Goodbye (LGBT forum feedback)

Azure_sky

Aard wrote: »

A trans mod is not a panacea. The idea behind having several mods is to make it more likely that one will be on at a given time, not to represent particular interests.

Over simplification. No one said it's a panacea. If not having mods based on representing particlular interests then why not have a Christian moderating the athiest forum and vice versa?

Aard

Because the one is diametrically opposed to the other. I don't believe you thinks the same is true of homosexuals and transgendered people. If so, the idea of separate forums would be on the agenda.

Rev Hellfire

Azure_sky wrote: »

Over simplification. No one said it's a panacea. If not having mods based on representing particlular interests then why not have a Christian moderating the athiest forum and vice versa?

If moderators are chosen purely on them having a particular vested interest it hardly strengthens the idea that they should be impartial.

As to the idea of an atheist moderating the Christianity forum that is already the case with nesf & Scofflaw (agnostic I think) and it hasn't presented any issues. Hobbes also is not a Muslim and does an excellent job. There are numerous other examples on the forums. Its also worth noting that both the atheist & agnostic forum and the Christianity forum see a large number of cross posting from both sides which can occur without incident. Proof that discussion can occur between groups diametrically to each other when conducted in a civilized manner by adults.

The expertises in a forum doesn't come from the moderators but from the active participation of the users. If an offensive post/issue has arisen its your responsibility to assist in the running of the forum by using the report button.

smashey

Links234 wrote: »

Do you not see how bullying and attacking an entire demographic of people in what is supposed to be a safe space for all LGBT people is a big deal?

Well said. As admins, we have a responsibility for the site as a whole as well as any specific group of people on the site and I'm including mods as a group here.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If a moderator does not feel confident to mod all aspects of the forum then there is only one step to take imo.

Thaed answered this perfectly here.

Thaedydal wrote: »

What claptrap, stuff comes up all the times on forums I mod which I don't know enough or anything about and you ask for help and you learn.

I've been in that position myself where I was unsure of how to deal with a particular issue. I spoke to my fellow mods at the time and we got it sorted.

Now, we are looking at this issue today and something will be done. Whether that appeases everybody, only time will tell but we have a lot of stuff to look at including reported PMs and a few separate related threads elsewhere.

LoLth

Just to add a +1 to Smashey's post.

I've usually modded forums where I know at least a bit about they topics to be covered but even then, I'm not an expert on everything I've modded so issues have arisen that are completely beyond my ability to have an informed opinion on. When these situations arise I have never had a problem modding the discussion. An interest in the forum being moderated is essential to ensure that the mods and the users have common ground and it makes the forum more pleasant for the users but I, personally, dont see why a mod of the Christianity forum *has* to be Christian. As long as the moderator isnt dead set against Christianity or Christians, any decent mod could moderate the forum, just not as effectively as one with an interest in the subject matter (my opinion, not an admin view in general). Similarly, I do not believe that the LGBT forum *has* to have a Trans mod to keep the peace and make the forum feel "safe". If a new mod added happened to be Trans then thats a bonus but to make someone a mod just because their sexuality happens to match the forum would be wrong imho. Ultimately the mods, catmods and admins will have to make a decision on who would be best for the forum and while all factors would be taken into account, just like the real world, I dont think we should discriminate in any way or we run the risk of creating a perception of "filling a quota" with token mods instead of appointing mods who have our trust and who we feel would be the best choice for the forum.

regarding the future of the LGBT forum, may I suggest that we start a seperate thread, either here in feedback or on the LGBT forum itself where the way forward can be discussed seperate to the recent events? Only for the purposes of having a discussion with more focus and less of a tendancy to have two or three simultaneous discussions runnign alongside one another?

Azure_sky

A lot of posts to get through.

Aard wrote: »

Because the one is diametrically opposed to the other. I don't believe you thinks the same is true of homosexuals and transgendered people. If so, the idea of separate forums would be on the agenda.

I don't think it's a black and white issue, there's a lot of grey. I'm sure you know the reasons for the political allignment of transgenders and gays. Most trans people's sexuality is in someway going to be regarded as "queer", and gays and trans are often targeted for abuse for the same reasons.

