Depression

knuckledragger

anon01 wrote: »

i do think id be the same as yourself seanybiker as in when i start i wount be able to shut up and i do find it extremley hard to say how im feeling but its something i guess ill have to start doing.

You don't need to "shut up" Counsellors are there to help.

The one caveat is that if you were to avail of on-campus counselling, there may be a limit as to how many sessions they can provide you due to cutbacks.

That said, it sounds like you have a lot on your plate.

If it's difficult to get your head straight, just keep a piece of paper somewhere safe, write down your thoughts over a period, and bring it with you to counselling.

No counsellor would be expect you to turn up at a session, being able to fully articulate your situation. Part of their job is to help you understand it yourself.

Go see a counsellor. Seriously.

Mars Bar

This is weird.

I voted in this poll when the thread started and voted "I have never suffered from depression". At the time, I was confused and was getting counseling but didn't think I was depressed.

Here I am a few weeks later on Anti - depressants.

Can I change my answer on the poll?!

Vicxas

Man that sucks

Novella

Naikon wrote: »

Just be aware, a depression diagnosis will disqualify you for career paths. At least for an extended period of time.

Do you think not treating depression for this reason is a good idea then?

Leiva

Excellent Thread and would be useful as a sticky on a major chunk of Boards threads.
Even if it just got the ball moving for someone to start to communicate whilst in that dark place of depression .

Naikon

Novella wrote: »

Do you think not treating depression for this reason is a good idea then?

At least not through the official channels, no. Personally, I would offer as little information as possible. As a society, we are fond of labelling and catagorically branding people.

You just can't trust people with this sort of stuff. I mean really, a mental health diagnosis is a potential black mark. It's not a good attribute to have noted. Sure, disclosure is limited, but the potential to **** up certain aspirations always remains. Any job that requires high security clearance for instance.

WesternNight

Naikon wrote: »

At least not through the official channels, no. Personally, I would offer as little information as possible. As a society, we are fond of labelling and catagorically branding people.

You just can't trust people with this sort of stuff. I mean really, a mental health diagnosis is a potential black mark. It's not a good attribute to have noted. Sure, disclosure is limited, but the potential to **** up certain aspirations always remains. Any job that requires high security clearance for instance.

Possibly the worst advice/attitude in this thread, in my opinion.

It's absolutely true that we're prone to labelling people. But that doesn't make diagnoses of depression, or anything else, invalid. It doesn't mean that depression, or anything else, shouldn't be treated appropriately.

It's society that labels and stigmatises, by and large. Doctors might put a name on a disease or disorder, but it's mainly society that decides how people are treated once the diseases are named. So telling people to hush up their possible depression...that's only contributing to the stigma.

Naikon

knuckledragger wrote: »

You don't need to "shut up" Counsellors are there to help.

The one caveat is that if you were to avail of on-campus counselling, there may be a limit as to how many sessions they can provide you due to cutbacks.

That said, it sounds like you have a lot on your plate.

If it's difficult to get your head straight, just keep a piece of paper somewhere safe, write down your thoughts over a period, and bring it with you to counselling.

No counsellor would be expect you to turn up at a session, being able to fully articulate your situation. Part of their job is to help you understand it yourself.

Go see a counsellor. Seriously.

Maybe I am shortsighted or stuck in my stubborn ways, but I fail to see how talking to strangers about highly personal stuff is a great idea. Disclosure has clearly defined limits. Not that I think other people should not try it, it just never crossed my mind as a viable solution.

WesternNight

Naikon wrote: »

Maybe I am shortsighted or stuck in my stubborn ways, but I fail to see how talking to strangers about highly personal stuff is a great idea. Disclosure has clearly defined limits. Not that I think other people should try it, it just never crossed my mind as a viable solution.

Strangers who are trained to deal with it. Strangers who have strategies to help the person deal with it.

Naikon

Buceph wrote: »

As will having to wear glasses, but no-one would recommend to someone not to get their eyes tested if they think there's a problem with them.

These two aren't comparable imo. As far as I am aware, hospitals which hold people with visual disorders don't exist.

Bruthal

Naikon wrote: »

These two aren't comparable imo.

Well i think they are. You think the best thing when someone is suffering from severe depression is to think of their career path ahead of getting help with it?

Naikon

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well i think they are. You think the best thing when someone is suffering from severe depression is to think of their career path ahead of getting help with it?

It's a seriously difficult issue no doubt. I have no definite answers. You always have to protect yourself from outside influence though. The stigma is silly, but you can't change perceptions.

wiger toods

Deleted User wrote: »

----
Editing this post to add in some phone numbers/websites that people may find useful:
Samaritans
Phone - 1850 60 90 90 Text (great service) - 087 2 60 90 90

Mental Health Ireland

Aware
----

Depression and suicide are a major risk in this country, especially with young males. It is seen as a taboo to have, which is something that needs to be broken. So - have you ever suffered from depression before? The above poll's results are private, so don't worry about anyone seeing them.

This being AH, I am aware that some smart ass c*nt will make smart assed c*ntish replies, but I hope the rest of the posters just ignore them and we can have an open debate on this issue.

For those suffering from depression, I hope they are aware that the personal issues forum (under soc) allows for anonymous posting, that is moderated. The mods over there do a superb job and ensure that only good advice is given.

I have suffered from depression in the past and still do sometimes, but I am doing a lot better now. I realised a lot of mine was circumstance-orientated so I made a change - I quit my job that was affecting me greatly and went back to do my final year in college, I went out to make some new friends and have become much more active.

For those suffering from depression, there is still hope. Talk to someone about it. If you're in third level education, go out and speak to an oncampus counselor.

Fair play to ya boneyarsebogman. Id say alot of people will find this extremely useful!
Well done buddy!:)

Bruthal

Naikon wrote: »

It's a seriously difficult issue no doubt. I have no definite answers. You always have to protect yourself from outside influence though. The stigma is silly, but you can't change perceptions.

