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The NRA must be stopped
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Yawn, unfollow.
The only debatable issue is whether M6-Tuam should be Type 1 or Type 2 DC. The AADT justifies at least the latter. The former is going ahead. End of story.
This thread would never have got going if it weren't the holidays. Stop checking boards!
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This is completely and utterly unworkable.
Firstly, much of the traffic coming in along that stretch of road is not going anywhere near Ceannt. Even with the opening of a station in between you're not taking much away. The traffic going to anywhere other than the city centre and possibly Renmore won't use a P&R. People will not modal shift twice - they are not going to drive to an Oranmore P&R, get on a train and change to city buses.
Secondly, if a large amount of traffic DID use it, it would make Claregalway worse, particularly in the evenings with right-turners. Your idea of GSJing the junction is completely unworkable (due to the space required and also continuing to push all traffic through Claregalway) without effectively extending the N18 north of Claregalway, say to the N63 and putting a GSJ there.
Thirdly, the N18 from Claregalway to where it becomes DC would not be able to handle the extra traffic you seem to think would exist. The junction with the M6 is not designed for it, the traffic lights at Carnmore are not designed for it, etc, etc.
Fourthly, at times up to 30% of the traffic through Claregalway in a given direction are heavy commercial vehicles. I'd estimate another 20% are light commercials. Commercial vehicles of any description will not shift to a P&R.
http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm
Southbound outside the peak 2am - 6am period when total traffic varies between 19 and 93 movements per hour HCV traffic never exceeds 20%; i.e. it never hits even 10 movements an hour. The overall spike is 8 am to 9 am i.e. commuter traffic.
Northbound the spike is 4qm to 8am in percentage terms but again on very low traffic volume i.e. total movements of 25 - 86 between 4am and 7am with a whopping 14% of 208 movements at 8am. The spike in this direction is 4pm to 7 pm.
The overall AADT at Tuam is in the range 11,377 - 14,390 which is a long way short of the 22,000 at Claregalway.We're currently looking at the 150M for the dualling, a couple of mil for the extra station in Renmore (That realistically should be built anyway), maybe 40M to do the required road works at Claregalway... cheaper? Yeah right.
Galway
Commuter services in Galway at bare minimum will require a new station at Oranmore and a new passing loop which would cost approximately €6 million.
Reinstatement of double track Galway Athenry would cost approximately €40 million, however a full engineering survey would be required to confirm the exact engineering work which would be required. A full blown commuter service would require double track from Galway to Athenry and provision of several extra stations. Total all in costs for infrastructure is approximately €50 million. Rolling stock would be in addition to this figure. However in light of electrification in Dublin diesel powered rolling stock may be available at no cost.
http://www.railusers.ie/transport21/costs.php#galway
Best stop building silly railways and replace them with express buses...
There in lies the tragedy that is the Jackie Healy Rae school of political thought; CIE didn't want the WRC, Rail Users Ireland didn't want it and thanks to the number of level crossings the public don't want a two hour journey time for what can be a 65 mile journey.
M17 is no different; sure Dubhlinn has motorways, sure the West never gets nothing. If the ring roadis to be protected at peak commuter hours the M17 needs to stop as beyond commuter traffic at Claregalway there is no need for it. In these IMF days of austerity funds simply are not there to build motorways that are busy for 2-3 hours in each direction and can't hit 100 movements an hour for many hours; compare these counts to the N25 at Littleisland
Dublin Underground is not needed if you properly use the combination of Luas and Dart lines with Dublin Bus to full effect. Right now Dublin Bus is competing with both rails rather than feeding into the Dart and Luas.
So we are going to run buses over the loopline bridge? The Luas lines aren't even linked. Current Dart commuter rail capacity is limited to 35m pax and is much of the usage is crushloaded and running above capacity; only DU can deliver 100 pax capacity; which future proofs the system for another 30 years and will drain large amounts of rail traffic from many road routes in to Dublin making driving easier.0 -
Commuter services in Galway at bare minimum will require a new station at Oranmore and a new passing loop which would cost approximately €6 million.
Reinstatement of double track Galway Athenry would cost approximately €40 million, however a full engineering survey would be required to confirm the exact engineering work which would be required. A full blown commuter service would require double track from Galway to Athenry and provision of several extra stations. Total all in costs for infrastructure is approximately €50 million. Rolling stock would be in addition to this figure. However in light of electrification in Dublin diesel powered rolling stock may be available at no cost.
http://www.railusers.ie/transport21/costs.php#galway
RUI are not Irish Rail. They have no idea of how much it would actually cost. Additionally, seeing as the electrification in Dublin is happening in a later timeframe than the M17, your plan would involve either running with the extremely limited number of early 90s DMUs left due to the closure of the South Wexford and eventual delivery of replacement intercity railcars, or - purchasing more 29000s. More cost.
Their "bare minimum" doesn't provide for a car park, or the required access roads to *get* to said car park without having to either go through Oranmore village or Roscam. And if you were having to drive through Roscam to park up to change to a train, you may as well keep on driving in...
Your plan doesn't stack up on any level0 -
For a start; the park and ride section is income producing; i.e. the costs of building and running it are a lot lower than the revenues they generate.
Secondly traffic levels are falling nationally there is no rush; but transfering the rolling stock from Ennis - Galway would generate 2 rail sets with a further one from Rosslare - Waterford; that leaves only 3 sets to find to run peak time which will be delivered in 6 years once DU is completed.
The plan was put together by Mark Gleeson who knows what he is talking about. The plan got a very warm reception from the IDA who were very clear that they could work their new business parks to a configuration that made it work.http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTraffi...tml/N17-15.htm
Southbound outside the peak 2am - 6am period when total traffic varies between 19 and 93 movements per hour HCV traffic never exceeds 20%; i.e. it never hits even 10 movements an hour. The overall spike is 8 am to 9 am i.e. commuter traffic.
Northbound the spike is 4qm to 8am in percentage terms but again on very low traffic volume i.e. total movements of 25 - 86 between 4am and 7am with a whopping 14% of 208 movements at 8am. The spike in this direction is 4pm to 7 pm.
The overall AADT at Tuam is in the range 11,377 - 14,390 which is a long way short of the 22,000 at Claregalway.
You are very quiet on the above; like to compare and contrast with Littleisland0 -
Folks, discussions on plans for public transport and rail transport are best suited to the main infrastructure forum, not the roads forum. In so far as is possible, can we stick to the NRA's plans in this thread please. Thanks.0
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IMO, this is a stupid thread - saw the beginning of it and was hoping to quickly see its demise.