At the same time, sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things. In fact homosexuality is based upon gratifying the genetalia while many transgenders want to go as far as altering their genetalia.

I'd rather not have a seperate forum personally, but at the end of the day we can't force gays to accept us and I'd rather have a dedicated transgender forum than a forum where transgenders are made feel like unwelcome guests and are treated like second class members.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If moderators are chosen purely on them having a particular vested interest it hardly strengthens the idea that they should be impartial.



As to the idea of an atheist moderating the Christianity forum that is already the case with nesf & Scofflaw (agnostic I think) and it hasn't presented any issues. Hobbes also is not a Muslim and does an excellent job. There are numerous other examples on the forums. Its also worth noting that both the atheist & agnostic forum and the Christianity forum see a large number of cross posting from both sides which can occur without incident. Proof that discussion can occur between groups diametrically to each other when conducted in a civilized manner by adults.

I think there is a major difference between vested interests and particular interests. The former implies favouritism, the latter implies specialised knowledge. Fair enough on the examples you cited, although agnosticism is not as diametrically opposed as atheism is to Christianity. Not sure if it's true that there's never any incidents regarding atheism vs Christianity either. ;)However, every case is unique. We all know what a Christian, a Muslim and an atheist is, as well as what offends them-common knowledge. Not so with transgenders though. There are so many misconception about what a transgender is and what is and is not offensive to them, we would not be having this massive debate otherwise.

Darragh

I'd rather have a dedicated transgender forum than a forum where transgenders are made feel like unwelcome guests and are treated like second class members.

Can I ask what you think a transgender forum would be? Would it be for people's stories, experiences, questions and concerns? As in a support resource for people who have been through the experience and those considering it?

Or is it something else? Is the LGBT forum that kind of place? I'm asking because I both don't know and am genuinely interested in what you think should happen

Azure_sky

Darragh wrote: »

Can I ask what you think a transgender forum would be? Would it be for people's stories, experiences, questions and concerns? As in a support resource for people who have been through the experience and those considering it?

Or is it something else? Is the LGBT forum that kind of place? I'm asking because I both don't know and am genuinely interested in what you think should happen

Thanks for taking an interest Darragh:)

I can only speak for myself, other transgender will likely disagree on some of my points and some may even say a dedicated transgender forum is a no-no.

It would pretty much be what you cited: Resources, information, links, support, trans related news and discussions, and a sense of community and solidarity. Is the LGBT forum that place? Currently, it's not for transgenders, imho. The forum charter where it states that debating the origins of homo/bi sexuality may result in banning but it being o.k. to claim gender dysphoria has no biological component, and is thus the product of a disturbed mind is a major issue, and the cause of this debate and fallout.

Still, this loophole wouldn't have been an issue if it were not for some peoples attitudes, primarily one former member. A lot of people seem to be defending him so it is possible that he is not alone in this attitude.

Having said that, there are some really supportive gay/bi people on the forum who have been very supportive to transgenders, Johnny for example. The gays who have not been like this are in the minority, albeit a sizable minority. The question is whether these people alone make the LGBT forum unworkable and thus a need for a dedicated transgender forum. I think that one is up for debate and I myself will suspend judgement.


I think if there is not going to be a dedicated transgender forum then two things need to happen in order to make the LGBT forum workable. Firstly the charter needs to be changed so that transgenders enjoy the same protection as gays and bi sexuals-I can't stress the need for this enough.:)

Secondly I really believe a transgender moderator would help no end. Like I said before there's probably hundreds of people on boards with some varying degree of gender issues and the recent developements have not helped create confidence. Imagine if someone who created a thread saying: " I think I might be gay" etc, and some guys said "Oh it's just a mental illness, force yourself to be straight."

A transgender moderator would be a progessive step for transgenders imo.

Annasopra

Darragh wrote: »

Can I ask what you think a transgender forum would be? Would it be for people's stories, experiences, questions and concerns? As in a support resource for people who have been through the experience and those considering it?

well currently the forum is all of those for transgender people - a support space for those who are trans or confused and think they might be trans. Its also a bit of a social space for people to talk to each other.

