Goodbye (LGBT forum feedback)

Azure_sky

bodice ripper wrote: »

I didn't see that happening. disagreeing on what makes someone female/male is a perfectly reasonable and predictable topic on and LGBT forum. And I think people are entitled to their opinions on this.

Notice the charter of the lgbt forum states that debates on what predicates homosexuality are not kosher, but, currently, it's fine to debate on what predicates gender dysphoria.

This hypocrisy and double standards is the root cause as to why so many people are upset, leaving the forum and taking breaks.

bodice ripper wrote: »

And that goes for gay and bisexual people too. I would personally rather not see someone get banned for saying that is was unnatural.

Well, fair play to you for being consistent. I personally wouldn't mind to see civilised debates regarding the origins of sexual orientation and gender dysphoria. Though I can understand why the mods have the rule in place.
What annoys me, and others, is the double standards.

bodice ripper wrote: »

Do we need a "safe space" to talk like adults? Are we children or in some way compromised mentally? Do we need a school yard monitor to run to if some one tells us we are sick, that they don't agree with our views on gender or fooling ourselves en route to gay?

Here's the problem. If we allowed complete free speech on the forum, as you seem to have advocated, there would be trolls and bigots taking advantage of this on threads where a person is suicidal, depressed or anxious/ low self esteem etc. I can understand the need for free speech but at the same time I can understand the need for a safe place for people to get support and discuss these issues.

What is needed most of all is consistency in the rules pertaining to the treatment of gays and transgenders.

Azure_sky

Thaedydal wrote: »

This is not the case for a lot of young people who are growing up in the country for the last 15 years. Many came out with out a lot of fuss and to the love and acceptance of family and thier peers adjusted well. As a result they do not know what it is to be marginalized in that way and feel they have no common ground with a demographic which historically and socially linked..

There probably is great truth in this. Having said that I recall some bloated old fart, who was at least fifty, abusing me and another transsexual in the Front lounge. So it's not just the young people who are at it. I recall some very trans friendly young gay people too.

Thaedydal wrote: »

As for a 'panel' of mods, I don't think that is needed, as along as the mods are approachable and take on board the different issues, I don't think the current mods are lacking, I do think the forum and community is under going growth atm and re defining it's self after the addition of T to the forum finally. It's going to take time.

I disagree. As Johnnymcg said in an earlier post, his knowledge of transgender issues is limited. It will take time but having a transgender mod would speed up the process no end. There is probably countless trans people in the closet on boards, recent events are not going to encourage them to post. What better way to make them feel secure in the LGBT forum than a transgender moderator?

Rev Hellfire

Azure_sky wrote: »

Here's the problem. If we allowed complete free speech on the forum, as you seem to have advocated, there would be trolls and bigots taking advantage of this on threads where a person is suicidal. I can understand the need for free speech but at the same time I can understand the need for a safe place for people to get support and discuss these issues.

Rather than legislate what may or may not be said the moderators can discipline those who step across the line allowing those who wish to discuss matters in a civilized manner to do so.

Azure_sky wrote:

I disagree. As Johnnymcg said in an earlier post, his knowledge of transgender issues is limited. It will take time but having a transgender mod would speed up the process no end. There is probably countless trans people in the closet on boards, recent events are not going to encourage them to post. What better way to make them feel secure in the LGBT forum than a transgender moderator?

But the job of a moderator (at least on boards.ie) is not to act as an authority on matters but rather to ensure that discussion can take place.
Their knowledge of the subject matter is secondary to their ability to maintain the forum and act in an impartial manner when dealing with the issues which may arise.

If the work load in the LGBT forum has reached a point where an additional moderator is required the most able person should be selected. Otherwise being a moderator is simply a tick in the box exercise.

I think Thaedydal has hit the nail on the head, there as been an influx of new posters. And just as the LGBT regulars have to get used to the new sensibilities introduced they also have to get used to the forum which is more open than the private forums we see referred in numerous posts. We're at the awkward stage of having just got introduced to each other

Azure_sky

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Rather than legislate what may or may not be said the moderators can discipline those who step across the line allowing those who wish to discuss matters in a civilized manner to do so.

