Double standard of EU 'Prevention of revision of the Past'

marcsignal

i'll be back when the troll gets bored

Mahatma coat

Yeah, this is something that deserves Proper discussion, bout a month should do it;)

depaly

Morlar wrote: »

That is an odd phrase, I would not take it to mean work directly for the govt.

I would take it to mean they are working in that general direction, it would include people who engage in any of the many organisations involved in this underhand tactic :

http://giyus.org/
http://www.thejidf.org/

there are 2 examples, there are more. To the best of my knowledge they have in the past targeted boards.ie btw. There was even a report recently that the actual govt was starting a new organised and highly funded programme to achieve this aim too.

The phrase as I understand it would also include those on the lobby & advocacy side who are not technically a member of those mentioned or affiliated umbrella groups.

Israel and Jews are widely targeted on the Internet,
and other media of course.
From a wide range of sources.
From right wing neo Nazi hatemongers, to left wing
'freedom flotilla' types.....

In the circumstances, I would deem it prudent and
justifyable to have an organized 'defence' on the Net.

They have to repel media attacks, just as they have
had to repel military attacks on many occassions.
Fair play to them, I say!!!!

I understand that they are top men and women when
it comes to computers and the Net.
A lot of innovations in computers and mobile technology
originated in Israel.
So they are in a good position to defend themselves,
and put their case strongly - which seems to be a source
of anxiety and distress to Mahatma, as evidenced by
his recent post.

If there was a concerted Internet campaign to denigrate and insult
Ireland and the Irish - I doubt if you and your tech-savvy
friends would just laugh it off, and do nothing.

I think I may have discovered another actual 'double
standard'!!!!!

Unlike the storm-in-a-teacup one presented on this
thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mahatma coat

.....From right wing neo Nazi hatemongers, to left wing
'freedom flotilla' types.....

see maybe its Just me, but if the ENTIRE political spectrum is unified against your actions, Maybe, Just maybe it might be because YOU are in the wrong.

But you go on and convince yourself of the Absolute Truth and righteousness of the Zionist regime, and attack anyone who would dare to defend the Rights of an opressed people.

jonniebgood1

depaly wrote: »

From a wide range of sources.
From right wing neo Nazi hatemongers, to left wing
'freedom flotilla' types.....

In the circumstances, I would deem it prudent and
justifyable to have an organized 'defence' on the Net.

They have to repel media attacks, just as they have
had to repel military attacks on many occassions.
Fair play to them, I say!!!!

To compare Neo-nazi's to freedom flotillas is quite a jump, most involved in freedom flotillas have genuine peaceful intentions. Also your post, like Mahatmas hasbra shills comments, provide a very tenuous but unnesessary link between the past (as in crimes of') and the present (references to Hasbra and flotillas). I don't want to go off topic again but it is suffice to say that the current Israeli stance on human rights is ironic given their own peoples suffering in the past. As this thread is about crimes of the past rather than the present there is no need for the Israeli references.

depaly

marcsignal wrote: »

i'll be back when the troll gets bored

It's a well known phenomenon on
discussion boards, that a poster
who runs out of ideas or arguments
can, in desperation, be inclined
to accuse people
of trolling!!!!!!!!!

What's astonishing is that you've
only recently joined the discussion,
and already
you're bored!!!!!!!!!!

depaly

Mahatma coat wrote: »

see maybe its Just me, but if the ENTIRE political spectrum is unified against your actions, Maybe, Just maybe it might be because YOU are in the wrong.

But you go on and convince yourself of the Absolute Truth and righteousness of the Zionist regime, and attack anyone who would dare to defend the Rights of an opressed people.

You're the only one who has mentioned
the 'entire' political spectrum!!!!!!
As I said before - right wing neo Nazis
and left wing Israel haters like eirigi
are on the extremes of the spectrum -
strange bedfellows on the lunatic fringe!!!!

Also you introduced out of nowhere this
concept of 'absolute truth' which no one
was talking about, or claiming!!!!!

It's not very helpful to twist what people
say, provide an 'answer' to imagined opinions
and ignore/not address actual opinions!!!!

