Bitcoin - ###Mod Note in 1st Post - Please Read###

Seaneh

LOL at the people at the start of this thread telling people "if you have any sell them now, it's never going to be worth anything, it's a scam, it's only for idiots".

I just wish I still had the few I mined over a few weeks in early 2010.

Seaneh

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

On paper. We were all property millionaires a few years ago, remember. The gullible fools are the ones who buy high, not the ones who spent a few dollars years ago. The real question is, what's 'high'?

I don't understand the hoopla arising from Chinese recognition of the currency. Does it make even on iota difference to Bitcoin as it currently exists? You still can't take payment in them like you can with traditional currencies, and wont be able to do for a long time with $100+- swings happening hourly.

If anything, as time goes on, Bitcoin becomes less likely to be usable for any kind of transactions that don't revolve around trading the bitcoins for cash themselves.

If you mined 100 coins in 2009 (not a whole lot of effort at the time, set up a dedicated pc and leave it running for a while) and sold them now, you've got $100,000. A lot of people did this, as it cost them (next to) nothing, old pc you don't use and electricity were the only costs incurred. Or even better, if you just bought 100 of them at $0.50 each, your $50 is worth €100,000 now.

But yeah, you're right, those people are all idiots, because you said so.

I know a few lads who had pretty hefty wallets at various stages

Nemeses2050

"Integral to Bitcoin is a public transaction ledger and log known as the blockchain, which shows who owns how many bitcoins currently and records the participants in all prior transactions as well. By keeping a record of all transactions, the blockchain prevents double-spending (copying one bitcoin and spending it in multiple different places) because the record shows that once a bitcoin has been spent, the previous owner no longer controls it.[14] The blockchain is maintained not by a central body but by a distributed network of computers that run a program to solve cryptographic puzzles relating to information in the blockchain.[14] Users who devote computing power to maintaining the blockchain this way are called "miners" because they are awarded in bitcoin when they are first to solve such puzzles—mining is how new bitcoins are generated.[14] The mathematical calculations performed by miners' computers serve to verify that each transaction is valid and add the information to the blockchain.[15] As more bitcoins come into circulation, the puzzles involved in mining them become increasingly difficult, and the rewards are halved at regular intervals, until 21 million bitcoins have been created and production stops.[14] As Bitcoin achieves wider recognition and more people compete to mine the coins, competition for the limited number of bitcoins awarded for solving the cryptographic puzzles becomes more steep and more powerful computers are needed in order to compete—a fact which has spawned a technology boom in sales of Bitcoin mining technology."

This sums up what a load of bollix this bitcoin is. You earn them by solving puzzles :eek:. In real world you need to work to earn money unless you're a dodgy dealer or some speculator.

alb

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

This sums up what a load of bollix this bitcoin is. You earn them by solving puzzles :eek:. In real world you need to work to earn money unless you're a dodgy dealer or some speculator.

Bitcoin is very much in the real world. The mining is work. Miners solve the 'cryptograhic puzzles' (which is a badly dumbed down phrase for what it actually is, btw) as proof they did work, and also verify the transactions in the network. It means no one can attempt to validate bogus transactions without doing more work than the majority of the network. This keeps it secure.

If you want to call it bogus based on some dumbed down description go ahead, but to discredit it among people who understand how and why it works you're going to need to find some holes in the original whitepaper: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

mickdw

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

This sums up what a load of bollix this bitcoin is. You earn them by solving puzzles :eek:. In real world you need to work to earn money unless you're a dodgy dealer or some speculator.

Whatever you think of it and Im not convinced myself of the security of holding them, the fact remains that if you bought into them say 2.5 years ago when prices were in the region of 10 to 20 dollars, you could now be cashing out at 50 to 100 times investment. Now I guess realistically most would have cashed out some or all of their investment long before now but still some crazy returns in real hard cash.

Seaneh

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

This sums up what a load of bollix this bitcoin is. You earn them by solving puzzles :eek:. In real world you need to work to earn money unless you're a dodgy dealer or some speculator.

As opposed to fiat money, which banks create, from nothing, and has no intrinsic value and nothing to back it up besides the say so of a central bank?

How is that any different?

Nemeses2050

Seaneh wrote: »

As opposed to fiat money, which banks create, from nothing, and has no intrinsic value and nothing to back it up besides the say so of a central bank?