This would be all fine but on the charter in the lgbt forum it states.


The following subjects are not kosher for discussion:

Paedophilia, (Ep)hebophilia(except in the context of safety for homosexual youth), bible-bashing(we're well aware of the religious stance on homosexuality) , discussions on whether homosexuality is natural or unnatural or related materials.

Any such posts will be immediately deleted and posters will face banning.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50774143&postcount=3

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But the job of a moderator (at least on boards.ie) is not to act as an authority on matters but rather to ensure that discussion can take place.
Their knowledge of the subject matter is secondary to their ability to maintain the forum and act in an impartial manner when dealing with the issues which may arise..

I understand what you're saying but with transsexual issues I really think knowledge of the subject matter is just as important as having good mod qualities, as there are so many misconceptions about what it is to be transsexual. In my experiance most people don't even know the difference between gender dysphoria (transsexual) and transvestic fetishism. I'm not saying that a transgender mod would act as an authority on trans issues, but a trans mod would logically have more knowledge of trans related issues than a cis gendered person.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If the work load in the LGBT forum has reached a point where an additional moderator is required the most able person should be selected. Otherwise being a moderator is simply a tick in the box exercise.

I think it has reached that point. We wouldn't be having this discussion otherwise.:) I agree that the most able person should be selected but in this circumstance that person needs to be selected from transgender posters.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I think Thaedydal has hit the nail on the head, there as been an influx of new posters. And just as the LGBT regulars have to get used to the new sensibilities introduced they also have to get used to the forum which is more open than the private forums we see referred in numerous posts. We're at the awkward stage of having just got introduced to each other

One one level this appears to make sense but I point you to Gaire as an example of how, ultimately, this is not the case. To be fair to Gaire, I'm only citing them as they are the most well known LGBT website in Ireland. You see the exact same stuff going on in other LGBT websites, and it's been like that for a long time now.

Annasopra

bodice ripper wrote: »

I didn't see that happening. disagreeing on what makes someone female/male is a perfectly reasonable and predictable topic on and LGBT forum. And I think people are entitled to their opinions on this.

No it's not - that's just transphobia dressed up as 'debate' and 'opinion'

bodice ripper wrote: »

And that goes for gay and bisexual people too. I would personally rather not see someone get banned for saying that is was unnatural.

Well the current charter doesn't allow this.

I'm not entirely sure where you want the LGBT forum to go? Do you want it to be a place where we allow Homophobes and Transphobes to come in and constantly attack us all because we should drop some sort of perceived 'party line'?

Its worth quoting at this stage - Note that I added in Transphobia

Boston wrote: »

This forum was set up as a safe place for LGBT and LGBT friendly people to discuss LGBT issues. We can talk about the nature of homosexuality, we can talk about the moral fibre of the gay community, infact we can talk about pretty much anything (bar a few topics banned for good reason) you can think of. What isn't allowed is the promotion of homophobic and transphobic agendas which are dressed up as debate. If you want a free, liberal debate go to humanities. Why should this forum facilitate that type of debate if it's going to undermine the very founding principles of the forum?

bodice ripper

Johnnymcg wrote: »

No it's not - that's just transphobia dressed up as 'debate' and 'opinion'



Well the current charter doesn't allow this.

I'm not entirely sure where you want the LGBT forum to go? Do you want it to be a place where we allow Homophobes and Transphobes to come in and constantly attack us all because we should drop some sort of perceived 'party line'?

Its worth quoting at this stage - Note that I added in Transphobia

I think this is scaremongering. Why not just ask if we want to let the terrorists win?

look, I do understand what the charter says, I just disagree with it and you on this. Which is why I am speaking up here, rather than in the LGBT forum.