It is also in some senses a place where non trans people can come in and ask questions because they might be just curious or just want to know more. A lot of non trans people were asking questions in various threads. I was asked in a thread I created asking for feedback on the forum to create a dedicated trans questions thread and I did this. I think that has been helpful because most people went in there with respectful questions.

I think the key thing is that it should be a safe space where posters don't have to constantly fight to defend their trans identity or where debate dressed up as transphobia is unwelcome.

Should there be a separate Trans forum? My sense is that most of the trans posters don't want one but feel that it might be necessary if they can't be guaranteed a safe space

I think the LGB posters have mixed views. My sense is that a lot think its fine together but some obviously don't. When we were discussing a forum name change there was opposition voiced from roughly 3-4 posters but most seemed in favour. Although there were polls showing a few more against.

Trans issues have always been discussed on the forum anyway (as long as I can remember). The name change just bought more trans posters in.

Aard

Azure_sky wrote: »

I don't think it's a black and white issue, there's a lot of grey. I'm sure you know the reasons for the political allignment of transgenders and gays. Most trans people's sexuality is in someway going to be regarded as "queer", and gays and trans are often targeted for abuse for the same reasons.

At the same time, sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things. In fact homosexuality is based upon gratifying the genetalia while many transgenders want to go as far as altering their genetalia.

I'd rather not have a seperate forum personally, but at the end of the day we can't force gays to accept us and I'd rather have a dedicated transgender forum than a forum where transgenders are made feel like unwelcome guests and are treated like second class members.

My comment, to which this is a reply, was purely about saying that comparing gays to trans*s is nothing like comparing Christians to atheists. Nothing more, nothing less.

Azure_sky

It implied more.

Aard wrote: »

Because the one is diametrically opposed to the other. I don't believe you thinks the same is true of homosexuals and transgendered people. If so, the idea of separate forums would be on the agenda.

Aard

There were no implications on my part, only inferences on yours. I meant exactly and only what I wrote.

At any rate, meta-arguing is completely pointless.


=======


There have been precious few ideas on how to solve all this, for all the hullabaloo that was kicked up. I outlined mine above. The others seem to be:

1) Add a trans moderator;
2) Update the charter.

The former is controversial.

I haven't seen anything against the second, and I don't think many or any will argue with it. My thoughts on only changing the charter is that it's a bit wishy-washy, and I wonder if it will actually change much. Charters are all well and good, as long as people read them. Anecdotal experience tells me that many do not read them, and that they're mostly there for consultation after an offence has occurred. Enforceability is an issue: if it's not blatantly obvious, people will circumvent it.

Is anybody actually interested in fixing this, or just hoping that somebody else will? If you have a solution, other than the above, please share it. Even if it is mildly ridiculous, it might get the collective cogs turning for a better one.

Annasopra

Aard wrote: »

It's clear that some people want a debate, and some people want support. Perhaps the answer to the whole problem is actually simple, though somewhat crude: have each thread tagged with "debate" or "support". It gets around the awkward problem of having two forums, it keeps exposure the same for the Trans threads, it makes moderating clear-cut, it leaves no doubt as to how to approach a certain thread, and while not perfect in the slightest it seems to be the most win-win solution put forward. Burying heads in sand, and sitting on hands won't help anybody. We need a solution.

I quite like this idea and I think Aard is being really helpful and constructive here.

I'm not sure if all of the threads can be categorised into 2 categories and the word debate for me seems a bit like you are automatically setting up something to argue over - also if you are having 'debates' it really does have to be clear that transphobia and homophobia dressed up as debate are unwelcome

What about "discussion",
"support" and "social"

Links234

Boston's current signature includes the following linked text:

Gender identity disorder (Mental illness F64)

This is yet another attack on transgender people, with the words "Mental Illness" obviously meant to cause further aggrivation.

The irony is that the World Health Orginization's ICD-9 (1977) listed homosexuality as a mental illness, only to be removed in the ICD-10 (1990), which is the version of the ICD that is being linked to by Boston.

Aard

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I quite like this idea and I think Aard is being really helpful and constructive here.