No, but its better to be alive with a slightly narrower career prospect, than no prospect ever again.

Naikon

WesternNight wrote: »

Possibly the worst advice/attitude in this thread, in my opinion.

It's absolutely true that we're prone to labelling people. But that doesn't make diagnoses of depression, or anything else, invalid. It doesn't mean that depression, or anything else, shouldn't be treated appropriately.

It's society that labels and stigmatises, by and large. Doctors might put a name on a disease or disorder, but it's mainly society that decides how people are treated once the diseases are named. So telling people to hush up their possible depression...that's only contributing to the stigma.

Are you discrediting my advice because I am giving my perspective on the truth, or because my arguments are illogical? I hate arrogance, but I don't like burying my head in the sand. No amount of rulebooks and "procedures" will eliminate prejudice. No amount of assurance will catch the fringe cases. Excuses can be fabricated.

Novella

Naikon wrote: »

Are you discrediting my advice because I am giving my perspective on the truth, or because my arguments are illogical? I hate arrogance, but I don't like burying my head in the sand. No amount of rulebooks and "procedures" will eliminate prejudice. No amount of assurance will catch the fringe cases. Excuses can be fabricated.

Your argument is illogical, in my opinion anyway, I'm afraid. Someone who is suffering from depression should not suffer in silence for fear of having a 'black mark' as you put it. Do you have any idea how debilitating of an illness depression is? It's not just being a bit sad, then spilling your secrets to a 'stranger' and being all better. That's so simplistic.

Depression, when left untreated, in my experience, snow-balls. It starts off as a few bad days perhaps and gets worse and worse 'til there is no light at the end of the tunnel. No way should anyone just leave something as serious as this, no way.

kumate_champ07

winter is gone, hooray!!

Naikon

Novella wrote: »

Your argument is illogical, in my opinion anyway, I'm afraid. Someone who is suffering from depression should not suffer in silence for fear of having a 'black mark' as you put it. Do you have any idea how debilitating of an illness depression is? It's not just being a bit sad, then spilling your secrets to a 'stranger' and being all better. That's so simplistic.

Depression, when left untreated, in my experience, snow-balls. It starts off as a few bad days perhaps and gets worse and worse 'til there is no light at the end of the tunnel. No way should anyone just leave something as serious as this, no way.

Do you acknowledge the possibility of being assigned a label though? This is the primary reason people refuse to seek treatment. Seems pretty logical to me. You have to weigh up the potential gains/losses. I am aware of what Depression can do to people, but I would still hesitate to shout at the top of my lungs telling people not to "suffer in silence". The whole "chemical imbalance" stuff is mostly nonsense, though it sounds somewhat legitimate for the purpose of generating profit.

Exercise caution. Don't go pouring your heart out until you have analysed all possible outcomes. Try to confide with people you know in non medical settings if possible.

thebaz

fairly scary results , only 25 % have not suffered from it - thats 75 % that have - i have suffered with it for 10 years , received very little help from services - my GP is ok , but just said i have to live with it forever - when i get a blast of it , usually triggered by something , life just goes blank and dark - lasts 2 or 3 days -

Trog

Naikon wrote: »

Do you acknowledge the possibility of being assigned a label though? This is the primary reason people refuse to seek treatment. Seems pretty logical to me. You have to weigh up the potential gains/losses. I am aware of what Depression can do to people, but I would still hesitate to shout at the top of my lungs telling people not to "suffer in silence". The whole "chemical imbalance" stuff is mostly nonsense, though it sounds somewhat legitimate for the purpose of generating profit.

Exercise caution. Don't go pouring your heart out until you have analysed all possible outcomes. Try to confide with people you know in non medical settings if possible.

So you think there's no middle ground between suffering in silence and getting help? There's no rule you have to tell everyone you know if you're getting help. The things you are saying are ridiculous.

Yes, obviously there is a stigma attached to depression. Why does this mean that people should stay quiet about it? Why should your perception of me force me to suffer more? I think you underestimate the severity of the situation. We're not talking about people feeling down and not wanting to talk about it. I had some relatively small problems which ballooned to a point where I actually had physical symptoms because of my depression. The reason they ballooned is because I felt like I shouldn't speak to anyone because I was afraid of the stigma.

I spoke to a councilor, in confidence. I didn't tell anyone else about it. I started to recover, and got to a point where I could tell my friends. None of them reacted like I thought they would. Several of them told me that they had been depressed before. I could have killed myself because of the underestimation of the severity of depression you show, combined with the overestimation of the importance of stigma.

Normally I'm happy to leave differences of opinion as they are once both people have made their points, but your ignorance could actually have a cost, people read these things for guidance.
If there is anyone reading this wondering what to do, please just get help. Talk to someone, ask a doctor what the best course of action is. It's not as hard as it seems.

kumate_champ07

Naikon wrote: »

Do you acknowledge the possibility of being assigned a label though? This is the primary reason people refuse to seek treatment. Seems pretty logical to me. You have to weigh up the potential gains/losses. I am aware of what Depression can do to people, but I would still hesitate to shout at the top of my lungs telling people not to "suffer in silence". The whole "chemical imbalance" stuff is mostly nonsense, though it sounds somewhat legitimate for the purpose of generating profit.

Exercise caution. Don't go pouring your heart out until you have analysed all possible outcomes. Try to confide with people you know in non medical settings if possible.

ye I cant believe they use that term but they dont actually test you for chemical imbalances, what exactly is the imbalance? low serotonin levels is usually mentioned but as far as I know they dont even do a physical test for that but give you medication that physically effects your serotonin production

Naikon

Trog wrote: »

So you think there's no middle ground between suffering in silence and getting help? There's no rule you have to tell everyone you know if you're getting help. The things you are saying are ridiculous.