I 'dare' to respect and admire Israel and
it's people - whether you like it or not.

depaly

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Yeah, this is something that deserves Proper discussion, bout a month should do it;)

Shortest 'month' ever!!!!!!!!!!!

depaly

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

To compare Neo-nazi's to freedom flotillas is quite a jump, most involved in freedom flotillas have genuine peaceful intentions. Also your post, like Mahatmas hasbra shills comments, provide a very tenuous but unnesessary link between the past (as in crimes of') and the present (references to Hasbra and flotillas). I don't want to go off topic again but it is suffice to say that the current Israeli stance on human rights is ironic given their own peoples suffering in the past. As this thread is about crimes of the past rather than the present there is no need for the Israeli references.

The 'activists' wielding clubs and knives
didn't have 'genuine peaceful intentions'!!!!
You give an opinion on the 'freedom flotilla'
and 'the Israeli stance on human rights',
and then say it is off topic and we shouldn't be talking
about it!!!!
Talk about wanting it both ways!!!!

If you take the trouble to read my post again,
I was responding to Morlar's characterization
of pro Israel groups on the net.
Incidentally it was you who initially offered us an
explanation of 'hasbra shills'.
Morlar clearly thought it was ham fisted,
incorrect - or 'odd' as he put it!!!!!

I think, like a lot of people, you confuse
'human rights observance' with the right to
defence when attacked.
Your passing reference to 'their own people's
suffering in the past' is apt.
They went like lambs to the slaughter during
the Holocaust.
I will dare to back Israel's right to defend
themselves from a host of enemies since the
foundation of it's state.....
It should be one of the lessons of the
Holocaust.
Never again will Israel ( if not Jews worldwide )
respond meekly, and in a 'human rights' context,
to enemies bent on their destruction.
Even if anti semites and various 'hurlers on the ditch'
would like them to.....

And the same people who are critics of Israel and the 'Jewish
Lobby', are those who would seek to downplay the Holocaust
and amalgamate all oppressions and slaughters into
a single, all-encompassing but essentially meaningless
'declaration'.

See, there is a link!!!!!!!!

Manic Moran

Why do these things always happen when I'm about to go to bed?

Locking again, pending review during some quiet time at work.

NTM

Manic Moran

Unlocking.

Finally got around to catching up. I'm not exactly convinced as to where this thread is heading, or even if I should unlock it, but there have been no rule violations that have struck me since the last infraction was given.

The fundamental problem, it seems to me, is that the premise of the thread is based upon perceived subjectivity, so it is unreasonable to think that issues of subjectivity amonst the posters arguing one side or the other are not going to be brought forward.

NTM

Manic Moran

Apropos of an earlier post.

http://anthem-group.net/2011/01/27/romani-in-the-bundestag/

Zoni Weisz, holocaust survivor, the first ever Sinti and Roma guest of honour at Germany’s official Holocaust remembrance day in the Bundestag today, speaks out against discrimination

NTM

jonniebgood1

depaly wrote: »

The 'activists' wielding clubs and knives
didn't have 'genuine peaceful intentions'!!!!
You give an opinion on the 'freedom flotilla'
and 'the Israeli stance on human rights',
and then say it is off topic and we shouldn't be talking
about it!!!!
Talk about wanting it both ways!!!!
!!!

Perhaps they knew the welcome that people bearing charity to palestine have got in the past.

depaly wrote: »

If you take the trouble to read my post again,
I was responding to Morlar's characterization
of pro Israel groups on the net.
Incidentally it was you who initially offered us an
explanation of 'hasbra shills'.
Morlar clearly thought it was ham fisted,
incorrect - or 'odd' as he put it!!!!!
!!!!

