Bitcoin - ###Mod Note in 1st Post - Please Read###

alb

KyussBishop wrote: »

Bitcoin practically guarantees that (you already see it with large scale ASIC operations making mining unaffordable for most people), which is actually worse than fiat, because at least fiat has some level of accountability to a democratic system, Bitcoin won't even have that.

I see where you're coming from but just two points, the Bitcoin the miners mine is of no value to them if they don't spend or sell it at some time. Many buying expensive mining equipment actually want to sell a lot of it as fast as possible to cover their overheads, many just see mining as way to get more fiat. I'm just saying that even relatively centralised mining, does not necessarily mean the mined coins do not eventually get a wide distribution. Again we could say the same for gold, people aren't pan-handling it from rivers so much anymore, it's big mining companies, but do they keep all the gold they mine? I've no numbers to verify the extent of aspect either way.

Secondly there is no reason that there ever has to be a loan industry dealing in Bitcoin. It can suceed without this. Is there a loan industry in gold? What I like is that if there is a loan industry that failed in Bitcoin it would not be *too big to fail*. Letting the loan 'bank' fail would never prevent me accessing my own Bitcoin, never allow the gov to debase it, or prevent me from making a transaction. I could still get paid to my wallet. The money itself would exist and function outside of the banks.

KyussBishop

alb wrote: »

I see where you're coming from but just two points, the Bitcoin the miners mine is of no value to them if they don't spend or sell it at some time. Many buying expensive mining equipment actually want to sell a lot of it as fast as possible to cover their overheads, many just see mining as way to get more fiat. I'm just saying that even relatively centralised mining, does not necessarily mean the mined coins do not eventually get a wide distribution. Again we could say the same for gold, people aren't pan-handling it from rivers so much anymore, it's big mining companies, but do they keep all the gold they mine? I've no numbers to verify the extent of aspect either way.

Secondly there is no reason that there ever has to be a loan industry dealing in Bitcoin. It can suceed without this. Is there a loan industry in gold? What I like is that if there is a loan industry that failed in Bitcoin it would not be *too big to fail*. Letting the loan 'bank' fail would never prevent me accessing my own Bitcoin, never allow the gov to debase it, or prevent me from making a transaction. I could still get paid to my wallet. The money itself would exist and function outside of the banks.

True, Bitcoins may not get loaned out like this - and ASIC miners I would agree are more likely to want to try and exchange Bitcoin for fiat - though more was pointing out how they've kind of put mining out of bounds of regular users, to a certain extent.

My concerns that I describe here, more apply to Bitcoin long-term if it becomes a stable currency, and don't really apply at all to how it is now.

In the past, during the gold standard, there was a loan industry in gold - and while gold today seems to be used as a pure 'store of value' (am not sure what gold miners tend to do today - whether they sell gold on or not), Bitcoin seems to be aiming more for use as a transactional currency built on real economic activity (or, if being more cynical, possibly as a purely speculative currency).

Yes though, this doesn't mean Bitcoin are likely to get loaned out in the future; there may be a reason why it would, I'm not sure, so I'm more talking about a potential problem, rather than one which is real.
That's an interesting thing to wonder about really: Would there be a reason, eventually, for people to start loaning out Bitcoin, and for people to start taking out Bitcoin loans? I'm not sure myself.

alb

KyussBishop wrote: »

In the past, during the gold standard, there was a loan industry in gold - and while gold today seems to be used as a pure 'store of value' (am not sure what gold miners tend to do today - whether they sell gold on or not), Bitcoin seems to be aiming more for use as a transactional currency built on real economic activity (or, if being more cynical, possibly as a purely speculative currency).

Yes though, this doesn't mean Bitcoin are likely to get loaned out in the future; there may be a reason why it would, I'm not sure, so I'm more talking about a potential problem, rather than one which is real.
That's an interesting thing to wonder about really: Would there be a reason, eventually, for people to start loaning out Bitcoin, and for people to start taking out Bitcoin loans? I'm not sure myself.

