the moment in Dublin, most of the smaller operations are being bullied out of the market.

Cuddlesworth

fluffer wrote: »

I think some people are missing the point being made. I couldnt care less how much it costs the school to run these courses. Its the requirement to do so much training that is the problem.

This is a statutory requirement that is to make learning inaccessible to many.

The requirement for this training is the problem. It is excessive and therefore prohibitive.

In short: I agree with the title of this thread.

And if the requirement of forced training caused motorbike riders to have a lower insurance risk and reduced all our premiums including new entry's to the market? Because my 1.2k initial insurance was comparatively cheap compared to some others I have heard of.

210

I think Chris your first point is very true and you are spot on that this will just be another reason to put people off becoming properly involved in biking. The ever present element who dont bother with licences, insurance or tax will continue to cause havoc and will tarnish all our reputations. For them training will just be another thing not to worry about. Training is good and should be encouraged but the price needs not to be an additional deterent. If the costs are reasonable more people can become involved & that way everyone benefits.

ArphaRima

Excessive training, there's an interesting concept.
I must be a right mug to keep renewing my RoSPA every three years with refresher courses every 1-11/2.

With respect I think this is the "please wont someone think of the children" response. More training is always better than no/less training.
We are talking about IBT; a pre-requisite to driving any motorcycle at all.
If we wanted near total safety we should require a 4 year degree in motorcycle operation. A balance needs to be found. I dont think it has been. The bar for initial training has been set too high with IBT in my opinion.
Every decision must have a cost influence. This cost will preclude many motorcyclists in future.

And if the requirement of forced training caused motorbike riders to have a lower insurance risk and reduced all our premiums including new entry's to the market? Because my 1.2k initial insurance was comparatively cheap compared to some others I have heard of.

Now you're being selfish. You did not have to do this training. Nor did I. However you think that if everyone else has to do it then it will help you financially.
Would you complain if it was legislated for all bike drivers who havent had this IBT course were forced to do it?

Get rid of the "I'm all right Jack" mentality. If I was a trainee I would be outraged. Think how you would feel at 18yrs old etc.

For the selfish I offer this; think what a lack of new motorcyclists will do for your bikes secondhand values in future.

Cuddlesworth

fluffer wrote: »

Now you're being selfish. You did not have to do this training. Nor did I. However you think that if everyone else has to do it then it will help you financially.
Would you complain if it was legislated for all bike drivers who havent had this IBT course were forced to do it?

Get rid of the "I'm all right Jack" mentality. If I was a trainee I would be outraged. Think how you would feel at 18yrs old etc.

For the selfish I offer this; think what a lack of new motorcyclists will do for your bikes secondhand values in future.

The biggest reasons for a lack of new entrants into motorcycles is insurance costs and a abysmally bad safety record. Neither of which not having IBT addresses.

Oh, and yes I didn't have to do training. I chose to do it and saved back the money on insurance in the first year. Which I am hoping will happen with the 16 hours of IBT too. No reason not to tack on a Aon/Quinn Assessment at the end.

carsQhere

IBT didn't just fall out of the sky and become law. A process was initiated by the RSA, and part of that process was that the RSA sought the views of interested parties.

Judging by this thread, there are lots of interested parties which makes me wonder how many responded to the RSA consultation on IBT (or CBT as it was) back in 2007?

IBT is not the only thing that's likely to impact motorcycling. I wonder how many responded to the RSA consultation on changes to the driving license earlier this year?

I wonder how many will come on here whining about the hazard perception test when it comes on stream in 2012?

I wonder how many will whine about the proposal fit a certified and monitored speed recording and tracking device as part of the proposal to expand sentencing options for breaches of road traffic law?

If you're going to complain about the RSA doing this and that then why not complain to them through their consultation processes in the first place??

honeybadger

fuggin rsa would want to stop moving the goal posts and let every one have a shot at motorcycling,if ya like it ya like it and if ya dont you go back to the car or public tansport,,jaysus its a lot less hassel to get a gun liscence than a driving liscence now ffs

ArphaRima

The biggest reasons for a lack of new entrants into motorcycles is insurance costs and a abysmally bad safety record. Neither of which not having IBT addresses.

So you agree costs are a deterrent to new applicants. 800 euro more as a barrier isnt going to help then is it?
An IBT isnt an advanced driving course. Its a basic training module for provisional(?) licencing.