Why are you so touchy about my explanation of this phrase. I think Morlar referred to the phrase as being odd so perhaps it is you who needs to re-read previous posts.

depaly wrote: »

I think, like a lot of people, you confuse
'human rights observance' with the right to
defence when attacked.
Your passing reference to 'their own people's
suffering in the past' is apt.
They went like lambs to the slaughter during
the Holocaust.
I will dare to back Israel's right to defend
themselves from a host of enemies since the
foundation of it's state.....
It should be one of the lessons of the
Holocaust.
Never again will Israel ( if not Jews worldwide )
respond meekly, and in a 'human rights' context,
to enemies bent on their destruction.
Even if anti semites and various 'hurlers on the ditch'
would like them to.....

And the same people who are critics of Israel and the 'Jewish
Lobby', are those who would seek to downplay the Holocaust
and amalgamate all oppressions and slaughters into
a single, all-encompassing but essentially meaningless
'declaration'.

See, there is a link!!!!!!!!

There is no link established in your post. Using the Holocaust as an excuse for modern day persecution of a race of people is a desicration of their memory. It is an example of not learning from our collective history, the holocaust memory does not by the way belong to 1 country. As to your final points I would point out that I do not like Israels modern behaviour yet have a respectful and genuine interest in proper memorial and memory of the Holocaust. You are welcome to search my previous posts on various threads relating to the Holocaust if you wish.

jonniebgood1

Manic Moran wrote: »

.

The fundamental problem, it seems to me, is that the premise of the thread is based upon perceived subjectivity, so it is unreasonable to think that issues of subjectivity amonst the posters arguing one side or the other are not going to be brought forward.

NTM

This is very accurate summary. From a posting point of view it is easy to get caught up in minor nuances avoiding the subject of the thread. I think post 219 by marienbad is the best explanation which perhaps may be a point for proponents of the threads allegation to take up???

marienbad wrote: »

...

I point out the the EU does not have a double standard as it has not now ,nor does it intend to to have either form of legislation,

I point out this is a single standard not a double standard and so they are completely consistant.

So, forget with the posting instruction please, all the various other, by you ,Me , depaly marcsignal, are actually off the point ig my statement is correct.

There is no double standard by the EU.

I agree 100% with this- countries within eu may legislate on this but to bring in such legislation as has been discussed in the initial posts would actually create a double standard.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

think post 219 by marienbad is the best explanation which perhaps may be a point for proponents of the threads allegation to take up???

Post 219 was already addressed in post 220

Morlar wrote: »

Are crimes of either regime treated in the same manner ?

If there was no Double standard then crimes of either regime would be treated in the same manner.

Please read the Guardian article and the bbc one at the top of this thread. It is not a requirement for h.d legislation to be enforced in 100% of eu countries for this to be correct.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/21/european-commission-communist-crimes-nazism

The European commission has rejected calls from eastern Europe to introduce a so-called double genocide law that would criminalise the denial of crimes perpetrated by communist regimes, in the same way many EU countries ban the denial of the Holocaust.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12059475

marienbad

Not really addressing the post though ,Morlar. People, lobbys, special interest groups petition cajole plead with the EU constantly to have laws enacted or issues recognised. From language recognition, corporate tax rates, abortion, neutrality (just to mention issues of Irish concern) to issues such as Holocaust denial and as you point out Communist era crimes denial.

The EU is doing the opposite to what you imply. It is maintaining a single standard, it does not have Holocaust denial or Communist Crimes denial legislation.

What is done in individual member states is beyond its competance as long as it conforms to current laws and treaty obligations.

Morlar

You don't have a point to address - you can not seriously claim that crimes of either regime are treated in the same way.

As has been pointed out repeatedly the fact that h.d legislation is not uniformly applied does not mean that there is no double standard.

From Post 1 of this thread :

*

Double standard in relation to the repeated attempts to introduce so called holocaust denial legislation across the rest of europe while deeming communist warcrimes, rape, murder, genocide and mass repression as 'political therefore local and not an eu wide matter'

marienbad

Morlar wrote: »

You don't have a point to address - you can not seriously claim that crimes of either regime are treated in the same way.

As has been pointed out repeatedly the fact that h.d legislation is not uniformly applied does not mean that there is no double standard.

From Post 1 of this thread :

Separate issue, Morlar, there is no double standard by the EU. And the thread and those links you posted are about the refusal to make Communist Crimes a law, and thus maintained a single standard.