Bitcoin has no aims or agenda, the inventor may have had some, but it's in the wild now and Bitcoin will be used for whatever people decide to use it for and only changed for future purposes by consensus of the users. We'll find out in time how much of a loan industry, if any, emerges around it. https://www.coinlenders.com/ is the only current facility I know of, and I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally

alb

People keep bringing up the volatility issue. I found some analysis on it here http://news.coinometrics.com/measuring-bitcoin-volatility/

The TLDR is EUR:USD has a daily volatility of approximately 0.35%. Bitcoin 4 years ago had an average daily volatility of 9%, it has been gradually decreasing and is currently 4.5%

Bitcoin rose in value about 5000% in the last year, I think nearly everyone expects a significantly smaller percentage growth in the following year, which I guess will also lend to less volatility, but the trend from the link above would show it's a number of years away from being anything like as stable as our established currencies.

Hobbes

Keno wrote: »

So, like money?

I think Bitcoin would like to be a currency, but it isn't now.

When I take €1 from the bank, it is a guarantee that whoever takes that €1 off me can take it back to the bank and exchange it for equal value, even if no one else will.

Also if that bank has an issue paying that €1, it is insured against this (up to an extent).

Bitcoin on the other hand, the person issuing the bit coin is under no obligation to ever honour that Bitcoin again. If their servers get hacked, or they run out of cash there is no guarantee in place that you will get your cash back. In fact they can close up shop and walk off with your cash and bit coins. They might not be able to sell the bit coins you own, but you wouldn't be able to use them unless you do the computer version of stuffing them under your mattress.

It has no value when being released except the value in which you perceive it to be, while money does have a fixed value.

Now if exchanges followed actual real world banking rules it might be a different story.

Suryavarman

Hobbes wrote: »

I think Bitcoin would like to be a currency, but it isn't now.

A currency is something that is accepted as a medium of exchange by many people. Bitcoin is accepted by many people as a medium of exchange. Therefore Bitcoin is a currency.

It has no value when being released except the value in which you perceive it to be, while money does have a fixed value.

Money doesn't have a fixed value. It only has value if people are willing to accept it as a medium of exchange. Just like Bitcoin.

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

A currency is something that is accepted as a medium of exchange by many people. Bitcoin is accepted by many people as a medium of exchange. Therefore Bitcoin is a currency.



Money doesn't have a fixed value. It only has value if people are willing to accept it as a medium of exchange. Just like Bitcoin.

Cigarettes are used as a medium of exchange by many people as well but we wouldn't call it a real currency. Bitcoin is closer to a bartering system.. You buy or create an asset and pay for something with it.

Capt'n Midnight

http://rt.com/usa/bloomberg-anchor-robbed-bitcoin-747/

Bloomberg TV provided viewers with an important lesson in digital currency when one of its anchors had a gift card stolen while showing it during a live broadcast.

On Friday, December 20, Matt Miller surprised his two fellow anchors – Adam Johnson and Trish Regan – with bitcoin gift certificates during his “12 Days of Bitcoin” segment. Johnson then flashed his certificate on the screen for roughly 10 seconds - more than enough time for a Reddit user to scan the digital QR code with his phone and take the gift for himself.

The user, who goes by the name “milywaymasta,” took to Reddit to explain what happened.

“The guy that is hosting the series gave bitcoin gift certificates to the other two hosts. One of them opens up the certificate to reveal QR code of the private key,” he wrote. "They then proceeded to show a closeup of the QR code in glorious HD for about 10 seconds. Hilarious."

Jonny7

Bitcoin is more of a speculative commodity than a currency

Your mother isn't going to be using them to do the shopping for quite awhile - long after it's been regulated

Most of it's use is ironically to make real money, aka greed

alb

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://rt.com/usa/bloomberg-anchor-robbed-bitcoin-747/

The guy who 'stole it' did it quickly so that no one else could steal it. He immediately offered to give it back, but in the end they agreed to donate it to charity (Sean's Outpost)

The guy on bloomberg had no idea what he was doing, it was as if he was given a credit card for the first time and displayed the private details to the camera to show the public.

