Goodbye (LGBT forum feedback)

Wolfe Tone

Im not defending him links. I think this would have come up eventually.

Azure_sky

Johnnymcg wrote: »

This is Bostons current signature

So Bostons been banned, eh? Sad to see Johnny was subjected to so much abuse in this debacle. As he is a nice guy and as a mod he is exemplary.

Well, I would like if the forum was not split. I hope the charter is changed so that trans people enjoy the same protection as gays enjoy-and this sort of thing never happens again.

Stark

Links234 wrote: »

we do not need a seperate forum!

and we really, really do not need to fight for or justify our place within the LGBT forum!

going beyond the fact that historically we've been aligned, or the fact that many people who are trans can be also LGB, and that we all face issues of coming out, most of our issues are the same and we want the same goals, such as marriage equality. we are united by the fact that we all transgress gender norms, and sexuality is relative to gender. a man having a relationship with another man is transgressive of the norm that men are 'supposed' to pair with women. and a lot of homophobia is based on less about who a person sleeps with, but a person's expression of themselves, like feminine gay men or butch lesbian women are attacked because of how they're appearing as different to what men and women are 'supposed' to look like. a lot of homophobia is the same as transphobia in this way, both are reactions to breaking of established gender boundaries.

That's all well and good but from what I can tell, the Gs and the Ts are at each other's throats at the moment. You could lump all minorities into one forum on the basis that they all face discrimination but you can't force them to want anything to do with each other. Boston was hands down the best poster when it came to advice on LGB issues but you can't expect him to intrinsically empathise with the trans point of view just because "ah sure they both have something to do with gender in a way".

We've had this debate before. It went round in circles back then but back then no one could say for certain which way things would go. Now we know.

donfers

what a lot of drama queens!

seven pages in and I still have no idea what all the fuss is about

Azure_sky

Stark wrote: »

. Boston was hands down the best poster when it came to advice on LGB issues but you can't expect him to intrinsically empathise with the trans point of view just because "ah sure they both have something to do with gender in a way".

Talk about simplifying the issue....When someone is presented with scientific evidence that shows there is as much evidence for a biological aspect to gender dysphoria as there is to homosexuality you would expect that person listen. But no-Boston thought he knew more than a professional neurologist on this issue.:rolleyes:
Can't empathise you say? It takes no knowledge of gender dysphoria for a gay person to empathise with a marginalised group who's condition is ridiculed by people even when presented with scientific evidence. Lets not forget it was not too long ago when homosexuality was listed as a mental illness. Alan Turing anyone?

donfers wrote: »

what a lot of drama queens!

Well it is the LGBT forum.:pac:



(I hope people interpret this as benign joke.)

Rev Hellfire

Azure_sky wrote: »

Talk about simplifying the issue....When someone is presented with scientific evidence that shows there is as much evidence for a biological aspect to gender dysphoria as there is to homosexuality you would expect that person listen. But no-Boston thought he knew more than a professional neurologist on this issue.:rolleyes:

People evaluate the evidence they have and the evidence they are given, that Boston doesn't happen to agree with the interpretation others have of that evidence is not a bannable offence.
Its worth noting that at no time did Boston ever imply that trans-individuals where ever anything other than the gender they identified with (as far as I am aware of). There's an element of witch-hunt here against him as well imv.

Azure_sky

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

People evaluate the evidence they have and the evidence they are given, that Boston doesn't happen to agree with the interpretation others have of that evidence is not a bannable offence.
Its worth noting that at no time did Boston ever imply that trans-individuals where ever anything other than the gender they identified with (as far as I am aware of). There's an element of witch-hunt here against him as well imv.

Ah come on now, lets get real. Here's Bostons signature:

Sex

The property or quality by which organisms are
classified as female or male on the basis of
their reproductive organs and functions.

Now if that's not intended to flame transsexuals or to attack the validity of gender dysphoria then what is? Also, what would be the equivalent of the homophobic version of this signature?

Natural Sexual orientation and marriage

The natural and default sexual orientation process where individuals of the opposiate sex are attracted to each and engage in a life long commitment to each other for the primary purpose of procreation.
Queering does not make the world work. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.


Now, if I or any other transgender person started making posts on gay threads advocating repairitive therapy and claiming homosexuality has no biological basis,(and used that signature) and thus implying it is a mental illness and creating a signature asking folk to boycott the forum until a mod is gone, there would be war and I would be driven off the forum-and understandably so.

Boston fought tooth and nail to keep the T out of the forum. When he lost he did his very best to cause chaos and division, which he has been sucessful, he trolled an entire section of the forum and flammed a good moderator.

