Bitcoin - ###Mod Note in 1st Post - Please Read###

Tigger

KyussBishop wrote: »

If that were true, people would not be cashing out now while Bitcoin is peaking, they would be holding onto it long-term.

People are cashing out now, because they know the price rise is only temporary (if they believed otherwise, then there is no logical reason for them to cash out, as it's only going up, right?) - they are using it for speculation, in a bubble that amounts to a Ponzi scheme, where a lot of people at the bottom will be losing what they put in.

For the 'true believers' who think this is a permanent transformation of Bitcoin and not just a bubble, and are holding onto their coins, I don't judge them as they're putting their money where their beliefs are, but the people who know this is a Ponzi-like bubble, and use it to extract wealth from those at the bottom, are scumbags in my view.

There's no excuse for knowingly participating in a Ponzi-like bubble, to exploit those below - particularly one as hyped as this.

capitalist as scumbag is a very uninformed view

forgotten password

buy it, move it

Mint Aero

Frank Garrett wrote: »

I just read the first 10 pages of this thread and they were calling it a bubble in late-2010.

and they were so sure of it too.

KyussBishop

Tigger wrote: »

capitalist as scumbag is a very uninformed view

If someone promotes and participates in a Ponzi-like bubble, that they are fully aware will rebound to a much lower value, with the intention of making a profit by exploiting all of the people at the bottom who will be left with less than they put in, then they are a scumbag.

Ponzi schemes are illegal for a reason, and this being a Ponzi-like bubble, is like a legalized version of a Ponzi scheme, with the same ethical problems.

seamus

In principle I'd subscribe to the bubble theory, except that bitcoin isn't a typical currency which can be inflated and deflated by a central bank or by large economic problems in the issuing country. The total no. of bitcoins is finite and as such they can be likened more to gold. They can be traded, stored and lost but they cannot be created.
Discovering a way to "game" the system and create more bitcoins would obviously collapse their value but my understanding is that this would be mathematical alchemy (i.e. Simply not possible)

And now that people have put money in the game, they've no reason to withdraw it. So I don't see where the collapse can come from.

You could argue that because they're intangible they've inherently less worth, but in reality gold too is effectively just a totem against which we value goods and services. If the worldwide economy collapsed tomorrow, a vault full of gold will be no good at putting food on the table any more than a hard drive full of bitcoins.

One thing which makes curious is whether a competing bitcoin currency can be created. Start a new bitcoin from a new seed. Now you have competing bitcoin currencies, effectively equal. And suddenly bitcoin 1 sees its value collapse.
Perhaps the maths make this impossible.

johnr1

seamus wrote: »

In principle I'd subscribe to the bubble theory, except that bitcoin isn't a typical currency which can be inflated and deflated by a central bank or by large economic problems in the issuing country. The total no. of bitcoins is finite and as such they can be likened more to gold. They can be traded, stored and lost but they cannot be created.
Discovering a way to "game" the system and create more bitcoins would obviously collapse their value but my understanding is that this would be mathematical alchemy (i.e. Simply not possible)

And now that people have put money in the game, they've no reason to withdraw it. So I don't see where the collapse can come from.

You could argue that because they're intangible they've inherently less worth, but in reality gold too is effectively just a totem against which we value goods and services. If the worldwide economy collapsed tomorrow, a vault full of gold will be no good at putting food on the table any more than a hard drive full of bitcoins.

One thing which makes curious is whether a competing bitcoin currency can be created. Start a new bitcoin from a new seed. Now you have competing bitcoin currencies, effectively equal. And suddenly bitcoin 1 sees its value collapse.
Perhaps the maths make this impossible.

Interesting idea, - fake bitcoin, basically, which some merchants would theoretically accept in ignorance........and people would buy if it cost slightly less..........my brain is too small to see the hole in this, but im sure there must be one or else it would have been done by now.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/technology/it-worker-s-bitcoin-fortune-ends-up-buried-in-landfill-1.1610454

An IT worker is frantic after losing a £4 million-plus digital fortune he inadvertently threw out with the rubbish.