Yes, obviously there is a stigma attached to depression. Why does this mean that people should stay quiet about it? Why should your perception of me force me to suffer more? I think you underestimate the severity of the situation. We're not talking about people feeling down and not wanting to talk about it. I had some relatively small problems which ballooned to a point where I actually had physical symptoms because of my depression. The reason they ballooned is because I felt like I shouldn't speak to anyone because I was afraid of the stigma.

I spoke to a councilor, in confidence. I didn't tell anyone else about it. I started to recover, and got to a point where I could tell my friends. None of them reacted like I thought they would. Several of them told me that they had been depressed before. I could have killed myself because of the underestimation of the severity of depression you show, combined with the overestimation of the importance of stigma.

Normally I'm happy to leave differences of opinion as they are once both people have made their points, but your ignorance could actually have a cost, people read these things for guidance.
If there is anyone reading this wondering what to do, please just get help. Talk to someone, ask a doctor what the best course of action is. It's not as hard as it seems.

This isn't trivial stuff. I take that as a given. I just want to point out that Doctors and "counsellors" may not be the best point of call for situations like this. Seek help, just be suspicious of any advice given by so called cash hungry "professionals". I get the impression these very medical professionals may lack knowledge about depression. Ticking off **** like "have you been "sad" for two weeks or more?" just mocks the severity of the illness.

indough

i genuinely cant believe what im reading. first time thats happened in a good while too.

starviewadams

I'd been struggling with depression and anxiety for years and was completely afraid of seeking medical help because of the stigma attached,which sadly some people still seem to think is a good thing,judging by a few of the previous posts.

My depression got so bad as to where I was crying constantly for no apparent reason,was unable to sleep and cutting myself to pieces on a daily bases. I was finally persuaded/forced to seek help by my brother after he noticed the marks on my arms.

It was the best thing that I've ever done,my doctor referred me to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with bi-polar disorder and GAD and I've been on meds since before Xmas aswell as seeing a psychologist once a week and am much happier in my own skin now tho I still have my bad days every now and then. if I had not been forced to seek help god knows what I would be like now,I'd urge anybody on here who is feeling depressed to ignore the small minded stigma that some people still attach to mental iilness and to seek professional help.

Wolfe Tone

Bit out there maybe, but talking to a priest may be a help..... They have lots and lots of experience dealing with depressed people, just a suggestion

RichieC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Bit out there maybe, but talking to a priest may be a help..... They have lots and lots of experience dealing with depressed people, just a suggestion

Probably best to leave it to professionals, though, aye?

seanybiker

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Bit out there maybe, but talking to a priest may be a help..... They have lots and lots of experience dealing with depressed people, just a suggestion

Not a bad suggestion. My mother brought me to a priest years ago to get blessed. I'm not religious at all but sure it made the mother happy and it didn't harm me so why not

Wolfe Tone

RichieC wrote: »

Probably best to leave it to professionals, though, aye?

Yeah, but some where saying they dont want to go to professionals and that, any decent priest will actually chat with ya, not fire some holy water at you and send you on your way.

WalterMitty

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

ye I cant believe they use that term but they dont actually test you for chemical imbalances, what exactly is the imbalance? low serotonin levels is usually mentioned but as far as I know they dont even do a physical test for that but give you medication that physically effects your serotonin production

The term "chemical imbalance " may have arisen due to marketing departments in pharmaceutical departments but it doesnt mean theres not a biochemical basis for depression. The truth is that the mind/mood systems are so complex that a simple story is needed to inform general public.

Giving a medicine that affects serotonin levels is actually probably an indirect way of boosting mood. Prozac and other SSRIs actual raise levels of serotonin very quickly(hours) in the brain but mood doesnt improve for weeks. It is thought that SSRIs cause production of other substances in brain that enhance mood and cognitive functioning.

There has been very clear genetic evidence of predisposition to psychiatric disorders. Genes along with environment effect neurotransmitter /mood systems in brain which can lead susceptible individuals to become ill.
If you dont think "chemical imbalances" can lead you to become unwell, down a bottle of whiskey and see how you feel mentally in the morning. Genes and environment affect how all the systems in our bodies(including mood/brain systems) function and there is a spectrum of functioning with vast majority of "normal " people clustered around it. In same way that some people insulin system doesnt function optimally, some peoples mood system doesnt function optimally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

cordub

I think unfortunatly that if you admit you have been treated for depression on a job application form you wont have a chance in hell of getting that job, but I also think the same could be said for admitting you had anorexia or ocd , the world is full of people who are predjudist so I think I would be slow to admit depression if I had it myself , as sad as that is to say because I dont think by admitting to it to a potential employer is going to change peoples perception of the illness but I would most definatley urge anyone who has depression NOT to ignore it and go seek help ASAP as the sympthoms only get worse with time.

Wibbs

thebaz wrote: »

fairly scary results , only 25 % have not suffered from it - thats 75 % that have

Something I simply don't buy. Not unless the Boards demographic consists of a far higher proportion of mental illness than the general population. I'm sure the demographic would be slightly skewed on that score. Online relationships and cultures may be more welcoming and easier to navigate for emotionally sensitive types of people.

