God created the world, but is now dead ?

Satts

Do you think it is possible that a higher power created the world, but has since died and we are rudderless so to speak ?

Dades

Sure. It's just as plausible as any other god-theory I've heard.

Maybe more so, considering how utterly 'rudderless' our existence really is.

Killer Pigeon

No.

Satts

I've been sitting on the fence about religious matters for years while keeping up the pretense of believing for family(a private agnostic I suppose) saying to myself
"I will have a serious think about the whole thing when I get a chance and decide which side of the fence I'm on". I guess this is my time to decide.

For a while I was thinking to myself I don't believe in any of it.
But the more I see and experience I am coming around to except there may have been a higher power that started the ball rolling so to speak.
But I am considering the possibility that this "entity" may no longer be "alive" and that we are rudderless and because he is dead, at mercy of "his" unsupervised creation.

At the moment I do not believe in an omnipresent/omnipotent God, or an afterlife.

If I believe there may have been some kind of intial creator but I don't believe in the rest, would I be considered a "form" of agnostic or a "form" of Atheist ?

rccaulfield

yes.

Gambler

Maybe? :P

ChocolateSauce

No more or less plausible than the notion that he's still up there taking notes.

strobe

Satts wrote: »

If I believe there may have been some kind of intial creator but I don't believe in the rest, would I be considered a "form" of agnostic or a "form" of Atheist ?

Some kind of Deist would be the nearest description I guess Satts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Although deities are usually immortal, I don't think it's a requirement, as such. Then again, for some entity to create the universe it would have to have existed outside of time, at least at some stage, because time is thought to have 'begun' with the creation of the universe, at least our universes time, that is. So maybe they do have to be immortal. Hard to be mortal if you can exist outside of time. Plus if you can create time, if you can call it into being, it's hard to imagine that you would run out of it. Plus if you are creating energy and matter, completely form scratch, it's hard to imagine that you would be able to die. I mean couldn't you just alter yourself? Yeah, so if you have to call yourself something, 'agnostic deist' is probably the label that fits best, but it doesn't fit like a glove or anything.

Why do you think 'the creator' is dead, exactly? I guess while I'm asking stuff, why do you think there is a creator to begin with?

Improbable

What would be the difference to us between a deity who died and a deity who doesn't care?

Zillah

"Possible" is a fairly pointless word. "Plausible" is far more useful.

Is it plausible? No. No it isn't.

Dave!

OP it's a pretty speculative theory with no evidence to support it. If I were you I'd get out of the frame of mind that, because we don't have the answer to a particular question, that it's therefore reasonable to insert a deity as the answer. Historically that has been a tendency of most, if not all, cultures, and so far their accuracy has been pretty poor. There are no sun gods, there are no rain gods, there are no thunder gods, etc. If the last unanswered question, or one of them, for you is 'where did it all come from?', then why not just leave it unanswered? Admit we don't know everything and then move on with your life. Don't fall into the typical human psychological trap of plugging every gap with a god.

Galvasean

strobe wrote: »

Although deities are usually immortal, I don't think it's a requirement, as such. Then again, for some entity to create the universe it would have to have existed outside of time, at least at some stage, because time is thought to have 'begun' with the creation of the universe, at least our universes time, that is. So maybe they do have to be immortal. Hard to be mortal if you can exist outside of time. Plus if you can create time, if you can call it into being, it's hard to imagine that you would run out of it. Plus if you are creating energy and matter, completely form scratch, it's hard to imagine that you would be able to die. I mean couldn't you just alter yourself?

Maybe he became the universe....

Dr_Phil

Satts wrote: »

Do you think it is possible that a higher power created the world, but has since died and we are rudderless so to speak ?

There is certain likelilhood that there was a higher civilization that helped us, humans, skip millions of years of evolution - that could have gone either right or wrong - and change our genes to make us what we are. They may be dead, but they might have passed some of their best part to monkeys before vanished. How and why - nobody knows. If that fits the image of "God" - well that's what I think is closest to the truth.