IBT didn't just fall out of the sky and become law. A process was initiated by the RSA, and part of that process was that the RSA sought the views of interested parties.

To be quite honest, in 2007 I didnt know I wanted a licence. Neither did many of the other prospective motorcyclists and nor will any future ones either. They wouldnt have known to be involved in a consultative process. I'm sure the people that will be running these schools were involved heavily in the consultative process. I'm sure they heartily recommended 16hrs hours of training. I call shenanigans.

I dont want people to get the wrong idea from me here. I support the idea of an IBT. I should once again point out that I have already done a CBT/hazards perception test/a module 1 and 2 practical test and many hours training. However the costs and hours requirements were far more reasonable.
I just cant help but feel that ripoff Ireland is alive and well.

Cuddlesworth

fluffer wrote: »

So you agree costs are a deterrent to new applicants. 800 euro more as a barrier isnt going to help then is it?
An IBT isnt an advanced driving course. Its a basic training module for provisional(?) licencing.

Have you actually looked at what's involved in the IBT? As it stands insurance company's have to assume that the person they are insuring can actually ride a motorbike correctly in the first year, most of whom don't. And the insurance costs in relation to this are huge. IBT will only have a positive impact on those prices and save all bikers especially new entry's in the long term. It will also bring down car insurance as well when introduced.

ArphaRima

Have you actually looked at what's involved in the IBT?

Yes I have.

It will also bring down car insurance as well when introduced.

Again I dont doubt or dispute this. However it is not a silver bullet. It will take a long time for the changes to have effect on premiums. Insurance works on historical trends after all. An IBT (just like a CBT) is an invaluable training tool.
Listen to me when I say I think its a good step, -poorly implemented- for the reasons I give above.

amacca

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And if the requirement of forced training caused motorbike riders to have a lower insurance risk and reduced all our premiums including new entry's to the market? Because my 1.2k initial insurance was comparatively cheap compared to some others I have heard of.

If insurance premiums did actually come down in this country as a result of IBT then that certainly would offset the cost of it.

However having held many types of cover from many companies for bikes and cars I really wouldn't hold my breath. Despite never having an accident, holding 5 years no claims, a full license for years the renewal quotes for third party f&t continue to amaze me......I can only imagine what someone starting off must have to pay.

the insurance companies premiums in Ireland are nothing short of extortion in my opinion...they seem to operate as a Kartel and it wouldnt surprise me in the least if they find a way to profit more from this IBT rather than reduce premiums due to it.

KamiKazi

carsQhere wrote: »

I find the idea that instructors somehow lobbied for a prohibitively expensive course to be brought in for their own financial gain to be laughable. But then I've looked at the figures, something that a lot of people evidently haven't bothered to do.

No proof that instructors lobbied for IBT, but actions do speak louder than words so what actions did instructors do make IBT a more appealing prospect for new riders?

Or did you all just rub your hands together at the thought of €800 from each new rider?

LookBehindYou

KamiKazi wrote: »

No proof that instructors lobbied for IBT, but actions do speak louder than words so what actions did instructors do make IBT a more appealing prospect for new riders?

Or did you all just rub your hands together at the thought of €800 from each new rider?

I did not lobby for IBT.
I did not rub my hands at the thought of 800 euro from each rider, because I think its too expensive.
Where did this figure of 800 euro come from ?
To date, I dont know of anyone who has done their IBT yet.

KamiKazi

Googled it, first price I found http://www.cbtgroup.ie/courses/cbt-training/

carsQhere

KamiKazi wrote: »

Or did you all just rub your hands together at the thought of €800 from each new rider?

I'm not an instructor. I just happen to know a few instructors personally, and from speaking to them about IBT I can vouch that none of them rubbed their hands with glee at the prospects of €800 from each new rider because none of them could see how it was possible to make any kind of living wage on the back of it given the requirements to proivide compound, bikes, radios, gear, insurance and so on vs. the number of new riders coming along.

carsQhere

KamiKazi wrote: »

No proof that instructors lobbied for IBT, but actions do speak louder than words so what actions did instructors do make IBT a more appealing prospect for new riders?

One instructor I know was closely involved with the RSA on the formation of the syllabus for IBT and he pushed hard for the course to be the same duration and cost as for the car IBT, but the RSA decided 16 hours in the end.

