IBT - The slow painful death of motorcycling in Ireland

MrPudding

KamiKazi wrote: »

MrPudding seems to think only bikers need training as there are fewer of us and it would be too difficult to train car drivers to the same level.

Really? And where have I said that? I have been fairly clear, I think, in what I am saying. I can only assume you are intentionally misrepresenting what I am saying.

MrPudding wrote: »

Car drivers should be more careful, but there is a lot more of them.
MrP

MrPudding wrote: »

Of course cagers have to pay more attention, and should pay more attention. But the sad facts are, there are a lot more of them, so it will take longer to train them.

MrPudding wrote: »

Drivers really do need to cop on,

The levels of skill on the road needs to improve overall.
MrP

MrPudding wrote: »

There is a very large number of cagers. A lot of them do not drive particularly well. Whilst I fully believe they should be trained to be better drivers that is not going to happen overnight.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not an apologist for cagers. I genuinely believe the standard of driving overall needs to be improved. I just don't think bikers can afford wait around for it to happen.


I would agree here to an extent. No amount of training is going to cover every eventuality, I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that bike training is the answer, but I find that attitude that "the cager is at fault they need to get safer" to be somewhat lazy. No matter how much training we give cagers and bikers, at the end of the day we are human and incidents will happen. it is about equipping yourself with the skills you need to be as safe as you can, irrespective of what anyone else is doing on the road.

Again, I agree to a certain extent. Skills need to be improved across the board, but seriously, it is a numbers game.

I think it is fairly clear that I am saying both bikers and cagers need training, but being realistic, there will be a faster improvement if bikers are targeted first and this is simply because of numbers. Only a fool could not see that it is easier to train a small number of people than a large number. As the MAID report shows, a not insignificant number of the accidents they looked at were either caused by the rider or could potentially have been avoided by the rider. I do not believe, nor have I ever, that rider training is the complete answer. The cagers need trained too, but it is a simple fact that it is faster to begin with the smaller group. Better trained bikers are less likely to be involved in incidents, regardless of who’s fault it is. Cager training needs to follow, though realistically I don’t know if it ever will, which is another good reason for bikers to get trained. I appreciate that most accidents are caused by cagers, but this attitude of “I don’t need training cos it is the cagers fault. Bikers shouldn’t have to do anything.” is ridiculous. Talk about cutting off you nose to spite your face. Yes, the cagers are at fault but, if we train the bikers better we can mitigate the risk of the crappy cagers and start to lower the death and injury rate. This is not about letting the cagers off the hook. It. It is about giving bikers a better chance of survival without tying it to another group of road users.

So, in summary, cagers needs more training. I do not know if or when they will get it. Having better trained bikers will help to improve the safety of bikers independently of cagers. ergo, it seems sensible to improve the standards of riders at least until such time as the cagers standards can be improved.

I am hopeful that this time you might actually understand what I am saying and stop arguing against something I am not actually proposing.

MrP

KamiKazi

A) there are a lot more car driving instructors than riding instructors.

IBT is mandatory so it's just as easy now to train drivers and riders.

Cuddlesworth

KamiKazi wrote: »

A) there are a lot more car driving instructors than riding instructors.

IBT is mandatory so it's just as easy now to train drivers and riders.

I'm afraid I once again don't understand where you are coming from. Training has been introduced for new drivers as of March I believe, both A and B cat. Bike riding which is the more complicated of the two and more accident prone has 33% more training then cars which is fair. The system is a Europe wide initiative brought in on the back of clear and fair research displaying the possible benefits.

Cost is a issue but worth it for the individual doing the training. Plus in my experience bike training is far more focused on good driving techniques and practise then how to pass your test.

Del2005

keithm1 wrote: »

This cbt is the straw that broke the camels back for biking in Ireland ,i know a few lads that are booked in to do the direct acces in England

more money leaving these shores but you can't really blame them

My missus is just going about getting an adress in the uk to do hers come march or april

It's defiantly the way forward for anyone seriously considering getting into bikes now

The price here for a provisional licence what a joke 600 - 800 quid

I looked into doing the UK DA route a few years ago. It seemed like a lot of hassle, at the time you had to get a commissioner for oaths or some other professions to sign that they knew you before getting a licence.