Galvasean

Dr_Phil wrote: »

There is certain likelilhood that there was a higher civilization that helped us, humans, skip millions of years of evolution - that could have gone either right or wrong - and change our genes to make us what we are. They may be dead, but they might have passed some of their best part to monkeys before vanished. How and why - nobody knows. If that fits the image of "God" - well that's what I think is closest to the truth.

Seriously, what the hell are you waffling about?

robindch

Dr_Phil wrote: »

There is certain likelilhood that there was a higher civilization that helped us, humans, skip millions of years of evolution [...]

And who helped that "higher civilization" to evolve far enough so that they could help other species evolve?

mewso

Galvasean wrote: »

Seriously, what the hell are you waffling about?

Capricans, Taurons, Gemenons etc.

Satts

I have only recently decided to think about this stuff, feeling my way around and asking questions about all the possible options, I suppose to test myself as to the limits of what I will or won't choose to believe.

strobe wrote: »

Why do you think 'the creator' is dead, exactly? I guess while I'm asking stuff, why do you think there is a creator to begin with?

Why I think there might have been a creator is because the universe and nature is so complex and it seems implausible to me that something so complex is the result of random happenings.

Why do I think 'the creator' is dead ?
I am asking the question to set limits in my own mind, i.e. If there was/is a creator does it mean 'he' has to be immortal ?
When I think about our galaxy, I think of it as looking like a ghost estate, i.e. unfinished. If it is unfinished, did the creator die or just get bored ?
It may be perfectly finished, but to me it seems unfinished.

Improbable

Satts wrote: »

Why I think there might have been a creator is because the universe and nature is so complex and it seems implausible to me that something so complex is the result of random happenings.

I.E. "I don't understand how it came about therefore god made it"?

rccaulfield

Dr_Phil wrote: »

There is certain likelilhood that there was a higher civilization that helped us, humans, skip millions of years of evolution - that could have gone either right or wrong - and change our genes to make us what we are. They may be dead, but they might have passed some of their best part to monkeys before vanished. How and why - nobody knows. If that fits the image of "God" - well that's what I think is closest to the truth.

Skip? Do you realise how long and slow the process was to get our brains this size?

Zillah

Satts wrote: »

Why I think there might have been a creator is because the universe and nature is so complex and it seems implausible to me that something so complex is the result of random happenings.

What exactly do you mean "complex"? Some people seem to think that the universe is perfectly "designed". I don't get it. Blasts of radiation course about chaotically, planets and stars collide with each other all the time, stars become so big they explode, destroy entire solar systems or collapse into a point of such concentrated mass that the very laws of physics are crushed to nonsense. Not to mention that the whole thing is flying apart at the seams and will eventually be an infinitely large, empty, cold dark place where nothing occurs ever again, not even the vibration of an atom. The universe is a complete mess.

Putting all of that aside, how is the existence of a sentient super-entity that can create universes any more satisfying than the existence of the universe itself? It's such a cliche to even point it out, but if the universe is so complex that it needs a creator then what made God?

Satts

Improbable wrote: »

What would be the difference to us between a deity who died and a deity who doesn't care?

It wouldn't make much difference to us at the moment.

But if mankind was on the verge of extinction there is the possibility a deity who doesn't care on a day to day basis may step in to prevent us from becoming extinct. Or else leave us become extinct and start again. But a dead deity could do neither.

Improbable

Zillah wrote: »

Not to mention that the whole thing is flying apart at the seams and will eventually be an infinitely large, empty, cold dark place where nothing occurs ever again, not even the vibration of an atom.?

Zero-point energy contradicts this.