Sure let's dig up all the motorways we just built! :mad:
Oh, and I have seen another criticism of our new motorways by a poster on skyscraper City - describing us Irish as being in the 20th century. I take it that motorway use is on the decline in other Western countries! :rolleyes: I was in Spain only last year and the amount of road building there was unbelieveable. Even in Britain, they're still building motorways - Glasgow's M74 and M80 motorways, the A1(m) in the North of England, as well as the constant widening of the M1 and M6 motorways - all for this thing of motorways belonging to the 20th century. That's not to mention France and Holland never mind the USA and China.
As for motorways being removed in various cities around the world - the vast majority of those are ones that should never have been built in the first place - the one that was removed in Seoul (2005) was basically the equivalent of an elevated freeway down O'Connell Street in Dublin - of course no-one here would support such a ludicrous idea. The Embarcadero Freeway that was demolished in San Francisco would be the equivalent of a double deck freeway along Dollymount or Sandymount Strands or even the seafronts in Dun Laoghaire or Bray - of course such rubbish would never see the light of day in this country - we thankfully did not make these mistakes. In other cases, demolished freeways are fully replaced like the Big Dig project in Boston.
With the above in mind, let's put an end to all this rubbish - please, oh please let this post be the last one on this thread -
RUBBISH!!! :mad:0 -
Sure let's dig up all the motorways we just built
I am a little lost; what was your point exactly beyond having been on holiday to Spain and reading an irrelevant article about Skyscrapers?Unprovable, and still requires cash up front. I seriously doubt Pace-M3 is covering its costs let alone capital nor is it likely to.
Furet apologies for going off topic; I would invite Myob to adress the question I posted above; for a third time of asking.
There is a very good reason why it has bombed; see in italics the commentry of rail users Ireland
Phase 1 of the project will only bring commuters as far as Pace, north of Dunboyne. This terminal station has been billed as a 'Park and Ride' station for Navan commuters. What has been kept quiet is that it will take an 18 mile drive to Pace to access the park and ride facility. The tollbooth on the M3 is positioned such that commuters must pay the toll to access the Park and Ride facility making it unattractive and in our opinion a farce.
If the connection off the motorway were free or direct access from the adjoining area provided then commuters may have a budget left to make it worth their while to have an annual season ticket for the car-park for say €500 a year. Other ancillary revenue opportunities would include; car valet, 6 sheet advertising etc.
Back to M17
http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm
Southbound outside the peak 2am - 6am period when total traffic varies between 19 and 93 movements per hour HCV traffic never exceeds 20%; i.e. it never hits even 10 movements an hour. The overall spike is 8 am to 9 am i.e. commuter traffic.
Northbound the spike is 4qm to 8am in percentage terms but again on very low traffic volume i.e. total movements of 25 - 86 between 4am and 7am with a whopping 14% of 208 movements at 8am. The spike in this direction is 4pm to 7 pm.
The overall AADT at Tuam is in the range 11,377 - 14,390 which is a long way short of the 22,000 at Claregalway. You are very quiet on the above; like to compare and contrast with Littleisland
The figures speak for themselves there is no justification for this road; in addition the M3 has been an unmitigated disaster in economic terms and the NRA seem to be more bothered about buying land they don't need than preventing existing national roads being rendered ineffective by ribbon development despite the fact that under the NRA act every planning application adjoining an N route lands on their desk under their responsibility as statutory observer.
Government resolution no. 2 next year knock heads at the NRA and RPA for good measure.0 -
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The difference is those on Tuam would have avoided the only busy section of the route from Claregalway into the ring road and won't have paid round trip tolls to take the incentive out of it.
Are you going to address the point below and follow moderator advice to get back on topic?http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm
Southbound outside the peak 2am - 6am period when total traffic varies between 19 and 93 movements per hour HCV traffic never exceeds 20%; i.e. it never hits even 10 movements an hour. The overall spike is 8 am to 9 am i.e. commuter traffic.
Northbound the spike is 4qm to 8am in percentage terms but again on very low traffic volume i.e. total movements of 25 - 86 between 4am and 7am with a whopping 14% of 208 movements at 8am. The spike in this direction is 4pm to 7 pm.
The overall AADT at Tuam is in the range 11,377 - 14,390 which is a long way short of the 22,000 at Claregalway. You are very quiet on the above; like to compare and contrast with Littleisland0 -
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The difference is those on Tuam would have avoided the only busy section of the route from Claregalway into the ring road and won't have paid round trip tolls to take the incentive out of it.
Except they won't have avoided the massive queues in to Claregalway unless it itself is bypassed at a high cost. This is before we even get to the problem of what they do once they're dumped in to Ceanntt, nowhere near where most of the traffic is going.
It'll cost hundreds of millions and it won't relieve Claregalway, at all. Its not going to happen. On the other hand, the M17 is.Are you going to address the point below and follow moderator advice to get back on topic?
Due to you acting like a dog unable to leave a bone alone, not a chance. Pasting the same block of text three times is one of the most childish 'debating' (the term only loosely applying) tactics possible.0 -
Except they won't have avoided the massive queues in to Claregalway unless it itself is bypassed at a high cost. This is before we even get to the problem of what they do once they're dumped in to Ceanntt, nowhere near where most of the traffic is going..
That is rubbish; the biggest non-industrial employers are all within walking distance of the station, including City Council, County Council, Hospital, University, most retail and professional services firms. All you need is a modal split of 15% of daily journeys and the congestion relieving effects on the city would be immense.It'll cost hundreds of millions and it won't relieve Claregalway, at all. Its not going to happen. On the other hand, the M17 is..
The physical infrastructure was costed by Rail Users Ireland at €40m with large amounts of rolling stock becoming available as soon as Dublin Underground completes.Due to you acting like a dog unable to leave a bone alone, not a chance. Pasting the same block of text three times is one of the most childish 'debating' (the term only loosely applying) tactics possible.
You made the point that a very high proportion of this traffic was commercial; it clearly isn't just as no-one going from Cork to Derry goes through Tuam; no one is trying to debate with you just asking for a straight answer; not usually a lot to ask for on a discussion forum. If you cherry pick points and drive the discussion off topic what do you expect?
Should those road be built it will completely gunther the ring road in Galway such is the additional traffic load the future development along its catchment will spawn.0 -
That is rubbish; the biggest non-industrial employers are all within walking distance of the station, including City Council, County Council, Hospital, University, most retail and professional services firms. All you need is a modal split of 15% of daily journeys and the congestion relieving effects on the city would be immense.