Now if you want to change the nature of the discussion to individual countries , no prob

Or if you want to change it to the merits or either/or legislation -fine.

But as it stands the EU has maintained a single standard by not making either or, privileged.

Morlar

marienbad wrote: »

...

Look up and read this part slowly

*

Double standard in relation to the repeated attempts to introduce so called holocaust denial legislation across the rest of europe while deeming communist warcrimes, rape, murder, genocide and mass repression as 'political therefore local and not an eu wide matter'

It is also in Post # 1 of this thread and has been since day 1. It was not edited in Later it has been in post 1 since day 1.

Either crimes of both regimes are treated the same or they are not.

Crimes of either regime are simply not treated the same.

I reject your proposition that in order for there to be a double standard holocaust denial legislation needs to be rolled out in uniform compliance to All of the countries in Europe.

marienbad

Morlar wrote: »

Look up and read this part slowly



It is also in Post # 1 of this thread and has been since day 1. It was not edited in Later it has been in post 1 since day 1.

Either crimes of both regimes are treated the same or they are not.

Crimes of either regime are simply not treated the same.

I reject your proposition that in order for there to be a double standard holocaust denial legislation needs to be rolled out in uniform compliance to All of the countries in Europe.

Less of the condescension please Morlar, it does nothing for your argument.

I make no such proposition at all !

You are choosing the reasons for rejection as a double standard.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

Look up and read this part slowly...

It is also in Post # 1 of this thread and has been since day 1. It was not edited in Later it has been in post 1 since day 1.

Either crimes of both regimes are treated the same or they are not.

Crimes of either regime are simply not treated the same.

I reject your proposition that in order for there to be a double standard holocaust denial legislation needs to be rolled out in uniform compliance to All of the countries in Europe.

Perhaps it is you who should read your initial posts again.

Allow me to hypothesise with an obvious error to illustrate a point; You are taking the view that there should be an EU law regarding communist crimes in the same way as there is an EU law regarding Holocaust denial. This would avoid the double standard in law that is thus implied.

The problem with this (in italics) is that there is not an EU wide law on HD. So if the EU had actually went with the Lithuanian, etc policy it would have created a double standard as there would then have been an EU law on communist crime denial but not Holocaust denial.

If individual countries wish to bring in there own communist crime denial legislation, then surely they are free to do this in the same way that HD laws are legislated in Germany for example. The reason for the publicity of this has more to do with anti-communist rhetoric in some of the countries involved than you will credit (as I posted on first page of thread).

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Perhaps it is you who should read your initial posts again.

Post 1 Page 1.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

*

Double standard in relation to the repeated attempts to introduce so called holocaust denial legislation across the rest of europe while deeming communist warcrimes, rape, murder, genocide and mass repression as 'political therefore local and not an eu wide matter'

marienbad

Morlar

instead of referring us continuously to articles that are ,as this thread has plainly shown, open to multiple interpretations, can you state why you think there is a double standard.

Morlar

marienbad wrote: »

Morlar

........can you state why you think there is a double standard.

I am sorry but you are going to have to read posts instead. I have covered this repeatedly throughout this thread. In fact earlier on in this thread there was an exchange with you where I typed up multiple, lengthy and considered replies to which you then instantly clicked on the 'quote' button and utterly ignored. So with that in mind I would recommend you read some of my posts throughout the thread instead.

marienbad

Morlar wrote: »

I am sorry but you are going to have to read posts instead. I have covered this repeatedly throughout this thread. In fact earlier on in this thread there was an exchange with you where I typed up multiple, lengthy and considered replies to which you then instantly clicked on the 'quote' button and utterly ignored. So with that in mind I would recommend you read some of my posts throughout the thread instead.

In the absence of you stating an argument I must assume as jonniebegood1 hypotasised you misread the first extract and assumed there was a double standard when in fact there is not.

Thats me done with it

depaly

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Perhaps they knew the welcome that people bearing charity to palestine have got in the past.


