Goodbye (LGBT forum feedback)

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

This is mountain out of molehill stuff.

To you, maybe. But please don't minimise or trivialise how it has affected me.

I started and moderated the Irishtrannie group for 8 years and quite honestly we have never had much of a problem even with 3500 members.

Oh good God Louise that is so untrue it is almost laughable. There have been horrendous fights on irishtrannie. It's only in the past year or two that things have settled down to a large extent.

You've outlined some of the differences between irishtrannie and boards.ie. The biggest differences are that irishtrannie is focussed on transgender only, and that it is more closed of a group, with tighter moderation, than boards.ie. In other words, it is what could happen on boards.ie if a seperate forum were set up for transgender. Not that I'm necessarily in favour of that approach.

Rev Hellfire

From what I can see (and I've only involvement in one thread) it was the "would you" thread is the root of the problem here.
To most people it was an open-ended question which was always going to get both those who are open to the idea and those who are against it.
That's the nature of an open forum like boards.ie you are likely to get both those which support your view and those who disagree with it, and that is a healthy thing to have as long as it is conducted in a civilized manner.

bodice ripper

liah wrote: »

I'm not transgender or even particularly knowledgeable on the topic (making an honest effort to learn, though) and I certainly saw exactly what Links234 was talking about.
.

Well, I did not, to be honest.

While i personally couldn't see the point in Boston digging his heels in to the extent that he did (in that it was clear that no one's opinion was likely to move there), I also couldn't see any reason for the massive blow up that followed.

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I still dont understand why such a large group of different people are lumped together in the one forum.

I think it is related to the stonewall riots. Previously ignorance regarding homosexuals meant that many straight people thought gays were men who wanted to be women. Also, it was a transgender who threw the first punch during the riots. Since then it's (supposedly) made political sense to have gays, bisexuals and transsexuals politically alligned. Even though being transsexual is not a sexual orientation, the term is misleading, one can be a-sexual and transsexual.

Anyway, back to the OP. It's rather sad to see these developements and people leaving the forum. I kind of had a feeling it would happen, as some people here fought tooth and nail to keep the T out of the forum. I've seen many a transsexual leave a certain other Irish LGB"T" forum in the past over similiar hypocrisy and transphobia. Personally I think it would have been a better idea to have a transgender sub forum rather than integrating it into the gay forum, as it just never seems to work. I really hope you don't leave OP, as that's exactly what the transphobes want. They want what they perceive as their exclusive "territory" back.

Azure_sky

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I agree strongly with Deirdres points that charter reform is needed. I also do think that having an extra Trans moderator is necessary

Yes. I agree totally, it's a must if a split in the forum is to be avoided.

Also this.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50774143&postcount=3

If a discussion on nature vs nurture in relation to the origins of sexual orientation is not kosher then logically the same should apply to the origins of gender dysphoria.

liah

Is further segregation really the route you'd prefer to go down?

I just don't think it's wise. At all. It's brushing the problem under the rug and giving the transphobic their way. Why can't the LGB community accept T? Of all the people in the world they should know what it feels like to be marginalized and judged based upon something they have no control over.

From a social standpoint I really do believe it's in the community's best interests to support each other, not divide each other-- each group faces very similar social scenarios: coming out to loved ones, dealing with bigots and stigma, accepting themselves for who they really are and learning to love themselves for it. It doesn't matter about the technicalities. Regardless of who's technically right and technically wrong, the people are going to be in the same position. What matters is giving each other support and being human with one another.

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

That way, the mods can have one approach for one forum and another for the other one. It really doesn't seem like it's going to work any other way, at least to me-- there's too much potential for someone who may be looking for help to be deterred by the constant feuding and bickering. If each was separate, more people could be helped with their issues when they so desperately need it.

Azure_sky

liah wrote: »

Is further segregation really the route you'd prefer to go down?.

It's not ideal but it can't be worse than the way things are now. I hope it does not become a necessary evil.

liah wrote: »

Why can't the LGB community accept T? Of all the people in the world they should know what it feels like to be marginalized and judged based upon something they have no control over.?

Short answer: They, well some of them, feel we are invading their territory. For the long answer check my locked thread in the LGBT forum.

liah wrote: »

From a social standpoint I really do believe it's in the community's best interests to support each other, not divide each other-- each group faces very similar social scenarios: coming out to loved ones, dealing with bigots and stigma, accepting themselves for who they really are and learning to love themselves for it. It doesn't matter about the technicalities. Regardless of who's technically right and technically wrong, the people are going to be in the same position. What matters is giving each other support and being human with one another.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

liah wrote: »

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

That way, the mods can have one approach for one forum and another for the other one. It really doesn't seem like it's going to work any other way, at least to me-- there's too much potential for someone who may be looking for help to be deterred by the constant feuding and bickering. If each was separate, more people could be helped with their issues when they so desperately need it.

