IBT - The slow painful death of motorcycling in Ireland

MrPudding

keithm1 wrote: »

Module 1
Taking the bike on and off the stand Jesus Mary and Joseph

Yeah, we had that in the UK CBT as well. It is surprising how many people can't do it initially. Apparently there are actually people born who don't instinctively just know how to get a motorbike on and off its centre stand. Who would have thunk it?

MrP

MrPudding

KamiKazi wrote: »

It's their fault for allowing Lisbon to be forced upon us!

LOL! I thik it had little to do with Lisbon. The EU has had the power to drive this kind of initiative through long before Lisbon. That said, Lisbon does make it slightly easier for the Commission to punish states that do not comply, but I don't think there was anything specific in Lisbon for this.

MrP

Faith+1

LookBehindYou wrote: »

IBT does not cost 700 euro. It can be got for a lot cheaper than that.

Care to share with us???

Roadskill

keithm1 wrote: »

Module 1

Module 1
Taking the bike on and off the stand Jesus Mary and Joseph

You might think thats a joke but I've had many riders preparing for the full licence that couldn't put the bike on the center stand properly. It has to be included or some wouldn't know.

eurofoxy

wellboytoo wrote: »

1.Can anybody on this thread tell me they have done IBT, and how much it cost them?
2. Can anybody on this thread tell me they requested a price from a bona fide IBT instructor, and received one?

I was quoted a price by a guy in dublin of 450 euros, and since i had to use his bike and one or 2 bits of his kit it came in at just under 650.

Roadskill wrote: »

You might think thats a joke but I've had many riders preparing for the full licence that couldn't put the bike on the center stand properly. It has to be included or some wouldn't know.

I know how to do it and have known for several years, but what they teach is the correct way, which i will say was different to the way i used to do it and untimately easier.

Pique

Going back to the whole learner aspect and the call for direct access....I have a contentious statement to make.

Direct Access is a dangerous concept.

No-one wants a 33bhp bike for 2 years, right?

A Bandit/SV650/Hornet are all now called 'learner' bikes, and all with 50-70bhp or so.

Back in the 70s, a 900/1000 cc bike had about the same power, and was heavier (slower) and no-one called them learner bikes.

People used 150/250/350/400 cc bikes for an age and may never have desired a larger machine.

125/250 today ? Pah, that's a childs bike, I wanna R6/GSXR6/CBR6 minimum, unrestricted within the 2 year period and preferably a Blade/R1/1098.

These things are missiles and regardless of how good the course is to get a licence, jumping on a modern litre bike the day after passing your test is a recipe for disaster.

I've an SV650, btw, and am waiting for a restricted ECU before I ride it on my Learners Permit. I love the bike, but I like my life more, and topping out at 100mph+ is more than enough, ta very much. Then again, I'm mid-30s and with an ounce of sense and more a sense of my own mortality than an 18y.o. (or at least me at 18).

For the record, I think MrP had it spot on in his posts, and Kami seems to be taking umbrage that bikers should be more careful about their own lives than car-drivers should be about someone elses.

Tis a strange world we live in.

KamiKazi

Back in the '70s a two litre car was powerful! Now it's nothing special.

Roads are a lot better than they were in the '70s, as is safety gear.

It's all relative.

wellboytoo

KamiKazi wrote: »

Back in the '70s a two litre car was powerful! Now it's nothing special.

Roads are a lot better than they were in the '70s, as is safety gear.

It's all relative.

Yes but kids are still naive and think they are immortal, Kami what age are you and how long have you a full licence?

KamiKazi

wellboytoo wrote: »

Yes but kids are still naive and think they are immortal, Kami what age are you and how long have you a full licence?

I'm 23, full license less than 6 months, does it matter?

Is the newbie on an R6 anymore dangerous than the 17 year old in daddy's Impreza? To himself maybe but to anyone else no fvcking way.

Pique

KamiKazi wrote: »

Back in the '70s a two litre car was powerful! Now it's nothing special.