KamiKazi

carsQhere wrote: »

I'm not an instructor. I just happen to know a few instructors personally, and from speaking to them about IBT I can vouch that none of them rubbed their hands with glee at the prospects of €800 from each new rider because none of them could see how it was possible to make any kind of living wage on the back of it given the requirements to proivide compound, bikes, radios, gear, insurance and so on vs. the number of new riders coming along.

Funny that there was no word of instructors lobbying against the IBT proposals until after it was brought in isn't it?

Cuddlesworth

fluffer wrote: »

Again I dont doubt or dispute this. However it is not a silver bullet. It will take a long time for the changes to have effect on premiums. Insurance works on historical trends after all. An IBT (just like a CBT) is an invaluable training tool.
Listen to me when I say I think its a good step, -poorly implemented- for the reasons I give above.

Can you give me a better implementation taking into account the population dispersion that Ireland currently has.

carsQhere

KamiKazi wrote: »

Funny that there was no word of instructors lobbying against the IBT proposals until after it was brought in isn't it?

That's really clutching at straws. It's pointless ranting about IBT because it's here for better or for worse.

There are far more intrusive proposals in the pipeline from the EU including mandatory ABS, mandatory NCT for bikes & mandatory PPE requirements. See section 7 - A new focus on Motorcyclists here;
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/10/343&format=HTML&aged=0&language=en&guiLanguage=en

More details on pages 11 & 12 of this PDF;
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/com_20072010_en.pdf

But sure rant on about IBT & ignore the incoming threats if if it makes you feel better

KamiKazi

This is a thread about IBT, not ABS or anything else

carsQhere

KamiKazi wrote: »

This is a thread about IBT, not ABS or anything else

And the bar chart on page 11 of http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_s...0072010_en.pdf is precisely why stuff like IBT is coming in.

If you think IBT is bad, wait till you see what else the EU has in mind to "solve the problem" of motorcycles. Try this... http://www.righttoride.co.uk/?page_id=1955

Personally I hope IBT is a success because if it's not things will get a lot worse for all of us.

Sally Briard

carsQhere wrote: »

If you think IBT is bad, wait till you see what else the EU has in mind to "solve the problem" of motorcycles. Try this... http://www.righttoride.co.uk/?page_id=1955.

Sorry to intervene, but as you put a link to Right To Ride, I think I need to clarify the issue with Thottle Control.

The reference is to a project called SAFERIDER - funded by the EU Commission. Within the project the consortium decided to include experiments on a "force feedback throttle". We, along with riders from Europe and throughout the world, as well as organisations such as FIM, protested and they withdrew it. The project aimed to develop warning systems for motorcycles including speed control, curve warning, vehicle to vehicle warnings. In the end the project (which cost EU tax payers 5 million euros) was a failure in the sense that none of the gadgets worked. But they aim to apply for more funding in the future to try again.

Anyway - that was to explain the link above. With regards to IBT, in Northern Ireland, we will also be having CBT introduced and if you are interested, you can read more about it here:

http://www.righttoride.co.uk/?page_id=2463

Hope this helps!

ArphaRima

Can you give me a better implementation taking into account the population dispersion that Ireland currently has.

Can you explain what you're on about?

And in case you try to get me to research a thesis to back my views, think again.

wellboytoo

I think you guys are missing the point, maybe you should rename this thread," The slow painful death of motorcyclists in Ireland" because that's what's happening out there, and you are arguing about money, kids are being killed and maimed weekly at the stupid non system we have at the moment.
A system is being put in place that one can avail of the Privilege to drive (not right), at least they are trying something to stop the carnage, and you guys are arguing about a few hundred Euro cost of training to get a license to drive for the next fifty (hopefully) years, get a life and grow up , the rest of Europe has had this for years and their mortality rates are lower because of this.
Look at the death rates on our roads dropping since the RSA has come into being, not an accident, a plan , and now they are tackling 2% of motorists (motorcyclist) who create an inordinate amount of the death rate and accident stats, and you guys are surprised!!!!!
Bitch and moan all you want, its here to stay and this time next year it will be business as usual , people will have to do the IBT and no moaning, remember the smoking ban?

ArphaRima

^^^^^^^^
http://youtu.be/Qh2sWSVRrmo

Every problem should have a considered response. Not a knee-jerk-tabloid-frenzy-overreaction at any cost.

Bitch and moan all you want, its here to stay and this time next year it will be business as usual , people will have to do the IBT and no moaning,

Jaysus don't our government and governmental bodies love your attitude?