I'm not sure if all of the threads can be categorised into 2 categories and the word debate for me seems a bit like you are automatically setting up something to argue over - also if you are having 'debates' it really does have to be clear that transphobia and homophobia dressed up as debate are unwelcome

What about "discussion",
"support" and "social"

Thanks Jmcg. Like I said above, though my proposal was rough, at least it's getting people thinking of a solution.


"Discussion" does indeed have a nicer ring to it. Perhaps instead of "support", "advice" would be better too. "Support" could be construed as being equally loaded.


You're of course right that not all threads can be conveniently categorised. Maybe have such tags as optional, so that people know that they might get offended by reading a "discussion" thread, but OTOH they know that they're not gonna get any shit by posting an "advice" thread, while other threads would be subject to current forum rules.

Azure_sky

Links234 wrote: »

Boston's current signature includes the following linked text:



This is yet another attack on transgender people, with the words "Mental Illness" obviously meant to cause further aggrivation.

The irony is that the World Health Orginization's ICD-9 (1977) listed homosexuality as a mental illness, only to be removed in the ICD-10 (1990), which is the version of the ICD that is being linked to by Boston.

And GID has been recently delisted as a mental illness in France. Jesus, that guy is so childish. If he keeps this trolling up he should be banned from the entire forum IMO. Anyway, I'll report his new signature. Thanks for keeping us up todate with Bostons trolling spree. He is attacking me again by quoting me out of context.

Rev Hellfire

Aard wrote: »

"Discussion" does indeed have a nicer ring to it. Perhaps instead of "support", "advice" would be better too. "Support" could be construed as being equally loaded.

Would it not be better to create a support/advise sub-forum which is more restricted in its nature? Perhaps even going as far as requiring pre-approval ?
It would keep all camps happy, those who wish discussion to occur can use the main forum while those looking for advise will have an more heavily moderated forum in which their concerns will be addressed without interruption.

More work for the moderators, but I'm happy to volunteer you all for the extra work load

Rev Hellfire

Azure_sky wrote: »

Thanks for keeping us up todate with Bostons trolling spree.

Oxygen to a flame...

Azure_sky

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Oxygen to a flame...

Sorry-Signature creating spree and misquoting me which happens to offend transsexuals and personally attacks my character then.:pac:

(Tongue firmly held in cheek.):P

Point taken however.

Aard

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Would it not be better to create a support/advise sub-forum which is more restricted in its nature? Perhaps even going as far as requiring pre-approval ?

A lot of the advice threads are posted anonymously, so I'm not sure pre-approval would work.

I believe that the primary purpose of the forum is to ask/give advice, so "buring" it in a subforum might diminish that aspect.

Annasopra

Yep again I agree with Aard

At the moment a lot of the current threads are seeking advice so I think burying those in a subforum could have the unintended effect of killing off the main forum

Azure_sky

Aard wrote: »

There have been precious few ideas on how to solve all this, for all the hullabaloo that was kicked up. I outlined mine above. The others seem to be:

1) Add a trans moderator;
2) Update the charter.

The former is controversial.

I haven't seen anything against the second, and I don't think many or any will argue with it. My thoughts on only changing the charter is that it's a bit wishy-washy, and I wonder if it will actually change much. Charters are all well and good, as long as people read them. Anecdotal experience tells me that many do not read them, and that they're mostly there for consultation after an offence has occurred. Enforceability is an issue: if it's not blatantly obvious, people will circumvent it.

Is anybody actually interested in fixing this, or just hoping that somebody else will? If you have a solution, other than the above, please share it. Even if it is mildly ridiculous, it might get the collective cogs turning for a better one.

Thanks for giving some food for thought Aard. True, people often don't read the charter, to be honest I didn't until all the drama occured.:D
The only thing I can think of is having the most important rules in bold and maybe in larger fonts but that would require people to look at the charter to begin with, so that's not much of a solution.

As for circumventing and enforcing the rules, well I think the mods do a good job of enforcing them as is realistically possible and use their intuition to know when someone is trying to circumvent the rules, find loopholes and cause offense.