Roads are a lot better than they were in the '70s, as is safety gear.

It's all relative.

Cars now have (deep breath)
ABS
ESP/ASC
Airbags
Crumple zones
Disc brakes
modern (sticky) radial tyres
much better lights
independent coil sprung suspension
power steering
safety cells

Bikes now have:
disc brakes
sticky tyres.
better lights
better suspension


See the difference ? Cars have much increased safety equipment for the passengers, bikes are still bikes, only more powerful and lighter (so therefore faster). Granted, helmets, kevlar and much better PPE generally (personal airbag-type suits are gonna be de-rigeur in 10 years methinks) has improved the bikers lot.

It's a LOT safer in a car nowadays, even with the increased traffic.
I'm not sure you can say the same for bikes.

Feckin shame too !

Pique

KamiKazi wrote: »

I'm 23, full license less than 6 months, does it matter?

Is the newbie on an R6 anymore dangerous than the 17 year old in daddy's Impreza? To himself maybe but to anyone else no fvcking way.

To himself definitely !
To others, no, but he is still riding a machine capable of, what, 140/150mph?

Stick that into a car at high speed, and the car occupants will still be as dead as if the Impreza hits them, regardless of if the car pulled out in front of him or not.

I've read on numerous bike forums that you should 'ride as if every car driver is out to kill you'. Well, I don't think that will really sink into someone who just passed their test and picked up a bike capable of 150+ mph.

meh, just my opinion.

KamiKazi

And a 17 year old can't drive a car capable of 150mph?

Two ton of car will leave a considerably larger mess than 200kg of bike.

Del2005

KonFusion wrote: »

Is there any official source on what the punishment is for driving without the IBT? Been driving since december 10th without it, same with a mate, and just want a heads up on what to expect. Both of us got insured no problem with no 'fooling' of the insurance company required. Can't realistically see a judge putting me in prison and banning me for 10 years.


Edit: Also has anyone done the ITB yet?? If so how'd it go, and who'd you do it with? I need to do it soon to avoid prison etc :P :P

The insurance company will always take your money. They now don't have to pay out if anything happens so all you have is an expensive piece of paper to show the Gardaí.

Pique wrote: »

Going back to the whole learner aspect and the call for direct access....I have a contentious statement to make.

Direct Access is a dangerous concept.

No-one wants a 33bhp bike for 2 years, right?

A Bandit/SV650/Hornet are all now called 'learner' bikes, and all with 50-70bhp or so.

Back in the 70s, a 900/1000 cc bike had about the same power, and was heavier (slower) and no-one called them learner bikes.

People used 150/250/350/400 cc bikes for an age and may never have desired a larger machine.

125/250 today ? Pah, that's a childs bike, I wanna R6/GSXR6/CBR6 minimum, unrestricted within the 2 year period and preferably a Blade/R1/1098.

These things are missiles and regardless of how good the course is to get a licence, jumping on a modern litre bike the day after passing your test is a recipe for disaster.

I've an SV650, btw, and am waiting for a restricted ECU before I ride it on my Learners Permit. I love the bike, but I like my life more, and topping out at 100mph+ is more than enough, ta very much. Then again, I'm mid-30s and with an ounce of sense and more a sense of my own mortality than an 18y.o. (or at least me at 18).

For the record, I think MrP had it spot on in his posts, and Kami seems to be taking umbrage that bikers should be more careful about their own lives than car-drivers should be about someone elses.

Tis a strange world we live in.

DA isn't dangerous. The UK and a lot of EU countries have it years. If it lead to any increase of deaths it would have been knocked on the head a long time ago.

There has never been any study done to prove that power leads to accidents, most are caused by the riding too fast for the conditions or someone else hitting the biker.

Pique

Del2005 wrote: »

There has never been any study done to prove that power leads to accidents, most are caused by the riding too fast for the conditions or someone else hitting the biker.

Lack of training/experience = lack of control IMO.