James Howells (28), would be a bitcoin multimillionaire - if he could lay his hands on the computer hard drive containing his fortune.

But the digital cash is lost in a mountainous landfill site in Newport, south Wales where bin men took it after it was thrown out by mistake.

geetar

Frank Garrett wrote: »

I just read the first 10 pages of this thread and they were calling it a bubble in late-2010.

Mint Aero wrote: »

and they were so sure of it too.

well it was hardly considered a bubble back in 2010 when it was worth pittance.

its only taken off above the $20 at the start of this year. last week it was worth $400, and now its over $1000.

that is exponential growth, all of which is based on speculation. say what you will, but ive seen the most keen bitcoin investors calling this rise in prices a bubble. everyone can see it, and if you dont, you may want to reconsider how strong your investing brain is before you get foolish.

the bubble will be temporary, but it will pop. bitcoins wont dissapear, but a lot of peoples money will. unless you cash before its too late, like any investor worth his salt will do, you may fall victim to it along with many others.

srsly78

johnr1 wrote: »

Interesting idea, - fake bitcoin, basically, which some merchants would theoretically accept in ignorance........and people would buy if it cost slightly less..........my brain is too small to see the hole in this, but im sure there must be one or else it would have been done by now.

If it's fake it would not pass validation. Noone should accept an unvalidated transaction...

"Computer says no"

Mint Aero

geetar wrote: »

well it was hardly considered a bubble back in 2010 when it was worth pittance.

its only taken off above the $20 at the start of this year. last week it was worth $400, and now its over $1000.

that is exponential growth, all of which is based on speculation. say what you will, but ive seen the most keen bitcoin investors calling this rise in prices a bubble. everyone can see it, and if you dont, you may want to reconsider how strong your investing brain is before you get foolish.

the bubble will be temporary, but it will pop. bitcoins wont dissapear, but a lot of peoples money will. unless you cash before its too late, like any investor worth his salt will do, you may fall victim to it along with many others.

Ok sound advice thanks

alb

seamus wrote: »

One thing which makes curious is whether a competing bitcoin currency can be created. Start a new bitcoin from a new seed. Now you have competing bitcoin currencies, effectively equal. And suddenly bitcoin 1 sees its value collapse.
Perhaps the maths make this impossible.

Agree with all other parts of your post, as for the final bit I quoted, there are already loads of other crypto currencies. You can see a list of the most valued, ordered by market cap here: http://coinmarketcap.com/

In order to be trustworthy Bitcoin had to be open source, any closed source or centralised currency will now be a step backwards. One consequence of being open source is that anyone can take the code, change it a bit and launch it as their own coin.

Lets be clear here, these alt-coins as they're called, cannot be spent as Bitcoins in the Bitcoin network, they are completely separate networks, with separate client software and separate mining networks.

some have some interesting changes, but by and large most are copycats with no innovation and offer no real advantage over bitcoin.

Whether a better coin than bitcoin will be introduced and overtake it is one of the main risks to bitcoin, however any such coin would have to be open source, and therefore Bitcoin could adapt by copying any useful changes anyway. I think there's room for many to co-exist.

There is a whole ecosystem already about crypto currencies btw, sites such as cryptsy.com have day traders trading between the alt-coins all day long. It's a niche hobby within itself already for people that enjoy trading. There's also a bitcoin based stock market at cryptostocks.com where you can invest in companies directly and receive dividends in bitcoin - no brokers, no quarterly fees, no barrier to entry.

Kikin

seamus wrote: »

In principle I'd subscribe to the bubble theory, except that bitcoin isn't a typical currency which can be inflated and deflated by a central bank or by large economic problems in the issuing country. The total no. of bitcoins is finite and as such they can be likened more to gold. They can be traded, stored and lost but they cannot be created.
Discovering a way to "game" the system and create more bitcoins would obviously collapse their value but my understanding is that this would be mathematical alchemy (i.e. Simply not possible)

And now that people have put money in the game, they've no reason to withdraw it. So I don't see where the collapse can come from.