There is probably no point continuing though, as all points put forward by myself and the subsequent replies have been arguement by assertion. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong.

suffice to say I think the forum is getting scary. I amn't going to start any threads declaring my departure, but I also don't think I am thrilled to be involved either

Links234

I want to say that there are no problems with the current moderators! we do not need an extra trans moderator, and if there were shortcomings, it was because people weren't reporting blatantly offensive and bullying posts, because we didn't realise what was happening at the time!

Right now, I don't think there's any doubts that Bostons intentions were to bully people he didn't like off the forum, it's clear now that he has a problem with transgender people and is sore over the forum being renamed to include transgender, and in the thread here he opposed the inclusion of trans people with abject mockery. he's been using his signature and sending private messages with the intent of bullying johnnymcg off the forum now.

His actions were a conceited effort to bully and force people he didn't like out of the forum, but we didn't see what he was doing until it's gotten too far, and we didn't report the posts earlier. we tried to engage in discussions with him and try to tell him him that no, what he was saying wasn't acceptable and try to get him to think about what he was saying. I don't think any of us realised that it was a serious and calculated effort to bully and there was a serious agenda here! and I don't think any of us expected it from another person in the LGBT community

I'm sorry, we should have reported posts earlier and saw what was happening earlier, before it got to this.

liah

I got a PM from him too, I replied though, trying to outline as best I can what the problem is. Haven't got a reply as of yet.

Links234

liah wrote: »

I got a PM from him too, I replied though, trying to outline as best I can what the problem is. Haven't got a reply as of yet.

I think he's sending them out to everyone, I just reported it because he's gone on to harassing johnnymcg now

what the hell is wrong with some people? johnny is a nice guy and a great moderator, WHY IS HE DOING THIS???

BanzaiBk

Sad to see that Johnny will step down when a replacement is found. He was a great help to me when I posted an anon topic a while back and his moderation will be sorely missed.

L.Jenkins

Links234 wrote: »

what the hell is wrong with some people? johnny is a nice guy and a great moderator, WHY IS HE DOING THIS???

Simple, being gay doesn't exclude you from being Transphobic and Boston was no exception. Course, I'm no better by providing a lighter and petrol.

What suprises me or makes me scratch my head in confusion is how this conversation got dragged into the feedback forum, where Boston got to voice his own opinions further.

As for Johnny stepping down as mod, I would advice against it so you can think about it further. No point getting as the many out-weight the few.

bodice ripper

Links234 wrote: »

Right now, I don't think there's any doubts that Bostons intentions were to bully people he didn't like off the forum,

well, other than mine, obviously

Links234

bodice ripper wrote: »

well, other than mine, obviously

Do you really think he's not bullying people?

bodice ripper

Links234 wrote: »

Do you really think he's not bullying people people?

I think he is an abrasive jerk. I don't think he was gunning for transgender people per se, just digging his heels in in a reactionary way. not helpful, but no worse than what he has gotten from all sides tbh.

I think there are a number of people going ninety for no really good reason. Why are we banning boston but not prinz or jakkass? I don't get it myself.

L.Jenkins

bodice ripper wrote: »

I think there are a number of people going ninety for no really good reason. Why are we banning boston but not prinz or jakkass? I don't get it myself.

Sometimes certain behaviours are treated in kind and people certainly had good reason when it came to Boston. As for Jakkass, I believe he was banned.

Links234

as soon as he was stopped from derailing the trans questions thread, he went ahead and used his signature in order to attack trans people, which I think was a calculated move to cause as much hurt as he thought he could get away with. I think he was gunning for transgender people right from the start, and it's been shown he's had a history of opposing the inclusion of trans in the forum, so that really says it about what his intentions were

did prinz or jakkass come to the LGBT forum with the intention of bullying and attacking a whole bunch of people they didn't like? I've talked to both of them in other forums and I don't like them and I certainly don't their views, but I think they know that there's a line that you don't cross and you certainly don't come into the LGBT forum and brow beat and harass and bully LGBT people with your 'opinions'

bodice ripper

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Sometimes certain behaviours are treated in kind and people certainly had good reason when it came to Boston. As for Jakkass, I believe he was banned.