I'm still keen on the idea of an update for the forum charter and a trans mod or as a last resort a dedicated transgender forum. There were alot of people who voted against the T, and like I said we can't force these people to accept us, so maybe that would be the best solution for everyone. It would be sad if it came to that though.

bonkey

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I'm not sure if all of the threads can be categorised into 2 categories

AFAIR, categories can be set up to be mandatory or optional....which would leave "neither category" as an option.

Azure_sky

Maybe we should start a poll thread.

A: Forum charter update
B: Forum charter update and transgender mod
C: Dedicated transgender forum

etc.

Aard

Polls are only good when choices have been established. We're still in the ideas stage.

Azure_sky

That's what I meant, which is why I put in the etc for future possibilities.

Links234

Am I alone in thinking that we don't need a new forum, tagging system, or don't need to otherwise completely re-arrange things, on the account of this?

please let us not kid ourself about what this is about, Boston has admitted he was deliberate in his actions, we know he was openly trying to bully Johnnymcg into resigning, and we know that he was against including transgender in the forum. I think there's been a lot of interesting things said in this thread about why this happened, and that the LGBT forum has seen a lot of new posters since transgender was included, Thaedydal said that this is a community under growth and that's true, we've got a lot of new posters, and a lot of new transgender posters in particular.

on top of that, the LGBT forum has new moderators this year, right? so johnnymcg and rainbow kirby are new blood to the forum too relatively speaking

Boston also hadn't been posting any more at all until recently enough, and his signature said in red lettering something like "account closed, please do not contact" so it seemed like he didn't really want to be active here any more. I think someone said something on this thread, that boston should accept the site isn't going to be the same as it was 5 years ago?

I think that's a picture of why this has happened, that a much older user didn't want change, and is lashing out at the new posters and the new moderators, because the forum isn't the same as it was before, and attempted to bully out the new people. someone also said that it was like someone trying to claim territory, and that might be true. if we had different tags for threads, would that have stopped this from happening? I don't think it would, we've got a much clearer picture of what's happened now, and it's more than ever a clear intention to bully out the newer community members.


I will say that before this happened, the LGBT forum was a very good community, I think I've made friends there that I wouldn't have otherwise, some people on there are just fantastic and helpful, who've great support and advice. it's one of the very few communities that Irish trans people have, and that Irish trans people can not only offer advice but also create a good sense of community. I'm a member of other transgender messageboards, but it simply isn't the same, because it often lacks people with a keen knowledge of the Irish health system, like we do here, or it doesn't have that same sense of community that had been established here, with other people who know what it's like to be transgender in Ireland.

I think the only change we need is to be vigilant against this type of bullying if it ever pops up again, and put something into the charter that covers transgender posters.


if the admins don't understand why the things boston said were so offensive and out of line, transgender people suffer from an incredibly high suicide rate because of how society treats us. the only way for us to improve our lives is to transition, meaning that a woman who was born physically male can become physically female, or a man who was born physically female can become physically male, and people who transition go on to lead much happier and better lives. it is potentially damaging, for any young person who might come to an LGBT space struggling with transgender issues, to be told by someone that they can never be a "real" man or woman, that gender doesn't exist, they're just mentally ill and it's "biological fact". trans people suffer enough stigmatization and marginalization from mainstream, it absolutely shouldn't happen in what should be a safe space for all LGBT people. and Boston knew this, he knew what was going to create the greatest upset, like someone telling gay people they're mentally ill and need to be cured or that they're an abomination and will go to hell.

Links234

http://i.imgur.com/s9ggj.png

bodice ripper

Links234 wrote: »

. it is potentially damaging, for any young person who might come to an LGBT space struggling with transgender issues, to be told by someone that they can never be a "real" man or woman, that gender doesn't exist, they're just mentally ill and it's "biological fact".

i'm sorry, but much has been made of this in this discussion - did boston ACTUALLY say this, or is this extrapolating from what he said?

I recall him saying that a transwoman was biologically distinct from some one born female, and that is it.

did I miss something?

Links234

you know well it's not a direct quote bodice ripper, but you seem to just be sticking up for him, so there's little point in arguing semantics over it.