Why are you so touchy about my explanation of this phrase. I think Morlar referred to the phrase as being odd so perhaps it is you who needs to re-read previous posts.



There is no link established in your post. Using the Holocaust as an excuse for modern day persecution of a race of people is a desicration of their memory. It is an example of not learning from our collective history, the holocaust memory does not by the way belong to 1 country. As to your final points I would point out that I do not like Israels modern behaviour yet have a respectful and genuine interest in proper memorial and memory of the Holocaust. You are welcome to search my previous posts on various threads relating to the Holocaust if you wish.

'People bearing charity' have somehow gotten that
'charity' into Palestine in the past, and in the
present. Without being 'attacked' by the IDF.

Everyone knows that the UN, EU and many
pro Palestinian activists are feeding Gazans.
The EU poured millions into the Arafat set up
in Gaza, for construction, education etc.
The fact that a lot of it ended up in Mrs
Arafat's swiss bank account is their loss.
The UN, EU, and many other groups are still
doing fine humanitarian work. That's their
job.

Hamas let them get on it, while they attend
to their business. Getting their hands on
rockets and missiles from Iran and Syria.....
Or from any other 'sympathetic' regime or group....
They welcome 'people bearing charity' - as long
as they don't interfere in the 'education' or
should that be radicalization of young Gazans....

You've conveniently ignored the fact that Hamas
were rocketing Israel at that time!!!!
Israel were justified in trying to insure that
they weren't given any more arms.
Breaking the naval blockade would have opened
the floodgates to rearming Hamas.
Not something that bothered the 'people bearing charity'
it seems to me!!!!
Or you, apparently.

I thought that you might have realized the 'freedom
flotilla' was a lot more than 'people bearing charity'.
Perhaps you naively thought that the people on the
boat who attacked Israeli soldiers were all merely
'humanitarians'????

It's obvious that if you have never heard a critic of
Israel also complain of the Holocaust being 'exaggerated'
or 'milked' - you clearly lead a sheltered life!!!!
No link or connection, indeed!!!!
The two don't always go together, but they're not
mutually exclusive either!!!!

And your simplistic, one-sided verdict on the Middle East conflict
as a 'modern day persecution of a race of people'
is a desecration of the truth, not the memory of
those who perished in the Holocaust........

Mahatma coat

The Mavi Marmara Massacres were an act of Evil and I would count them as a terrorism, howeever thats not what this thread is about.

This Thread is about the Percieved Double Standard of the EU regards the Crimes of different Regimes.

on the one hand the Crtimes of the Soviets are being treated as 'Political' and therefore in the eyes of some Lessened to the Crimes of The Third Reich, the article mentions that the EU is considering extending the HD Laws across all the states but when a proposal for sometihing simmilar regards the Soviet crimes the Reaction was Very different.

What we need to do here is look at the OP again, and DISCUSS THAT.

What we dont need to do is let the Hasbra Shills lead us on a merry Fvckin dance around till we are caught up arguing over the Fact that Altho Israel Demands that wew Respect Its right to exist it extends no such courtesy to te people that Graciously allowed them into THEIR Country.

if you want to go off on a tangent Deplay,

WHAT ABOUT PALESTINES RIGHT TO EXIST?????????????????????

shouldnt it have the same right to security and peace as its Neighbour???

Mahatma coat

Manic Moran

Mahatma coat wrote: »

For those of us who couldn't be arsed to waste three minutes of our lives, what is the point of that video and why do you post it without comment?

NTM

Mahatma coat

if you are one of Those unwilling to 'waste' 3 minutes the Tagline should be enough, I could try to explain it but its would be better if you maybe had a look at it and decided for yourself what its about.

BUT, Seeing as people have the attentin spanm of Gnats these days

Hasbra Shill tries to Guilt Finkelstein about comparing the Israelis to the Nazis
Girl is about 20, Says something about it being offensive to the people who lived under NAzi rule
Finkelstein points out that HE lived under the NSDAP and his entire Family was exterminated,
Also he decries the Crocodile tears of the Shill.

Quite a good argument that I may have butchered by my forced response