Now if anyone can't understand where the anger and indignation is coming from then they are clearly in denial or engaging in favouritism. How people can defend this guy is beyond me, it would be comical were it not so sad.

Rev Hellfire

Azure_sky wrote: »

Ah come on now, lets get real. Here's Bostons signature:

I totally agree there's no defending his signature, which is purely there to create conflict.
But it was in my view preceded by people rounding on him as "transphobic" and in his opinion being effectively told his views are not welcome on the subject and now subject to censor. He's simply playing the part now.

But none of this is really relevant in the feedback thread so I'll park it there.

Azure_sky

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I totally agree there's no defending his signature, which is purely there to create conflict.
But it was in my view preceded by people rounding on him as "transphobic" and in his opinion being effectively told his views are not welcome on the subject and now subject to censor. He's simply playing the part now.

But none of this is really relevant in the feedback thread so I'll park it there.

I think it's pretty obvious that Boston never wanted the T in the forum and as time progressed his transphobia became more transparent. As for his opinions not being welcome and now being subject to censor, well the charter says that opinions on the origins of homosexuality are not welcome and are subject to censor. The transgender members just wanted to be treated with equal respect, privilege and have the same protection as the gays enjoy. Also by making his transphobic signature he just validated the opinions of the people who accused him of being transphobic. He lost his cool, and revealed his latent transphobic mentality in all it's ugliness.

Aard

I challenge anybody to quote the posts that show transphobia. There is a difference between being transphobic (or indeed homophobic) and being stubborn, short, or even rude. Rudeness = the manner of delivery; bigotry = the content.


======



You know what, at the end of the day people will be people. Scientists, history, status quo, the man on the street: they may all lump L, G, B and T into one mix. But at this stage, that's academic. This thread, the LGBT forum, the posters have all proved that it's not so easy. A lot of people can't/don't differentiate between gender and sex. That doesn't make it right, but that's what it is. Even gay people will make such mistakes. There's no point getting upset with a gay person who makes that mistake, as though he or she should have known better. Gay people are just as clueless as the rest of the general population. Which brings me back to the fact that, de facto, there IS no LGBT forum. It's just a mass of two (perhaps subtly) themed types of threads, where the support that the different groups can give each other is limited.

It's clear that some people want a debate, and some people want support. Perhaps the answer to the whole problem is actually simple, though somewhat crude: have each thread tagged with "debate" or "support". It gets around the awkward problem of having two forums, it keeps exposure the same for the Trans threads, it makes moderating clear-cut, it leaves no doubt as to how to approach a certain thread, and while not perfect in the slightest it seems to be the most win-win solution put forward. Burying heads in sand, and sitting on hands won't help anybody. We need a solution.

Azure_sky

Aard wrote: »

I challenge anybody to quote the posts that show transphobia. There is a difference between being transphobic (or indeed homophobic) and being stubborn, short, or even rude. Rudeness = the manner of delivery; bigotry = the content.

I have not gone through all the threads Links and Deirdre (etc) posted, I was pissed off enough with the summary and didn't want to depress and anger myself further, but it depends how you define transphobia. Boston claimed that there is no neurological basis for gender dysphoria, despite scientific evidence to the contary. Without the neurological basis then what can predicate gender dysphoria except a disturbed mind?

Now if a transgender poster claimed there is no neurological basis to homo/bi sexuality it implies the same thing; that homo/bi sexuals are mentally sick.

I have a feeling such a hypothetical transgender poster would be accused of homophobia by quite a few people. I mean it is against the forum charter to begin with.

Aard wrote: »

A lot of people can't/don't differentiate between gender and sex. That doesn't make it right, but that's what it is. Even gay people will make such mistakes. There's no point getting upset with a gay person who makes that mistake, as though he or she should have known better. Gay people are just as clueless as the rest of the general population.

I completely agree that people do make honest mistakes, and that does not make them transphobic, but- it does not take Sigmund Freud to differentiate between these people and the poster in question-merely a little intuition.

Aard

Azure sky, the reason I said to "quote" the posts is that I'd like to know exactly what was said that people found offensive. You yourself have just said that you only read the summary.

Azure_sky

Aard wrote: »

Azure sky, the reason I said to "quote" the posts is that I'd like to know exactly what was said that people found offensive. You yourself have just said that you only read the summary.

The summary itself was more than enough for me to stomach, I already explained why I did not rummage through the various threads. No one can deny Bostons position on gender dysphoria being a mental illness rather than a neurological condition. I gave a very detailed explanation as to how this is the case and how it is offensive. There's no point in spoon feeding if someone is throwing up. All it takes is a little intuition and objective thinking to see through the crap. Funny how everyone who supports Boston ignores my valid points and rebuttals.