Del2005

Pique wrote: »

Lack of training/experience = lack of control IMO.

Exactly.

It's all opinion and isn't backed up with facts. Do you not think that if governments could show a correlation between power and crashes they would?

wellboytoo

Is the newbie on an R6 anymore dangerous than the 17 year old in daddy's Impreza? To himself maybe but to anyone else no fvcking way.[/QUOTE]

No they are both just as dangerous, that is the whole point,youth and lack of experience and a powerful motor = Major Danger, esp on two wheels, hence IBT trying to bring some decent training into the whole licensing regime.
It is a fact that young Guys are a danger on the road, because their hormones get in the way of their brains, this is statistically proven, not a generalisation , hence the reason for my question.
There was a major failure in our licensing system this is an attempt to address it, some people don't like it on here because of alleged cost, yet only one person has come up with a price which was €450.00 not €800.00 as constantly alleged here. Which he qualified by saying "and since i had to use his bike and one or 2 bits of his kit it came in at just under 650.ffs one or two bits, like basic essentials like a helmet ?????

So lets see what happens over the next 18 months, my call is there will be a six month period whilst people will resist but when IBT for cars comes in in april , people will realise that it is still hugely cheaper to get a bike licence and be driving than to do it in a car.
But more importantly the new bike drivers will be better trained and have more knowledge than the present crop.
And the stats on bike deaths will drop!!

eurofoxy

wellboytoo wrote: »

Is the newbie on an R6 anymore dangerous than the 17 year old in daddy's Impreza? To himself maybe but to anyone else no fvcking way.

No they are both just as dangerous, that is the whole point,youth and lack of experience and a powerful motor = Major Danger, esp on two wheels, hence IBT trying to bring some decent training into the whole licensing regime.
It is a fact that young Guys are a danger on the road, because their hormones get in the way of their brains, this is statistically proven, not a generalisation , hence the reason for my question.
There was a major failure in our licensing system this is an attempt to address it, some people don't like it on here because of alleged cost, yet only one person has come up with a price which was €450.00 not €800.00 as constantly alleged here. Which he qualified by saying "and since i had to use his bike and one or 2 bits of his kit it came in at just under 650.ffs one or two bits, like basic essentials like a helmet ?????

if you must know it was jacket and pants as the lads in dublin airport customs were not happy with me bringing in a suit that had a liner which the tag had come off of so they said they would have to make a hole in it to test the liner to see if it was made of feathers.
To this i said no way as its 600 euro gear so i packed it up and left it with them and collected it again in 2 days time when i was leaving the country again.
I dont take my safety lightly, at the end of the day if the worst happens its this stuff that will save my life. so yes when people ask how much you should spend on gear my response is simple, how much is your life worth?


As for the ibt in my opinion its one of the best things to happen to irish motorists, finally there is a system in place to protect new riders, if they complete the course then they have at least reached a decent standard of driving and are much better prepared to be driving a bike.

KamiKazi

Ignoring the post I made showing a price of €800 from the first school I found online?

Nice.

eurofoxy

KamiKazi wrote: »

Ignoring the post I made showing a price of €800 from the first school I found online?

Nice.

thats a bit on the high side in all fairness, but i have seen the ibt, insurance test, pre driver test, and post test course for 2000, i dont think that the instructors are going to try to screw people over as they really dont make their money from bikers it car drivers that they make their money from.

Cuddlesworth

Del2005 wrote: »

Exactly.

It's all opinion and isn't backed up with facts. Do you not think that if governments could show a correlation between power and crashes they would?

They don't have too. Insurance company's provide all the info you need, a fact that you have politely ignored.

KamiKazi

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

They don't have too. Insurance company's provide all the info you need, a fact that you have politely ignored.

The same insurance companies that make a lot of money by making under 25s sound uninsurable?

Yeah, they're not biased at all.

Cuddlesworth

KamiKazi wrote: »

The same insurance companies that make a lot of money by making under 25s sound uninsurable?