Well, like I said, I disagree. based on what I read, and I did go back and read as much as I could. I never saw the sig, and I may have missed an exchange.

L.Jenkins

Well his sig is back again if you want to go and have a look.

Annasopra

This is Bostons current signature

Sex

The property or quality by which organisms are
classified as female or male on the basis of
their reproductive organs and functions.

Links234

it seems the "boycott the forum until johnny is removed as mod" part was removed from his sig

Wolfe Tone

If a moderator does not feel confident to mod all aspects of the forum then there is only one step to take imo.



Personally I think a separate forum would be best. Gender identity is totally different to sexual orientation. Lumping them together because they have suffered similar marginalization/attacks in the past is not a good enough reason imo.

bodice ripper

well, while that is childish as all hell, it is neither wrong nor transphobic.

Like I said, I think he's being a jerk. People do that on the internet, unfortunately.

I don't expect to change the charter, and am fully willing to adhere to it. I won't say I think any of this is at all called for.

liah

I got this in reply:

<snip quoted PM.>

Take from that what you will.

LoLth: Infraction awarded for a PM being posted without the senders permission. The ONLY place you can do this is in the Dispute Resolution Forum and even then it can ONLY be PMs relevant to the issue being disputed. Please use the REPORT function to report any PMs you find offensive or wish to being to the admins' attention.

Wolfe Tone

liah, dunno if posting up PMs without permission is on

Links234

we do not need a seperate forum!

and we really, really do not need to fight for or justify our place within the LGBT forum!

going beyond the fact that historically we've been aligned, or the fact that many people who are trans can be also LGB, and that we all face issues of coming out, most of our issues are the same and we want the same goals, such as marriage equality. we are united by the fact that we all transgress gender norms, and sexuality is relative to gender. a man having a relationship with another man is transgressive of the norm that men are 'supposed' to pair with women. and a lot of homophobia is based on less about who a person sleeps with, but a person's expression of themselves, like feminine gay men or butch lesbian women are attacked because of how they're appearing as different to what men and women are 'supposed' to look like. a lot of homophobia is the same as transphobia in this way, both are reactions to breaking of established gender boundaries.

we fight for inclusion in the LGBT community just as much as we fight for inclusion in mainstream society too.

what we NEED, is to stop this bullying!

Nevyn

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If a moderator does not feel confident to mod all aspects of the forum then there is only one step to take imo.

What claptrap, stuff comes up all the times on forums I mod which I don't know enough or anything about and you ask for help and you learn.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I think a separate forum would be best. Gender identity is totally different to sexual orientation. Lumping them together because they have suffered similar marginalization/attacks in the past is not a good enough reason imo.

That horse is well bolted and the T is there on the forum to stay.

Nevyn

Pm and sigs can be reported and the admins can deal with them.
I hope that none of the mods step down over this.
I also got a pm and I think people need to let go and stop expecting the forum and site to be what it was 5 years ago.

Links234

liah wrote: »

I got this in reply:



Take from that what you will.

I'd report the message to the admins, I think it's 100% crystal clear by now that he was very calculated in what he was doing and had a very malicious agenda.

Wolfe Tone

Fair enough on the mod issue.

---

I think he is forcing an issue which would have come up down the road anyways.

Links234

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I think he is forcing an issue which would have come up down the road anyways.

there is absolutely NO excuse for his actions, he was absolutely bullying and attacking people and trying to cause as much upset and division as possible, nothing excuses that.

if he had any concerns for the forum that there might be problems he could have brought them up in a mature way, talked about what issues might arise in future and find a way of dealing with things should they arise. but he didn't, so I don't believe for a second that he acted out of concern for the forum. in fact, it's straight out of derailing for dummies it's not funny! see the bit about playing "devil's advocate"

and it's pretty clear from what's been brought up that he had a problem with transgender people and clearly didn't want trans being added to the forum, so I think his motivations are very obvious.

I'm not going to bother replying again, I've got nothing to say to anyone who wants to defend or excuse his actions, he was being a bully and wanted to shove people off the forum, nothing more. it's inexcusable.