How is that any different?

There's your answer

HighClass

Litecoin have now gone up to just under $50. Can see them going up a lot more in the next few weeks. I was reading loads into Bitcoin last year but didn't really think about buying into them as I only thought they would be used for buying things on The Silk Road. Oh well

Max Keiser will be on ITV news tonight as well talking about BTC so I'd expect that to put the price up a bit again.

Cantona's Collars

What about this poor fecker who threw out a hard drive last year,the bitcoins he amassed would have been worth around €6 million.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2514580/Bitcoins-worth-4m-hard-drive-thrown-Newport-landfill-accident.html

I am pie

It would be great if you could actually "cash out"

Apparently if you try to cash out on the most popular exchange mgtox they say it will take several months for the money to hit your irish bank account.

Now, given that this currency is generated for free or has been bought by people at anything from 5 to 10% of it's current value, where do people think the money is coming from to pay up when people want to cash out?

If you can't cash out, it's all for nothing surely.

Seaneh

I am pie wrote: »

It would be great if you could actually "cash out"

Apparently if you try to cash out on the most popular exchange mgtox they say it will take several months for the money to hit your irish bank account.

Now, given that this currency is generated for free or has been bought by people at anything from 5 to 10% of it's current value, where do people think the money is coming from to pay up when people want to cash out?

If you can't cash out, it's all for nothing surely.

When I sold mine it took 3 days to hit my PayPal account and I got full value.

alb

I am pie wrote: »

It would be great if you could actually "cash out"

Apparently if you try to cash out on the most popular exchange mgtox they say it will take several months for the money to hit your irish bank account.

Yes, the mtgox exchange appears to be having problems, related to the snail banking system, and US regulation. I would not recommand anyone try to convert bitcoins to fiat money there until it's clear that their problems have been sorted out. There are plenty of other exchanges to try instead, bitstamp.com, bitcoin.de to name just two. You can even arrange face to face cash transactions with people on localbitcoins.com

I am pie wrote: »

Now, given that this currency is generated for free or has been bought by people at anything from 5 to 10% of it's current value, where do people think the money is coming from to pay up when people want to cash out?

If you can't cash out, it's all for nothing surely.

It's not generated for free, it takes computational work to generate.

The idea is that eventually you don't need to 'cash out' as Bitcoin itself can be used to make payments. We're still in the early stages so it's not very widespread yet. But if you are a merchant in Ireland, and accept Bitcoins you are already more likely to get my custom than someone who doesn't, and you'll pay less fees too, so you make more profit.

There are huge incentives for merchants to adopt this, all those Bitcoin millionaires may want to spend some of their coin no?

A possible scenario: The system grows as more people discover it and acquire bitcoin, the price rises, it's volatile at first as any large buy or sell can affect it. It stablises over time as it grows, volatility decreases and merchant adoption increases. Eventually there is a whole ecosystem exchanging goods and services for Bitcoin, and there is often no need for people to convert to government money at all, if their customers and suppliers both use bitcoin.

srsly78

Seaneh wrote: »

When I sold mine it took 3 days to hit my PayPal account and I got full value.

MtGox takes several months to "cash out", this is the exchange with the most volume and highest price at the moment.

Seaneh

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

There's your answer

No, that isn't an answer. It just highlights your ignorance even more. Bitcoin has just as much to back it up as fiat money does. If anything it's less of a ponzi scheme.

Seaneh

srsly78 wrote: »

MtGox takes several months to "cash out", this is the exchange with the most volume and highest price at the moment.

Then don't use MtGox.

srsly78

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

This sums up what a load of bollix this bitcoin is. You earn them by solving puzzles :eek:. In real world you need to work to earn money unless you're a dodgy dealer or some speculator.

It is not up to you alone to decide the market value of things. Personally I don't think that kicking a pigs bladder around counts as work either, but the market would seem to disagree.

Nemeses2050

Seaneh wrote: »

No, that isn't an answer. It just highlights your ignorance even more. Bitcoin has just as much to back it up as fiat money does. If anything it's less of a ponzi scheme.

So bitcoin is backed up by eh..... meh. It's simply another tool for speculators, doesn't matter how much you deny it.

Seaneh

That's all any currency is, ffs.