Don't have the figures to hand but I was reading that something like 90%-95% of bitcoin transactions at the moment are for investments. Eventually people want to liquidate their investments. The collapse will come from people cashing in their investments after seeing colossal returns. This sparks panic among other holders who also want to sell before the price falls too much. Then a new price base is set, the graph returns to the mean. I believe like the last bitcoin crash, around 60%-70% will be wiped off the value, still leaving them at a high enough value ($400~)

This exact aspect of human and social psychology was written about in the, 1840s by Charles mackay in the madness of crowds publication. It's nothing new

SusieBlue

I thought this thread was about those stupid cartoon things on facebook.

/leaves thread

hatrickpatrick

Just to clarify, faking a bitcoin would be practically impossible. Every bitcoin that can possibly exist is already hardcoded into the bitcoin network - when people talk of "mining", what they're actually doing is decrypting. In other words, the coins already exist, they simply can't be used until the block they are in has been decrypted. The reason mining becomes more difficult over time is because one has to decrypt more data in order to get the same amount of bitcoins.

Bearing this in mind, the only way to change the hardcoded limit in the bitcoin network would if if you could convince everyone running Bitcoin software to upgrade to a new version you have created, with new rules. Otherwise, if you attempted to introduce new bitcoins yourself by adding lines of code to the already hardcoded bitcoins, it wouldn't work because other bitcoin clients wouldn't have this new code you'd have introduced and would reject it.

Think of it like an organ transplant - just as the body recognizes a foreign body which wasn't part of the original design and attempts to attack it, so other bitcoin clients will recognize new code which wasn't part of the original chain, and unless you've convinced everyone to switch to a new version of the software which has room for these new lines, they will never be validated by the rest of the network.
Incidentally, this is why bitcoin transactions take so long - a transaction is only complete when enough bitcoin miners have validated it in this way to be absolutely sure it's not a fraudulent transaction. I suppose one good side effect of the increase in mining difficulty and therefore the increase in computing power people are putting into the mining process is that increased computing power in the network = faster processing of these transaction validations.

So tl;dr version, unless someone discovers some kind of absolutely gaping and fundamental mathematical exploit in the bitcoin software, it's simply not possible to create fake bitcoins and actually use them.

KyussBishop

KyussBishop wrote: »

If someone promotes and participates in a Ponzi-like bubble, that they are fully aware will rebound to a much lower value, with the intention of making a profit by exploiting all of the people at the bottom who will be left with less than they put in, then they are a scumbag.

Ponzi schemes are illegal for a reason, and this being a Ponzi-like bubble, is like a legalized version of a Ponzi scheme, with the same ethical problems.

Do you know what a Ponzi scheme even is?

Hope you have a mortgage you scumbag. By your definition, they're "ponzi".

KyussBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you know what a Ponzi scheme even is?

Hope you have a mortgage you scumbag. By your definition, they're "ponzi".

Did you even bother your arse Googling 'Ponzi scheme', clicking the first result, and seeing if, just maybe, it bears some resemblance to economic bubbles? (go on, do it now...)

If someone buys a house to live in, grand, they are not any different to someone buying bitcoins and holding onto them long term, for use as a currency not as a vehicle for speculation.

If someone buys a house, watches a housing bubble grow, and sells on the house for the express purpose of profiting at the peak of the bubble before it bursts (in full knowledge that they are profiting off of a bubble, where a lot of people must lose and go into enormous debt in order for the financiers to turn a profit), then yes - they are an absolute scumbag.

As you have seen, the damage caused by the speculators in the housing bubble, was worldwide and crippled entire countries - there's a reason Ponzi schemes are illegal, and a reason why economic bubbles should be strictly regulated against (arguably there was rampant fraud in the case of the housing bubble too - banks pumping out mortgages/debt beyond sustainability, to inflate their own wages/bonuses, and to give their partners in finance a massive bubble to speculate/profit over).

The kind of scumbags who profit off of these unethical (yet legal) acts, at the expense of other people (and in the case of the housing bubble, the expense of the rest of society), are far more damaging to society than your average criminal, because their actions affect a much greater number of people, and do far more wide ranging and long lasting damage, and are far easier to get away with without repercussion (which is why, where they are made illegal, they should be extremely harshly dealt with).