You wouldn't get 5%. You'd get close to 0%, as the problem *is* Claregalway, and your plan does nothing at all to address this.The physical infrastructure was costed by Rail Users Ireland at €40m with large amounts of rolling stock becoming available as soon as Dublin Underground completes.
DU is 10 to 15 years off. RUIs costings are improbable. The N17 needs traffic relief NOW, not 10-15 years away.If you cherry pick points and drive the discussion off topic what do you expect?
If you want to accuse someone of cherry picking points, please answer every point put to you first. You don't.
As goes "future development along its catchment", this just shows you haven't got the foggiest idea about the road in question. What, exactly, is the catchment going to be, seeing as it is proposed to have the entirity of one interchange on it?
You're arguing against something you know little about, with no concept of spatial planning, no idea of the actual traffic and usage patterns on the road and a fanciful idea that people will drive significantly longer, passing through existing traffic problem spots, to get a train to somewhere not nessacerily anywhere near where they're going. Its like arguing with a vacuum of logic.0 -
You wouldn't get 5%. You'd get close to 0%, as the problem *is* Claregalway, and your plan does nothing at all to address this..
Then build a local 2 mile bypass and not a motorway to bypass the village; if a rail service were on 10 minute lead times at peak with small rail sets as is done in the Welsh valleys to serve Cardiff it would acheive its 15% split within 5 years.
.DU is 10 to 15 years off. RUIs costings are improbable. The N17 needs traffic relief NOW, not 10-15 years away..
DU will commence construction in 2012/2013; Metro North will be binned; don't forget where Lenihan Bros are in the polls.If you want to accuse someone of cherry picking points, please answer every point put to you first. You don't.
I'll take it you accpet the commercial usage on the M17 is negligable and that it is too all intents and purposes a commuter route that is congested only Southbound at morning peak and Northbound at evening peak.
For anyone new to the thread; this discussion is on the M17 section of the route and not the M18 section from Oranmore to Gort.0 -
Then build a local 2 mile bypass and not a motorway to bypass the village; if a rail service were on 10 minute lead times at peak with small rail sets as is done in the Welsh valleys to serve Cardiff it would acheive its 15% split within 5 years.
Absolute dreamland. Less than 15% of the traffic going through Claregalway is going to be terminating within walking distance of Ceannt.
The "2 mile bypass" of the village will also require one extremely large scale junction for the N17/N18. Lets also factor in the ribbon development either side of Claregalway. 6km DC bypass with a GSJ, then. Another 60M to add to your figure.DU will commence construction in 2012/2013; Metro North will be binned; don't forget where Lenihan Bros are in the polls.
If DU has a railway order by end 2012 I'll be surprised.I'll take it you accpet the commercial usage on the M17 is negligable and that it is too all intents and purposes a commuter route that is congested only Southbound at morning peak and Northbound at evening peak.
Absolutely and utterly not.0 -
Absolute dreamland. Less than 15% of the traffic going through Claregalway is going to be terminating within walking distance of Ceannt..
Roll the clock forward even forgetting the M17 and two new motorways have been pluggesd into the ring road; this will lead to a large rise in traffic even without adding a third the ring road will pretty soon be gridlocked at peak times. Rail travel which bombed in Ireland in the 1960's and 1970's took off again not just because Dart was a good service it took off because Dublin became gridlocked at just about the same time.
With that much additional route capacity feeding into the ring road you need to drain the froth or sit in traffic jams.The "2 mile bypass" of the village will also require one extremely large scale junction for the N17/N18. Lets also factor in the ribbon development either side of Claregalway. 6km DC bypass with a GSJ, then. Another 60M to add to your figure.
2 miles of DC costs infinitely less than 20 miles of motorway.If DU has a railway order by end 2012 I'll be surprised..
bye bye Lenihan Bros, bye bye Metro North hello DUAbsolutely and utterly not.
But you refuse to outline your view with any back up; I'm calling your finger in the air.0 -
With that much additional route capacity feeding into the ring road you need to drain the froth or sit in traffic jams.
People will still drive rather than either change modes twice (car-train-bus) or walk long distances.
Also, are you now admitting that additional journeys will be made or re-routed due to the new roads? Because your entire, laboured to death point about route planners ignored this entirely.2 miles of DC costs infinitely less than 20 miles of motorway.
Except it won't be 2 miles, it'll be more like 4. And then you have to bypass Tuam, and deal with the bad bits of road in between (this being something YOU keep deciding to not reply to). Then we get on to the work required to upgrade the N18 from CG to Oranmore - grade seperate Carnmore Cross, upgrade the M6 interchange, etc. Grade seperate the rail line which you will now be pushing 12 movements an hour over.
Add in the costs of your rail project and we're probably at the same figure. Just not a cohesive package that can be PPPed, rather stuff we need to pay for up-front.bye bye Lenihan Bros, bye bye Metro North hello DU
Explain how you build something without planning permission?But you refuse to outline your view with any back up; I'm calling your finger in the air.
My view comes from actual experience of using the road, commercially. Your view comes from an ivory tower.0 -
People will still drive rather than either change modes twice (car-train-bus) or walk long distances.
The mode split required is 15% tops; the main IDA business park for Galway for the next 10 years adjoins the line at Oranmore; so as old projects relocate to China the new ones can be placed in a location that has multi-modal access including rail and proximity to Air . CBD Retail, Professionals Services and Civic functions are all with 10 mins walk of the station. The other 85% will find the ring road less congested.Also, are you now admitting that additional journeys will be made or re-routed due to the new roads? Because your entire, laboured to death point about route planners ignored this entirely.
Not at all; most of the traffic not going onto the ring road wouldn't be from Tuam but M6, M18 and many of the people on the N63 who instead of plugging into the N17 would connect to park and ride at a point between Athenry and Oranmore.Except it won't be 2 miles, it'll be more like 4. And then you have to bypass Tuam, and deal with the bad bits of road in between (this being something YOU keep deciding to not reply to).
Then the status quo remains if costs escalate; not every town needs to be bypassed when you have reached Tuam the next town of any scale is Sligo. 5 minute delays at peak times are acceptable on what is effectively a commuter route; this is not like the old days where you rolled off the M4 to encounter Kinnegad; those levels of traffic simply aren't there.Then we get on to the work required to upgrade the N18 from CG to Oranmore - grade seperate Carnmore Cross, upgrade the M6 interchange, etc. Grade seperate the rail line which you will now be pushing 12 movements an hour over.