Nemeses2050

With other currencies you can do many other things like buying food, paying for bills et al.

srsly78

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

With other currencies you can do many other things like buying food, paying for bills et al.

I just cashed in my bitcoins and am now about to do my shopping with the euros.

Seaneh

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

With other currencies you can do many other things like buying food, paying for bills et al.

You can use Bitcoin to pay for endless services online. It's not only accepted by internet drug dealers.

You can also cash them in for whatever fiat currency you want and spend that as you please.

alb

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

With other currencies you can do many other things like buying food, paying for bills et al.

People are speculating that Bitcoin will be used for this in future. It's still young and this growth and adoption takes time.

Bitcoin is *already* able to be used as money to buy these things and some merchants do accept it. You can buy beer in some pubs in the UK with it for example, you can buy many things online.

Yes, it seems no business in Ireland yet takes it but there's an argument that they will in future because it's better in many ways than the current payment systems they use.

usersame

I'll sell litecoin if anyone wants it, I charge 50% commission, PM if interested I'll take bank transfer or paypal

Nemeses2050

Seaneh wrote: »

You can use Bitcoin to pay for endless services online. It's not only accepted by internet drug dealers.

You can also cash them in for whatever fiat currency you want and spend that as you please.

Can you please quote a few usefull services from your endless services list

alb wrote: »

People are speculating that Bitcoin will be used for this in future. It's still young and this growth and adoption takes time.

Bitcoin is *already* able to be used as money to buy these things and some merchants do accept it. You can buy beer in some pubs in the UK with it for example, you can buy many things online.

Yes, it seems no business in Ireland yet takes it but there's an argument that they will in future because it's better in many ways than the current payment systems they use.

I doubt It'll have long future though, but the folks who invested in it speculating - good luck to them.

Finding a retailer who'll accept bitcoin is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Anyway all the best for people who believe in it's future and when I can run to my local and buy a can of milk, I'll accept it as legitimate currency.

srsly78

You will have trouble finding someone to take Sterling here as well, but that does not invalidate it's use as a currency.

Mint Aero

God I hope this guy made a fortune http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73183063

srsly78

We all do, because 33% of his gains will go to bailing out our banks and paying our public sector.

Nemeses2050

that Question typifies your denial about bitcoin being a load of ......

srsly78

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

that Question typifies your denial about bitcoin being a load of ......

It is likely that our Office of the Revenue Commissioner's has already taken in some money from Capital Gains Tax on bitcoin earnings. It gets treated just like gains from other "foreign exchange" of currencies.

This could be paying for your dole, so don't knock it.

Nemeses2050

srsly78 wrote: »

It is likely that our Office of the Revenue Commissioner's has already taken in some money from Capital Gains Tax on bitcoin earnings. It gets treated just like gains from other "foreign exchange" of currencies.

This could be paying for my dole, when I loose all my hard earnings on this speculative commodity. so don't knock it.

Fixed it for you

srsly78

I'm self employed so no dole for me unfortunately! Just lots of tax.

There is no capital gains on amounts up to e1270, and in this years form 11 my declared FX gains are under this threshold.

I've cashed out, done and dusted.

Nemeses2050

Well then you can help your other brethren

srsly78

I am already paying for you, there is no need to rub it in. You seem to think it's "imaginary" tax I would be paying, on these "imaginary" bitcoins tho...

alb

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

Finding a retailer who'll accept bitcoin is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Anyway all the best for people who believe in it's future and when I can run to my local and buy a can of milk, I'll accept it as legitimate currency.

Fair point, and waiting until you can use it in your daily life (and indeed until it's easier to do so) is a valid reason for not buying any now if you don't want to speculate.

Nemeses2050

Jeez didn't know my boss had a love child.

c_man

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

a can of milk

:eek:

thunderdog

srsly78 wrote: »

I just cashed in my bitcoins and am now about to do my shopping with the euros.

Out of curiosity is there any particular reason why you cashed out at this point?

srsly78

Because I am a dumbass obviously.

I actually sold the coins a few months ago (DOH), and have had the euros sitting in mtgox until recently. Takes several months to actually withdraw euros for mt gox.

I never got into this for speculation, I bought a few coins last year to buy stuff online. Now I'm just cashing in the "loose change".

xploderz

Thankfully the Irish government don't know anything about bitcoins otherwise we'd be expecting a "soft landing" and anybody who doesn't believe in bitcoins should go off and commit suicide.