Jonny7

geetar wrote: »

well it was hardly considered a bubble back in 2010 when it was worth pittance.

its only taken off above the $20 at the start of this year. last week it was worth $400, and now its over $1000.

that is exponential growth, all of which is based on speculation. say what you will, but ive seen the most keen bitcoin investors calling this rise in prices a bubble. everyone can see it, and if you dont, you may want to reconsider how strong your investing brain is before you get foolish.

the bubble will be temporary, but it will pop. bitcoins wont dissapear, but a lot of peoples money will. unless you cash before its too late, like any investor worth his salt will do, you may fall victim to it along with many others.

Yes, and to every investor or adviser - all alarm bells are currently going off

However, the last bubble spiked at approx 240ish then dropped down to 50ish.. but crucially didn't fade back to 20

Now that it has gone to 1K.. yes there will be a sharp drop, however the public interest is so massive in this (from a pure money making point of view, and thanks to get rich quick stories) that any sharpish drop will lead to a huge hunger for bitcoins at that lower price - because, crucially, we have the knowledge it can rebound (and it will)

So when the fall comes.. it's going to have difficulty dropping to even 400 which was considered an insanely high point literally 2 weeks ago

Mint Aero

Did Alex Jones say Bitcoin is gonna crash soon?

Buy Buy Buy

thunderdog

srsly78 wrote: »

Because I am a dumbass obviously.

I actually sold the coins a few months ago (DOH), and have had the euros sitting in mtgox until recently. Takes several months to actually withdraw euros for mt gox.

I never got into this for speculation, I bought a few coins last year to buy stuff online. Now I'm just cashing in the "loose change".

Several months???!really. I withdraw half of my bitcoins from bitstamp during the last crash and it hit my account 2 days later

srsly78

Selling the coins is instant. Withdrawing the euros is the problem. MtGox blame the heavy regulation, and AML rules that make it difficult for them to transfer money from japan to poland (which is where their euro transactions happen).

In fairness, I haven't read about anyone not being able to take their euros out - just that it can take a while.

stevedublin

Mint Aero wrote: »

Did Alex Jones say Bitcoin is gonna crash soon?

Buy Buy Buy

It could crash if the Chinese government take action against Bitcoin.

Mint Aero

Howabout VirWox for cashing out?

JONJO THE MISER

Just started trading it there daily last night, i brought it yesterday and today and im already in profit from last night and today.
Im going to keep buying it daily and then short it once it hits $1500.

stevedublin

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Im going to keep buying it daily and then short it once it hits $1500.

How does someone short bitcoin?

JONJO THE MISER

stevedublin wrote: »

How does someone short bitcoin?

I opened a account with a online trading platform last week, you can buy or short shares, stock markets, oil, gold, silver etc etc.

srsly78

And what is the name of this platform?

JONJO THE MISER

I went with Plus500.

srsly78

Careful now: http://forexmagnates.com/bitcoin-surge-and-volatility-cause-plus500-to-alter-trading-conditions/

Mint Aero

I jumped ship :P it's down 9% since yesterday, f8ck that Xmas is coming

I'll buy back in when BTC is 20 bucks next month

xploderz

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Just started trading it there daily last night, i brought it yesterday and today and im already in profit from last night and today.
Im going to keep buying it daily and then short it once it hits $1500.

What makes you think it will hit $1500 ? And what timeframe are we talking here..

KyussBishop

KyussBishop wrote: »

Did you even bother your arse Googling 'Ponzi scheme', clicking the first result, and seeing if, just maybe, it bears some resemblance to economic bubbles? (go on, do it now...)

If someone buys a house to live in, grand, they are not any different to someone buying bitcoins and holding onto them long term, for use as a currency not as a vehicle for speculation.

If someone buys a house, watches a housing bubble grow, and sells on the house for the express purpose of profiting at the peak of the bubble before it bursts (in full knowledge that they are profiting off of a bubble, where a lot of people must lose and go into enormous debt in order for the financiers to turn a profit), then yes - they are an absolute scumbag.