But now if it's going to cost €600-€800 here with a 2 year wait for full power v's a couple of days in the UK for full power it's makes much more sense.

keithm1

Del2005 wrote: »

I looked into doing the UK DA route a few years ago. It seemed like a lot of hassle, at the time you had to get a commissioner for oaths or some other professions to sign that they knew you before getting a licence.

But now if it's going to cost €600-€800 here with a 2 year wait for full power v's a couple of days in the UK for full power it's makes much more sense.

Too right
most of the young lads around here or in my family ask me, about getting into bikes,because they know I have them, and I'll be strongly advising anyone who asks to look into the uk route rather than give it to our money hungry trainers , they've shot themselves in the foot with this scandal ,but also they're gonna close a lot more bike shops and home based mechanics with there greed

MrPudding

keithm1 wrote: »

... money hungry trainers , they've shot themselves in the foot with this scandal ,but also they're gonna close a lot more bike shops and home based mechanics with there greed

Genuine question. How much of this is the trainer's fault?

MrP

wellboytoo

This thread reminds me of that old saying,,,
'you can lead a horse to water but a pencil has to be lead'

YAWN

Stoned Hippy

Can anyone give some up to date information on what's needed to go to UK and get your licence there??

In an other note, any potential bike riders who want a fast way to kill themselves I can sort them out with a genuine Kenyan licence for about 80 euro - legal to use in Ireland for a year after you last visited Kenya!!

eurofoxy

MrPudding wrote: »

Genuine question. How much of this is the trainer's fault?

MrP

none! they were part of the process but the law was coming in even if they refused to cooperate. Its a european law, it will be in the uk soon enough. most central european countries have had this since the early 90s.

It was a joke of a situation that a young person could go into an office fill out a form and could legally drive a bike, you talk here about car drivers being bad, try out the few young lads who are the direct cause of this and all the new regulations coming in, they can also be directly blamed for the criminal insurance we have to pay.

Its quite simple the idiots who jumped on a bike with no lessons or any form of training then do silly things on the roads and even now with millions of claimed years of experience are still idiots they may know how to operate the bike but do not know how to drive.
Its these people who caused this no one else.

keithm1

MrPudding wrote: »

Genuine question. How much of this is the trainer's fault?

MrP

I would say 50% http://www.biker.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=137542&page=3 according to some here they were consulted when this thing came about, I personally know a well known bike trainer in Dublin and remember him filling me in on meetings he had with the rsa

Fact is you can fly to the uk ,stay over, eat out and fly back with a full unrestricted licence for the price of a provisional here
With your full licence your insurance will be half price straight away there's another saving.

When you get your provisional here you've to wait 6 months to apply for a test wait another 6 months to do your test factor in the cost of pretest doing test ect.... Then wait a further 2 years after you pass your test for an unrestricted licence
all the while the insurance companies are raping you for 3 years .
Over these 3 years you could be talking a saving of 3 grand plus .

Don't get me wrong
I'm all for training ive done some myself but I'm not for killing the bike scene in Ireland and at these prices that's exactly what's happening

wellboytoo

Its quite simple the idiots who jumped on a bike with no lessons or any form of training then do silly things on the roads and even now with millions of claimed years of experience are still idiots they may know how to operate the bike but do not know how to drive.
Its these people who caused this no one else.[/QUOTE]

Could not agree with you more, but our law makers allowed the situation to pervade. but know you are going to have to listen to some half fool telling you its the Guards (note spelling) fault for not stopping the poor drivers.....ffs

keithm1

Stoned Hippy wrote: »

Can anyone give some up to date information on what's needed to go to UK and get your licence there??

In an other note, any potential bike riders who want a fast way to kill themselves I can sort them out with a genuine Kenyan licence for about 80 euro - legal to use in Ireland for a year after you last visited Kenya!!