From an investment point of view, this graph is very worrying:
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ajdnra.jpg

Mint Aero

xploderz wrote: »

From an investment point of view, this graph is very worrying:
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ajdnra.jpg

What d'ya find worrying about it?

Seaneh

Mint Aero wrote: »

What d'ya find worrying about it?

It will fall, drastically, but the question is, when?

I wouldn't buy now, but I wish I'd spend €100 on some a year ago (or even a few weeks ago).

AtomicHorror

Seaneh wrote: »

It will fall, drastically, but the question is, when?

You get that from a graph?

View it on a shorter timescale and it looks less scary. View it on a 100 year time scale and the whole thing is scary. Tells us squat.

KyussBishop

alb wrote: »

People are speculating that Bitcoin will be used for this in future. It's still young and this growth and adoption takes time.

If that were true, people would not be cashing out now while Bitcoin is peaking, they would be holding onto it long-term.

People are cashing out now, because they know the price rise is only temporary (if they believed otherwise, then there is no logical reason for them to cash out, as it's only going up, right?) - they are using it for speculation, in a bubble that amounts to a Ponzi scheme, where a lot of people at the bottom will be losing what they put in.

For the 'true believers' who think this is a permanent transformation of Bitcoin and not just a bubble, and are holding onto their coins, I don't judge them as they're putting their money where their beliefs are, but the people who know this is a Ponzi-like bubble, and use it to extract wealth from those at the bottom, are scumbags in my view.

There's no excuse for knowingly participating in a Ponzi-like bubble, to exploit those below - particularly one as hyped as this.

Seaneh

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You get that from a graph?

View it on a shorter timescale and it looks less scary. View it on a 100 year time scale and the whole thing is scary. Tells us squat.

All currency has falls, no currency has rises THAT sharp in THAT short a time without it later collapsing to a more "normal" level.

KyussBishop

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You get that from a graph?

View it on a shorter timescale and it looks less scary. View it on a 100 year time scale and the whole thing is scary. Tells us squat.

It's pretty much the archetype of a bubble:
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-6EWdbjTr_PU/TwSvWAYGlmI/AAAAAAAABE8/qRA5uI2S8lE/s1600/nasdaq+bubble.png
http://dshort.com/charts/bears/bubbles/shanghai-index.gif

Take this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Stages_of_a_bubble.png

And compare it to this - you can see each stage play out:
https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price

Kikin

Seaneh wrote: »

All currency has falls, no currency has rises THAT sharp in THAT short a time without it later collapsing to a more "normal" level.

Patterns like this have been repeated countless times throughout history. Is really just a matter of when enough of the guys who have made the most gains from this steep rise decide to cash out their "winnings".

AtomicHorror

Seaneh wrote: »

All currency has falls, no currency has rises THAT sharp in THAT short a time without it later collapsing to a more "normal" level.

At some point, BTC went from $0 to something. Graph that in the right way and it'll look far scarier than the graph we're looking at now and would be just as meaningless because we have no proper context yet. "Normal" is very hard to define when something has yet to have ever been normal. It might mean 0, 100, 1000 or any number you like to infinity.

I'm not saying BTC won't drop, I think it will. But calling "bubble" based on aesthetics or comparison to other graphs is pure pseudoscience.

forgotten password

currency flexibility, we could see it eh , changed for currency stability

geetar

everyone investing in it isnt using it for a currency, they're placing a bet that its going to go up in value, and dramatically so.

if nobody is willing to use it because it will be worth 10% more tomorrow, how does that make it anything other than a speculative investment?

it's far from stable because it is currently not being used as a currency, which is its entire purpose. its an entirely speculative over inflation that does not represent its true value at all in any way shape or form. it will certainly drop in value, its a matter of when, not if.

the hockey stick graph is almost cliché bubble territory at this stage. my guess is that it will drop significantly, before stablising around the mid hundreds range. i only say that because i do see bitcoins having significant value in the future, just not at the artificially inflated levels we see now.

i would also be worried about th significant amounts of bitcoins that people with large buying power currently own. its only a matter of time before they decide to bail and flood the market causing a crash and leaving small time investors with the spare change in their pockets.

Frank Garrett

I just read the first 10 pages of this thread and they were calling it a bubble in late-2010.