The existing N18 loadings would easily accomodate a roundabout of traffic light arrangement; M18/N17 would require grade seperation.
Taking the N18 figures at Gort which ballpark 11,000 - 12,000 you could probably divide those in 3 in terms of that uses what was the old N64 now renamed N18 given that Galway is the dominant destination in the region. http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N18-6.htmAdd in the costs of your rail project and we're probably at the same figure
€40m, 2 miles of DC and a flyover; I don't think soJust not a cohesive package that can be PPPed, rather stuff we need to pay for up-front..
Greece, PPP is dead as an off balance sheet mechanism and PPPs never had cost benefits as against simply tendering the works contract. Just like leveraged buy outs; PPPs are so last decade.Explain how you build something without planning permission?.
Fair point; it should clear planning by Q3 2011; CIE were a lot more prepared than the RPA going into An Bord; also DU unlike MN makes economic sense and the engineering is a lot simpler i.e. it is a tunnel under a city versus a tram line trying to be an underground and segregated tramway in the burbs.My view comes from actual experience of using the road, commercially. Your view comes from an ivory tower.
Then you obviously know that the road is ok save for peak periods and you also know that there is significantly more pressure on the ring road than the N17 even before further traffic is added to the equation.0 -
The mode split required is 15% tops; the main IDA business park for Galway for the next 10 years adjoins the line at Oranmore; so as old projects relocate to China the new ones can be placed in a location that has multi-modal access including rail and proximity to Air . CBD Retail, Professionals Services and Civic functions are all with 10 mins walk of the station. The other 85% will find the ring road less congested.
There's still not 10% there, let alone 15%.
UCHG is more than 10mins walk from Ceannt. NUIG is more than 10mins walk from Ceannt. GMIT is more than 10mins walk from Ceannt. Most of the shop staff likely don't use cars. About the only thing you're going to be making inroads on are the County Council staff who, realistically, shouldn't BE in a city that isn't even in their area of control.
There are substantial industrial sites nowhere near that IDA park, and then there is the elephant in the room of basically everything west of the Corrib.Not at all; most of the traffic not going onto the ring road wouldn't be from Tuam but M6, M18 and many of the people on the N63 who instead of plugging into the N17 would connect to park and ride at a point between Athenry and Oranmore.
One minute you had extra traffic, now you're denying there'll be extra traffic because you've just realise it blows holes in your earlier argument.Then the status quo remains if costs escalate; not every town needs to be bypassed when you have reached Tuam the next town of any scale is Sligo. 5 minute delays at peak times are acceptable on what is effectively a commuter route; this is not like the old days where you rolled off the M4 to encounter Kinnegad; those levels of traffic simply aren't there.
If you think Tuam is 5 minutes in peak times, it shows yet another glaring hole in your real-world knowledge. The only reason the next town of any significant size is Sligo is because other towns have already been bypassed on the N17. Tuam needs bypassing irrespective of what happens south of it.The existing N18 loadings would easily accomodate a roundabout of traffic light arrangement; M18/N17 would require grade seperation.
But your proposing adding significant amounts to the N18 loading (not that it would happen, see above for your dreamland P&R usage figures).€40m, 2 miles of DC and a flyover; I don't think so
Improbably low price (less than a third of what the actual rail operator says is required), impossibly short DC, pretending the N18 wouldn't need improvement... the only thing "I don't think so" can be applied to is your figures here.
Your proposal would be looking at close to 200M in works and would STILL not provide any significant modal shift, due to the countless reasons I have listed.Greece, PPP is dead as an off balance sheet mechanism and PPPs never had cost benefits as against simply tendering the works contract. Just like leveraged buy outs; PPPs are so last decade.
Off balance or not, its the only way we can actually fund this at the moment.Fair point; it should clear planning by Q3 2011; CIE were a lot more prepared than the RPA going into An Bord; also DU unlike MN makes economic sense and the engineering is a lot simpler i.e. it is a tunnel under a city versus a tram line trying to be an underground and segregated tramway in the burbs.
Seeing as the Stephens Green station won't exist in your brave new world where MN is cancelled you're looking at a revised railway order being required to allow DU's section of the station be built. Wouldn't be ready to break ground by end 2012.
By that stage, the M17 will be substantially complete.Then you obviously know that the road is ok save for peak periods and you also know that there is significantly more pressure on the ring road than the N17 even before further traffic is added to the equation.
No, I know the road isn't "ok". I know for a fact that Claregalway needs a bypass of significantly more than "2 miles", I know that Tuam needs a bypass and I know the road between Tuam and Claregalway desperately needs upgrading.
I'm giving up trying to reason with you, its become absolutely impossible. Refuse to deal with points then cry if anyone treats you in kind, slither around arguments when you've contradicted yourself, and a blinding lack of knowledge of the subject at hand - my 9 year old nephew can debate better.0 -
There's still not 10% there, let alone 15%.
UCHG is more than 10mins walk from Ceannt. NUIG is more than 10mins walk from Ceannt. GMIT is more than 10mins walk from Ceannt. Most of the shop staff likely don't use cars. About the only thing you're going to be making inroads on are the County Council staff who, realistically, shouldn't BE in a city that isn't even in their area of control..
UCG is 1.2kms or about 12 mins walk; UCHG is 1.5kms or 15 mins walk; I never mentioned GMIT. Retail is less than 5 mins walk as are most lawyers and accountants.There are substantial industrial sites nowhere near that IDA park, and then there is the elephant in the room of basically everything west of the Corrib..
I never mentioned dated industrial estates I was talking about the business park at Oranmore that exists adjoins the rail line and where the IDA are trying to place future job creation projects.One minute you had extra traffic, now you're denying there'll be extra traffic because you've just realise it blows holes in your earlier argument. .
By creating a park and Ride at Oranmore many people who used the N63 to connect with N17 will no longer do so but use R routes and the warren of backroads to connect with the M6 and then use the park and ride. The reduction in traffic is not just that hitting the N17 it is the ring road.If you think Tuam is 5 minutes in peak times, it shows yet another glaring hole in your real-world knowledge. The only reason the next town of any significant size is Sligo is because other towns have already been bypassed on the N17. Tuam needs bypassing irrespective of what happens south of it..
I have never had a delay of longer than 5 minutes in Tuam outside a match day.But your proposing adding significant amounts to the N18 loading (not that it would happen, see above for your dreamland P&R usage figures). .