Anyway, it seems some folk are determined to defend Boston until the bitter end through sophistry and semantics. I'm finding this debate frustrating and pointless so I think I'll join Links and Deirdre in taking a break until the double standards and hypocrisy of the LGBT forum is officially addressed through a change in the charter.

Links234

Stark wrote: »

That's all well and good but from what I can tell, the Gs and the Ts are at each other's throats at the moment.

I don't think that's true at all!

A lot of us (and it's not just the T) are extremely upset at Boston's actions, but he was not only intent on bullying transgender people off the forum, but also gay people who supported trans people as well! he went after Johnnymcg and attempted to bully him out of moderating the forum, sent out mass private messages calling for people to boycott the forum until johnny stepped down as mod.

curlzy

Hey,

I was just having a wander around the site and found this thread and have to say guys, it's utterly sad and depressing and disheartening. Like how can such bullying be occuring amongst people that understand what it's like to be bullied??? How can you tell a woman that she's not a woman coz she wasn't born that way etc. It just makes me so sad. It's like ..... it's really hard to think of a simile but I'm trying .... it's like: black people slagging off yellow people, both know what it's like to have to fight desparately to get respect and be treated equally but then they go and bash each other?!?!?!?! Why in the name of god would a GL or B person belittle a trans person? They know what it's like to be made to feel like they've done something bad or wrong when all they've done is be themselves. I'm sorry if I'm saying this all wrong but I don't know how else to say it. Should the GLBT forum not be there to support each other? Why would you tear each other down??? I'm hetero so I really don't know much about the issues other than what I've learned from friends and those around me but from what I've seen and heard, to be trans you have to be very very strong and you have to be determined and when you get knocked down for the millionth time you have to get back up and keep going. Honestly it's just the nastiest part of humanity that's displayed in issues like this. I don't know how you fix this problem but I would urge you all to look to actual trans people for their opinions, you can't know, well none of us can, what it's like to told that the person you know you are, isn't real, it's one of worst things I can imagine going through. It just makes me so sad to see a refuge turned into a whipping post. I urge you all to have compassion with each other and be supportive of each other. I mean personally I don't see the point in questioning someone's sex or gender, whatever they say they are, that's what they are. Sorry for the long post that's probably un-PC but I just didn't know how else to put it. I also apologise if I completely misunderstanding what's going on here.

I hope it all works out ok and that GLBT forum becomes a place for support and brother/sisterhood.

Best of luck.

liah

curlzy wrote: »

Hey,

I was just having a wander around the site and found this thread and have to say guys, it's utterly sad and depressing and disheartening. Like how can such bullying be occuring amongst people that understand what it's like to be bullied??? How can you tell a woman that she's not a woman coz she wasn't born that way etc. It just makes me so sad. It's like ..... it's really hard to think of a simile but I'm trying .... it's like: black people slagging off yellow people, both know what it's like to have to fight desparately to get respect and be treated equally but then they go and bash each other?!?!?!?! Why in the name of god would a GL or B person belittle a trans person? They know what it's like to be made to feel like they've done something bad or wrong when all they've done is be themselves. I'm sorry if I'm saying this all wrong but I don't know how else to say it. Should the GLBT forum not be there to support each other? Why would you tear each other down??? I'm hetero so I really don't know much about the issues other than what I've learned from friends and those around me but from what I've seen and heard, to be trans you have to be very very strong and you have to be determined and when you get knocked down for the millionth time you have to get back up and keep going. Honestly it's just the nastiest part of humanity that's displayed in issues like this. I don't know how you fix this problem but I would urge you all to look to actual trans people for their opinions, you can't know, well none of us can, what it's like to told that the person you know you are, isn't real, it's one of worst things I can imagine going through. It just makes me so sad to see a refuge turned into a whipping post. I urge you all to have compassion with each other and be supportive of each other. I mean personally I don't see the point in questioning someone's sex or gender, whatever they say they are, that's what they are. Sorry for the long post that's probably un-PC but I just didn't know how else to put it. I also apologise if I completely misunderstanding what's going on here.

I hope it all works out ok and that GLBT forum becomes a place for support and brother/sisterhood.

Best of luck.

This is 100% my thinking. I'm not G, L, or T-- I'm bi-curious-- and from an "outsider's" perspective, this whole thing is nuts.

How can they treat each other like that, or what's perhaps worse: how can they not realize that what they're saying can be damaging to someone?

