ESB & PowerMeters...do they exist in ESB's world?

Cabaal

For over a year now I've been using a efergy energy monitor, cost me 50e at the time and its allowed me to monitor my usage and see that certain things such as spot lights use crazy amounts of power.

I've adjusted my usage accordingly and I've managed to reduce my bills due to this, reducing my bills far better then just using energy efficient light bulbs

Anyway, I know "eventually" the ESB will roll out smart meters (how many years away before 100% rollout?) but given the ESB's commitment to people, the environment and saving money why don't the ESB push energy monitors like e-on and others have in the UK, Italy, France, Spain, USA, Canada etc?

Another Example of a energy monitors include:
http://www.currentcost.com/index.html

Energy monitors are cheap and the current cost one above even integrate with Google PowerMeter which is a free service located at http://www.google.com/powermeter/about/index.html

Yet for all of ESB's pushing of saving energy there is not even a basic energy monitor on the ESB store...yet your selling speakers and oil monitors??? - http://www.esbstore.ie/aspx/Homepage.aspx

So even though the ESB doesn't sell oil to a consumer you sell oil monitors but you don't sell a monitor to monitor the actual product you sell, this makes no sense. Unless of course the whole "energy saving" thing from the ESB's viewpoint is just a marketing thing that you don't really want to push but you still want to appear greento customers.

This section also mentions nothing of these devices - https://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/energy_efficiency/

These devices are very very easy install and don't even require a screw driver so why not suggest them to customers? If your going to start selling them when do you expect to sell them?

Fnergg

I see that Bord Gais also have those monitors for sale in their online shop:

http://shop.bordgaisenergy.ie/epages/BGE.sf/en_IE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BGE/Products/EF010_E2Monitor

They seem to be a good idea but it could be argued than rather than forking out €50 for one, a study of the ESB's Energy Efficient House should give anyone all the information required to reduce usage:

https://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/energy_efficiency/energy_efficient_house.jsp

Still, I appreciate that an actual real-time display of usage (and costs) - even if it's not 100% accurate - can be very effective.

Here is a review of monitors in the Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/3324648/Consumer-test-home-energy-monitors.html

The bottom line is that they are useful - at least in the short term (most users will proably ignore them as soon as the novelty wears off) - and so I would certainly support the inclusion of one or other of them in the ESB shop even if, as seems likely, they will only appeal to the already energy-conscious customer.

Regards,


Fnergg

Davy

In might be something to do with their trial of IHD (in house display) meters. If these are going to be rolled out, their is no point buying one of these stand alone units.

Fnergg

Davy wrote: »

In might be something to do with their trial of IHD (in house display) meters. If these are going to be rolled out, their is no point buying one of these stand alone units.

Probably. Although, as Cabaal said, it could be several years before smart meters and their associated IHDs are supplied to everyone.

Heroditas

Debatable whether IHDs will be supplied with smart meters.
Provision of the IHDs and maintenance & repair of them will add a significant cost to the smart meter rollout.
This is mentioned in the current public consultations.

There's a link to the first CER public consultation HERE and also the various responses, including discussions regarding IHDs.

Davy

Heroditas wrote: »

Debatable whether IHDs will be supplied with smart meters.
Provision of the IHDs and maintenance & repair of them will add a significant cost to the smart meter rollout.

Ye I guess it would be quite costly, the common sense approach would be if you want a smart meter with a IHD that you accept responsibility for the repair and maintenance of it, if they could implement it that way

Heroditas

Davy wrote: »

Ye I guess it would be quite costly, the common sense approach would be if you want a smart meter with a IHD that you accept responsibility for the repair and maintenance of it, if they could implement it that way

That's been suggested a few times but the problem is that people won't generally bother looking after them themselves.
The other suggestion has been that the various energy supply companies supply them as incentives to switch supplier. That way, ESB Networks aren't responsible for looking after them.

Davy

Heroditas wrote: »

That's been suggested a few times but the problem is that people won't generally bother looking after them themselves.
The other suggestion has been that the various energy supply companies supply them as incentives to switch supplier. That way, ESB Networks aren't responsible for looking after them.

Ye I like the second idea, makes sense. I take it for maintenance it would just be for batteries?

ESB CS: Chris

Hi Cabaal

Since we launched the ESB Online store www.esbstore.ie in September we have been actively testing energy monitoring devices with a view to selling them.