Well they kind of can do that already by starting a thread in AH, as Links did. Interesting suggestion though.

liah

Azure_sky wrote: »

It's not ideal but it can't be worse than the way things are now. I hope it does not become a necessary evil.

I think it would just drive the divide even deeper, and I don't think that benefits anyone at all.

Well they kind of can do that already by starting a thread in AH, as Links did. Interesting suggestion though.

AH is a thanks pit. All it would do is piss people off, as you can see what happened with Links' threads it didn't do much in the way of education, just provided people with a lot more fodder for jokes. If it was kept in this section, the quality of discussion could be better kept.

Rev Hellfire

liah wrote: »

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

That way, the mods can have one approach for one forum and another for the other one. It really doesn't seem like it's going to work any other way, at least to me-- there's too much potential for someone who may be looking for help to be deterred by the constant feuding and bickering. If each was separate, more people could be helped with their issues when they so desperately need it.

Seems like a bad idea tbh, rather than looking to shift the problem into another forum a better idea is really to try and fix the underlying problems.

liah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Seems like a bad idea tbh, rather than looking to shift the problem into another forum a better idea is really to try and fix the underlying problems.

It wouldn't be another forum or anything, just two different sections for two very different functions.

The problem is, I agree wholly, it would be best to actually fix the problem, but in this case, I think it's asking a lot to try to change human nature. People are always going to keep acting the maggot. Teach one person and another new one rolls in. At least if there's two sections all the stuff that can offend can be herded into one and the other can be a place of support and safety.

If this were any forum than this one I wouldn't be suggesting it, but.. people in the LGBT community have to deal with a lot of things non-LGBT people don't and never will, if this has become a place of solace for some of the community and a place of education for others, why not have subsections for each so that there is no risk of something coming up that may negatively impact someone who really needs support?

It's a very sensitive topic for a lot of reasons, but the main reason is that it's the discussion of the identity of a human being and extra care needs to be taken. It's incredibly tough to moderate because hate can be dressed up as debate as we've witnessed with this uproar lately. Comments that attack a person to the very core of their being can slip under the radar because they're not immediately offensive or vulgar, but to ban such comments would be an infringement on people's freedom of expression. Redirecting them to a section designated to the controversial questions seems much healthier.

That, or just truck everyone who wants support off to Personal Issues and let the drama hounds overrun LGBT. But that doesn't sound like a solution to anything.

Darragh

Folks, just to let you know that we are looking at this thread and the threads in the forum and if we can help or you have ideas, drop any Admin a PM or email us in confidence to hello@boards.ie.

Chuchoter

liah wrote: »

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

Aside from anything trans related, this would be a very good idea anyway. PI doesn't know enough about being gay (I like PI but you know obviously if you haven't been through it and such) and posting in the LGBT forum can be a bit intimidating. As we are here, I think we could use a youth thread and a 26 year old I have no friends thread.

I am still very unsure of the trans moderator thing. You should be picked on ability and fairness not on what you are.

Annasopra

crayolastereo wrote: »

I am still very unsure of the trans moderator thing. You should be picked on ability and fairness not on what you are.

Well - in all fairness - It makes sense that the ladies lounge has female mods and the LGBT forum has 3 mods at the moment who identify as gay or lesbian.

I've never seen anyone demanding that the ladies lounge have a male mod just so that the most fairest and able mod is chosen.

I think it makes perfect sense and would help to address a lot of the problems. Sometimes as a mod I don't fully understand specific trans issues and if there is a trans mod then they will be able to understand them much better then I would. Women understand things that women talk about in the ladies lounge. I understand LGB issues and to a certain extent T issues so I can mod these but I don't always understand where the line is drawn on offensive posts because I don't always understand the specifics of trans issues. Most of the time its easy to work out. Sometimes its not. If you have a trans mod then they will understand trans issues much much better and be able to step in whereas someone like me might be watching on the sidelines and thinking "is that offensive"

Kiera

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Well - in all fairness - It makes sense that the ladies lounge has female mods and the LGBT forum has 3 mods at the moment who identify as gay or lesbian.

I've never seen anyone demanding that the ladies lounge have a male mod just so that the most fairest and able mod is chosen.