That said it could go the other way too. The internet as well as providing support might increase the rates or trajectory of the illnesses. Look at self harm/cutting etc. Almost unknown 20 years ago. Not even in the medical literature outside of seriously disturbed people, now every second person with a mental illness (or even just your average mopey teenage emo) is cutting and the rates are increasing. http://www.crpsib.com/whatissi.asp#rates http://www1.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Is that genetic? Are those in the UK genetically different to the rest of europe, never mind the world? Are they that culturally different? It's certainly not "genetic". Not in a million years. Pro anorexia sites and the like also wouldn't help. IMHO it's a thin line between online support, through misery loves company, to egging each other on about how miserable ye all can be. Even as far as making it somehow fashionable to be thus. A very thin line.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

ye I cant believe they use that term but they dont actually test you for chemical imbalances, what exactly is the imbalance? low serotonin levels is usually mentioned but as far as I know they dont even do a physical test for that but give you medication that physically effects your serotonin production

Yep and if a doctor tells you its down to such an imbalance, ask him or her for a test to confirm that level in the brain. Be specific about the latter. Watch the reaction. Hint: there isnt such a test as serotonin breaks down in the blood, or the cells utilise it themselves. You can't measure it accurately in the living brain. There is a test to measure the breakdown chemicals left over, but it's hardly accurate and indeed is more useful for other purposes as these chemicals go up in certain cancers. And contrary to popular how these drugs work or don't as the case may be is very much up in the air. They may actually make things worse long term.

Ditto for some forms of therapy and illness. Post traumatic stress? You would think the talking cure would help there? Not so much it seems, may even make things worse http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_35/ai_n29374947/ The drug therapy does nada beyond placebo/sugar pill. For the majority of individuals the "condition"(natural reaction to an emotional trauma more like) will pass with zero input from outside.

But but, depression is different of course? It has to be. Or is it? Back in the 60's the Head of the National institute of mental health in the US said “Depression is, on the whole, one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment.”(emphasis mine) http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/depressionstudies/ No? Too old an opinion? OK check out the attached PDF "The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy.PDF" at the bottom. Translation; what happens if you leave it alone. You want more? I can keep firing off study after study that shows drug therapies make the outcome of depression in most individuals worse. Not better. They may even be implicated in turning unipolar depressive episodes into more chronic bipolar illness. There's at least the guts of a question over these things.

IMHO The most compelling question should be: While many will bemoan the lack of services, the simple fact is we have never had so many drugs therapies and talk therapies and social support for mental illness in this country(and in the west). You think the stigma is bad today compared to before? Are you serious? We've never had so many shrinks or counselors or therapists. Yet we're told the rates of mental illness are going up. To the degree of it being an"epidemic!!", more than one in four, or by this poll one in four isn't suffering from a mental illness. That's daft and this quite simple does not compute. Pick any area of medicine you like and aim resources at it and the cure/maintenance rates go down. They don't bloody well spike and increase. So either this is being massively overdiagnosed, or the therapies don't work(statistically provable in a few areas) or they make it worse or more chronic particularly the drug therapies(again statistically provable in a few areas). Or a mixture of both. To be fair some forms of talking therapy does seem to work for many in easing symptoms.

I've just been shocked over the last 10-20 years how much we've imported the US model of mental illness and health in general. I've been seriously shocked with the rates of people seeking therapies and juiced up on goofballs. It is my humble opinion that these therapies, very much in particular the drug therapies are very similar to our over reliance on antibiotics over the last 50 years. An over reliance we're paying for now. Like antidepressants antibiotics are and were serious effin wonder drugs. They did and do work on saving many lives. But what did we do with the antibiotics? We fired them at mild stuff, even fired them at viruses(and I guarantee a fair few readers think they work for them). We fired them at bugs that would have gone away naturally. And what happened? Anti biotic resistance and people with lowered resistance. Both the medical profession and the patients were to blame too. We all want the pill for every ill. For me the parallels are very strong. I'd put a large bet down that I'll be proven more right than wrong if this gets read in 20 years time(if not sooner).

My (doubtless very unpopular) 3 cents.

Naikon

Wibbs wrote: »

Something I simply don't buy. Not unless the Boards demographic consists of a far higher proportion of mental illness than the general population. I'm sure the demographic would be slightly skewed on that score. Online relationships and cultures may be more welcoming and easier to navigate for emotionally sensitive types of people.

That said it could go the other way too. The internet as well as providing support might increase the rates or trajectory of the illnesses. Look at self harm/cutting etc. Almost unknown 20 years ago. Not even in the medical literature outside of seriously disturbed people, now every second person with a mental illness (or even just your average mopey teenage emo) is cutting and the rates are increasing. http://www.crpsib.com/whatissi.asp#rates http://www1.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Is that genetic? Are those in the UK genetically different to the rest of europe, never mind the world? Are they that culturally different? It's certainly not "genetic". Not in a million years. Pro anorexia sites and the like also wouldn't help. IMHO it's a thin line between online support, through misery loves company, to egging each other on about how miserable ye all can be. Even as far as making it somehow fashionable to be thus. A very thin line.

Yep and if a doctor tells you its down to such an imbalance, ask him or her for a test to confirm that level in the brain. Be specific about the latter. Watch the reaction. Hint: there isnt such a test as serotonin breaks down in the blood, or the cells utilise it themselves. You can't measure it accurately in the living brain. There is a test to measure the breakdown chemicals left over, but it's hardly accurate and indeed is more useful for other purposes as these chemicals go up in certain cancers. And contrary to popular how these drugs work or don't as the case may be is very much up in the air. They may actually make things worse long term.

Ditto for some forms of therapy and illness. Post traumatic stress? You would think the talking cure would help there? Not so much it seems, may even make things worse http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_35/ai_n29374947/ The drug therapy does nada beyond placebo/sugar pill. For the majority of individuals the "condition"(natural reaction to an emotional trauma more like) will pass with zero input from outside.

But but, depression is different of course? It has to be. Or is it? Back in the 60's the Head of the National institute of mental health in the US said “Depression is, on the whole, one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment.”(emphasis mine) http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/depressionstudies/ No? Too old an opinion? OK check out the attached PDF "The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy.PDF" at the bottom. Translation; what happens if you leave it alone. You want more? I can keep firing off study after study that shows drug therapies make the outcome of depression in most individuals worse. Not better. They may even be implicated in turning unipolar depressive episodes into more chronic bipolar illness. There's at least the guts of a question over these things.