There are basically two different types of energy monitors on sale:

A) One that monitors the complete electricity usage in a home. Most of these use a current transformer clamp to monitor electricity usage. We have some issues with this type of device.
- We have a safety concern about our customers installing these clamps themselves onto cables (both ESB and their own) inside the meter cabinet or at their consumer unit (fuse board). These devices should be installed by an electrical contractor.
- These energy monitors only measure current (not voltage) and hence the electricity usage reading will be somewhat inaccurate.
- In buildings, such as apartments, the transmission distance of these devices is limited and the energy monitoring device may not pick up a signal from the transmitter.
- The electricity usage shown on the energy monitor is for the whole house and the device will not show the usage of individual appliances.

Plug-in energy monitors:
These devices measure the electricity usage of a single 'plug-in' appliance. In principal they work well and are safe to use. However, they cannot be used to measure 'fixed' electricity loads inside the normal home such as the immersion, electric shower, lighting, cooker, hob, water pumps etc. ESB have tested many of these plug-in energy monitors for accuracy and ease of use and we are still trying to find a suitable one !

We will continue our testing of energy monitors and it is our intention to make suitable versions available to our customers in 2011.

However, I appreciate that you would like to understand and keep track of the electricity used by appliances within your home. To this end we offer several tools to help our customers understand their electricity usage, which I have listed below:

Home Energy Audit
This will give you a personalised energy efficient report to help lower your electricity costs.

Appliance Calculator
This can be used to estimate how much home electrical appliances and lights cost to run and help compare the cost of using appliances in different ways (e.g. washing clothes at 40 degrees versus 60.)

Energy Efficient House
This is a practical interactive demonstration of how energy can be saved in the home.

Energy Efficient Lighting Guide
A handy guide which provides expert information on energy saving lighting options.

Energy Saving Wizard
An online tool which guides the customer through a series of questions about their home providing personalised energy saving recommendations indicating costs, savings and available grants.

If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Many thanks
Chris

Davy

Thanks for the detailed reply chris. Do you a have any info on the IHD's as part of the smart meters?

ESB CS: Chris

Hi Davy,

So far, ESB Networks has installed 10,000 meters throughout the country and provided over 1000 in-home displays (IHD's), as part of a smart metering trial. This trial will determine the best technology option for the roll out of this technology.

This trial will help understand how smart meters could best help customers manage their use of electricity. A final decision on the timing and nature of the full roll out of smart meters is expected to be made by Commission for Energy Regulation in 2011.

Unfortunately, I don't have any information on IHD's involved in the trial. We are however trialling many different types of smart meter technology. We will continue our testing of energy monitors and it is our intention to make suitable versions available on our online store to customers in 2011.

There is some more information on the website here.

Many thanks
Chris

Cabaal

Chris thanks very much for the responses, I look forward to you stocking energy monitors on the ESB store and also the eventual roll-out of smart meters.

ted1

chris will the smart meters offer quaterly hour billing. Will they port back via gprs?

ESB CS: Chris

Hi Ted1,

We are trialling a number of different technologies at the moment, so I would not be able to confirm the specifications of the meter technology at this stage. However, I have contacted my colleagues who work on this project and passed on your question to them. I will post back here if they can give me any more detailed information.

Many thanks
Chris

Heroditas

ted1 wrote: »

chris will the smart meters offer quaterly hour billing. Will they port back via gprs?

They'll certainly be able to offer Time of Use tariffs.
The most popular option at the moment is the GPRS option.
They have carried out tests on other technologies though over the last 18 months.
The customer behaviour trials have just concluded and the CER & ESRI are looking at the results before publishing their final report on the trials within the next couple of months. A key part of it is the Cost Benefit Analysis.
Once completed, they must then decide if a national rollout is go or no go.

ted1

cheers,

are you involved in the project in any way??

KM88

ESB CS: Chris wrote: »

Hi Cabaal

Since we launched the ESB Online store www.esbstore.ie in September we have been actively testing energy monitoring devices with a view to selling them.

There are basically two different types of energy monitors on sale:

<.... much technically correct but meaningless company claptrap snipped ... >

Many thanks
Chris

Will or won't the ESB offer these simple-to-use devices?
Yes or No?

At present, consumers want them and are buying them from ebay, Donedeal and various other third parties. UK power companies have been giving them away FREE for years now and their consumers generally find them very useful. Irish users, by-and-large know the limitations and are happy with what they learn from them.

We don't need a peer-reviewed, and robustly validated piece of laboratory kit. We don't want them to cross-check the figures on our bill - we want them to help us manage energy usage in our own homes and businesses. The physicists among us will know the shortcomings and the rest of us will still learn what we want.

These device do what we users want - but we can't buy them from our own state-owned energy supplier. Get off your high-horse and give us - your customers - what we want (feel free to add as many caveats as you want in the inevitable small print), but just do it.

...or else say you won't, but enough with the "evaluating", "monitoring", "investigating" stuff. This is simple stuff - not rocket science.

bassey

If you can get them off Ebay and Donedeal why do you even care if ESB:CS sell them?