I think it makes perfect sense and would help to address a lot of the problems. Sometimes as a mod I don't fully understand specific trans issues and if there is a trans mod then they will be able to understand them much better then I would. Women understand things that women talk about in the ladies lounge. I understand LGB issues and to a certain extent T issues so I can mod these but I don't always understand where the line is drawn on offensive posts because I don't always understand the specifics of trans issues. Most of the time its easy to work out. Sometimes its not. If you have a trans mod then they will understand trans issues much much better and be able to step in whereas someone like me might be watching on the sidelines and thinking "is that offensive"

Wibbs is a lady? :eek:

Azure_sky

Exactly. A transsexual who has experiance would be able to dispense advice and would be privvy to what is and is not offensive to transsexuals. In fact, imo, that is the prime criteria of being selected as a mod-knowing the subject matter.

Wolfe Tone

I disagree, I don't think a mod shroud be gong in with any set agenda, other than to be a general good mod. I would be from the school that if someone has a bias they should not be given a position of mod.

I would be wary that a mod would react way OTT to a perceived slight against trans people, or at least leave themselves open to such accusations. Would a trans mod be able to remain impartial?

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I disagree, I don't think a mod shroud be gong in with any set agenda, other than to be a general good mod. I would be from the school that if someone has a bias they should not be given a position of mod. ?

Who said anything about a bias?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would be wary that a mod would react way OTT to a perceived slight against trans people, or at least leave themselves open to such accusations. Would a trans mod be able to remain impartial?

Would a gay mod be able to remain impartial to a perceived slight against gay people? One of the benefits of having a trans mod is to nulify bias, rather than exacerbate it.

Wolfe Tone

Presumably they weren't picked just because they where gay.


They would be going in with a set agenda, a bias towards trans issues.

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Presumably they weren't picked just because they where gay.

I'm pretty sure being gay is a prime aspect of being elected as a mod of the respective forum. Naturally they had other good qualities which made them suitable as mod material over other gay posters.

Presumably the hypothetical transgender mod will not be selected purely because they are transgendered either, but also because they have good mod qualities. There are plenty of transgender posters to choose from.

The reason for having a transgender mod have already been explained by Johnnymcg, who admitted he himself is limited in his understanding of gender dysphoria, and myself in previous posts.
There is a gay mod, a lesbian mod and hopefully we'll have a transgender mod.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They would be going in with a set agenda, a bias towards trans issues.

By that logic the gay and lesbian mods start every day with a set agenda, a bias towards gay and lesbian issues. Your arguements don't hold up.

Annasopra

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I disagree, I don't think a mod shroud be gong in with any set agenda, other than to be a general good mod. I would be from the school that if someone has a bias they should not be given a position of mod.

I would be wary that a mod would react way OTT to a perceived slight against trans people, or at least leave themselves open to such accusations. Would a trans mod be able to remain impartial?

Its not about having any agenda whatsoever. It's about having a good understanding of transgender or LGB or womens issues and therefore being able to moderate the forum better. I don't go onto that forum on a daily basis with some set agenda and biases that I am out to get straight people.

I am not some sort of homosupremacist with a biased gay moderation agenda.

Wolfe Tone

By that logic the gay and lesbian mods start every day with a set agenda, a bias towards gay and lesbian issues. Your arguements don't hold up.

They have been appointed to mod the entire forum, no? The impression I am getting is that a trans mod is being sent in to deal with trans issues. That would be like sending a republican in to moderate republican threads in politics, not ideal.

Annasopra

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They have been appointed to mod the entire forum, no? The impression I am getting is that a trans mod is being sent in to deal with trans issues. That would be like sending a republican in to moderate republican threads in politics, not ideal.

The idea behind a Trans moderator came from Deirdre_dub - No-one said that the trans mod should only mod the trans threads at all.

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They have been appointed to mod the entire forum, no? The impression I am getting is that a trans mod is being sent in to deal with trans issues. That would be like sending a republican in to moderate republican threads in politics, not ideal.

I believe they would work as a team, with a gay mod specialising in gay issues, a lesbian mod specialising in lesbian issues and a transgender mod specialising in transgender issues. Obviously, many issues on the forum could easily be dealt with by any of the mods, but there are times when specialised knowledge, experiance and empathy are needed to deal with the respecitive specialised issues. Hence the benefits of a varied team of moderators for the LGBT forum.

bodice ripper

to be honest, I am feeling very freaked out by the massive blow up over this. I didn't feel overly comfortable posting in the LGBT forum to start with becuase of the strength of the party line on some issues. It never dawned on me that it could go to this extreme level.

out of interest, do we have a bisexual mod?