Cool I'll send you a check for 200 and you western union me back the 120 .
K

honeybadger

just said id ask since there are a few knowledgeble people on here interested in this thread,,are insurance premiums for motorcyclists going to go up in the long run for full liscence drivers because of this ibt discourageing new entrants from entering the market,,ie,less riders equals smaller market gains for the insurers groups,so equals to the rest of us with liscences having to pay extra cause the new riders will be discouragreed from entering the market with the higher costs now involved,,

Xios

honeybadger wrote: »

just said id ask since there are a few knowledgeble people on here interested in this thread,,are insurance premiums for motorcyclists going to go up in the long run for full liscence drivers because of this ibt discourageing new entrants from entering the market,,ie,less riders equals smaller market gains for the insurers groups,so equals to the rest of us with liscences having to pay extra cause the new riders will be discouragreed from entering the market with the higher costs now involved,,

Won't be a problem for me, i'm emigrating.

Alicia Leigh

Hi just wondering if anyone else is looking to do the IBT soon enough, because I read you can share the price if there is more than one person?

MrPudding

honeybadger wrote: »

just said id ask since there are a few knowledgeble people on here interested in this thread,,are insurance premiums for motorcyclists going to go up in the long run for full liscence drivers because of this ibt discourageing new entrants from entering the market,,ie,less riders equals smaller market gains for the insurers groups,so equals to the rest of us with liscences having to pay extra cause the new riders will be discouragreed from entering the market with the higher costs now involved,,[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/C0708805/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/05/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

I think it would be hard to answer that with any certainty. Whilst there might be less bikers, which obviously remains to be seen, there is likely to be less accidents amongst what new riders there are, again this remains to be seen, so whilst there are less premiums being collected there will be less payout from the smaller amount of premiums.

The potential amount paid out in a claim could be orders of magnitude more than the premium. If you have a rider that pays €1000 for his insurance who imbeds himself in a car but does not die, how much will his insurance company pay out? Avoiding one accident like this could potentially cover the loss of dozens of premiums.

MrP

EvilMonkey

honeybadger wrote: »

just said id ask since there are a few knowledgeble people on here interested in this thread,,are insurance premiums for motorcyclists going to go up in the long run for full liscence drivers because of this ibt discourageing new entrants from entering the market,,ie,less riders equals smaller market gains for the insurers groups,so equals to the rest of us with liscences having to pay extra cause the new riders will be discouragreed from entering the market with the higher costs now involved,,

Impossible to say. Biggest factor in bringing insurance down has been the small bit of competition recently. We need to make sure we don't loose that.

I reckon insurance today + IBT is still cheaper than insurance for people starting out when Hibernian were the only company insuring provisional riders.

GiggsCork

Im 15 and gonna book the theory test before i turn 16 in april. I bought a 50cc ped back in November before the IBT came in. Its not like im gonna be able to afford the 700quid for the test.

Do you think id be able to get around it, just get my insurance and head out riding?

Its not like peds get pulled often anyway, because im just a student who needs transport to school and work.

Also, Im gonna do the A1 license because I was thinking of getting a nsr after a few months, but lets ignore that for now!

keithm1

GiggsCork wrote: »

Im 15 and gonna book the theory test before i turn 16 in april. I bought a 50cc ped back in November before the IBT came in. Its not like im gonna be able to afford the 700quid for the test.

Do you think id be able to get around it, just get my insurance and head out riding?

Its not like peds get pulled often anyway, because im just a student who needs transport to school and work.

Also, Im gonna do the A1 license because I was thinking of getting a nsr after a few months, but lets ignore that for now!

Sorry pal it's been fixed so young lads such as yourself can't get motoring
You'll get a straight ban if you try what your thinking best just hold out till you can afford it

GiggsCork

Such a shame, another scam from the government, thats all we need

eurofoxy

keithm1 wrote: »

Sorry pal it's been fixed so young lads such as yourself can't get motoring
You'll get a straight ban if you try what your thinking best just hold out till you can afford it

unfortunately its more than a ban, according to my instructor its going to be dependent on the offense,
If its a serious traffic offense as in double the speed limit, and riding without licence or insurance (as the licence you would have after only theory is not a valid licence until completion of ibt and since no licence then insurance is not even valed if you can fool an insurance company into taking you on))
it would be a min of 6 months in prison and a ban for 10 years from all types of driving.

Its not the government although people would like to lump what they can on those criminals, this however is not their doing its an eu thing it is in almost every other country in the eu and ireland has to implement it in some form. just like the standardised driving licence, ireland is one of the last countries to implement it as their driving school standards were not up to the standards of the rest of europr hence the ibt for both car and motorbike.