As you have seen, the damage caused by the speculators in the housing bubble, was worldwide and crippled entire countries - there's a reason Ponzi schemes are illegal, and a reason why economic bubbles should be strictly regulated against (arguably there was rampant fraud in the case of the housing bubble too - banks pumping out mortgages/debt beyond sustainability, to inflate their own wages/bonuses, and to give their partners in finance a massive bubble to speculate/profit over).

The kind of scumbags who profit off of these unethical (yet legal) acts, at the expense of other people (and in the case of the housing bubble, the expense of the rest of society), are far more damaging to society than your average criminal, because their actions affect a much greater number of people, and do far more wide ranging and long lasting damage, and are far easier to get away with without repercussion (which is why, where they are made illegal, they should be extremely harshly dealt with).

A ponzi scheme involves returns being paid to investors using new investor's money.. It's really quite simple. I don't care about your scumbag argument that much.. It's just inaccurate to start it with a big word you don't understand.

usersame

bit of a crash going on now lads if ye want to check it ouy

Seaneh

usersame wrote: »

bit of a crash going on now lads if ye want to check it ouy

It's fallen about 17% since the start of the day.

It's had bigger one day falls in the past.

I don't doubt that it's going to get lower, but it's not going to completely implode.

I'd imagine there are just a lot of people who've had large wallets for a while trying to cash in on the high price, which has meant there is suddenly a lot of btc in circulation and now the demand doesn't meat supply, where as yesterday and the weeks before supply was much smaller than demand.

JONJO THE MISER

Down 23% today, now is the time to buy lads.
I was reading forums and there are people saying that bitcoin will rise again next week as people are funding there accounts which takes a couple of days.

usersame

bounce! got on board BTC at 800 should do ok

Loomis

Went from 690 to 740 in the space of about 5 minutes

JONJO THE MISER

Gained 8% since in half a hour, looks i brought at the right time.

KyussBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

A ponzi scheme involves returns being paid to investors using new investor's money.. It's really quite simple. I don't care about your scumbag argument that much.. It's just inaccurate to start it with a big word you don't understand.

You can't even bother your arse Googling it - go on, as I said in my last post, put Ponzi Scheme into Google, and click the first link, and see if it bears any resemblance to bubbles like we're seeing now.

Except you know I wasn't arguing what you're pretending I argued, but you want to hold onto that straw-man because it's the only single thing your argument is based on - get back to me when you've taken 5 seconds to type that into Google.

KyussBishop

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Down 23% today, now is the time to buy lads.
I was reading forums and there are people saying that bitcoin will rise again next week as people are funding there accounts which takes a couple of days.

Yes, it will return to 'normal' any moment now:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Stages_of_a_bubble.png

Capt'n Midnight

http://bitcoinity.org/markets

change: -17.17% high: 878.00 low: 609.46


*gets popcorn*

usersame

just bought 250 quark coins for a long hold

hungry hippo 4

well done girls, 20 pages and still no explanation!

kowloon

Make extra popcorn Capt'n, I'll get the drinks.

usersame

what do u want to know?

hungry hippo 4

usersame wrote: »

what do u want to know?

why is my left ball bigger than the right?

rwg

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

well done girls, 20 pages and still no explanation!

cryptographic currency - close thread

hungry hippo 4

rwg wrote: »

cryptographic currency - close thread

yaw yaw

max keiser answered both my questions.

He also said boards is for queers.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Mint Aero

Glad I got out of this muck on time. T'is the biggest load of sh*te ever
Everyone wants their money back for xmas, best to buy in the january sales

rwg

Mint Aero wrote: »

Everyone wants their money back for xmas, best to buy in the january sales

or buy and sell ps4's

usersame

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

why is my left ball bigger than the right?

There are a lot of potential causes, you should examine your testicles regularly and go to your GP if you notice any lumps or are in any pain

The physiological difference in positioning which can be perceived as size is due to the difference in venous drainage between the two testicles and whether the testicular vein joins the inferior vena cava directly or if it first joins the renal vein

any thing else?