I am proposing loading the section of the N18 that was formerly known as the N64; the quietest section of the road by a very long way.Improbably low price (less than a third of what the actual rail operator says is required), impossibly short DC, pretending the N18 wouldn't need improvement... the only thing "I don't think so" can be applied to is your figures here.
Your proposal would be looking at close to 200M in works and would STILL not provide any significant modal shift, due to the countless reasons I have listed..
The figures on the dual tracking are fine; the costs of a short DC I didn't give and you have in no way proved that a decent quality rail service wouldn't take off in the context of the ring road being gridlocked; gridlock is a point you have never addressed.Off balance or not, its the only way we can actually fund this at the moment..
Greece; Lenihan Bros, fear in markets, it is known debt and no doubt costs over the odds.Seeing as the Stephens Green station won't exist in your brave new world where MN is cancelled you're looking at a revised railway order being required to allow DU's section of the station be built. Wouldn't be ready to break ground by end 2012..
Not at all; it will be conditioned if required but as I am sure you appreciate that for reasons of fire seperation etc DU would always have needed to be able to function as a stand alone entity.By that stage, the M17 will be substantially complete..
Depending on whether BBC have a sovereign debt get out which they probably would exercise at the behest of their bankers and whether the IMF sign it off who knows; we live in very uncertain times.No, I know the road isn't "ok". I know for a fact that Claregalway needs a bypass of significantly more than "2 miles", I know that Tuam needs a bypass and I know the road between Tuam and Claregalway desperately needs upgrading..
There is a rationale for bypassing Claregalway but to what standard remains the question; 22 miles of motorway with an AADL of 14,000 tops at the other end of it and what 5,000 on the N64 section. Complete farce. Littleisland does 45,000 on Dual Carriageway.I'm giving up trying to reason with you, its become absolutely impossible. Refuse to deal with points then cry if anyone treats you in kind, slither around arguments when you've contradicted yourself, and a blinding lack of knowledge of the subject at hand - my 9 year old nephew can debate better.
Just deal with the point above.0 -
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UCG is 1.2kms or about 12 mins walk; UCHG is 1.5kms or 15 mins walk; I never mentioned GMIT.
Now I know you know absolutely nothing about Galway. NUIG is a 20 minute walk for me (I walk faster than the average person) from Ceannt station. That's from Ward's shop, not any of the buildings (add anywhere from 5 to 25 minutes depending on where on campus). I should know, I spent 6 years doing that walk.0 -
w2_3vc I'm going to ask you a few questions questions.
1) Do you realise that the vast majority of the over 230,000 people living in Galway live east of the Corrib?
2) Have you and idea where the employment is centered in Galway - wait that's rhetorical, you've proved you haven't. The vast majority of employment is not in Galway town, which is the area from Moneenagehsa Cross to the Headford Road to the Cathedral to the Claddagh (or the zone that you believe is 10-15 minutes walking distance from Ceannt station).
3) Why are you ignoring the population of all north east Galway as feeders into this road?
If you looked at the maps of the proposed routes, there's a junction at the N63, which is the Roscommon road. This road has towns such as Mountbellew, Moylough & Abbey-Knockmoy directly on the route, as well as several others near the route: Caltra, Killkerrin, Clonberne, Bearnadearg etc. I know living in these towns/villiages I'd much prefer to use a route that would getme to Galway quicker and is far safer than narrow single carriage way. The catchment area of this road is significantly larger than you are willing to contemplate.0 -
Now I know you know absolutely nothing about Galway. NUIG is a 20 minute walk for me (I walk faster than the average person) from Ceannt station. That's from Ward's shop, not any of the buildings (add anywhere from 5 to 25 minutes depending on where on campus). I should know, I spent 6 years doing that walk.
It is doable in 15 minutes; even if it were 20 minutes the total journey time from say Athenry or Oranmore would be significantly shorter than the drive; the problem with roads (beyond cost) is not getting between towns it is what happens when you get to the congestion on the ring road and from there to a City Centre location. Most students at DIT use DART and that dispersed campus is commonly 20 mins from DART; four things are needed for a rail service to develop; frequent,reliable service; a City Centre within 5 mins walk of the station and a planning framework particularly on the employment side to give higher densities for locations well served by rail and congested roads; the variables are there; when DART opened in 1984 in Dublin exactly the same arguments were raised such as industry having moved to Tallaght etc. It took less than 15 years for the network to run out of capacity.
I have never disputed that the population distribution in Galway is skewed towards the East, but you would have to agree that the M6 corridor into Loughrea and Ballinasloe along with the N18 catchment into Gort is far more populated than the route to Tuam or rural North East Galway.1) Do you realise that the vast majority of the over 230,000 people living in Galway live east of the Corrib?2) Have you and idea where the employment is centered in Galway - wait that's rhetorical, you've proved you haven't. The vast majority of employment is not in Galway town, which is the area from Moneenagehsa Cross to the Headford Road to the Cathedral to the Claddagh (or the zone that you believe is 10-15 minutes walking distance from Ceannt station).
There is enough employment in the centre of town plus future employment will not be sited in those locations because firstly the new IDA business park is railside and because as a local you know only too well; the ring road is already congested and that is before better access is added to ensure that more traffic is generated further out; that will inevitably lead to longer journey times and the worst access locations towards the north west of the city losing out to the Docklands for office based projects and Oranmore for IDA backed projects. There is also the massive surplus land holding at Ceannt Station which although fallow for the next 5 years will come into play.3) Why are you ignoring the population of all north east Galway as feeders into this road?
Bingo; 141 posts later someone has actually in one line summed up this project. I'll save you my views on development on unzoned land but will say that in the real World bad planning has created such a transport mess that a Dual Carriageway from N63 to the ring road probably is required at this stage.
The reason the title of this thread is so apt; is that unlike your honesty of saying I live here there is a traffic jam and I want a road the whole NRA approach was to come up with a complete fiction of an Atlantic Corridor; instead of specifying it as a dual carriageway; a class of road that does work just look at N25 at Littleisland that handles 45,000 AADT they designed it as a motorway and not only that a motorway that is far longer than it needed to be.
Just like the M3 this will probably be built, never hit its projected traffic loads, further congest the ring road and in 5 years another €500m will be required to build another road to clean up that mess. Only problem is that at the end of the four year programme Lenihan Bros have left us with there won't be €500m in the pot to build it; you will get to the ring road 10 minutes faster but you'll sit on something resembling purgatory called a ring road 20 mins longer.