IMHO The most compelling question should be: While many will bemoan the lack of services, the simple fact is we have never had so many drugs therapies and talk therapies and social support for mental illness in this country(and in the west). You think the stigma is bad today compared to before? Are you serious? We've never had so many shrinks or counselors or therapists. Yet we're told the rates of mental illness are going up. To the degree of it being an"epidemic!!", more than one in four, or by this poll one in four isn't suffering from a mental illness. That's daft and this quite simple does not compute. Pick any area of medicine you like and aim resources at it and the cure/maintenance rates go down. They don't bloody well spike and increase. So either this is being massively overdiagnosed, or the therapies don't work(statistically provable in a few areas) or they make it worse or more chronic particularly the drug therapies(again statistically provable in a few areas). Or a mixture of both. To be fair some forms of talking therapy does seem to work for many in easing symptoms.

I've just been shocked over the last 10-20 years how much we've imported the US model of mental illness and health in general. I've been seriously shocked with the rates of people seeking therapies and juiced up on goofballs. It is my humble opinion that these therapies, very much in particular the drug therapies are very similar to our over reliance on antibiotics over the last 50 years. An over reliance we're paying for now. Like antidepressants antibiotics are and were serious effin wonder drugs. They did and do work on saving many lives. But what did we do with the antibiotics? We fired them at mild stuff, even fired them at viruses(and I guarantee a fair few readers think they work for them). We fired them at bugs that would have gone away naturally. And what happened? Anti biotic resistance and people with lowered resistance. Both the medical profession and the patients were to blame too. We all want the pill for every ill. For me the parallels are very strong. I'd put a large bet down that I'll be proven more right than wrong if this gets read in 20 years time(if not sooner).

My (doubtless very unpopular) 3 cents.

Yes. well this is all and good...but the companies need to make a profit. What better way to dupe the masses than to whittle down the complexities of depression to a mechanical process whereby you take pills to ensure you conform. It does not seem very scientific when doctors suggest that you must "try" various brands to get the best match. Maybe depressed people are being duped? - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091023163346.htm

starviewadams

Would I be right in saying that the studies above mainly refer to general depression rather then bi-polar depression?

Buceph

Wibbs wrote: »

Something I simply don't buy. Not unless the Boards demographic consists of a far higher proportion of mental illness than the general population. I'm sure the demographic would be slightly skewed on that score. Online relationships and cultures may be more welcoming and easier to navigate for emotionally sensitive types of people.

That said it could go the other way too. The internet as well as providing support might increase the rates or trajectory of the illnesses. Look at self harm/cutting etc. Almost unknown 20 years ago. Not even in the medical literature outside of seriously disturbed people, now every second person with a mental illness (or even just your average mopey teenage emo) is cutting and the rates are increasing. http://www.crpsib.com/whatissi.asp#rates http://www1.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Is that genetic? Are those in the UK genetically different to the rest of europe, never mind the world? Are they that culturally different? It's certainly not "genetic". Not in a million years. Pro anorexia sites and the like also wouldn't help. IMHO it's a thin line between online support, through misery loves company, to egging each other on about how miserable ye all can be. Even as far as making it somehow fashionable to be thus. A very thin line.

Yep and if a doctor tells you its down to such an imbalance, ask him or her for a test to confirm that level in the brain. Be specific about the latter. Watch the reaction. Hint: there isnt such a test as serotonin breaks down in the blood, or the cells utilise it themselves. You can't measure it accurately in the living brain. There is a test to measure the breakdown chemicals left over, but it's hardly accurate and indeed is more useful for other purposes as these chemicals go up in certain cancers. And contrary to popular how these drugs work or don't as the case may be is very much up in the air. They may actually make things worse long term.

Ditto for some forms of therapy and illness. Post traumatic stress? You would think the talking cure would help there? Not so much it seems, may even make things worse http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_35/ai_n29374947/ The drug therapy does nada beyond placebo/sugar pill. For the majority of individuals the "condition"(natural reaction to an emotional trauma more like) will pass with zero input from outside.

But but, depression is different of course? It has to be. Or is it? Back in the 60's the Head of the National institute of mental health in the US said “Depression is, on the whole, one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment.”(emphasis mine) http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/depressionstudies/ No? Too old an opinion? OK check out the attached PDF "The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy.PDF" at the bottom. Translation; what happens if you leave it alone. You want more? I can keep firing off study after study that shows drug therapies make the outcome of depression in most individuals worse. Not better. They may even be implicated in turning unipolar depressive episodes into more chronic bipolar illness. There's at least the guts of a question over these things.

IMHO The most compelling question should be: While many will bemoan the lack of services, the simple fact is we have never had so many drugs therapies and talk therapies and social support for mental illness in this country(and in the west). You think the stigma is bad today compared to before? Are you serious? We've never had so many shrinks or counselors or therapists. Yet we're told the rates of mental illness are going up. To the degree of it being an"epidemic!!", more than one in four, or by this poll one in four isn't suffering from a mental illness. That's daft and this quite simple does not compute. Pick any area of medicine you like and aim resources at it and the cure/maintenance rates go down. They don't bloody well spike and increase. So either this is being massively overdiagnosed, or the therapies don't work(statistically provable in a few areas) or they make it worse or more chronic particularly the drug therapies(again statistically provable in a few areas). Or a mixture of both. To be fair some forms of talking therapy does seem to work for many in easing symptoms.

I've just been shocked over the last 10-20 years how much we've imported the US model of mental illness and health in general. I've been seriously shocked with the rates of people seeking therapies and juiced up on goofballs. It is my humble opinion that these therapies, very much in particular the drug therapies are very similar to our over reliance on antibiotics over the last 50 years. An over reliance we're paying for now. Like antidepressants antibiotics are and were serious effin wonder drugs. They did and do work on saving many lives. But what did we do with the antibiotics? We fired them at mild stuff, even fired them at viruses(and I guarantee a fair few readers think they work for them). We fired them at bugs that would have gone away naturally. And what happened? Anti biotic resistance and people with lowered resistance. Both the medical profession and the patients were to blame too. We all want the pill for every ill. For me the parallels are very strong. I'd put a large bet down that I'll be proven more right than wrong if this gets read in 20 years time(if not sooner).