Of course the difference between Bitcoin and a credit card in terms of security, is that if I pay with a credit card I have to trust that the merchant won't steal my private details, or have them stolen from them . With Bitcoin if I pay for something, the merchant never has to see or have access to my private key. You just have to put on your big boy pants and make sure you don't compromise your own private key, such as displaying it on TV as the bloomberg guy did

Tiddlypeeps

Where are those guys who keep posting the bubble chart gone? :P

Mint Aero

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Where are those guys who keep posting the bubble chart gone? :P

She's on the Up again

Dean820

Go bitcoin!

Arawn

I see companies like vuze are starting to ask for donations in bitcoin now

howamidifferent

Arawn wrote: »

I see companies like vuze are starting to ask for donations in bitcoin now

Linky?

Arawn

howamidifferent wrote: »

Linky?

open vuze and it pops up

Genghiz Cohen

Zynga might start taking BTC now as well.

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-zynga-bitcoin-price-tops-1000-20140106,0,7065005.story

AtomicHorror

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Where are those guys who keep posting the bubble chart gone? :P

No wait, this is the real bubble now. Don't ask me when it will pop though. I just know for definite that it's a bubble.

Genghiz Cohen

Does Boards.ie have any plans to accept BTC for subscriptions?

hatrickpatrick

Sorry I know this is a bit off topic, but is there anywhere one can directly buy LITEcoins with either credit card or paypal? All of the Litecoin exchanges I've seen insist that you first sign up for obscure middleman/third party payment services (like Paypal), I'd much rather find somewhere that'll sell them directly. Anyone?

nyarlothothep

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Sorry I know this is a bit off topic, but is there anywhere one can directly buy LITEcoins with either credit card or paypal? All of the Litecoin exchanges I've seen insist that you first sign up for obscure middleman/third party payment services (like Paypal), I'd much rather find somewhere that'll sell them directly. Anyone?

I don't think they're sold directly anywhere. You could buy a certain amount worth of bitcoin and then exchange it for litecoin.

AtomicHorror

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Does Boards.ie have any plans to accept BTC for subscriptions?

Or tips jars...

IvaBigWun

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0304/600063-bitcoin-atm/

Ireland is about to get its first Bitcoin ATM when the machine is installed in a cafe in Temple Bar in Dublin.

It is expected to be online in the next couple of days.

The machine will allow users to exchange cash for Bitcoins.

Users will need to have a digital wallet set up in which to store their virtual currency.

They will scan their digital wallet, insert cash into the machine, and then have their purchased Bitcoins placed into their digital wallet.

Bitcoins are currently not recognised or regulated by the Central Bank and so anyone buying the virtual currency is not entitled to any protection.

The ATM is being placed in Hippety's Cafe, Wine Bar and Gallery on Fownes Street by a company called Bitvendo.

It describes itself on its website as being owned by a consortium of investors spread across three continents.


The company said it intends to roll out several ATMs in Ireland and in the UK during this year.

Bitcoin is a virtual digital currency, which is not backed by real assets and has no central authorities governing it.

Each Bitcoin is introduced to the system slowly over time, surrounded by a complex mathematical puzzle, and can only be unlocked by experts using high-powered computers - a process known as mining.

This slow release guards against inflation, and a finite number of 21 million Bitcoins will have been released by 2140.

The arrival of the first Bitcoin ATM in Ireland comes amid growing scepticism about the stability of the currency, following the collapse last week in Japan of the world's biggest Bitcoin exchange, Mt Gox.

It filed for bankruptcy protection on Friday, saying it may have lost some 850,000 Bitcoins worth $477m due to hacking into its faulty computer system.

Freddie Dodge

IvaBigWun wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0304/600063-bitcoin-atm/

Lovely unbiased article. Gox hasn't been the largest exchange for many a day. Blip.

Tiddlypeeps

I'm amazed that Bitcoin is holding it's value so well among all this turmoil. I really expected the price to crash right down to possibly double digits if countries started legislating against it or if large exchanges started to go under. Both of those have happened and it's still holding at 600/700 dollars.

Menas

Yup, I had thought this would be the biggest collapse since tulips, but was wrong. Bitcoin is holding its price over the last few weeks.

Now whether you choose to see that as half its December value or 60 times its value from 2 years ago depends on your outlook.