From what I can gather they're simply saying that they won't be offering a product of this type until they can offer the absolute best product of this type i.e smart meters

Heroditas

ted1 wrote: »

cheers,

are you involved in the project in any way??

Hi Ted, sorry for not replying sooner. I had forgotten about this thread!
Yes, I was involved in it a while back and am still semi-involved.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

KM88 wrote: »

<.... much technically correct but meaningless company claptrap snipped ... >
.

Much important and relavent information snipped by you

This is important:
We have a safety concern about our customers installing these clamps themselves onto cables (both ESB and their own) inside the meter cabinet or at their consumer unit (fuse board). These devices should be installed by an electrical contractor.
- These energy monitors only measure current (not voltage) and hence the electricity usage reading will be somewhat inaccurate.
- In buildings, such as apartments, the transmission distance of these devices is limited and the energy monitoring device may not pick up a signal from the transmitter.

And: Don't overstate the demand for this monitors. As part of an SEAI project these were provided free in 2009 to the entire housing estate where my mother lives. At subsequent meetings it emerged that 68% were never installed. Of the remaining 32% only 15% looked at them after 3 months. Overall only 5% said they changed their consumption habits as a result of the monitors.
You want one then but it from the existing suppliers but why insist that ESB hold a stock of something few people will buy. I like to think ESB don't waste money (my money & yours) on such

Electric Ireland: David

Hi KM88,

KM88 wrote:

...or else say you won't, but enough with the "evaluating", "monitoring", "investigating" stuff.

We certainly appreciate the points you raised, and we do intend to have a plug-in monitor on offer in the short-term future.

However, and at the risk of repeating ourselves, points of safety can never be over-emphasized, and in this respect the aforementioned evaluation and testing of these devices is something we consider to be of the utmost importance. Secondary to safety are issues relating to accuracy/functionality, but we are of course determined that anything we do advertise for customers satisfy very high standards in these areas also.

I will announce it on this thread when we do have an energy monitor available on our ESBstore, and I trust it won't be too long a wait (weeks rather than months).

Violet Careful Shiner wrote:

As part of an SEAI project these were provided free in 2009 to the entire housing estate where my mother lives. At subsequent meetings it emerged that 68% were never installed. Of the remaining 32% only 15% looked at them after 3 months. Overall only 5% said they changed their consumption habits as a result of the monitors.

Thanks for the interest you've shown in this thread. The SEAI project you mention is undoubtedly of relevance; we hope, however, that customers that do take the initiative in this area we will able to avail of the products we offer, and that the overall interest in and awareness of such devices is in time raised, or revived, as the case may be.

Thanks,

David.

Technophobe

Was looking at one of these: Onzo Smart Energy Kit ...

Does anybody know how these things work with meter boxes that are located on outside walls..I live in a dormer bungalow built last year...The room to the inside of the wall where the box is located is the sitting room, so would I likely have to place the monitor in that room ???

I ask because it may not be the best place to have it located as in being able to keep an eye on it etc...

Any views welcome..

thanks

Cookie_Monster

ESB CS: David wrote: »

However, and at the risk of repeating ourselves, points of safety can never be over-emphasized, and in this respect the aforementioned evaluation and testing of these devices is something we consider to be of the utmost importance. Secondary to safety are issues relating to accuracy/functionality, but we are of course determined that anything we do advertise for customers satisfy very high standards in these areas also.

what makes the device perfectly safe and functional enough to be given out by power companies in the UK but not here? Is our power network and usage so radically and fundamentally different so they cannot be safely used?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Just because a company elsewhere doesn't have concerns does not mean we have to accept risks here.

Electric Ireland: David

Cookie Monster wrote:

what makes the device perfectly safe and functional enough to be given out by power companies in the UK but not here? Is our power network and usage so radically and fundamentally different so they cannot be safely used?

Hi Cookie Monster,

We appreciate your interest in this matter, but we are not in a position to comment on the above. We can only reiterate our previous point, namely, that we do have safety concerns in relation to clamp-on monitors for reasons previously outlined.

We are currently in the process of obtaining plug-in monitors for our ESBstore. We intend to have these available in the very near future, and trust that these will satisfy the demands of any energy-conscious consumer.

Thanks,

David.

KM88

ESB CS: David wrote: »

Hi Cookie Monster,
... we do have safety concerns in relation to clamp-on monitors for reasons previously outlined.

We are currently in the process of obtaining plug-in monitors for our ESBstore. We intend to have these available in the very near future, and trust that these will satisfy the demands of any energy-conscious consumer.