Satts

Zillah wrote: »

What exactly do you mean "complex"? Some people seem to think that the universe is perfectly "designed". I don't get it. Blasts of radiation course about chaotically, planets and stars collide with each other all the time, stars become so big they explode, destroy entire solar systems or collapse into a point of such concentrated mass that the very laws of physics are crushed to nonsense. Not to mention that the whole thing is flying apart at the seams and will eventually be an infinitely large, empty, cold dark place where nothing occurs ever again, not even the vibration of an atom. The universe is a complete mess.

Is earth just lucky that we are not caught up in this destruction, or is it coming our way, or is there something/someone protecting us ?

Improbable

Satts wrote: »

Is earth just lucky that we are not caught up in this destruction, or is it coming our way, or is there something/someone protecting us ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda%E2%80%93Milky_Way_collision

Dave!

Satts wrote: »

Is earth just lucky that we are not caught up in this destruction, or is it coming our way, or is there something/someone protecting us ?

Earth is going to be consumed by our sun when it inevitably turns into a red giant. However, just like 98% of the organisms that have existed on our planet to date, humans will more than likely be extinct before that occurs anyway.

There are dozens of other ways in which we might be wiped out prior to that, but that's our inevitable fate if we make it that far.

There's nothing special about Earth, or humans, if you look at it objectively.

Satts

Improbable wrote: »

I.E. "I don't understand how it came about therefore god made it"?

I don't understand how it came about.
Thats why I'm going on this journey. That's why I put it off for so long, because I know I will end up with more questions than answers.
I don't understand why so many random happenings came about so as to eventually produce a planet that supports lifeforms and that one of these lifeforms progresses to be able question how it all came about.
What was there before it all came about ?
Nothing ? A darkness ? How did this darkness come about ?

Satts

Dave! wrote: »

There's nothing special about Earth, or humans, if you look at it objectively.

Do you believe earth and humans came about by accident ?

Dave!

Satts wrote: »

Do you believe earth and humans came about by accident ?

Earth came about in the same way as other planets -- by gas, dust, etc., coalescing.

Humans evolved by natural selection, just as other organisms did.

We don't know how the universe came into existance, other than by rapidly expanding from a highly condensed, extremely hot state.

edit:

You have an extremely humanocentric view of the universe, brought about by the fact that you happen to be a human. It is inevitable that the Earth will be destroyed, and all humans will be killed. How does that fit in with your idea that we're special?

And if we were to find life on another planet, would that change your perspective at all?

Pygmalion

Satts wrote: »

Do you believe earth and humans came about by accident ?

Do you believe famine and plague came about through intelligent design?

bnt

rccaulfield wrote: »

Skip? Do you realise how long and slow the process was to get our brains this size?

I might recommend that chap find a copy of Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke. Science fiction from 1953 it may be, but (spoiler alert) it proposed the notion of a god (the "Overmind") made up of the collective intelligences of billions of species from around the universe. The next step in our evolution could be our last ... :eek:

Satts

Pygmalion wrote: »

Do you believe famine and plague came about through intelligent design?

No I don't. I believe the universe may have had a creator but 'he' maybe dead now and we are 'rudderless' and at the mercy of famines and plagues and anything else that might happen untill extinction or the end of earth or the end of the universe, which ever my happen first.

eblistic

Satts wrote: »

No I don't. I believe the universe may have had a creator but 'he' maybe dead now and we are 'rudderless' and at the mercy of famines and plagues and anything else that might happen untill extinction or the end of earth or the end of the universe, which ever my happen first.

Again... Why?

Satts

Dave! wrote: »

edit:
You have an extremely humanocentric view of the universe, brought about by the fact that you happen to be a human. It is inevitable that the Earth will be destroyed, and all humans will be killed. How does that fit in with your idea that we're special?

And if we were to find life on another planet, would that change your perspective at all?

I don't believe we are that special at all. If the universe had a creator, I'm not saying that the creator went on to specifically design earth and man. Or even if he did design earth and man that we are no more special and have no more meaning to 'him' than a plant or an animal.
Hence I don't believe in an afterlife.

If life was found on another planet I don't think it would change my mind one way or the other as to the exsistance of a creator.