My (doubtless very unpopular) 3 cents.

I've gone through those links, apart from offering nothing conclusive in some, at least one of them deals with absolute bat**** insane levels of ridiculousness.

They're talking about dealing with psychosis without drugs. Do you know what psychosis is? An inability to separate your thoughts and distinguish what reality actually is. Telling someone who has voices, or thinks that the tv is talking to them that they're just getting hidden messages from the back of their mind is absolutely, completely and utterly dangerous.



I do agree that depression is being way, way over-diagnosed and anti-depressants are being over-prescribed. But that's a problem with the health service being rushed off it's feet. And doctors trained to treat chemically and having no training in other methods. That's why people need to insist on being treated properly. Find out who the conservative psychiatrists are. Read their papers (it's fairly easy to determine who hands out pills willy nilly and who doesn't, and tells you "Yes, your mother just died, you will feel upset :rollyeyes:")

But saying don't seek help is ridiculous. In the past community ties were much stronger. There were loads of cases of people being "fatigued" and the community helping them through it. That's just not happening automatically anymore. No, don't ignore the problem, but keep in mind that doctors aren't capable of anything and everything, and the best help you might get could be from friends and family, from someone in your community (as Wolfe Tone said, I'm sure priests have dealt with this kind of thing a lot.) Look at your lifestyle, exercise more, eat healthily, get away from passive entertainment and get involved in things, try and adopt a regular lifestyle. It's when all of this seems impossible and not just hard that you start considering doctors. And at that point you need to start insisting that the doctors take you seriously. There are ways to get help out there, and it's not all down to taking one pill a night and having all your problems disappear. For a lot of people that shouldn't even be considered. But for some people, it absolutely is necessary.

starviewadams wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that the studies above mainly refer to general depression rather then bi-polar depression?

Actually, it's not talking about "Depression" at all. But "Depressive episodes." Which are two completely different things. It's a bull**** tactic used by the conspiracy-groups to try and scare people.


Edit: I also checked the impact factor of journals from some of those links' most extraordinary claims. And they seem extremely poor, verging on having no scientific merit at all.

Wibbs

Naikon wrote: »

Yes. well this is all and good...but the companies need to make a profit. What better way to dupe the masses than to whittle down the complexities of depression to a mechanical process whereby you take pills to ensure you conform. It does not seem very scientific when doctors suggest that you must "try" various brands to get the best match. Maybe depressed people are being duped? - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091023163346.htm

In that link she seems to be suggesting not that drugs don't work, but that they can rustle up better drugs that will based on her rat research. More pills for every ill. But I suppose the heel of the hunt is that as the song goes the drugs don't work(for many). More than one study has shown that for mild depression the SSRI type meds are next to useless. Placebo gets better results. Considering the very real side effects of SSRI type medications that's mad Ted. Now you could argue that in more extreme depression they are more effective and I would agree, but exercise is just as effective. May even be more so. Check out attached PDF. Basically this study looked at older depressed patients treated with either exercise on it's own, exercise plus an SSRI, or the SSRI on it's own. At the of 16 weeks those treated with just exercise were as mentally well as the other two groups and at the end of a year were doing better than either. Yea. Better. There are loads of these studies out there.

starviewadams wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that the studies above mainly refer to general depression rather then bi-polar depression?

Yes. TBH it was the general and pretty huge effin rise in people I was bumping into that were being diagnosed as depressed that fascinated me. I didn't realy look at the bipolar end, but I have read that the incidence of bipolar have increased a lot in the last 40 years. This has been explained as better diagnosis, but it does seem to me anyway that there has been an extension of the criteria that garners a diagnosis and some environmental chnages too. Marijuana usage does have a correlation with an increased risk of it. As does the use of SSRI's if some studies are to be believed. Basically people who in the past might have had one depressive episode, now because of drug therapy may become more chronically mentally ill with bipolar like symptoms. check out the second PDF. That's the only one I have on bipolar though.

Wibbs

Buceph wrote: »

I do agree that depression is being way, way over-diagnosed and anti-depressants are being over-prescribed.

That's all I'm saying too.

But saying don't seek help is ridiculous. In the past community ties were much stronger. There were loads of cases of people being "fatigued" and the community helping them through it. That's just not happening automatically anymore. No, don't ignore the problem, but keep in mind that doctors aren't capable of anything and everything, and the best help you might get could be from friends and family, from someone in your community (as Wolfe Tone said, I'm sure priests have dealt with this kind of thing a lot.) Look at your lifestyle, exercise more, eat healthily, get away from passive entertainment and get involved in things, try and adopt a regular lifestyle. It's when all of this seems impossible and not just hard that you start considering doctors. And at that point you need to start insisting that the doctors take you seriously. There are ways to get help out there, and it's not all down to taking one pill a night and having all your problems disappear. For a lot of people that shouldn't even be considered. But for some people, it absolutely is necessary.

I agree. As I stated these are wonder drugs, but not to the degree that every second person is on the damn things or that 2/3 of the people chiming in on this thread are or have been clinically depressed.

Actually, it's not talking about "Depression" at all. But "Depressive episodes." Which are two completely different things. It's a bull**** tactic used by the conspiracy-groups to try and scare people.

Incorrect. The PDF I attached was talking about depression. Major depression. Here's another attached talking about depression. There are any number of others including WHO reports and studies that show that for low level depression(not depressive episodes either) SSRI's are no more effective than placebo.

It's eff all to do with conspiracy groups. At no point did I say people should not seek help(indeed I would be of the opinion the CBT style therapy is very valuable). At no point do I say that these anti D drugs are useless. I even describe them as wonder drugs, so less of the hyperbole there Ted.