Yeah, they're not biased at all.

I hear that a lot. Certain company's do make ridiculous quotes to young drivers because its a small market segment overall and carries a negative image, but others are priced reasonably considering the risk. But regardless of age range, the increase in power is relative to the increase in risk. If this wasn't the case then any insurance company could come in and visibly undercut the whole market taking all high power bike customers away which would be a huge market share.

wellboytoo

Old jewish saying

If six people tell you your sick,
Lie down

KamiKazi

wellboytoo wrote: »

Old jewish saying

If six people tell you your sick,
Lie down

What if those six people are trying to sell you expensive medication? :rolleyes:

Let's take two bikes, an R6 and an SV650. Both '99.

The SV puts out 70hp, the R6 120hp.

I can get insured quite easily on an SV for ~€700, but an R6 will cost me over €2,500 to insure it. Is the R6 really 3.5 times more dangerous than an SV? The SV hits 139MPH, the R6 hits 155MPH.

Can you really justify the increase in quotes?

wellboytoo

No of course i CANT!, but you can argue facts and figures all day but at the end of the day, I pay less insurance by a long shot , even though my machine is 1200cc, cos I'm fifty, it is based on actuarial experience across a large group, and it ahas always been that way, because kids kill themselves us oldies tend not to as much. and of course you are right Insurance companies are unprincipled robbing Bastads

MrPudding

Here are some interesting figures, from the UK mind you, but I would expect things to be fairly similar.

Looks like the 40 to 49 year old bracket should be getting loaded as well…

MrP


SOURCE: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/vehicles/licensing/

wellboytoo

Interesting stats Mr P , guys returning at 40 obviously should be looked at heavily, I returned at the same age, but made myself take a good few lessons, hence my conviction that training is needed for anybody who wants to ride a bike, the training has also made me a more careful and attentive car driver as a side effect!

Cuddlesworth

MrPudding wrote: »

Here are some interesting figures, from the UK mind you, but I would expect things to be fairly similar.

Looks like the 40 to 49 year old bracket should be getting loaded as well…

MrP


SOURCE: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/vehicles/licensing/

Does seem so. But it could also be a first time biker thing, that age group is perfect mid life crisis territory and cost is generally not a barrier to starting on a large engined bike regardless of insurance loading.

02mh

Del2005 wrote: »

No where near €20 for a car, more like €30-€40.

They can't provide crap gear as it will leave them wide open to our litigious culture. They have to buy gear for all sizes and even if they buy cheap stuff you're still looking at a big out lay. Then they have to buy multiple lid sizes and you'll be guaranteed that, if they ever get busy, one will be dropped at least every few weeks.

lets call it 40 euro an hour for aurgement sake 40*16=640 euro, not 800 and as for the big outlay what about driving instructors do they not have to buy a car thats upto date get them fitted with dual controls and insurances aswell.but im getting off the point call me stupid, but i didnt think the ibt was compulsory,i got out of my car to get on a bike for cheaper motoring,my arse is it with the cost of insurance and the ibt i can insure the car and tax it for another year in fact i could insure it and tax it for a year and a half,really this make me boil i could swing for the f***er that thought of this idea,im driving 21 years with not even a bump into somebody,i have driven everything from 1 ltr micra's to 5 litre bmw's and now trying to get a licence for a .125cc motorbike and the goverment say here you have no expericence on the road you better do this course,well ill tell you whats going to happen is, more and more people are going to say shag it ill drive with no insurance,tax or licence and when they have an accident (hopefully not)who pays out us the tax payer.

really what im trying to say is the goverment are a shower of w*****s

Faith+1

02mh wrote: »

really what im trying to say is the goverment are a shower of w*****s

I understand your frustration O2mh but lets not blame the Government soley for this legislation. The heads in Brussels are the main instigators for creating an EU standard of rules regarding Motorcycles.

Their goal is to impove rider safety, lower road deaths and stop licence tourists throughout the EU bloc.