Safe driving and have a pleasant New Year; it can't be any worse than 2010 unless you work for a quango because what has continued on in terms of money squandering after Bear Sterns, Lehmans , Dubai and Greece; waste got pulled in just about everywhere else a lot sooner; and a lot of those places will have a much larger say in how this once fully independent country will be run.0 -
It is doable in 15 minutes;
Yes this is true, if you walk at a speed Olive Loughnane would be proud of.even if it were 20 minutes the total journey time from say Athenry or Oranmore would be significantly shorter than the drive;
I used to walk, cycle, drive and get busses to NUI Galway form near Ballybrit. With a small bit of planning, driving took less than the walk from the bus stop at eyre sqaure. For the times when I had to be in at 9 am the bike was always best, but is not particularly safe in Galway. In three months I was knocked off my bike three times by drivers not paying attention.
Most students in Galway don't live in the city, they live at home in Moycullen Oughterard, Bearna, Spiddle on the West side, and all the towns and villages (and more) already mentioned in the east side.Most students at DIT use DART and that dispersed campus is commonly 20 mins from DART;four things are needed for a rail service to develop; frequent,reliable service; a City Centre within 5 mins walk of the station and a planning framework particularly on the employment side to give higher densities for locations well served by rail and congested roads;
Have all that: the station is in the city center, the railine ins in Renmore, most of the jobs are in the east side of galway along those congested road routes.
Lets look at the practicality of this suggestion. Using this line as a commuter rail service would be useless as the trains would have to stop somewhere like Ballyloughane, Mellowes Park or the entrance to the barrack. Shuttle buses would be needed, which would be running through heavily residential areas with lots of school traffic (mornings). And they would still hit up against the same traffic as have to use these routes from areas where there is no good public transport. Aa a plan this would not go down well in Renmore and would not be used by commuters.when DART opened in 1984 in Dublin exactly the same arguments were raised such as industry having moved to Tallaght etc. It took less than 15 years for the network to run out of capacity.
The dart and luas just take business of the dublin bus. The people that still find it more convnient to drive drive into Dublin. I work in Clontarf living in Kellester, mostly I cycle or get the Dart to work. When I have to I drive. That doesn't change the fact that there are dozens of parents living in the same office, with the same public transport links, who drive to work because they can drop off their kids at school in the morning and pick them up in the evening.
Public transport is a waste of time in Galway because of the simple fact that it has to share space with traffic that is coming from peoples where there is no reliable public transport to galway
You won't mind then acknowledging that these people contribute to a more than a 50% increase in the traffic using the N17 at claregalway. The two traffic counter points are at the junction near to turn off for Corundulla and near the graveyard in Claregalway. Between those points is the N63,the main route for a klot of this traffic to come to Galway. Traffic jumps from 15k to 23k after this. It's also well know that there are many rat runs around Claregalway, and anecdotally while these roads were bad over the past 7 odd weeks, the traffic though Claregalway has been far worse. It's believed by many people that a lot of cars use these rat runs because it takes so long to get through Claregalway.I have never disputed that the population distribution in Galway is skewed towards the East, but you would have to agree that the M6 corridor into Loughrea and Ballinasloe along with the N18 catchment into Gort is far more populated than the route to Tuam or rural North East Galway.
what locations? You mean like Mervue where two multinational software companies have picked for their offices in recent months.There is enough employment in the centre of town plus future employment will not be sited in those locations
Which one, the one in Oranmore or Athenry? Both true white elelphants, nobody to my knowledge has signed up and these are still largely greenfields sites. And the rail links to both of these are quite useless unless a majaor overhaul happens in the rail usage patters and WRC is actually run like a communter service (which it appears Iaranrod Eireann don't want to do, why else would it take 2 hours to go from Galway to Limerickbecause firstly the new IDA business park is railside
There is also an estate in Parkmore (Parkmore East) which is under development for more than 10 years, yet has only 3/4 buildings. This is severed by the most profitibile bus in Galway (fully 1/3 of bus eireanss passengers in Galway), which has access to the only bus lane in Galway. Seems to me that PT access is not a consideration for people locating offices/factories in Galway.
Yes, I am only too well aware that the road is congested. And please stop descirbing it as a ring road, that's another flight of fancy from the city council. It's not a ring road, not matter how it's described. We need the GCOB for that issue to be resolved, after which point I'll start listening to people who think that public transport can help. I'm a firm believer that PT can help, but not without fully providing the required infrastructure. Dublin has all the infrastructure it needs, but needs agency to mange how the PT is provisioned, instead of having the current free for all between providers.and because as a local you know only too well; the ring road is already congested
Galway has the problem that if we are to provide new rail systems, we're just going to be taking it off traffic, which will push traffic onto other streets making them worse. The luas woks in Dublin because they have the space for it. They can close off sections of road in Smithfield because there are several streets in the area. We couldn't close off Bothermore or College Road, it'd destroy traffic flow making the problem worse not better.
I take it you'll support the GCOB then in order to distribute the traffic to Knocknarcara without smothering the city your pet project in the docks, which an taisce seem to have problems with developing anyways.and that is before better access is added to ensure that more traffic is generated further out; that will inevitably lead to longer journey times and the worst access locations towards the north west of the city losing out to the Docklands for office based projects and Oranmore for IDA backed projects. There is also the massive surplus land holding at Ceannt Station which although fallow for the next 5 years will come into play.
Wait, a road to nowhere is a good idea (sorry Roscommon people) where as an a motorway that can serve these people and help provide infrastructure to allow increased industry in the area by making it easier to access Limerick, Shannon, Cork & eventually Rosslare though the Atlantic Corridor is a bad idea? What planet are you living on?Bingo; 141 posts later someone has actually in one line summed up this project. I'll save you my views on development on unzoned land but will say that in the real World bad planning has created such a transport mess that a Dual Carriageway from N63 to the ring road probably is required at this stage.
Regardless of you feelings about planning, development on unzoned land etc (where the hell did that one come from anyways) and bearing in mind that these towns, villages and townlands all existed before the famine - the population of North East Galway is not a product of one off houses. If you really want to aid the country I suggest that you write to the minister for the environmnet and ask him to prevent any new developments in the major cities in favour of starting planning now for increasing populations of these smaller towns to give the major cities a chance to get their infrastructure right. Galway, Cork, Limerick, Dublin, Athlone are all towns and cities that I have been to reasonably recently. I believe that all of these towns have hit their development capacity and need serious infrastructural investment (Galway & Dublin in particular, as you might have noticed in the news, have serious water issues).The reason the title of this thread is so apt; is that unlike your honesty of saying I live here there is a traffic jam and I want a road the whole NRA approach was to come up with a complete fiction of an Atlantic Corridor; instead of specifying it as a dual carriageway; a class of road that does work just look at N25 at Littleisland that handles 45,000 AADT they designed it as a motorway and not only that a motorway that is far longer than it needed to be.