I see the Japanese are taking steps to regulate it. I suppose this can only help Bitcoin move from the perception that it is a speculative investment to a real currency alternative.
Time will tell.

I Heart Internet

I will give you 3 magic beans for you bitcoin.

whisky_galore

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I will give you 3 magic beans for you bitcoin.

I'll give you an imaginary elephant for your bitcoin.

id like to get me some of them Coin Bits.

--Kaiser--

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Yup, I had thought this would be the biggest collapse since tulips, but was wrong. Bitcoin is holding its price over the last few weeks.

Now whether you choose to see that as half its December value or 60 times its value from 2 years ago depends on your outlook.

I see the Japanese are taking steps to regulate it. I suppose this can only help Bitcoin move from the perception that it is a speculative investment to a real currency alternative.
Time will tell.

Let's see how the price holds up after the below news

Flexcoin shuts down after 897 Bitcoins hacked and stolen

Tiddlypeeps

Thats another one that screams inside job to me. The technology to keep bank accounts secure has existed for a good while now, there is no excuse for lax security in that regard.

If the prices are holding fairly strong through the whole mtGox thing so I can't see this having much of an effect. Half a mill worth of bitcoins isn't really that much in comparison to mtGox's losses which if I recall correctly were close to half a billion.

safetyboy

https://twitter.com/Baggot_Inn/status/440942941566033920/photo/1


baggot inn accepting now.

alb

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I will give you 3 magic beans for you bitcoin.

Deal, if you can send the magic beans to me peer-to-peer over the internet, without depending on any 3rd party, ensuring that I can trust you also did not give them to anyone else. That's how we roll with magic Internet money these days.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

damn, i really was hoping BTC would drop sub-$200 with the mt. gox meltdown. was going to buy a few.

IvaBigWun

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90237515&postcount=9526

Jester252

Man Bitcoin is tanking. While Dogecoin is holding steady.

alb

The dogecoiners sponsored Josh Wise in the NASCAR Talladega race last weekend.

Imagine tearing around the track at 200mph trying not to wreck yourself and having the doge meme staring back at you from the rear of the car in front. The internet is amazing.

bur

where is the place to go for bitcoins? want to pay as little transaction fee as possible.

alb

bur wrote: »

where is the place to go for bitcoins? want to pay as little transaction fee as possible.

I've used kraken.com and had no problems.

safetyboy

bur wrote: »

where is the place to go for bitcoins? want to pay as little transaction fee as possible.

try this if you want to buy localy and not use banks and ****e http://mycelium.com/

GSM charge 3 times the amount steer clear.

Miprocin

localbitcoins.com is good. Eircoin.net is very convenient but the fee is higher than what's on offer on localbitcoins and it requires a bank transfer.

Spunge

Localbitcoins is dead handy i just walked into a bank, lodged cash into someones account and had the coins within 2 hours.

Zombienosh

I don't understand bitcoin at all, and it makes me feel old.

Dohnjoe

As of right now, worth €3473.57 each

Mena

I'm pretty happy :-)

jinish

amacca wrote: »

jaysus...seem to have missed the gravy boat on that one

but presumably...high reward = high risk which also presumably still exists.

given me some interesting research anyway

Why didn't i find this thread then. 0.4cent for one bitcoin?
After 10 years its 40,000$ for one coin.

mickdw

I smell a big drop in about 2 weeks

iamstop

mickdw wrote: »

I smell a big drop in about 2 weeks

2 days more like. What level do you think it'll drop by?
I think it may only be a minor correction blip. As in, a temporary dip that is all par for the course. I can see it only growing long term tbh.

silliussoddius

So, this recent spike in prices. Is this due to people believing it's the latest and greatest in technology and a new currency or because they see potential for speculative gain?

mickdw

iamstop wrote: »

2 days more like. What level do you think it'll drop by?
I think it may only be a minor correction blip. As in, a temporary dip that is all par for the course. I can see it only growing long term tbh.

Probably recover this dip alright.
Im not an expert but I look at these things from the average joe perspective -
When the main stream media start talking about bitcoin, the man in the street gets involved and a drop is only around the corner then.