I am saying that the rates bandied about are bullshít. That the efficacy and wisdom of using these very strong drugs in often self diagnosed so called "depressives" should be challenged. That there exists a large chunk of people who claim they're depressed who are more likely to be using it as a label for self centered and self indulgent behaviour so they can escape personal responsibility or actually growing up. Which I suppose is a mental health issue in of itself or a social one anyway.

Trog

Naikon wrote: »

This isn't trivial stuff. I take that as a given. I just want to point out that Doctors and "counsellors" may not be the best point of call for situations like this. Seek help, just be suspicious of any advice given by so called cash hungry "professionals". I get the impression these very medical professionals may lack knowledge about depression. Ticking off **** like "have you been "sad" for two weeks or more?" just mocks the severity of the illness.

Are you in any way educated in the matter, or are you just having a go at the medical profession? Most councilors don't make much money, but still go through a lot of training to be able to do what they do. There are MANY volunteers involved in the mental health industry. Doctors who may not be adept at dealing with these matters are always able to refer to people who are.

You have an ill-informed opinion about the issue, and if you were to recognize the gravity of the situation you wouldn't be throwing your ridiculous opinion around like this. Do you really think people go into the mental health field just to make money? If they're that 'cash hungry', then surely there's easier ways to do it than going through 6+ years of training?

What you are basically doing is accusing people of having cynical motives on no evidence, and advising people against getting help which will probably save their lives based on these accusations. Have some cop on.

Edit: I'll agree that depression tends to be over prescribed, but the mere act of seeking help from a professional makes such a huge difference, In my opinion most major cases would be minor cases if the above kind of attitude was dropped and people got help earlier.

Naikon

Trog wrote: »

What you are basically doing is accusing people of having cynical motives on no evidence, and advising people against getting help which will probably save their lives based on these accusations. Have some cop on.

There is plenty of research out there to support my "baseless" accusations.

This guy sums up the whole AD culture better than I can in a paragraph:
http://saveyourself.ca/articles/reality-checks/anti-depressants.php

Take a look at the literature he links to. Irrespective of the Mental Health, you appear to take a pretty naive stance towards human motives. Do you actually understand the role of a corporation?
It mostly boils down to profit at the end of the day. Seriously, do you think monoliths like Pfizer actually have other motives beyond "how can we maxmize profit?". It's a pretty simple concept.

Wibbs

Trog wrote: »

Most councilors don't make much money, but still go through a lot of training to be able to do what they do. There are MANY volunteers involved in the mental health industry. Doctors who may not be adept at dealing with these matters are always able to refer to people who are.

You have an ill-informed opinion about the issue, and if you were to recognize the gravity of the situation you wouldn't be throwing your ridiculous opinion around like this. Do you really think people go into the mental health field just to make money? If they're that 'cash hungry', then surely there's easier ways to do it than going through 6+ years of training?.

I'd have to agree with Trog on this. There are defo a lot easier ways of making money. Counselors make eff all money. Not unless they're quacks aiming at the ladies who lunch brigade. This includes psychiatrists too BTW. They do extra training to make less money than they could have just by going into other specialties. I really don't think it's to do with money for the average mental health professional.

Not in this country anyway. In the US I'd be more dubious as the whole medical field is very money driven and even with the best will in the word it would be easy to get caught up in that. Even so, a lot of yank doctors do pro bono clinic work.

Where the money is made would be with the drug companies. Prozac or similar regularly shows up in the top ten perscription drugs per year. Even there, they do throw serious wonga at research. I am NOT one of those "oh noes, it's big pharma" neurotics, but still I do feel that the connections between drug companies and medicine are just a little too close for comfort.

Trog

Yep, drugs companies are bad. There's overprescription in the medical profession generally. That must mean that EVERY medical professional involved in the mental health area are compromised. Or... Maybe... they genuinely want to help you. That's probably it, actually.

You have a problem with global corporations who produce drugs. You are blaming local health professionals, the vast majority of whom have people's best interests at heart. I'm not saying people should neck every pill they're given, I'm saying people should seek help for their problems and talk to councilors. In severe cases it's necessary to seek medical help. You are advising them not to do so based on your assumption that all medical professionals are working in some form of evil plot to make drugs companies money.
You seem to have a very narrow view of reality. When you go to a doctor, you aren't going to Pfizer for medical help, you are going to a doctor, who is there to help you. Yeah, corporations are all about profit. This is true. Well done on that. What has it got to do with my local doctor/councilor who is there to help me?

The 'evidence' you provide does not suggest that people shouldn't seek help for their problems. So don't suggest they shouldn't.

Naikon

Trog wrote: »

The 'evidence' you provide does not suggest that people shouldn't seek help for their problems. So don't suggest they shouldn't.

I never said people should not seek help. Just be aware of the possible consequences of an official diagnosis. Skepticism should be exercised.