Just like the M3 this will probably be built, never hit its projected traffic loads, further congest the ring road and in 5 years another €500m will be required to build another road to clean up that mess. Only problem is that at the end of the four year programme Lenihan Bros have left us with there won't be €500m in the pot to build it; you will get to the ring road 10 minutes faster but you'll sit on something resembling purgatory called a ring road 20 mins longer.
Safe driving and have a pleasant New Year; it can't be any worse than 2010 unless you work for a quango because what has continued on in terms of money squandering after Bear Sterns, Lehmans , Dubai and Greece; waste got pulled in just about everywhere else a lot sooner; and a lot of those places will have a much larger say in how this once fully independent country will be run.
Crawl out from whatever rock you're living under and take a look at the country. This has nothing to do with wanting a road nearby. I'll be the first to admit I was delighted to see the M6 open up, and with two accesses within 2 miles of my house. But what it means to me and what it means to Galway are two vastly different things. The M6 makes it easier to get into and out of Galway and provides greater access for buses and trucks. This means greater tourism and access for industry, which in this recessionary time is a good thing.
Until recently we have had third world infrastructure. Now we're borderline second world. If we want an economy we have to able to do more than send everyone to Dublin. Or do you seriously believe that a haulier in Limerick Should have to send a truck 300 km out of their way to Dublin in order to get to Derry? I remember the campaigns of the 80s and 90s to NOT have towns bypassed because it meant the death of these towns. Fast forward to the last decade and the same councilors were leading campaigns for bypasses because people felt trapped in their homes (because they were unfortunate enough to live on a main route to Dublin or where ever). If we don't take the opportunity granted to us by this recession, we'll just be damming a lot of the country to an economic death and eventually strangling our towns and cities.0 -
I am not going to argue each point as the thread has been done to death at stage; but would say that you have correctly identified where and why the road is needed; it is to serve a very large rural suburb that has sprung up over the past ten years off the N17 and N63.
I am glad to see that you also have a balanced view that pt can compliment projects such as the M6; but do feel that you undersell the attraction to International and National students that UCG offers dramatically I have met a lot of people in the field of medicine not from Ireland who have done a year or more at UCG and have built very successful careers in Fortune 500 companies on the back of what they have learned there.
My point on the M17 was not that the local population should be mired in gridlock; it is that without a sence of balance that they will remain mired in gridlock in a different location for a long time to come until such time as a rail infrastructure forms the basis of a new infrastructural provision that underpins key steps forward such as developing the docklands, Ceannt Station and the IDA business park at Oranmore. In the interim I see no objection to the N17 between the N63 and ring road being upgraded to DC standard.
I would ask one question of you to take a stab at, if AADT between Claregalway and Galway is 22,000; what is the AADT between N18 south of Claregalway and M6 at Oranmore?
I probably do walk faster than Ollie Loughnane on the street at least!0 -
This is just one reason, the others have also been been done to death on this thread. I disagree with calling north east Galway a suburb that has appeared over the past 10 years, but lets not let your ignorance of Galway spoil the fun.I am not going to argue each point as the thread has been done to death at stage; but would say that you have correctly identified where and why the road is needed; it is to serve a very large rural suburb that has sprung up over the past ten years off the N17 and N63.
No I don't. Medicine (and the bio-sciences) is one very small part of NUI Galway. The vast majority of students are from Galway and its hinterland. I know this because I spent 6 years going there, not from talking to people who have gone there.do feel that you undersell the attraction to International and National students that UCG offers dramatically I have met a lot of people in the field of medicine
The road you're proposing to Roscommon would be the white elephant you have described the M17 as being. That can only serve Galway. The N/M17 can help stengthen transport links for Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon & Leitrim. And the further developments for Letterkenny & Derry can further help this region, in that we don't have to be totally reliant on sending goods to Dublin. It will open up competition from the other ports (Cork & Limerick initallaly and later Rosslare as well) and not require hauliers to bring goods to though th UK to get to the continent. Many factories in the west ship to France, but they have to send goods through Dublin because due to the state of the roads south, getting them to Cork (for a direct ferry) or to Rosslare (to go to Wales, hence a shorted trip to Dover for the chunnel/ferry) is not practical.My point on the M17 was not that the local population should be mired in gridlock; it is that without a sence of balance that they will remain mired in gridlock in a different location for a long time to come until such time as a rail infrastructure forms the basis of a new infrastructural provision that underpins key steps forward such as developing the docklands, Ceannt Station and the IDA business park at Oranmore. In the interim I see no objection to the N17 between the N63 and ring road being upgraded to DC standard.
The M6 & M17/M18 projects were designed to be complimentary to GCOB and the so called ring road is already 4 lanes (It starts at the back entrance to the UCHG and is four lanes from there until it reaches the M6 and indeed past it to the roundabout in Oranmore). The rail services you propose are at best pie in the sky as the vast majority of people would have to use multimodal transport to get the ceannt station to travel from Oranmore (which people won't do as has been pointed out before). Many people that would get jobs in Oranmore would be moving there so as not top have to drive into town. I have listened to people frommany factories across Galway talking about moving to Parkmore and Oranmore over the past 10 years from sites in town, but they have always decided that it's no advantage to them. Moving from town means losing people that live in town.
That information isn't available, the only one that is suggests that through Gort the traffic flow averages at about 11k, peaking a couple of years ago at 13k (Aug 2007 - race week at the start of the month, go figure). I've never had reason to go south at rush hour, (I have gone both north and east at the same time) so I've no idea where the traffic backs up, only that it's always reported that the N17 at Claregalway always backs up (usually nearly to the N63 junction about 3 km), and the N6 used back up to Derrydonnell Cross (or tailbacks of up to 4.5 km). That said If i were to guess I'd say that at Oranmore, before the meeting the N6 (now R446) the traffic would probably would be about 80% of those at Claregalway. I think though, that we need someone from Clarinbridge to answer that, as they are in the firing line from all that traffic (pretty much like Claregalway on the N17, which has always been higher profile in Galway).I would ask one question of you to take a stab at, if AADT between Claregalway and Galway is 22,000; what is the AADT between N18 south of Claregalway and M6 at Oranmore?0 -
In the interim I see no objection to the N17 between the N63 and ring road being upgraded to DC standard.