Azure_sky

bodice ripper wrote: »

to be honest, I am feeling very freaked out by the massive blow up over this. I didn't feel overly comfortable posting in the LGBT forum to start with becuase of the strength of the party line on some issues. It never dawned on me that it could go to this extreme level.

out of interest, do we have a bisexual mod?

This issue has been going on for years in the LGBT community in Ireland and pretty much everywhere to be honest. There's been blow ups on other Irish LGBT forums due to transgenders being treated very poorly by some gays. I know one website in particular where this has been allowed to continue by the mods, who ignored requests for a transgender moderator, as a result the double standards grew exponentially and most of it's transgender posters left for fairer climes.

As for a bi sexual mod, I don't know if any of the current mods are that way inclined. Being bisexual is certainly not as big an issue as being trans. I should know. I've never had any hassle IRL or on the net for being bi sexual, being trans however is a totally different story...

bodice ripper

Azure_sky wrote: »

This issue has been going on for years in the LGBT community in Ireland and pretty much everywhere to be honest. There's been blow ups on other Irish LGBT forums due to transgenders being treated very poorly by some gays. I know one website in particular where this has been allowed to continue by the mods, who ignored requests for a transgender moderator, as a result the double standards grew exponentially and most of it's transgender posters left for fairer climes.

As for a bi sexual mod, I don't know if any of the current mods are that way inclined. Being bisexual is certainly not as big an issue as being trans. I should know. I've never had any hassle IRL or on the net for being bi sexual, being trans however is a totally different story...

To be clear, I don't comment on trans issues. I don't feel I have any real info on the area. I wasn't reffering to trans issues when I say I am uncomfortable posting cause of the party line.

I find "being bisexual is certainly not as big an issue as being trans" is unhelpful really. Says who? For every trans and bisexual person without fail? Shall we start assigning worth to each persons' contribution or feelings based how on how tough we think their life is? Isn't bisexual invisiblity one the chief things highlighted as a bisexual issue?

Links234

bodice ripper wrote: »

to be honest, I am feeling very freaked out by the massive blow up over this.

Do you not see how bullying and attacking an entire demographic of people in what is supposed to be a safe space for all LGBT people is a big deal?

bodice ripper

Links234 wrote: »

Do you not see how bullying and attacking an entire demographic of people in what is supposed to be a safe space for all LGBT people is a big deal?

I didn't see that happening. disagreeing on what makes someone female/male is a perfectly reasonable and predictable topic on and LGBT forum. And I think people are entitled to their opinions on this.

And that goes for gay and bisexual people too. I would personally rather not see someone get banned for saying that is was unnatural.


Now I can see that people on both sides were being deliberately obtuse. I found Boston's tone grating, and deirdre quick to offence.

Do we need a "safe space" to talk like adults? Are we children or in some way compromised mentally? Do we need a school yard monitor to run to if some one tells us we are sick, that they don't agree with our views on gender or fooling ourselves en route to gay?



*edit - I may have missed some particularly out of line exchange at some point

Nevyn

liah wrote: »

Why can't the LGB community accept T? Of all the people in the world they should know what it feels like to be marginalized and judged based upon something they have no control over.

This is not the case for a lot of young people who are growing up in the country for the last 15 years. Many came out with out a lot of fuss and to the love and acceptance of family and thier peers adjusted well. As a result they do not know what it is to be marginalized in that way and feel they have no common ground with a demographic which historically and socially linked.

As for a 'panel' of mods, I don't think that is needed, as along as the mods are approachable and take on board the different issues, I don't think the current mods are lacking, I do think the forum and community is under going growth atm and re defining it's self after the addition of T to the forum finally. It's going to take time.

Azure_sky

bodice ripper wrote: »

I find "being bisexual is certainly not as big an issue as being trans" is unhelpful really. Says who? For every trans and bisexual person without fail? Shall we start assigning worth to each persons' contribution or feelings based how on how tough we think their life is? Isn't bisexual invisiblity one the chief things highlighted as a bisexual issue?

Well being transgender is considered a greater social deviance than being bi sexual. Also a transsexual during transition may not be able to hide the fact that they are TS, unlike, a bi sexual, which of course means a TS person has a greater chance of being discriminated against in job interviews and suffering verbal and physical assualts. Funny you mention that bisexual invisibility is a bi sexual issue, as it's something I as a transgender would crave-to simply blend into society.

Also many transsexuals are bi sexual. Most of the ones I know are bi sexual in fact. So not only do transsexuals need to deal with bigotry against their orientation, they also have to deal with bigotry against their gender dysphoria. So logically being trans is a bigger issue than being bi, as you have double the prejeudice to deal with. That's not saying that being bi is a piece of cake either.