ImMaria

First off hello, my plan here is to be posting to the depression thread and this is my 1st time on these boards so I hope my question is in the right area! I have been suffering from depression for years now but I had really put myself in the "denial" mode as I really wasn't able to admit to myself nevermind to family or friends that I was depressed. Well here I am now after years where I can admit it and take action. I finally got the courage to go admit out loud and went and discussed how I was feeling with my doctor he suggested to take some time off work as if I kept working at my job without a break that I would probably end up draining myself. He had given me a prescription for some tablets a sick note for work and off I went. Well the sick note expired Monday so I went to see him again and he has extended my leave from work and put me on a different medication as I felt the one I was on wasn't really making feel any better. Obviously with all tablets it takes time for them to adjust to your body. I sent in my forms to Social Welfare for the illness benefit and received a letter saying I was eligible to receive it. The situation I'm in now is every time I go see my doctor it's 50 Euro plus the new tablets he put me on cost 42 Euro for a months supply and they take 2-6 weeks before your body may adjust to them and then of course take for as long as needed and when/if the day came where you felt you didn't need them anymore you would still need to continue taking them for months afterwards. I want to get better here but now that I'm out of work (with no sickness pay) I am receiving an illness benefit but once I paid the doctor and the tablets today the check I received was spent. Finally getting to a question here, I was looking for advice to see how you were affording to cope with the costs. I don't know how long I'll be out of work but would I be eligible for a medical card if every time I go visit my doctor he extends for leave from work? I feel I have taken a giant step here to be able to admit I have depression and I want to have it treated but now I don't know if I can afford too. This is really stressing me out and after paying 42 Euro for the tablets I'm afraid to take them as what if I can't afford the next months supply. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm so glad I found an area to discuss my illness and to know you understand how I'm feeling. I'm sorry that you have either been through this or are now dealing with it as in my mind it's not a very happy place to be. Some people just don't get it and don't understand it's an illness.

Thank you for reading my post.
Maria

Novella

ImMaria wrote: »

First off hello, my plan here is to be posting to the depression thread and this is my 1st time on these boards so I hope my question is in the right area! I have been suffering from depression for years now but I had really put myself in the "denial" mode as I really wasn't able to admit to myself nevermind to family or friends that I was depressed. Well here I am now after years where I can admit it and take action. I finally got the courage to go admit out loud and went and discussed how I was feeling with my doctor he suggested to take some time off work as if I kept working at my job without a break that I would probably end up draining myself. He had given me a prescription for some tablets a sick note for work and off I went. Well the sick note expired Monday so I went to see him again and he has extended my leave from work and put me on a different medication as I felt the one I was on wasn't really making feel any better. Obviously with all tablets it takes time for them to adjust to your body. I sent in my forms to Social Welfare for the illness benefit and received a letter saying I was eligible to receive it. The situation I'm in now is every time I go see my doctor it's 50 Euro plus the new tablets he put me on cost 42 Euro for a months supply and they take 2-6 weeks before your body may adjust to them and then of course take for as long as needed and when/if the day came where you felt you didn't need them anymore you would still need to continue taking them for months afterwards. I want to get better here but now that I'm out of work (with no sickness pay) I am receiving an illness benefit but once I paid the doctor and the tablets today the check I received was spent. Finally getting to a question here, I was looking for advice to see how you were affording to cope with the costs. I don't know how long I'll be out of work but would I be eligible for a medical card if every time I go visit my doctor he extends for leave from work? I feel I have taken a giant step here to be able to admit I have depression and I want to have it treated but now I don't know if I can afford too. This is really stressing me out and after paying 42 Euro for the tablets I'm afraid to take them as what if I can't afford the next months supply. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm so glad I found an area to discuss my illness and to know you understand how I'm feeling. I'm sorry that you have either been through this or are now dealing with it as in my mind it's not a very happy place to be. Some people just don't get it and don't understand it's an illness.

Thank you for reading my post.
Maria

Are you eligible for a medical card? If so, apply for one. This would cover the cost of your GP visit and your medication.

I think you could post in this forum (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=862) if it's advice you are looking for. That's Long Term Illness.

cleremy jarkson

http://blog.ted.com/2006/09/26/paradox_of_choi/

Rates of depression have exploded in the Western world in the last 40 or 50 years and I think this guy is onto something few people acknowledge.

ImMaria

Thank you for your reply Novella, since I don't know when I will be well enough to go back work, it could be a week, 2 maybe, or a month for example so in a case like that I don't know if I would be eligible for a medical card! I guess wouldnt hurt trying. I will repost in the forum that you suggested.

Novella

ImMaria wrote: »

Thank you for your reply Novella, since I don't know when I will be well enough to go back work, it could be a week, 2 maybe, or a month for example so in a case like that I don't know if I would be eligible for a medical card! I guess wouldnt hurt trying. I will repost in the forum that you suggested.

I don't really know too much about social welfare etc., but if you spoke to your Community Welfare Officer and explained your situation then perhaps you'd qualify for an Extraordinary Needs payment. Even if you didn't he/she would be able to help you out and let you know what is available to you at the moment. Best of luck.

stupidusername

I've been feeling like **** lately. my job isn't going so well because my memory and concentration are so bad as a result of the anti depressant i'm on. so i spoke to my doctor about it (new doc) and she told me I was wrong, that it wouldn't do that. just handed me another prescription. I told her i wanted to come off it and she wouldn't even entertain the idea. she said i should see a psychiatrist and i said i couldn't afford it. she said on the medical card i'll be entitled to it for free, and explained to her i already applied for it and they turned me down.

great health system we have here. help for all, until you look for it.

Novella

stupidusername wrote: »

I've been feeling like **** lately. my job isn't going so well because my memory and concentration are so bad as a result of the anti depressant i'm on. so i spoke to my doctor about it (new doc) and she told me I was wrong, that it wouldn't do that. just handed me another prescription. I told her i wanted to come off it and she wouldn't even entertain the idea. she said i should see a psychiatrist and i said i couldn't afford it. she said on the medical card i'll be entitled to it for free, and explained to her i already applied for it and they turned me down.

great health system we have here. help for all, until you look for it.

Can you not see a psychiatrist for free if you don't go private?

stupidusername

Novella wrote: »

Can you not see a psychiatrist for free if you don't go private?

but that's what i'm saying. my doctor put in a request for me before to see someone publicly, but they refused me, said i wasn't a priority

Novella

stupidusername wrote: »

but that's what i'm saying. my doctor put in a request for me before to see someone publicly, but they refused me, said i wasn't a priority

Sorry, I didn't get you the first time!
I've never heard of that happening before. Perhaps ask her for a second referral, or see a different doctor and get a referral from him/her. Or maybe just see if another doctor would change your prescription if you're not happy with it.