Improbable

Improbable wrote: »

I.E. "I don't understand how it came about therefore god made it"?

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar??

eblistic

Satts wrote: »

I don't believe we are that special at all. If the universe had a creator, I'm not saying that the creator went on to specifically design earth and man. Or even if he did design earth and man that we are no more special and have no more meaning to 'him' than a plant or an animal.
Hence I don't believe in an afterlife.

If life was found on another planet I don't think it would change my mind one way or the other as to the exsistance of a creator.

Sounds more like imagining or speculating than actually, really, believing. No?

(I'm sorry I asked my question from the previous post, by the way, there are enough creationist/intelligent design threads already).

Dave!

Satts wrote: »

I don't believe we are that special at all. If the universe had a creator, I'm not saying that the creator went on to specifically design earth and man. Or even if he did design earth and man that we are no more special and have no more meaning to 'him' than a plant or an animal.
Hence I don't believe in an afterlife.

If life was found on another planet I don't think it would change my mind one way or the other as to the exsistance of a creator.

Fair enough, good to hear it!

But I still don't understand why you feel the need to create this narrative of a creator who has since 'died' -- you're just plucking it out of the sky! You could just as easily say, the universe was created by the disembodied soul of some anonymous turtle, and after creating the universe he then promptly went to sleep for 13.7 billion years (and he still hasn't woken up!)

And also, when do you propose that the creator died, leaving us to perish in his absense? I ask because, the very nature of how the universe is composed, from its very inception, made it inevitable that earth would be destroyed just like all of the other planets that have been consumed by their star. This means that your creator would have to have died while in the process of creating the universe -- a work-related accident, perhaps!

And honestly -- what makes you suppose that something so powerful that it can create the entire universe would just suddenly die?! You're totally just projecting human experiences onto the entity you've created in your mind. It's like the way the god of the Bible is petty, jealous, angry, vengeful, etc. These are such human emotions that it's quite clear that god was created in man's image, not the other way around.

Not having a go at you here, I know you're trying to come to terms with everything and you're only beginning to form your worldview, but it's worth pointing out the flaws in your thinking.

Start again from scratch and try to understand the universe based purely on evidence and observable science, making very few leaps or assumptions. This is the method that has resulted in the body of knowledge we have today, and it holds the most promise for answering the rest of the questions that remain. The most important thing -- it's perfectly acceptable to say "I DON'T KNOW!" Maybe some day we will... maybe some day we won't... That's just how it is.

Satts

eblistic wrote: »

Again... Why?

Why not be dead.

If no deity helps us when famine and natural disasters occur some of the possibilities are:

There was no creator.

There was a creator, but he died.

There is a creator but he doesn't care what happens.

There is a creator but he doesn't want to interfere, maybe with his longterm plan.

I would like to think there was a creator.
I don't think there is one still there and doesn't care.
I don't think there is one still there with a longterm plan and doesn't want to interfere.

But this is just my opinion at this stage in my life.

Satts

eblistic wrote: »

Sounds more like imagining or speculating than actually, really, believing. No?

True.

It maybe unfair of me to call a 'couple of months old speculation' of mine a belief, when I have spent so much of my life pushing all thoughts of the exsistance/non-exsistance of God out of my mind.

Satts

Dave! wrote: »

But I still don't understand why you feel the need to create this narrative of a creator who has since 'died' -- you're just plucking it out of the sky!

May be in the wrestling match that is going on in my head at the moment,
it is easier to believe there was a God and he died than to believe there never was a God.

At the moment I don't believe there is a God presently alive and i don't believe there is an afterlife. So my last 'obstacle' in becoming an Atheist or Agnostic is, " Was there ever a GOD ? " Maybe I'm not ready to go this final step, yet.

Satts

Dave! wrote: »

This means that your creator would have to have died while in the process of creating the universe -- a work-related accident, perhaps!

Health and safety is a bit better these days alright.