KamiKazi

It's their fault for allowing Lisbon to be forced upon us!

keithm1

KamiKazi wrote: »

It's their fault for allowing Lisbon to be forced upon us!

Here here

KonFusion

eurofoxy wrote: »

unfortunately its more than a ban, according to my instructor its going to be dependent on the offense,
If its a serious traffic offense as in double the speed limit, and riding without licence or insurance (as the licence you would have after only theory is not a valid licence until completion of ibt and since no licence then insurance is not even valed if you can fool an insurance company into taking you on))
it would be a min of 6 months in prison and a ban for 10 years from all types of driving.

Is there any official source on what the punishment is for driving without the IBT? Been driving since december 10th without it, same with a mate, and just want a heads up on what to expect. Both of us got insured no problem with no 'fooling' of the insurance company required. Can't realistically see a judge putting me in prison and banning me for 10 years.


Edit: Also has anyone done the ITB yet?? If so how'd it go, and who'd you do it with? I need to do it soon to avoid prison etc :P :P

keithm1

eurofoxy wrote: »

unfortunately its more than a ban, according to my instructor its going to be dependent on the offense,
If its a serious traffic offense as in double the speed limit, and riding without licence or insurance (as the licence you would have after only theory is not a valid licence until completion of ibt and since no licence then insurance is not even valed if you can fool an insurance company into taking you on))
it would be a min of 6 months in prison and a ban for 10 years from all types of driving.

Its not the government although people would like to lump what they can on those criminals, this however is not their doing its an eu thing it is in almost every other country in the eu and ireland has to implement it in some form. just like the standardised driving licence, ireland is one of the last countries to implement it as their driving school standards were not up to the standards of the rest of europr hence the ibt for both car and motorbike.

Don't be getting excited there's never gonna be jail for it unless it's repeated numerous times
And it ain't the eu who told the greedy what to charge
sure they could take a classroom full of these lads in together for 90% of the bul ****e they've to learn and just charge full price for actual on the road training ,
But that wouldn't line anyones pockets though

keithm1

Module 1

Motorcycle Equipment
Motorcycles and their controls
Basic Technical Checks
Taking Machine on and off the stand
Basic Safety Checks (POWER)
Moving the Machine without aid of engine
Precautions before starting (FIGS)
Starting and stopping the engine

Module 2
(5 Hrs):

Carried out at Leinster Driving Campus - deals with:

Stopping the machine (Theory)
Moving off & Stopping in controlled fashion
Ride in a straight line
Correct use of brakes (all scenarios)
Gears selecting and changing
Rear Observation
Junctions Left and Right using the Observation-Signal-Manoeuvre (OSM) and Position Speed-Look (PSL) routines
Emergency stopping under full control
Slalom
U Turn manoeuvre
Figure of eight
Slow Riding under control
Explanation and Application of the Motorcycle System (OSPSL)

Module 3
(2 Hrs):

This is carried out at Leinster Driving Campus and deals with:

Legal Requirements for riding on the road
Importance of knowing the Rules of the Road
Visibility - "Be Seen"
Road Positioning
Rear Observation at appropriate times
Road surfaces and Traffic Conditions
Progress – Fast/Slow
Hazard perception and anticipation
Module 4
(6 Hrs):

This module is carried out on-road and deals with:

The application of Module 3 (in practice) whilst on a public road
Dealing with Junctions
Dealing with Roundabouts
Dealing with Traffic controls
Dealing with Hills (incline & decline)
Dealing with Hazards and Obstructions



Module 1
Taking the bike on and off the stand Jesus Mary and Joseph

Faith+1

keithm1 wrote: »

Module 1
Taking the bike on and off the stand Jesus Mary and Joseph

Lol!

LookBehindYou

IBT does not cost 700 euro. It can be got for a lot cheaper than that.

Xios

LookBehindYou wrote: »

IBT does not cost 700 euro. It can be got for a lot cheaper than that.

tits or gtfo.

wellboytoo

1.Can anybody on this thread tell me they have done IBT, and how much it cost them?
2. Can anybody on this thread tell me they requested a price from a bona fide IBT instructor, and received one?