It makes no sense at all. It's divisiveness for the sake of it and it's pretty damn hypocritical if you take everything into account.

Links234

Aard wrote: »

I challenge anybody to quote the posts that show transphobia. There is a difference between being transphobic (or indeed homophobic) and being stubborn, short, or even rude. Rudeness = the manner of delivery; bigotry = the content.

I think you are missing one thing here, and that's intent. It's pretty clear what Boston's intentions were, he's admitted he wanted to "light a match" and admitted that he's got an agenda, it's not the manner of delivery that's transphobic here, it's the intent.

I've already gone back reported some posts boston that I felt were transphobic and if I have the time, I'll quote some posts here and explain why they were problematic and offensive. But lets not kid ourselves, the intent was what was malicious here, he's at least been up front about that now

rainbow kirby

If anyone has received antagonising PMs relating to this situation, please report them.

Hank Scorpio

boston making more friends i see

Azure_sky

Well he is at it again with his new signature. This time he is having a personal shot at me.( He left out the part where I said something akin to "because transgenders have to deal with homo/bi phobia as well as transphobia-double the prejeudice etc, but being bi sexual is certainly not a piece of cake either".)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69786873&postcount=61


I urge every one with a sense of fairness and conscience to report his signature again, and this time perhaps the admins will take harsher actions against this sort of behaviour.
chromosomal sex , genetic sex, is sex as determined by
the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype
in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.

Azure_sky "Being bisexual is certainly not as big an issue as being trans"

curlzy

Azure_sky wrote: »

Well he is at it again with his new signature. This time he is having a personal shot at me.( He left out the part where I said something akin to "because transgenders have to deal with homo/bi phobia as well as transphobia-double the prejeudice etc, but being bi sexual is certainly not a piece of cake either".)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69786873&postcount=61


I urge every one with a sense of fairness and conscience to report his signature again, and this time perhaps the admins will take harsher actions against this sort of behaviour.
chromosomal sex , genetic sex, is sex as determined by
the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype
in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.

Azure_sky "Being bisexual is certainly not as big an issue as being trans"

You know what's interesting? It's that if you had posted your original post under your real name and were identifiable, as in this site had mentioned something like you're the shop kepeer in a certain shop you would able to sue for defamation? He only changed a small but very crucial part of your post.

source:media degree.

L.Jenkins

I think we should take this one back to the lgbt forum and discuss the charter like adults, but heavily modded this time and from scratch like we all have a level playing field. As it has been mentioned, I would also suggest a trans mod aswell. I have two in mind, Links and deirdra_dub, two people to me that seem most knowledgeable.

Azure_sky

Seconded, it's a heated debate but it's time for everyone to take a time out. Links would make an excellent mod. I'm too feisty for my own good.:D

Links234

I do not want to be a moderator

and if boston's actions are allowed to continue, there will just be more bullying to make it hell for any new moderator.

L.Jenkins

And I thought you'd be a good mod. Any mod will have to take shít from people like Boston. I'd have no problem with it, but I'd prefer someone who's alittle more knowledgeable and not likely to go batty with the mod status.

Rev Hellfire

Links234 wrote: »

I do not want to be a moderator.

Clearly you haven't been informed of the wondrous rewards we receive for our service !

Azure_sky

I'd like to think that I have a fair sense of justice, fair play and a reasonable knowledge regarding transgender issues but I'm not sure I want that responsibility to be honest.( Unless there's perks to be had:pac:) Maybe Deirdre would be up for it. I do think a trans mod, along with a change in the charter, is necessary to be frank.

Links234

I still think we don't need a transgender moderator, and that a lot of the fault lied with the fact that we didn't report any posts. any further issues I think that we are going to be a little more vigilant about that, and help the moderators out.

there doesn't need to be anyone extra

Azure_sky

I'll respectfully disagree with you on whether a trans mod is not necessary or not.:)
I've seen other LGBT forums where there was not a trans mod and this sort of thing is like the cycles of nature. Don't get me wrong Johnny is an excellent mod. I have the utmost respect for him, but even he said that a trans mod might be a good idea.

As I said before, there's probably hundreds of trans people in the closet on boards, and we're about thirty years behind gays in terms of rights and social acceptance. A transgender mod would, imho, give confidence to people with various degrees of gender dysphoria to express their issues. This whole sorry incident has done quite the opposiate. Trans mod or not, I think the main objective is an alteration of the forum charter.

Aard

A trans mod is not a panacea. The idea behind having several mods is to make it more likely that one will be on at a given time, not to represent particular interests.