Pygmalion

Satts wrote: »

No I don't. I believe the universe may have had a creator but 'he' maybe dead now and we are 'rudderless' and at the mercy of famines and plagues and anything else that might happen untill extinction or the end of earth or the end of the universe, which ever my happen first.

Ah I get it now.
You believe that all the amazing good stuff, such as the universe, the earth, and human life, must be caused by an immensely powerful, all-knowing being, but that he suddenly died, despite being greater than the universe itself.
Coincidentally of course, he lived right up until we'd been created in the grand scheme of things, then died before he could be blamed for anything bad that's happened to us.

Sounds legit to me...

But let's go with it, if it was a being so powerful it could created the universe, the earth and the life on it, do you really think it wouldn't have foreseen all the natural disasters and plagues that would rampage through it?
Sounds like you're thinking of a being that could guide millions of years of evolution and create an entire universe, but then had no idea about how meteorology or biology works (despite presumably inventing them himself)

robindch

Dave! wrote: »

You have an extremely humanocentric view of the universe, brought about by the fact that you happen to be a human.

Satts

Pygmalion wrote: »

Ah I get it now.
You believe that all the amazing good stuff, such as the universe, the earth, and human life, must be caused by an immensely powerful, all-knowing being, but that he suddenly died, despite being greater than the universe itself.
Coincidentally of course, he lived right up until we'd been created in the grand scheme of things, then died before he could be blamed for anything bad that's happened to us.

No, he may have died before the earth was even formed. He may be just the creator of the big bang.

fisgon

Satts wrote: »

I would like to think there was a creator.

This is the key right here, this is the reason why humans for thousands of years have invented gods and supernatural entities, they (we?) don't want to feel like we are all alone, or that the universe has no specific purpose. We want to believe, so we do.

None of it is based on reality or fact, just as your idea that there may have been a creator once who has died is not based on fact or evidence. It's simply an idea, a supposition, but it betrays what you want to believe, not what is actually true.

Dades

Satts wrote: »

At the moment I don't believe there is a God presently alive and i don't believe there is an afterlife. So my last 'obstacle' in becoming an Atheist or Agnostic is, " Was there ever a GOD ? " Maybe I'm not ready to go this final step, yet.

Question: Do you believe there is / ever was a deity?

Is the answer is "yes" - then let me ask why do you believe it?

If the answer is "no", then you are an atheist.

Satts

Dades wrote: »

Question: Do you believe there is / ever was a deity?

Is the answer is "yes" - then let me ask why do you believe it?

If the answer is "no", then you are an atheist.

Do I believe there is a deity ? No.

Do I believe there ever was a deity ? Yes, at the moment.

Why do I believe it ? Because is it not an easier path for us to exsist from an initial creator rather than random happenings from chaos ?

Dave!

But then where did the creator come from? If the creator can have always just existed, then why not cut out the middleman and say that the universe (or whatever preceeded the universe we see today) has always existed? No need to introduce any magic into the mix!

Pygmalion

Satts wrote: »

Why do I believe it ? Because is it not an easier path for us to exsist from an initial creator rather than random happenings from chaos ?

No, not really.

We can't explain what created the universe, so we invent a magical being that's even harder to explain than the universe.
Think about that for maybe 3 or 4 seconds, you're not making it any easier, you're just adding another layer of difficulty.

Killer Pigeon

Satts wrote: »

Do you believe earth and humans came about by accident ?

Define accident.

Satts

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Define accident.

The random happenings out of chaos that made way for a planet to exsist and evolve to be able to initiate and sustain life and produce man who is able to exsist and ask the question "How was the universe formed ?"

Satts

Dave! wrote: »

But then where did the creator come from? If the creator can have always just existed, then why not cut out the middleman and say that the universe (or whatever preceeded the universe we see today) has always existed? No need to introduce any magic into the mix!

Interesting. Could something always exsist ? Would there not have to be a start point ?