That will encourage more urban sprawl and only benefits commuters to Galway city. Its a daft idea actually. What ring road are you on about? It's merely a dual relief road littered with very dangerous congested roundabouts.
In the interim? Do you not realize how long it takes before you can get a road scheme to tender given a project of that size?
The NRA should not be stopped, they know what they're doing. The M17/M18 and the GCOB are important missing pieces of our road network which we need now.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »This is just one reason, the others have also been been done to death on this thread. I disagree with calling north east Galway a suburb that has appeared over the past 10 years, but lets not let your ignorance of Galway spoil the fun.
I have with family there been visiting Galway City for over 30 years; the population growth east of the City in all directions has been spectacular in the last 10 years; with the M6 done congestion isn't what it used to be but compare traffic levels 1 mile east of Oranmore with 3 miles East of Ballinsloe at morning peajk and the figures are striking.antoobrien wrote: »No I don't. Medicine (and the bio-sciences) is one very small part of NUI Galway. The vast majority of students are from Galway and its hinterland. I know this because I spent 6 years going there, not from talking to people who have gone there.
Every regional university has numerous courses; the point I was making was that specific courses of which medicine is particularly notable have built reputations that draw people from a larger catchment than those living at home. Go to any City Centre bar during term time and you will meet a large number of students not living at home.antoobrien wrote: »The road you're proposing to Roscommon would be the white elephant you have described the M17 as being. That can only serve Galway. The N/M17 can help stengthen transport links for Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon & Leitrim. And the further developments for Letterkenny & Derry can further help this region, in that we don't have to be totally reliant on sending goods to Dublin.
If you were going to Carrick on Shannon you wouldn't go on the N17 beyond Claregalway; if you were going from Carrick on Shannon to Cork or Limerick you certainly wouldn't go on the N17. With Derry again you would go cross country along the M6 and up the N55. The strategic benefit simply is not there. The AADT counts half between Claregalway and Tuam; my guess is that they would half again by the time you hit the Mayo border. Commuters yes; intercity traffic a very small trickle.
Clearly a DC would be more than adequate; a motorway with a capacity of 50,000 is sheer farce.antoobrien wrote: »It will open up competition from the other ports (Cork & Limerick initallaly and later Rosslare as well) and not; require hauliers to bring goods to though th UK to get to the continent. Many factories in the west ship to France, but they have to send goods through Dublin because due to the state of the roads south, getting them to Cork (for a direct ferry) or to Rosslare (to go to Wales, hence a shorted trip to Dover for the chunnel/ferry) is not practical.
Anything in Mayo will go either N5 or N60/M6; they will also route through Dublin Port as there are more frequent sailings to Holyhead and cheaper shipping rates to Liverpool also the roads in South Wales are very poor quality; what is lost in geographical distance you get back in terms of faster journey times.antoobrien wrote: »The M6 & M17/M18 projects were designed to be complimentary to GCOB and the so called ring road is already 4 lanes (It starts at the back entrance to the UCHG and is four lanes from there until it reaches the M6 and indeed past it to the roundabout in Oranmore).
At peak times it is congested and will become more so.antoobrien wrote: »The rail services you propose are at best pie in the sky as the vast majority of people would have to use multimodal transport to get the ceannt station to travel from Oranmore (which people won't do as has been pointed out before). Many people that would get jobs in Oranmore would be moving there so as not top have to drive into town. I have listened to people frommany factories across Galway talking about moving to Parkmore and Oranmore over the past 10 years from sites in town, but they have always decided that it's no advantage to them. Moving from town means losing people that live in town.
You could be very right in respect of some businesses; however the reality is that certain projects will be off shored to Asia and replacement industries and services will be inserted to keep up an employment base; the former will certainly happen and you hope the latter happens on a large enough scale to offset the former. It is through a detailed 5 - 20 year plan that you create the correct base to make a rail system work; what would make a rail plan is not the current base it is providing a large supply of business space in the docklands and Ceannt Station and Oranmore. Is all that space going to be delivered in the next 2 years, no, can it be delivered over ten years, yes. Plan for the future.antoobrien wrote: »That information isn't available, the only one that is suggests that through Gort the traffic flow averages at about 11k, peaking a couple of years ago at 13k (Aug 2007 - race week at the start of the month, go figure). I've never had reason to go south at rush hour, (I have gone both north and east at the same time) so I've no idea where the traffic backs up, only that it's always reported that the N17 at Claregalway always backs up (usually nearly to the N63 junction about 3 km), and the N6 used back up to Derrydonnell Cross (or tailbacks of up to 4.5 km). That said If i were to guess I'd say that at Oranmore, before the meeting the N6 (now R446) the traffic would probably would be about 80% of those at Claregalway. I think though, that we need someone from Clarinbridge to answer that, as they are in the firing line from all that traffic (pretty much like Claregalway on the N17, which has always been higher profile in Galway).
I would have my own suspicions that 75% of the Gort traffic is destined for Galway as would at least that percentage of the N63 and N17 traffic.The M17/M18 and the GCOB are important missing pieces of our road network which we need now.
I can agree on the N18 and a section of the N17 beyond Claregalway being upgraded to DC; but there is no way that a motorway specification capable of handling 50,000 plus AADT was required for a route that is at 11,000 at Gort, 12,000 at Tuam and 22,000 at a pinchpoint in the middle. Are you trying to justify a 50,000 capacity on AADT of 11,000 and 12,000 respectively when the N25 DC handles 45,000 AADT?The NRA should not be stopped, they know what they're doing.
So how do you account for the M3 toll shortfall exposure reported in the Irish Times?
How do you account for the purchase of land that they have no planning consent or funding to develop?0 -
Quite a lot of the land payments going on at the moment are back-payments for the schemes that have been finished recently, NOT for new stuff. I could be wrong about this, but thats my understanding.0
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You are not wrong Chris
http://www.nenaghguardian.ie/news-detail.php?article=FOIZIKLimerick Co Council is the lead local authority on the Nenagh-Limerick section of the scheme. Executive Engineer Deirdre Hoolihy said the council is dealing with around 300 landowners on the scheme and that 80 to 90 per cent of CPOs have been settled since the council served notice to treat in March 2005. She said negotiations are still taking place with the remainder.
Similarly with Laois Co Council, which is the lead authority on the C a s t l e t o w n - N e n a g h scheme, Project Engineer Joe Kelly told The Guardian that the majority of CPOs on the scheme, which involves roughly 150 land parcels, have been settled. The council served its notice to treat in July 2006.0
This discussion has been closed.
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