What safety concerns do ESB have that UK electricity suppliers don't have? I've read the thread and I don't see them "previously outlined".

Plug-in monitors are useful but they don't do the same job. They don't allow you to see the effect of turning on the immersion, the cooker, bathroom heaters or any other appliance what is hardwired. Neither will they tell you anything about your hourly energy usage profile.

I'm interested in the whole-house monitor version in order to assess whether a night-saver tariff might suit me better. Therefore I want to monitor total energy usage by hour. A plugin single appliance monitor will never do what I want so it is not an alternative.

And on that score, Moses had plug in single appliance monitors on the Ark! Why are ESB still evaluating them months after this thread started and years after they became commonplace in other jurisdictions?

What you're suggesting is akin to promising that you will soon be able to offer us a hammer to drive our screws. It might get the job done but it's not a good way of doing it, and I don't see what legitimate safety concerns you have that your presumably competent and technically qualified peers have not already addressed.

You're offering me a hammer to drive my screws and worse still, you're trying to tell me that that is what I want!

It's not so stop it now.:mad:

KM88

Technophobe wrote: »

Was looking at one of these: Onzo Smart Energy Kit ...

Does anybody know how these things work with meter boxes that are located on outside walls..I live in a dormer bungalow built last year...The room to the inside of the wall where the box is located is the sitting room, so would I likely have to place the monitor in that room ???

I ask because it may not be the best place to have it located as in being able to keep an eye on it etc...

Any views welcome..

thanks

The unit that clamps over the supply wire, whether at the meter or consumer unit, contains a wireless transmitter.

The display unit has a receiver. Normally, there will be no problem with the receiver picking up the signal from the transmitter within 50 metres of the transmitter - so there will be no problem with taking the display unit to the livingroom, sittingroom, garage, the far end of the garden or even to bed with you. (on second thoughts, there might be a problem taking it to bed, but you get the idea).

Outside walls, dormer bungalow, etc - no problem with reception I'd say.

Priori

KM88 wrote:

What safety concerns do ESB have that UK electricity suppliers don't have? I've read the thread and I don't see them "previously outlined".

Other people have read this thread too and can see you're pulling the above comment out of context: what was outlined previously if you read the thread again is that the ESB have safety concerns about clamp on monitors, end of story. :rolleyes: They can't comment on the merits or otherwise of UK electricity providers, maybe because they're more conscious of safety, or maybe because they're decades behind them, who knows?...

KM88 wrote:

You're offering me a hammer to drive my screws and worse still, you're trying to tell me that that is what I want!

It's not so stop it now.

Jeez man, bit of a personal axe to grind here, have we??

Cookie_Monster

ESB CS: David wrote: »

Hi Cookie Monster,

We appreciate your interest in this matter, but we are not in a position to comment on the above. We can only reiterate our previous point, namely, that we do have safety concerns in relation to clamp-on monitors for reasons previously outlined.

So what are the safety concerns then? I would have thought you'd be making it very clear to consumers, in documentation etc, that you find all of these currently available off the shelf product unsafe to use if that was the case, no?

All I see so far is the following

A) One that monitors the complete electricity usage in a home. Most of these use a current transformer clamp to monitor electricity usage. We have some issues with this type of device.
- We have a safety concern about our customers installing these clamps themselves onto cables (both ESB and their own) inside the meter cabinet or at their consumer unit (fuse board). These devices should be installed by an electrical contractor.
- These energy monitors only measure current (not voltage) and hence the electricity usage reading will be somewhat inaccurate.
- In buildings, such as apartments, the transmission distance of these devices is limited and the energy monitoring device may not pick up a signal from the transmitter.
- The electricity usage shown on the energy monitor is for the whole house and the device will not show the usage of individual appliances.

Only the first is anyway safety related and can be dealt with independently by qualified people (if a user so desires, or simply do it themselves)

ESB CS: David wrote: »

We are currently in the process of obtaining plug-in monitors for our ESBstore. We intend to have these available in the very near future, and trust that these will satisfy the demands of any energy-conscious consumer.

you make it sound like any device offered will be costly and probably attract an installation fee too. I think this is what it comes down to at the end of the day to be honest, marketing and money for ESB...

KM88

Priori wrote: »

Jeez man, bit of a personal axe to grind here, have we??

Quit guessing what the answers might be to questions that were not asked.
Read the thread again and maybe you'll understand my question.
And if you still don't, please don't reply again.

Thanks

Electric Ireland: David

ESB CS: David wrote:

I will announce it on this thread when we do have an energy monitor available on our ESBstore, and I trust it won't be too long a wait (weeks rather than months).

As promised, we now have a Plug-In Energy Monitor available.

Click here to have a look.

Thanks,

David.